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I'm open to being convinced to change my mind here because I'm obviously in the minority. I don't understand why this is illegal. Yes, I agree it's incredibly c

I'm open to being convinced to change my mind here because I'm obviously in the minority. I don't understand why this is illegal. Yes, I agree it's incredibly creepy and weird and uncomfortable but there is no victim here. I'm cool with non-ai CSAM being illegal because it implies the existence of a real victim who was severely harmed and then continuously exploited. If it's all AI-generated though, then who's getting hurt? I don't think it should be illegal just because it's weird

skullone 3y ago
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- LewisVerstappen 3y ago
  > What other stuff are they up to? What actions would these people take to the next level? This isn't a hill to die on. These people are sick, antisocial depraved and likely predators. That’s literally not how any legal system works but ok. You don’t jail someone because you’re concerned of “what else they might be up to”.
  - skullone 3y ago
    Why are you deflecting away from people are are taking steps to further their fetish of minors?
- version_five 3y ago
  Is there a precedent for locking people up for being victimlessly deviant? Maybe drug use?
  - skullone 3y ago
    Why are you deflecting away from people are are taking steps to further their fetish of minors?
- darau1 3y ago
  > What other stuff are they up to? I see in another comment that he was found out while under investigation for something else entirely.
- hudon 3y ago
  To think the top-voted comment is one approving of child porn, and your comment is getting downvoted... we've truly come to a bad part of the slippery slope. To answer the grand-parent: the victims of this behavior are yourself and the society you live in. The answer to "what happens to my virtue and my relationships if I indulge in AI-generated child porn?" is not "nothing", and the society which tries to experiment with this will reap the whirlwind.
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    > the top-voted comment is one approving of child porn Fake child porn. Or do you think the real victim of child porn is morality, and the abused children are such an insignificant detail it's not even worth distinguishing between fake and real child porn?
    - hudon 3y ago
      Let me make it clearer then: Children are the ultimate victims of sexualizing children.
      - SenAnder 3y ago
        Wow, an even broader category! First it was putting raping children and filming it, and generating fake pixels, in the same bucket, and now you put both of those, and countless other things, under the vague description of "sexualizing children". Why is this bad? Well, let's look at how one might fight child abuse: find lots of CSAM online, put it through facial recognition and other digital forensics, try to find the children involved, or see if the IPs sharing it are plausibly involved with children, or use sting operations where police pretend to be children online. Then use regular policework to follow up. In the end you may end up saving a child from a very bad situation. Now how do you fight "sexualizing children"? I don't know, awareness campaigns? Go after porn artists drawing young characters? Make a classification office, such as in New Zealand, to decide which media gets censored... maybe eventually you'll catch someone actually abusing children, but your target is so vague, your efforts so unfocused, most of your manpower is wasted. To give an analogy: In a campaign to ban dumping toxic waste into rivers, you are the person saying "actually this is the fault of capitalism, we should fight that instead".
deepfriedbits 3y ago
Perhaps because it enables behavior that could eventually lead to a victim? Not a perfect answer and it doesn't mesh with how laws typically work, but this isn't a typical situation.
- LewisVerstappen 3y ago
  > Perhaps because it enables behavior that could eventually lead to a victim Are there any studies that prove this? To be honest, this sounds like the whole “violent video games cause more violence”, which has clearly been debunked.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/
- Art9681 3y ago
  If this were true we'd all be screwed with the things we're exposed to on the internet and just popular media in general. Video games, books, music, movies, the list goes on.
- serf 3y ago
  this is just another flavor of 'Doom enabled Columbine', but it's about such a taboo topic that the public somehow allows this kind of logic for this topic, but basically wholeheartedly ignored it with regards to video game violence. much like any digital experience, I have a hard time believing that it is somehow a practicing ground.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/
bitwize 3y ago
It's illegal because it's obscene material and South Korea doesn't have a First Amendment. Most countries don't have anywhere near the free speech protections that the USA has because most human societies have an interest in restricting what people can express, to a greater or lesser extent. The mores that gave rise to the First Amendment are NOT universal. As a comparison point, New Zealand has made it illegal to possess or distribute the anime Puni Puni Poemy for sexualized gags involving child characters; and owning lolicon manga can get you arrested on child porn charges in Canada. South Korea is not breaking new ground here, even among industrialized democracies.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  The poster asked why. Your answer amounts to "it's illegal because the law says so".
  - bitwize 3y ago
    That's... kind of how laws work. They don't actually need justification, except that they were duly passed.
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  This is illegal in America too.
- serf 3y ago
  >It's illegal because it's obscene material there is a lot of stuff that is obscene at face value but not disallowed by SK law. most depictions of gore and violence would be considered obscene by definition, yet 'realism shooters' are hugely popular and legally allowed most anywhere. it's illegal because it's illegal. I don't know enough about SK law reformation to tell you how that came about, but 'obscene' isn't the bar to judge from; plenty of legal obscenity exists most everywhere you look.
- SeanAnderson 3y ago
