7 ms·

Between "enshrined in-protocol account abstraction", "pre-verification gas", "liquid staking" and "single-slot finality", this style of blog writing is not easy

Between "enshrined in-protocol account abstraction", "pre-verification gas", "liquid staking" and "single-slot finality", this style of blog writing is not easy to follow along. The author would do well to minimise jargon and elaborate the core tenets in smaller chunks, rather than the wall of technical terms it currently is presented as.

hbbio 3y ago
There is always jargon somewhere and blockchains are complex systems: As it is a "distributed giant computer protocol" there are always debate on enshrined in protocol (as built-in vs implemented with the existing primitives), account abstraction being the hot topic right now as a way to simplify the UX for users without wallets, etc. I am really not sure it would be better without jargon as each of these terms has a precise meaning.
- dleeftink 3y ago
  I'm okay with jargon, but the ratio can be off sometimes. When the ratio becomes too skewed, there's risk of side-fumbling or even encabuloration [0]. [0]: https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w
ToucanLoucan 3y ago
Alternative view: No one who isn't already in on the Ethereum c̶o̶m̶m̶u̶n̶i̶t̶y̶ scam gives a shit about this. Besides-which: All of crypto use obfuscated technical and communal terms all through all their material, documentation and writing. Some of this is because the underlying tech is very complicated and the discussions of it's politics are also by virtue of that, some of it is because they like their technobabble because it makes it seem more interesting than it actually is and lends it authority from people who don't know any better, who are their best new investors. Edits: I swear you could strike text on here but it seems I can't figure out how. Edited edit: thank you kind stranger
- kylebenzle 3y ago
  I̶t̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'t̶, b̶u̶t̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶ s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶ u̶n̶i̶c̶o̶d̶e̶ t̶e̶x̶t̶, s̶o̶ u̶s̶e̶ j̶u̶s̶t̶ a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ s̶i̶t̶e̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶n̶ c̶o̶p̶y̶-̶p̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶. :̶)̶ [1] https://capitalizemytitle.com/strikethrough-text-generator/ https://capitalizemytitle.com/strikethrough-text-generator/
- miki123211 3y ago
  > All of crypto use obfuscated technical and communal terms all through all their material I see this criticism often, usually leveled at either crypto or AI, even though literally everybody else does this too. Try reading a random excerpt of Intel's X86 architecture manual, the C++ language specification, or even a random physics paper off arXiv. If you're not well-versed in any of these subjects, you will probably understand very little.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    People aren't trying to turn the C++ programming language into a financial system with wide adoption.
    - miki123211 3y ago
      No, but how many C++ programmers could actually understand its spec? How many people who own an Intel processor could actually understand its manual? How many people who live in your country could actually understand its tax code? Could you, off the top of your head, explain where the bank where you hold your primary bank account keeps its assets, and how likely this particular combination of assets is likely to lead to a bankruptcy, when compared with other banks? How many people could actually understand the relevant financial statements that answer this question? Same goes for retirement funds and their investment portfolios, insurance policies, election laws, or even phone / internet contracts. If you think that all systems need (or even should) be understandable before being widely deployed, I'd argue crypto is still simpler than what we already have.
      - 3y ago
kalverra 3y ago
Vitalik's audience is primarily people who are deep into blockchains and Ethereum. Plenty of good content is out there for freshman level info, he's more for your senior year.
- dleeftink 3y ago
  That's fair, but I wonder if it isn't precisely the figureheads spearheading these technologies that should communicate most clearly and concisely, especially to reach those 'less in the know'.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    Agreed. For all it's problems, ensuring that researchers are also teachers is something that academia got right.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    He does that all the time, but that's not what the audience of this particular article wants or needs. Technical discussions are ok and are important and assuming a level of competence for those discussions as table stakes to participate is necessary sometimes.
    - dleeftink 3y ago
      On an open web however, audiences are pluralistic, and even within technical circles there's a fine line between elucidation and obfuscation. As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm okay with jargon, but it can be difficult to get the dosage right.
  - kalverra 3y ago
    He does do that from time to time. Most of his stuff is pretty deep in the weeds and decision trees of specific Ethereum implementations (e.g. this article), but occasionally he'll have one that's more legible to a wider audience. I think his essay on blockchain voting is a great example. https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/05/25/voting2.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/05/25/voting2.html
fallat 3y ago
I think the article is aimed at more experienced Ethereum users. Unfortunately these are real things on Ethereum where only the most involved understand it. IMO, Ethereum is actually doing a fantastic job at moving itself forward. The issue with Bitcoin has always been the lack of innovation to overcome its fundamental problems. Ethereum isn't afraid to do what needs to be done to become adopted. Yes, the technology stack is INSANE. As someone who runs a plain text only website, thinks about using Commodore 64s to access the Internet, etc, I can completely ignore the complexity because they are solving an extremely difficult problem. My hope is when these problems are solved, the teaching and mental model around them will become vastly simplified. Until then, they're in research mode.
- andrepd 3y ago
  >As someone who runs a plain text only website, thinks about using Commodore 64s to access the Internet Blog post? o.O
- beefield 3y ago
  > IMO, Ethereum is actually doing a fantastic job at moving itself forward. The issue with Bitcoin has always been the lack of innovation to overcome its fundamental problems. Ethereum isn't afraid to do what needs to be done to become adopted. My occasional lazy-ass status check: what's the status of non-crypto-collateralized loans at the moment? Can I get a crypto loan to buy a car or house nowadays without having to post crypto as collateral? (If the answer is yes, I'd be curious to know what aspect of present day crypto makes it competitive to establishment finance.)
  - michaelscott 3y ago
    I'm not sure I understand what you want; you want to get crypto through a loan to buy a car, but you want to post eg. fiat as collateral?
    - beefield 3y ago
      I can walk to a bank and have a loan without any collateral. If I put a car or a house or a company as a collateral, I get a discount in the interest rate. Can I do that with crypto? To be clear, those products, lending money without fiat collateral are much, much more significant feature of modern financial system than payment settlement. Until crypto solves those somehow, any comparison is meaningless. Like trying to compare wheels with cars.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
erikpukinskis 3y ago
I feel the opposite way. Like you, I don’t understand most of these terms. But I love reading Vitalik’s posts because it feels like a glimpse into how computer scientists will talk about code in the distant future. To me, Vitalik’s brain is like 50 years ahead of the rest of us. I also trust him to speak as plainly and concisely as possible. I get the same rush from reading these posts as watching a great sci-fi film, except it’s not fiction. It’s (mostly) real.
- dleeftink 3y ago
  I too, am a sucker for a good technisized metaphor or analogy, and do not wish for any technical language to vanish or stall. However, when scifi-esque terms flow over into the real world and affect the livelihoods of real people, jargon only benefits the few who have the luxury to dabble in its lexicon. Why not make it as accessible by default?
- barneygale 3y ago
  Parasocial technology fetishism. Gross.
  - oreally 3y ago
    Yea it's typical idolism, a great flaw of humanity. Vitalik has a young man's mind and will make the young man's mistakes.
- lxgr 3y ago
  I feel like you're actually describing something important here, socially/psychologically, about the appeal of Ethereum and related crypto technologies. There's a certain appeal to incredibly complex systems, at least to some people, and there can be joy in going so deep in a complex system that you and your peers are creating, you get to forget about any painful interaction points with the larger world in which it exists and by which it will still always be constrained. Without understanding this emotion and motivation, it can be baffling to see where the ideas of crypto take people, because at face value, it just doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes.
- 3y ago