  re: Puni Nah. You're citing old data. "On 8 June 2021, the Classification Office re-classified Puni Puni Poemy R16 after granting a request from a member of the public to reconsider the classification of the series." Here's a screenshot of the current NZ classification board's website regarding it, 16+. https://i.imgur.com/aXHtsVd.png https://i.imgur.com/aXHtsVd.png Search for yourself: https://register.classificationoffice.govt.nz/ https://register.classificationoffice.govt.nz/ Here's a list of where it is/isn't legal to have lolicon. There's notable countries on both sides of the line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_pornography_depicting_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_porn...
seydor 3y ago
This has been debated in the past in the case of Second Life. afaik it was not ruled illegal but nevertheless secondlife bans it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/may/08/secondlife.web20 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/may/08/secondlif...
webmobdev 3y ago
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plonk 3y ago
Generative models are still trained with real data. That output isn't really synthetic, it contains patterns from existing images of victims. Making that legal to share doesn't sound right.
- onetimeuse92304 3y ago
  I don't think generative model requires an image of a victim to create an image of a victim. It could take an image of a nude non-victim child and transform it.
  - testtest888 3y ago
    No it can't, not without adding adult features that ruin it for pedophiles. You can't even use NSFW terms on the public Midjourney API - you need to get your own fine tuned model weights.
    - onetimeuse92304 3y ago
      But you can imagine proliferation of models where you can use NSFW terms or where you can cause the model to produce what you want without using NSFW terms. There is no technical reason the models could not in principle produce child porn from non-victim material. And if it is possible I bet somebody will do it. What I was responding was the argument about why AI-child porn should be illegal, and I think the argument is false. And please, don't construe it as me saying whether it should be legal or illegal. AFAIK, in most of the world, the depiciton of child sexual acts is illegal, regardless of the form. So a drawing or animation is also considered illegal, regardless of how it was produced.
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      > No it can't, not without adding adult features that ruin it for pedophiles The software was downloaded to his laptop, so I doubt the Midjourney restrictions are relevant here. It was probably your run-of-the-mill Stable Diffusion UI with one of the many pretrained models available online, trained on normal (legal) porn.
    - deleted 3y ago
camhart 3y ago
How can someone who likes viewing this look at a child on the street and not see them as a sexual object? The thoughts/fantasies you harbor while viewing images on a screen do not magically turn off when you step outside. It sticks with you and shapes how you view the world. It encourages the moral decay of our society and puts our kids (and the future of society) at risk.
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  Ah, ye olde moral decay! Won't somebody stop them from thinking of the children! Just contemplate the long, long history of moral decay panics and what they were panicking over. That's why that is no longer taken seriously.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
  The exact same thing could be said about all pornography. It is a very interesting discussion to have.
- lostNFound 3y ago
  For the same reason as has already been cited on this thread, that is the same argument as videogames violence etc. Do you not have any kinks? I have a fair amount and the ones I like in porn, I don’t like in real life. The ones I like in real life I don’t really like in porn. So, specifically concerning your first sentence, which in my opinion is intended as an argument, even though it’s just a question and doesn’t offer any backing, the answer is no.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    This is South Korea, you know where they popularize this with at one point less than 14 year old girls: https://www.koreaboo.com/lists/kpop-idols-youngest-currently-industry/ https://www.koreaboo.com/lists/kpop-idols-youngest-currently... (and she's now slightly over 14, and I do mean slightly. Long way to her 15th birthday) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2_5AZjAoMi0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2_5AZjAoMi0 (you might want to watch this one in incognito mode. I mean it's youtube, so it's "not sexual", but calling it SFW is lunacy. you'll see what I mean) At least she looks like she might be 16 ... In short: I feel like this society is long past the idea of sexualizing kids being perfectly OK. Obviously, I have kids, I'd like this guy to stop. But I do think, uh, could this whole young girls KPOP thing stop too, the whole thing? Obviously it is creating guys like this. In fact the guy is at least not using, and not hurting, real girls. Because yes, KPOP has lead to suicides by the "artist" girls, whereas this guy (correct me if I'm wrong) so far has not hurt a fly.
testtest888 3y ago
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- jeroenhd 3y ago
  > There are guides on the darknet that teach you how to fine-tune on CSAM and model weights can be found quite easily I can find no proof of this in the articles you linked. > You can't do that without fine-tuning on actual images of children. You definitely can. That's like saying "you can't generate images of a dog with wings without fine-tuning on actual images of dogs with wings". Any AI image generation algorithm generates realistic, life-like images. I'm not going to prove my point by generating this shit, there's not a doubt in my mind that you can generate these images without any fine-tuning.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    Even though it is possible to generate such images without training on real-life examples, do you deny if an AI were trained on those examples it would be better at this task? Combine that with the fact that it's hard (if not impossible) to tell after the fact whether an AI model has or has not been trained on any one specific image, and it seems like by allowing this you could be unintentionally creating a way to launder real-life CSAM through generative AI.
    - throwaway14050 3y ago
      > Even though it is possible to generate such images without training on real-life examples, do you deny if an AI were trained on those examples it would be better at this task? Nobody is denying that, but that's not the only way to make it better at this task. > seems like by allowing this you could be unintentionally creating a way to launder real-life CSAM through generative AI. There's no way to launder real-life CSAM. If there's a victim, it's a crime, regardless of whether the victim's images went through a ML model or not.
      - Ajedi32 3y ago
        > There's no way to launder real-life CSAM. If there's a victim, it's a crime The point is with an AI-generated image you don't necessarily know whether there's a victim or not. You can take an image that wouldn't exist without training data sourced from countless victims, and credibly claim everything is perfectly legal and that there wasn't any victim. That's the danger I'm referring to.
meheleventyone 3y ago
Pornography normalises sexual behaviour that would otherwise be less prevalent. Totally cool amongst consenting adults. It’s a genuine concern for parents though that kids get a lot of ideas about sex from porn. Making any kind of child porn even without harming children normalises sexual abuse.
- leptons 3y ago
  If you think that's true then you probably also believe that violent video games lead to violent behavior, but that is also something that we have not seen but some people like to feel is true. "Think of the children" has been abused so many times to try to restrict rights for no actual benefit.
  - Kretinsky 3y ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant." How do you explain the fact that facial ejaculation, which has been invented by porn, is now mainstream, if not due to porn being itself mainstream?
    - leptons 3y ago
      >How do you explain the fact that facial ejaculation, which has been invented by porn, is now mainstream, if not due to porn being itself mainstream? This was not "invented by porn" and to suggest so is beyond ridiculous. >Predating the modern age of pornography, facials were described in literature. As an example, the French aristocrat Marquis de Sade wrote about performing facials in his work The 120 Days of Sodom, written in 1785. One passage of the novel reads "… I show them my prick, then what do you suppose I do? I squirt the fuck in their face… That's my passion my child, I have no other… and you're about to behold it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_(sexual_act) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_(sexual_act) >"Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant." Most women would be lucky to have a partner that learned a few techniques to please them in bed, it doesn't really matter where it came from. Or they could just have missionary only for the rest of their lives?
kaycey2022 3y ago
> The images were not distributed, and have been confiscated by police. I was actually happy this guy got arrested and sentenced until I read the images were not even distributed. Now I'm conflicted about it, and lean towards this being repressive and wrong. I mean, how did the cops even find out about this? Seems like a privacy violation has occurred in order for the arrest to happen in the first place.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  > I mean, how did the cops even find out about this? In most cases, like many other pedo arrests: by going through his devices for a separate criminal concern. Maybe he was caught downloading CSAM, maybe he was being investigated for fraud, who knows.
nosefurhairdo 3y ago
Imagine an impossible study of 1000 pedophiles: half get access to AI-generated CP, the other half don't. If the first half was found more likely to engage in sex crimes with minors, that would be a good reason for this to be illegal IMO. Of course we can't run that study, so it comes down to a judgement call. I am perhaps more conservative in nature and feel that a government which allows AI-generated CP is sending a disturbing message. However, I recognize the difficulty in assessing which policy would actually have the best (or rather least bad) outcome, so I don't hold this view strongly.
- callalex 3y ago
  > conservative in nature and feel that a government which allows One of us misunderstands what “conservative” means here. I was under the impression that it meant the government shouldn’t meddle in private affairs if it doesn’t have to.
  - leptons 3y ago
    Modern conservatism has no such ideology. They may say those words when they think it will win them votes, but they often do the exact opposite.
  - api 3y ago
    Historically conservatives support the maintenance of tradition and social hierarchies including by state power. Libertarians being called conservatives is a peculiar US Cold War phenomenon stemming from the fact that both found themselves opposing Marxism. Libertarians really belong on the left. Todays National Conservative movement is largely about breaking this alliance and rejecting small government conservatism/libertarianism in favor of something closer to Viktor Orban. Ron DeSantis is an example.
  - nosefurhairdo 3y ago
    I meant conservative as opposed to classical liberalism, the latter ideology generally shunning social policies. I typically favor liberalism from an analytical perspective of which ideology yields better outcomes, but perhaps the emotional weight of this particular topic makes it hard for me concede.
hombre_fatal 3y ago
Since it’s completely fake, they should add the disclaimer that alt.sex.stories users sometimes did: All characters depicted are aliens 1000+ human years old that only appear human-like. But I agree. Let’s stick to attacking real crime instead of fictional content whether porn or first person shooters. Just sounds like moral panic over Doom rehashed.
chasil 3y ago
It appears that the Latin legal term for this reasoning is malum prohibitum. It does violate the principle of "where there is no victim, there is no crime" (which seems to derive from malum in se). Perhaps modern reasoning might be that becoming desensitized and attracted to such imagery would lead to the same in the realm of real action. "'Public welfare offenses' are a subset of malum prohibitum offenses as they are typically regulatory in nature and often 'result in no direct or immediate injury to person or property but merely create the danger or probability of it which the law seeks to minimize.' "...Examples of offenses that are generally regarded as mala prohibita include disorderly conduct, gambling, possession of a controlled substance, prostitution, public intoxication, resisting arrest, speeding, and vagrancy." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum

skullone 3y ago

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LewisVerstappen 3y ago
> What other stuff are they up to? What actions would these people take to the next level? This isn't a hill to die on. These people are sick, antisocial depraved and likely predators. That’s literally not how any legal system works but ok. You don’t jail someone because you’re concerned of “what else they might be up to”.
- skullone 3y ago
  Why are you deflecting away from people are are taking steps to further their fetish of minors?
version_five 3y ago
Is there a precedent for locking people up for being victimlessly deviant? Maybe drug use?
- skullone 3y ago
  Why are you deflecting away from people are are taking steps to further their fetish of minors?
darau1 3y ago
> What other stuff are they up to? I see in another comment that he was found out while under investigation for something else entirely.
hudon 3y ago
To think the top-voted comment is one approving of child porn, and your comment is getting downvoted... we've truly come to a bad part of the slippery slope. To answer the grand-parent: the victims of this behavior are yourself and the society you live in. The answer to "what happens to my virtue and my relationships if I indulge in AI-generated child porn?" is not "nothing", and the society which tries to experiment with this will reap the whirlwind.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  > the top-voted comment is one approving of child porn Fake child porn. Or do you think the real victim of child porn is morality, and the abused children are such an insignificant detail it's not even worth distinguishing between fake and real child porn?
  - hudon 3y ago
    Let me make it clearer then: Children are the ultimate victims of sexualizing children.
    - SenAnder 3y ago
      Wow, an even broader category! First it was putting raping children and filming it, and generating fake pixels, in the same bucket, and now you put both of those, and countless other things, under the vague description of "sexualizing children". Why is this bad? Well, let's look at how one might fight child abuse: find lots of CSAM online, put it through facial recognition and other digital forensics, try to find the children involved, or see if the IPs sharing it are plausibly involved with children, or use sting operations where police pretend to be children online. Then use regular policework to follow up. In the end you may end up saving a child from a very bad situation. Now how do you fight "sexualizing children"? I don't know, awareness campaigns? Go after porn artists drawing young characters? Make a classification office, such as in New Zealand, to decide which media gets censored... maybe eventually you'll catch someone actually abusing children, but your target is so vague, your efforts so unfocused, most of your manpower is wasted. To give an analogy: In a campaign to ban dumping toxic waste into rivers, you are the person saying "actually this is the fault of capitalism, we should fight that instead".

deepfriedbits 3y ago

Perhaps because it enables behavior that could eventually lead to a victim? Not a perfect answer and it doesn't mesh with how laws typically work, but this isn't a typical situation.