hbbio 3y ago

There is always jargon somewhere and blockchains are complex systems: As it is a "distributed giant computer protocol" there are always debate on enshrined in protocol (as built-in vs implemented with the existing primitives), account abstraction being the hot topic right now as a way to simplify the UX for users without wallets, etc. I am really not sure it would be better without jargon as each of these terms has a precise meaning.

dleeftink 3y ago
I'm okay with jargon, but the ratio can be off sometimes. When the ratio becomes too skewed, there's risk of side-fumbling or even encabuloration [0]. [0]: https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w

ToucanLoucan 3y ago

Alternative view: No one who isn't already in on the Ethereum c̶o̶m̶m̶u̶n̶i̶t̶y̶ scam gives a shit about this. Besides-which: All of crypto use obfuscated technical and communal terms all through all their material, documentation and writing. Some of this is because the underlying tech is very complicated and the discussions of it's politics are also by virtue of that, some of it is because they like their technobabble because it makes it seem more interesting than it actually is and lends it authority from people who don't know any better, who are their best new investors. Edits: I swear you could strike text on here but it seems I can't figure out how. Edited edit: thank you kind stranger

kylebenzle 3y ago
I̶t̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'t̶, b̶u̶t̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶ s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶ u̶n̶i̶c̶o̶d̶e̶ t̶e̶x̶t̶, s̶o̶ u̶s̶e̶ j̶u̶s̶t̶ a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ s̶i̶t̶e̶ a̶n̶d̶ t̶h̶e̶n̶ c̶o̶p̶y̶-̶p̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶ h̶e̶r̶e̶. :̶)̶ [1] https://capitalizemytitle.com/strikethrough-text-generator/ https://capitalizemytitle.com/strikethrough-text-generator/
miki123211 3y ago
> All of crypto use obfuscated technical and communal terms all through all their material I see this criticism often, usually leveled at either crypto or AI, even though literally everybody else does this too. Try reading a random excerpt of Intel's X86 architecture manual, the C++ language specification, or even a random physics paper off arXiv. If you're not well-versed in any of these subjects, you will probably understand very little.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  People aren't trying to turn the C++ programming language into a financial system with wide adoption.
  - miki123211 3y ago
    No, but how many C++ programmers could actually understand its spec? How many people who own an Intel processor could actually understand its manual? How many people who live in your country could actually understand its tax code? Could you, off the top of your head, explain where the bank where you hold your primary bank account keeps its assets, and how likely this particular combination of assets is likely to lead to a bankruptcy, when compared with other banks? How many people could actually understand the relevant financial statements that answer this question? Same goes for retirement funds and their investment portfolios, insurance policies, election laws, or even phone / internet contracts. If you think that all systems need (or even should) be understandable before being widely deployed, I'd argue crypto is still simpler than what we already have.
    - 3y ago

kalverra 3y ago

Vitalik's audience is primarily people who are deep into blockchains and Ethereum. Plenty of good content is out there for freshman level info, he's more for your senior year.