LewisVerstappen 3y ago
> Perhaps because it enables behavior that could eventually lead to a victim Are there any studies that prove this? To be honest, this sounds like the whole “violent video games cause more violence”, which has clearly been debunked.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/
Art9681 3y ago
If this were true we'd all be screwed with the things we're exposed to on the internet and just popular media in general. Video games, books, music, movies, the list goes on.
serf 3y ago
this is just another flavor of 'Doom enabled Columbine', but it's about such a taboo topic that the public somehow allows this kind of logic for this topic, but basically wholeheartedly ignored it with regards to video game violence. much like any digital experience, I have a hard time believing that it is somehow a practicing ground.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/

bitwize 3y ago

It's illegal because it's obscene material and South Korea doesn't have a First Amendment. Most countries don't have anywhere near the free speech protections that the USA has because most human societies have an interest in restricting what people can express, to a greater or lesser extent. The mores that gave rise to the First Amendment are NOT universal. As a comparison point, New Zealand has made it illegal to possess or distribute the anime Puni Puni Poemy for sexualized gags involving child characters; and owning lolicon manga can get you arrested on child porn charges in Canada. South Korea is not breaking new ground here, even among industrialized democracies.

SenAnder 3y ago
The poster asked why. Your answer amounts to "it's illegal because the law says so".
- bitwize 3y ago
  That's... kind of how laws work. They don't actually need justification, except that they were duly passed.
nickthegreek 3y ago
This is illegal in America too.
serf 3y ago
>It's illegal because it's obscene material there is a lot of stuff that is obscene at face value but not disallowed by SK law. most depictions of gore and violence would be considered obscene by definition, yet 'realism shooters' are hugely popular and legally allowed most anywhere. it's illegal because it's illegal. I don't know enough about SK law reformation to tell you how that came about, but 'obscene' isn't the bar to judge from; plenty of legal obscenity exists most everywhere you look.
SeanAnderson 3y ago
re: Puni Nah. You're citing old data. "On 8 June 2021, the Classification Office re-classified Puni Puni Poemy R16 after granting a request from a member of the public to reconsider the classification of the series." Here's a screenshot of the current NZ classification board's website regarding it, 16+. https://i.imgur.com/aXHtsVd.png https://i.imgur.com/aXHtsVd.png Search for yourself: https://register.classificationoffice.govt.nz/ https://register.classificationoffice.govt.nz/ Here's a list of where it is/isn't legal to have lolicon. There's notable countries on both sides of the line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_pornography_depicting_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_porn...

seydor 3y ago

This has been debated in the past in the case of Second Life. afaik it was not ruled illegal but nevertheless secondlife bans it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/may/08/secondlife.web20 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/may/08/secondlif...

webmobdev 3y ago

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plonk 3y ago

Generative models are still trained with real data. That output isn't really synthetic, it contains patterns from existing images of victims. Making that legal to share doesn't sound right.

onetimeuse92304 3y ago
I don't think generative model requires an image of a victim to create an image of a victim. It could take an image of a nude non-victim child and transform it.
- testtest888 3y ago
  No it can't, not without adding adult features that ruin it for pedophiles. You can't even use NSFW terms on the public Midjourney API - you need to get your own fine tuned model weights.
  - onetimeuse92304 3y ago
    But you can imagine proliferation of models where you can use NSFW terms or where you can cause the model to produce what you want without using NSFW terms. There is no technical reason the models could not in principle produce child porn from non-victim material. And if it is possible I bet somebody will do it. What I was responding was the argument about why AI-child porn should be illegal, and I think the argument is false. And please, don't construe it as me saying whether it should be legal or illegal. AFAIK, in most of the world, the depiciton of child sexual acts is illegal, regardless of the form. So a drawing or animation is also considered illegal, regardless of how it was produced.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    > No it can't, not without adding adult features that ruin it for pedophiles The software was downloaded to his laptop, so I doubt the Midjourney restrictions are relevant here. It was probably your run-of-the-mill Stable Diffusion UI with one of the many pretrained models available online, trained on normal (legal) porn.
  - deleted 3y ago

camhart 3y ago

How can someone who likes viewing this look at a child on the street and not see them as a sexual object? The thoughts/fantasies you harbor while viewing images on a screen do not magically turn off when you step outside. It sticks with you and shapes how you view the world. It encourages the moral decay of our society and puts our kids (and the future of society) at risk.

at_a_remove 3y ago
Ah, ye olde moral decay! Won't somebody stop them from thinking of the children! Just contemplate the long, long history of moral decay panics and what they were panicking over. That's why that is no longer taken seriously.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
The exact same thing could be said about all pornography. It is a very interesting discussion to have.
lostNFound 3y ago
For the same reason as has already been cited on this thread, that is the same argument as videogames violence etc. Do you not have any kinks? I have a fair amount and the ones I like in porn, I don’t like in real life. The ones I like in real life I don’t really like in porn. So, specifically concerning your first sentence, which in my opinion is intended as an argument, even though it’s just a question and doesn’t offer any backing, the answer is no.
- candiodari 3y ago
  This is South Korea, you know where they popularize this with at one point less than 14 year old girls: https://www.koreaboo.com/lists/kpop-idols-youngest-currently-industry/ https://www.koreaboo.com/lists/kpop-idols-youngest-currently... (and she's now slightly over 14, and I do mean slightly. Long way to her 15th birthday) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2_5AZjAoMi0 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2_5AZjAoMi0 (you might want to watch this one in incognito mode. I mean it's youtube, so it's "not sexual", but calling it SFW is lunacy. you'll see what I mean) At least she looks like she might be 16 ... In short: I feel like this society is long past the idea of sexualizing kids being perfectly OK. Obviously, I have kids, I'd like this guy to stop. But I do think, uh, could this whole young girls KPOP thing stop too, the whole thing? Obviously it is creating guys like this. In fact the guy is at least not using, and not hurting, real girls. Because yes, KPOP has lead to suicides by the "artist" girls, whereas this guy (correct me if I'm wrong) so far has not hurt a fly.

testtest888 3y ago

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jeroenhd 3y ago
> There are guides on the darknet that teach you how to fine-tune on CSAM and model weights can be found quite easily I can find no proof of this in the articles you linked. > You can't do that without fine-tuning on actual images of children. You definitely can. That's like saying "you can't generate images of a dog with wings without fine-tuning on actual images of dogs with wings". Any AI image generation algorithm generates realistic, life-like images. I'm not going to prove my point by generating this shit, there's not a doubt in my mind that you can generate these images without any fine-tuning.
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  Even though it is possible to generate such images without training on real-life examples, do you deny if an AI were trained on those examples it would be better at this task? Combine that with the fact that it's hard (if not impossible) to tell after the fact whether an AI model has or has not been trained on any one specific image, and it seems like by allowing this you could be unintentionally creating a way to launder real-life CSAM through generative AI.
  - throwaway14050 3y ago
    > Even though it is possible to generate such images without training on real-life examples, do you deny if an AI were trained on those examples it would be better at this task? Nobody is denying that, but that's not the only way to make it better at this task. > seems like by allowing this you could be unintentionally creating a way to launder real-life CSAM through generative AI. There's no way to launder real-life CSAM. If there's a victim, it's a crime, regardless of whether the victim's images went through a ML model or not.
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      > There's no way to launder real-life CSAM. If there's a victim, it's a crime The point is with an AI-generated image you don't necessarily know whether there's a victim or not. You can take an image that wouldn't exist without training data sourced from countless victims, and credibly claim everything is perfectly legal and that there wasn't any victim. That's the danger I'm referring to.

meheleventyone 3y ago

Pornography normalises sexual behaviour that would otherwise be less prevalent. Totally cool amongst consenting adults. It’s a genuine concern for parents though that kids get a lot of ideas about sex from porn. Making any kind of child porn even without harming children normalises sexual abuse.