dleeftink 3y ago
That's fair, but I wonder if it isn't precisely the figureheads spearheading these technologies that should communicate most clearly and concisely, especially to reach those 'less in the know'.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  Agreed. For all it's problems, ensuring that researchers are also teachers is something that academia got right.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  He does that all the time, but that's not what the audience of this particular article wants or needs. Technical discussions are ok and are important and assuming a level of competence for those discussions as table stakes to participate is necessary sometimes.
  - dleeftink 3y ago
    On an open web however, audiences are pluralistic, and even within technical circles there's a fine line between elucidation and obfuscation. As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm okay with jargon, but it can be difficult to get the dosage right.
- kalverra 3y ago
  He does do that from time to time. Most of his stuff is pretty deep in the weeds and decision trees of specific Ethereum implementations (e.g. this article), but occasionally he'll have one that's more legible to a wider audience. I think his essay on blockchain voting is a great example. https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/05/25/voting2.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/05/25/voting2.html

fallat 3y ago

I think the article is aimed at more experienced Ethereum users. Unfortunately these are real things on Ethereum where only the most involved understand it. IMO, Ethereum is actually doing a fantastic job at moving itself forward. The issue with Bitcoin has always been the lack of innovation to overcome its fundamental problems. Ethereum isn't afraid to do what needs to be done to become adopted. Yes, the technology stack is INSANE. As someone who runs a plain text only website, thinks about using Commodore 64s to access the Internet, etc, I can completely ignore the complexity because they are solving an extremely difficult problem. My hope is when these problems are solved, the teaching and mental model around them will become vastly simplified. Until then, they're in research mode.

andrepd 3y ago
>As someone who runs a plain text only website, thinks about using Commodore 64s to access the Internet Blog post? o.O
beefield 3y ago
> IMO, Ethereum is actually doing a fantastic job at moving itself forward. The issue with Bitcoin has always been the lack of innovation to overcome its fundamental problems. Ethereum isn't afraid to do what needs to be done to become adopted. My occasional lazy-ass status check: what's the status of non-crypto-collateralized loans at the moment? Can I get a crypto loan to buy a car or house nowadays without having to post crypto as collateral? (If the answer is yes, I'd be curious to know what aspect of present day crypto makes it competitive to establishment finance.)
- michaelscott 3y ago
  I'm not sure I understand what you want; you want to get crypto through a loan to buy a car, but you want to post eg. fiat as collateral?
  - beefield 3y ago
    I can walk to a bank and have a loan without any collateral. If I put a car or a house or a company as a collateral, I get a discount in the interest rate. Can I do that with crypto? To be clear, those products, lending money without fiat collateral are much, much more significant feature of modern financial system than payment settlement. Until crypto solves those somehow, any comparison is meaningless. Like trying to compare wheels with cars.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

erikpukinskis 3y ago

I feel the opposite way. Like you, I don’t understand most of these terms. But I love reading Vitalik’s posts because it feels like a glimpse into how computer scientists will talk about code in the distant future. To me, Vitalik’s brain is like 50 years ahead of the rest of us. I also trust him to speak as plainly and concisely as possible. I get the same rush from reading these posts as watching a great sci-fi film, except it’s not fiction. It’s (mostly) real.

dleeftink 3y ago
I too, am a sucker for a good technisized metaphor or analogy, and do not wish for any technical language to vanish or stall. However, when scifi-esque terms flow over into the real world and affect the livelihoods of real people, jargon only benefits the few who have the luxury to dabble in its lexicon. Why not make it as accessible by default?
barneygale 3y ago
Parasocial technology fetishism. Gross.
- oreally 3y ago
  Yea it's typical idolism, a great flaw of humanity. Vitalik has a young man's mind and will make the young man's mistakes.
lxgr 3y ago
I feel like you're actually describing something important here, socially/psychologically, about the appeal of Ethereum and related crypto technologies. There's a certain appeal to incredibly complex systems, at least to some people, and there can be joy in going so deep in a complex system that you and your peers are creating, you get to forget about any painful interaction points with the larger world in which it exists and by which it will still always be constrained. Without understanding this emotion and motivation, it can be baffling to see where the ideas of crypto take people, because at face value, it just doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes.
3y ago