leptons 3y ago
If you think that's true then you probably also believe that violent video games lead to violent behavior, but that is also something that we have not seen but some people like to feel is true. "Think of the children" has been abused so many times to try to restrict rights for no actual benefit.
- Kretinsky 3y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/ "Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant." How do you explain the fact that facial ejaculation, which has been invented by porn, is now mainstream, if not due to porn being itself mainstream?
  - leptons 3y ago
    >How do you explain the fact that facial ejaculation, which has been invented by porn, is now mainstream, if not due to porn being itself mainstream? This was not "invented by porn" and to suggest so is beyond ridiculous. >Predating the modern age of pornography, facials were described in literature. As an example, the French aristocrat Marquis de Sade wrote about performing facials in his work The 120 Days of Sodom, written in 1785. One passage of the novel reads "… I show them my prick, then what do you suppose I do? I squirt the fuck in their face… That's my passion my child, I have no other… and you're about to behold it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_(sexual_act) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_(sexual_act) >"Lifetime pornography use was reported by most respondents. After adjusting for age, age at first porn exposure, and current relationship status, the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant." Most women would be lucky to have a partner that learned a few techniques to please them in bed, it doesn't really matter where it came from. Or they could just have missionary only for the rest of their lives?

kaycey2022 3y ago

> The images were not distributed, and have been confiscated by police. I was actually happy this guy got arrested and sentenced until I read the images were not even distributed. Now I'm conflicted about it, and lean towards this being repressive and wrong. I mean, how did the cops even find out about this? Seems like a privacy violation has occurred in order for the arrest to happen in the first place.

jeroenhd 3y ago
> I mean, how did the cops even find out about this? In most cases, like many other pedo arrests: by going through his devices for a separate criminal concern. Maybe he was caught downloading CSAM, maybe he was being investigated for fraud, who knows.

nosefurhairdo 3y ago

Imagine an impossible study of 1000 pedophiles: half get access to AI-generated CP, the other half don't. If the first half was found more likely to engage in sex crimes with minors, that would be a good reason for this to be illegal IMO. Of course we can't run that study, so it comes down to a judgement call. I am perhaps more conservative in nature and feel that a government which allows AI-generated CP is sending a disturbing message. However, I recognize the difficulty in assessing which policy would actually have the best (or rather least bad) outcome, so I don't hold this view strongly.

callalex 3y ago
> conservative in nature and feel that a government which allows One of us misunderstands what “conservative” means here. I was under the impression that it meant the government shouldn’t meddle in private affairs if it doesn’t have to.
- leptons 3y ago
  Modern conservatism has no such ideology. They may say those words when they think it will win them votes, but they often do the exact opposite.
- api 3y ago
  Historically conservatives support the maintenance of tradition and social hierarchies including by state power. Libertarians being called conservatives is a peculiar US Cold War phenomenon stemming from the fact that both found themselves opposing Marxism. Libertarians really belong on the left. Todays National Conservative movement is largely about breaking this alliance and rejecting small government conservatism/libertarianism in favor of something closer to Viktor Orban. Ron DeSantis is an example.
- nosefurhairdo 3y ago
  I meant conservative as opposed to classical liberalism, the latter ideology generally shunning social policies. I typically favor liberalism from an analytical perspective of which ideology yields better outcomes, but perhaps the emotional weight of this particular topic makes it hard for me concede.

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Since it’s completely fake, they should add the disclaimer that alt.sex.stories users sometimes did: All characters depicted are aliens 1000+ human years old that only appear human-like. But I agree. Let’s stick to attacking real crime instead of fictional content whether porn or first person shooters. Just sounds like moral panic over Doom rehashed.

chasil 3y ago

It appears that the Latin legal term for this reasoning is malum prohibitum. It does violate the principle of "where there is no victim, there is no crime" (which seems to derive from malum in se). Perhaps modern reasoning might be that becoming desensitized and attracted to such imagery would lead to the same in the realm of real action. "'Public welfare offenses' are a subset of malum prohibitum offenses as they are typically regulatory in nature and often 'result in no direct or immediate injury to person or property but merely create the danger or probability of it which the law seeks to minimize.' "...Examples of offenses that are generally regarded as mala prohibita include disorderly conduct, gambling, possession of a controlled substance, prostitution, public intoxication, resisting arrest, speeding, and vagrancy." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum