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Eye comfort a priority for all-in-one desktop PC with color E Ink display
- chunk_waffle 3y agoI really want one of these eink monitors but the price has to come down. I totally see the appeal and have lots of use cases in mind but I just can't justify the cost yet.
- gwbas1c 3y agoI anticipate that using the mouse will be... awkward. In the demo video on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44sawX5WIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44sawX5WIE, it's very clear that the frame rate is... low. If I don't set up my display correctly, it'll run at 30fps. (Large 4k TV that accepts HDMI.) It's very hard to use a mouse at that refresh rate. Scrolling web sites is annoying. I just lowered the refresh rate to 24fps and the mouse is noticeably janky.
- irjustin 3y agoMan I want this to be real so bad. I love e-ink and if I can have a monitor JUST for VSCode/programming, I'm sold. The guy scrolling CNN vertically looks like a scam, but the lady sitting reading CNN horizontally looks much more real. There's some ghosting in the lady's scroll as one would expect. Guessing like 20 Hz? Def want to see a longer, "real" video across a wider range of stuff. I'm highly skeptical this will produce, so I'll wait after kickstarter for this for sure.
- Inviz 3y agoWhy is vertical monitor a scam? i'm reading this now on 27inch apple studio oriented vertically. It's really good as code editor screen
- callalex 3y agoThey mean that the frame rate/responsiveness of that particular video shot is faked.
- quincepie 3y agopersonally I think it's because it feels like that both the screen and the Iphone screens are edited on. Also, it feels like the finger flick scroll is too instant, I believe flick scrolling in Safari does not stop instantly but slowly slows down until it stops (unless it can be disabled). I could totally be wrong though.
- irjustin 3y agoother sibling comments got it, the video/gif of the vertically orientation looks like it's photoshopped/video edited; faked. there's no scroll lag between devices, nor image ghosting.
- esskay 3y agoThey're talking about an e-ink being capable of that level of performance. You'd expect ghosting and noticable artifacts on the screen. E-ink is super slow.
- PeterStuer 3y agoIt is 12 Hz, not 20 Hz.
- mafuyu 3y agoBigme has been a player in the niche eink tablet market for a while now, so it's likely real, or at least not a complete scam. The fake marketing videos in the Kickstarter are atrocious, though. I would say Dasung and Onyx Mira are the popular brands for eink monitors. If you only want greyscale, those two have decent options available today. It seems like this larger color eink panel just became available, which is why you see both Dasung and Bigme building products around it now.
- irjustin 3y agoMakes sense about the color displays just coming onto market. that's traditionally what's kept me from exploring for coding. lack of colors is a nightmare in code reading.
- rbanffy 3y agoFor me, I find color distracting. I prefer shades of the same color and typography for code highlighting. I still remember Apple’s Pascal on early Macs with monochrome screens and it did wonders with 1 bit per pixel.
- uoaei 3y agoCan you share a config or at least an example for your code highlighting setups? I've always relied on colors because I can't imagine a typography-based highlighter that doesn't use (the atrocious to me in monospace code) italics.
- fzzzy 3y agoit's not a scam. the tradeoff is bad ghosting.
- shultays 3y agoI don't see any bad ghosting in the video/animation in article/kickstarter. It is a scam since it is something they can't deliver yet collecting money for.
- a012 3y agoI would buy one once they're in stock instead of a Kickstarter pledge. Another thing is their goal is too low (HK $50k) compared with the product's cost (~ HK $11k), why bother with Kickstarter project?
- YurgenJurgensen 3y agoYeah, going with Kickstarter with a goal that low is pretty sus. Either they have no idea how much this is going to cost, or, more likely, they already have the product and this is basically a preorder but you have less recourse if they don't deliver.
- PeterStuer 3y agoEasy grift.
- josu 3y agoThis looks like a scam.
- LispSporks22 3y agoMy first thought also. The refresh rate has got to be shit and the kid holding the phone and scrolling the eInk just smells of false advertising.
- pjerem 3y agoWhy ? Bigme already have an history of e-ink based products and the proposition is not that new : Dasung and Onyx are already proposing E-ink monitor in the same price range. To be honest, I even fail to see what is new in the Bigme proposition vs the Onyx Mira for instance. But I don’t see this as a scam. Except that they carefully avoid talking about refresh rate but it’s now easy to judge the Onyx Mira Pro and Dasung monitors refresh rates on YouTube reviews : they are mostly garbage and they require you to adjust your workflow but then again nothing new here.
- tedunangst 3y agoApparently the refresh rate is "xRapid", whatever that means.
- toast0 3y agoIt means it's faster than xSlow ;)
- function_seven 3y agoThey should use a clearer designation, like the USB folks. xFull, xHi, xSuper, etc.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Nevermark 3y agoSo xFast == notFast == slow, obviously. But without a clear spec, how can I know its not too xFast, before ordering one? It is cool tech, and anyone wanting/needing a nice screen like that won't mind slow to a point, but still want to know what that means.
- neltnerb 3y agoYou have to go through a few clicks (I can still barely find references) but I found: "China's Bigme, which was recently the first to launch with E Ink's Gallery 3 color ePaper technology, has announced a follow up to its S6 Color enote that comes with a Kaleido 3 display and a snappy 12-fps refresh rate." 12. Snappy. On the one hand, yeah, for some uses. But they might want to mention that earlier on...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Nevermark 3y agoI got one of Samsung's "The Frame" art TVs with similar tech [0], and am planning on reframing it with an ornate wood frame. [1] I outfitted three large flatscreens in my home with ornate frames. One with dielectric mirror glass as well. They look fantastic as a mirror or a screen. Hiding the hard edge of the TVs under beautiful frames gives an impression of nice furniture instead of tech. Hard to describe, but the rooms feel more old-world and relaxing to be in. [0] https://www.samsung.com/us/tvs/the-frame/highlights/ https://www.samsung.com/us/tvs/the-frame/highlights/ [1] https://www.pictureframes.com/ornate-black-and-gold-wood-picture-frame-pkg https://www.pictureframes.com/ornate-black-and-gold-wood-pic...
- duskwuff 3y ago12 fps is blindingly fast compared to some of the early color eInk displays which took 20-30 seconds to update -- while wildly cycling through different colors. Still, doesn't mean I'd want to use it as a computer display.
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- d3w4s9 3y agoIs there any scientific research that shows clear evidence that e-ink screens are indeed better for eyes compared to LED screens in the same environment? I have seen such claims for many years but don't remember ever seeing any research quoted, and couldn't find any myself in my previous search. As much as I would like to believe e-ink is better (as a long time Kindle user), I hope to see something more concrete.
- scythe 3y agoYour threshold for clear evidence may vary. I found several studies, including an attempt at a randomized trial measuring the effects of screen use on the optical surface: http://doi.org/10.1111/cts.12933 http://doi.org/10.1111/cts.12933 "Effects on the Ocular Surface from Reading on Different Smartphone Screens", Yuan, K. et al, 2020 A few other studies found differing effects on blink rate and visual fatigue from different screens. http://doi.org/10.1097/OPX.0000000000001616 http://doi.org/10.1097/OPX.0000000000001616 "How do Different Digital Displays Affect the Ocular Surface", Talens-Estarelles, C. et al, 2020 In this case, screen size was also associated with detrimental effects, with larger screens generally performing worse, and smartphones similar in effect to the e-reader. This may partially account for some hitherto unexplained preference for smartphones over computers among some users. The e-reader was better than the tablet, but not better than the smartphone. The earliest study to show any effect was Benedetto et al, focusing on visual fatigue, which has been widely cited: http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0083676 http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0083676 "E-Readers and Visual Fatigue", Benedetto, S. et al, 2013. At least one study found statistically insignificant effects, though the e-reader showed mostly improved (but insignificant) test results, which does not weigh against the existence of an effect: http://doi.org/10.1111/j.1475-1313.2012.00928.x http://doi.org/10.1111/j.1475-1313.2012.00928.x "Reading on LCD vs e-Ink displays: effects on fatigue and visual strain", Siegenthaler, E. et al, 2012. Siegenthaler et al do not measure effects on the ocular surface; such effects seem to have reached scientific interest only in the late 2010s. Also, the difference between e-Ink and LCD peak luminance in Siegenthaler was only 10%; the ratio of ambient to screen luminance has been observed to mediate the relationship between screen usage and eye strain: http://doi.org/10.1016/j.displa.2020.101943 http://doi.org/10.1016/j.displa.2020.101943 "Influence of ambient-tablet PC luminance ratio on visual fatigue", Yu, H. and Akita, T. 2020. While I attempted to find any high-quality studies, positive or negative, available looking at the relationship between screen type and eye strain, my interpretation of the data likely reflects (hah!) my strong intuition that shining a light directly into your eyes is bad.
- drekipus 3y agoWhy all-in-one? The PC component is just going to get outdated, and the whole thing will be a waste?
- YurgenJurgensen 3y agoHere's a hypothetical EU directive: Ban all-in-one computing devices that don't also function as dumb monitors. Set a maximum screen size to exclude phones and things with built-in secondary screens.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y agoThere's a monitor-only option for $400 less. It's in the article: "Backers looking for a color E Ink monitor only can also find a B251 version on the project page, with pledges starting from $1,299."
- hellotheretoday 3y agoI have a kaleido3 e reader and I like it but I do not understand how they will overcome the limitations of the panel with “xRapid” My tablet is the boox ultra tab c. I’ve put about 350 hours of reading into it since I bought it in July. It’s pretty handy for reading manga, comics, and books. It’s a bit heavy but the screen is nice, the battery lasts a while. E ink color is a mixed bag. I like having it but I can definitely see how it would not be for everyone. I have major eye issues that make back and front lighting physically uncomfortable after about 45-60 minutes so this is a good way for me to be able to read ebooks. The color can’t compare to oled but it’s still pretty decent; I liken it to newsprint. That all said the refresh rate and ghosting issues are noticeable. I use it purely as an ereader and still notice it. When I first got it I played around with a few games, YouTube, Firefox, etc and found them very difficult to seriously use most of the time. Boox has an option to put a button on the screen to force a screen refresh for when you notice ghosting. This is mildly annoying but workable for ebooks. I wish they would allow you to just make a setting on page turns. For some reason they really don’t want that page turn screen flash even if you turn it on manually so they begrudgingly force it into a button that you press as needed. But that’s where I question the validity of this project: when you force the refresh of the screen it once again looks beautiful and the ghosting is solved. However, this is a relatively slow process. The full refresh takes a noticeable amount of time approaching a full second, maybe even over a full second. So they aren’t just doing that, obviously. Everything else I’ve seen from boox that increases the refresh rate greatly increases ghosting. Like insanely and very noticeably. From what I’ve read this is not a boox issue. Other vendors, including bigme, have the same problem with kaleido3 panels and modes that do not force a full refresh. So I have to assume their “xRapid” is probably a lot of hype. I hope it’s not, and I hope it inspires boox and other vendors to improve the software of their products, but I genuinely believe this is a limitation of the panels Long story short I’m betting the people who buy these will be pretty disappointed. Maybe I’m wrong and bigme is about to seriously overcome the issues these panels have seen to date but I certainly wouldn’t bet my $1800 on it
- zeagle 3y agoI have one too and while it's great to just OK for the use cases I purchased it for but I can't feel but disappointed in myself for the price. For me it was similarly intentional to get avoid a media consumption device and encourage reading. For anyone whose considering a the highlight is the pen: it works great so I am writing notes on call and then sync them to my phone easily, I read articles/pdf textbook chapters and annotate,and sketch with a android app. Other tablets have nice pens but it works well here. The downside: smaller text in periodicals like Boston globe, retrogamer, or guardian weekly through pressreader is on the edge of readability without zooming in. Regal/ultra settings don't do anything in the app. The screen itself is limited: without forcing a refresh any images are quite artefacted. If you have it on ultra/regal mode the automatic regular refresh is jarring. I suspect the next generation of this tech or 2" bigger screen will solve the issue but this ain't it for ~$1000 cdn all in. Any suggestions for software? Eink bro is a better eink browser than the ones you mention. Press reader, sketchbook, read by qxmd I find work great.
- p-e-w 3y ago> meaning users are treated to a 25.3-inch Kaleido 3 E Ink screen ... yet the largest Kaleido screen size mentioned on E Ink's official website is 13.3-inch. And such screens most certainly don't have a ~60 Hz refresh rate like in the mockup video from the article. So I'm a little skeptical here, to put it mildly.
- chx 3y ago60Hz is not mentioned anywhere on the Kickstarter page. That's just shoddy reporting AFAIK. https://www.eink.com/news/detail/E-Ink-Launches-E-Ink-Kaleido-3-Outdoor-ePaper-Technology https://www.eink.com/news/detail/E-Ink-Launches-E-Ink-Kaleid... > Available in sizes ranging from 13.3 inches to 42 inches, the latest E Ink Kaleido 3 Outdoor color ePaper technology will be showcased at Touch Taiwan 2023 from April 19-21, 2023.
- p-e-w 3y ago> 60Hz is not mentioned anywhere on the Kickstarter page. The article has a video showing smooth scrolling on the screen, which is completely impossible with current e-paper technology, unless there has been a recent revolution that I'm not aware of.
- taylorius 3y agoI was going to say, that "video" of the e-ink screen looks a LOT quicker to refresh than anything I've previously seen.
- rbanffy 3y agoI remember seeing e-ink panel demos where the integrator claimed the usual slow refresh was a side effect of the low power requirements rather than a limitation of the panel. They claimed that a controller designed for fast refresh could show moving video on an e-ink panel. It kind of makes sense because you can address individual pixels in the panel and they can change state faster if you apply higher tensions. The trick is to refresh the whole panel at least 30 times per second. You can also fool the human brain by rendering motion blur.
- wetpaws 3y ago[dead]
- biscuit1v9 3y agoI'd still stick to: 30-40 min of LED monitor with 1-2 min eye break, where I look further to relax my muscles. Also: flux for when you can't/won't sleep.
- roschdal 3y agoThe best eye comfort is being outside in nature without computers.
- chaosprint 3y agoAm I one of the few here who have already got an E Ink Display for coding? I use Onyx Boox 13,3" Boox Mira. But the refresh rate can be an issue. Mouse dragging feels so different that I prefer not to use the mouse and only rely on keyboard. If it fits your workflow then the refresh rate won't be an issue.
- Tepix 3y agoI tried using the Onyx Boox Max Lumi 13.3" as a monitor and did not like it. Too much ghosting.
- dredmorbius 3y agoOnyx BOOX Max Lumi (a rev or two earlier than yours), also 13.3". Changing the display mode can have a big impact on display quality / refresh rates, though unfortunately it is a trade-off. I much prefer apps and activities which focus on whole-screen rewrites or paginated navigation. Termux does reasonably well, all told, but I'd probably not be as happy with a GUI desktop unless it were a fairly static tiled window manager, and largely keyboard-driven. Refresh rates under speedier display modes can display video, though it's hardly stellar quality. More an "it's there if you really need it" than a "this will sell you on the device" thing. (Notetaking capabilities are more the latter --- I'd had really no interest in that when purchasing my tablet, it's turned out to be quite useful and usable.) General principles for e-ink displays: Persistence is free, pixels are cheap, paints are expensive, viewability increases rather than decreases as ambient lighting increases, and colours are usually nonexistent or at best limited when available at all.
- PeterStuer 3y agoThese panels have a typical refresh rate of 12 Hz (yes, that is with the xRapid refresh tech). This infomercial for their kickstarter never mentions this, but yet they lie about eyecomfort pretending this is suitable for video and webbrowsing.
- DoingIsLearning 3y agoWhat eye confort problem does this solve that is not achievable with a Transflective LCD with actual normal refresh rates? Specially for the Desktop segment where battery autonomy is not an issue it feels that e-ink doesn't solve anything that an RLCD wouldn't. The main issue is our lack of offer in the transflective segment for 'mostly reading' displays.
- schaefer 3y agoA matte finish panel for a 13-14 inch laptop what I'm waiting for. For me, e-ink's killer use case is full sunlight / outdoor use. I'm so annoyed that the ThinkBook Plus Gen 4 Intel [1] has a layer of glossy glass. So close on that one, but no. [1]: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkbook/thinkbook-plus/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-4-(13-inch-intel)/len101b0031 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkbook/thinkbook-p...?
- hmottestad 3y agoUsing Vivid on my M1 Macbook Pro 16" makes it quite usable for dev work in full sunlight. Vivid brings the overall brightness to about 1000 nits. Screen tends to get quite warm though, and even more so in direct sunlight.
- thomasfl 3y agoThis is a pc display that has to be experienced for yourself. On the website this display looks no different from other displays.
- asimpletune 3y agoIf would be so cool if one day they could invent a combined lcd/e-ink display. Like for text and stuff I want e-ink, and for the rest I want something more traditional.
- Sander_Marechal 3y agoYou mean a Transflective LCD like the $100 OLPC XO laptop used? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...
- rbanffy 3y agoIs it one more case where a good technology was killed by incumbents fearing disruption? Their tech seemed solid and a good match for tablets such as the Kindle Fire family that tries to overlap tablets and e-readers.
- marcosdumay 3y agoThere was an article here about using boring technology and how you have a limited number of "innovation tokens" you can use before you get overwhelmed. The OLPC is a very clear example. The idea of a completely innovative product, with an innovative distribution, an innovative application, for an innovative education method brought way too many small failures. It's incredible that they even managed to put all of the technical innovations together at some point.
- rbanffy 3y agoThinking a bit more on this, the PixelQi display didn’t have a use case where it was clearly the best option. You could use it reflectively, but, then, it was grayscale only (because the colors come from the backlight) while, when used transmissively, the colors seemed washed out because the prisms didn’t separate RGB components completely enough, unlike the filters used in pure transmissive LCDs. A bummer, really. It was a nice technology. As was the XO, BTW. I have the feeling they should have started with rich countries. My daughter’s school is pushing for Windows laptops for students running mostly Office stuff and OneNote instead of paper notebooks.
- gunalx 3y agoThis seems like a really good idea for stuff like plain text editing and simple static web browsing. Though I would rather wait for a namebrand like onyx to jump on the color caleido screens for a desktop display. Low framerate really does not bother me as t much as long as it is above 15 or so frames.
- qwerty456127 3y agoSeeking an eInk display I would rather opt for an animation-free lo-fi UI than a fast-refresh display. And probably limit the whole colour palette to a humble number of colours. It's not just the eyes, the whole nervous system is overwhelmed by all the bells and whistles.
- lallysingh 3y agoThis looks spectacular for Emacs. I don't need more than 5fps.
- rollcat 3y agoFramerate is one thing, but you should consider typing latency. At 5fps, you get an average of 200ms of extra latency from the display alone, on top of everything else (keyboard, OS, application, GPU, etc). https://aresluna.org/keyboard-secrets/typing-delay/ https://aresluna.org/keyboard-secrets/typing-delay/ EDIT: oh and remember, you're going to get an awful lot of perceptible jitter, depending on how close to the exact time of refresh you've hit the key.
- nottorp 3y agoJust like back in the days you did server admin over dialup. I'd say vi is more suited to high latency though.
- projektfu 3y agoE-ink is a bit funny with refresh rates. An entire display can take a long time but a character cell can actually be pretty quick, and they aren't tied to a clock rate. However, connecting it to Windows graphic drivers may make it hard to have that kind of incremental update.
- rollcat 3y agoIndeed, which makes me hopeful it will at one point be viable to DIY a cheap, low-wattage computing/hacking device, based around an SBC or a beefy MCU. I haven't done a full sweep of the e-ink landscape in a while, but the consensus a couple years ago was that all the low-latency solutions are still on the expensive side (you're better off with a regular screen).
- yarg 3y agoI just don't see this as a viable option for plug and play usage in a modern desktop environment. Something like this could be used with a bespoke UI optimised around office productivity. In such an environment, complete screen changes (such as after clicking next) don't need to be instant, and minor text changes as well as mouse movements can be fast enough. But that's not the software stack we built for the world - so what's the use case here?
- jrockway 3y agoI'm not so sure. I used to use a 30Hz display while waiting for a driver update (was a 4k early adopter), and I found programming with a 33ms key latency to be maddening. Even 60Hz feels slow if you've used higher refresh rate devices. (I wrote a toy editor with imgui and tried it on my 360Hz monitor vs. my 60Hz monitor and the smoothness was wonderful; high refresh is good for more than just shooting people in a game, though that's why I have that particular monitor.) e-ink displays are nice, but I wonder if it's just because how contrast works? The software asks for #000000 text on a #FFFFFF background, and with e-ink, that's maybe a handful of stops apart. But if you do that on an HDR display, maybe it's twice as many stops apart. The solution might be to ask for #555555 text on a #AAAAAA background, or something like that. (I dark mode everywhere, so I'd do the opposite. In fact, I do do that, my terminal background is not black, and my text is not white. I pick like grey10 and grey90.)
- pbmonster 3y ago> I'm not so sure. I used to use a 30Hz display while waiting for a driver update (was a 4k early adopter), and I found programming with a 33ms key latency to be maddening Because of stupid software licences, I have to work a lot in remote desktop when I'm working from home. So I work with latency while typing all the time. It was maddening in the beginning, but I got used to it quickly. I think the key is that you have to be able to touch-type without relying on close-loop feedback. If your error rate is low enough, you quickly learn to trust your fingers. After that, all you need to relearn is cursor positioning - you can't hold down arrow keys (or HJKL in vim) ever. It forced me to rely on moving the cursor x words/paragraphs at a time, and to use the mouse a little more.
- _ph_ 3y agoI would be entirely happy with a 300ppi greyscale e Ink screen which has at least A4 dimensions. With USB-C input for power and video. Possibly just using DisplayLink instead of a video connection, as speed is not an issue.
- layer8 3y ago“Eye comfort” requires qualification. E-ink contrast is so low that manufacturers are careful to not mention the actual contrast ratio (generally in the low two-digits to 1). Depending on individual eyesight, that can be quite straining.
- itishappy 3y agoUnlike emissive display technologies, E-ink maintains contrast in well lit environments. On a sunny day, my Kindles and ReMarkable are a joy to use outside, while my Pixel needs it's OLED cranked up all the way to be visible. In low light environments things reverse. OLED emits light per pixel and cannot be beat, while E-ink backlights are kinda fuzzy (reminds me of the old LCD clock/watch backlights). That being said, for reading static text it's perfectly adequate, and I tend to prefer the distraction-free nature of the Kindle.
- m463 3y agothe qualification is probably "use a reading light indoors" I like reading on an e-ink reader - in a chair with a reading lamp. (but this is in my lap, not trying to be a desktop environment)
- jillesvangurp 3y agoDepends, a backlit e-ink display is actually quite easy on the eyes. I'm middle aged and I should get reading glasses but haven't yet. Basically, the backlight creates enough contrast that I can easily read the text. I tend to read late at night when my eyes are tired as well. However, unlike LED screens, the contrast comes from the light reflecting on the display, so the more light, the better it gets. You can use e-ink screens comfortably in the blazing sun wearing sun glasses. Even the best LED screens struggle to deliver enough contrast under those circumstances.
- layer8 3y agoYes, I can only (semi-)comfortably read e-ink with backlighting, but then I may as well use LCD or OLED, with the extra benefits those bring. OLED in particular is great for reading at night (light text on pitch-black background).
- manmal 3y agoThere's an rLCD 32" monitor from a vendor called Sun Vision, at roughly the same price. They usually make outdoor signage displays, but recently decided to produce a desktop monitor too. I spent some time researching it a few months back, but didn't end up buying it because there's no way to test it before buying where I live (only in the UK where they have a sales rep). Reportedly, rLCD looks spectacularly good in bright sunlight. It also doesn't have the ghosting and low FPS issues that eInk displays (still) have. Its resolution might be lower than eInk (equivalent of full HD IIRC), but that's hard to compare I guess. Anyway, rLCD seems like a more promising solution to eyestrain to me - with enough ambient lighting, those are almost equivalent to a normal display.
- smcleod 3y agoIs it lit from behind still though? Also - FHD is really dreadful on a 14” screen - I can’t imagine it’s going to be anything but on a 30~
- manmal 3y agoIIRC think it’s front lit. About the resolution - I agree, that could be bad.
- bartvk 3y agoIt looks like this is the product: https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/The-NEW-rE-Monitor-Featuring-32-Color-RLCD-Technology https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/product/The-NEW-rE-Monitor-... Note that it says in the US and UK, you can send it back. They don't mention any return costs, but you can definitely try it out.
- manmal 3y agoI think I wouldn’t get import taxes back, so that would probably cost €300 (incl shipping) just for trying out.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y agoI love this. shame it's kickstarter stage only. There's a real lack of anti-glare displays outside of a few thinkpads. I was even considering purchasing one of those huiwon art tablets to use as my monitor because it's a fully matte display. The Macs are particularly bad reflecting almost like mirrors. I'm not a fan of ultra-hi DPI super glare reflective displays at all.
- hinoki 3y agoMacs used to have nice matte displays in the Power era, but now the only matte display they make is the “nano texture” upgrade to the Studio/Pro displays. Only $300 or $1000!? dollars more.
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y agothanks, was not aware of those.
- Eric_WVGG 3y agoIt’s a $300 upgrade. And it’s quite remarkable; my home desk is in direct sunlight until about noon, and yeah, the Nano-texture is totally visible in what are objectively the “worst” conditions for a screen, never reflects at any time of day. I have other issues with the display (the camera is as bad as everyone says, and… a display with an OS? So dumb) but the screen at least really is All That.
- ant6n 3y ago1000$ update for 32 inch screen. I guess for a a MacBook that would be like a 150$ upgrade, too bad it doesn’t seem to exist
- cmiller1 3y agoI've heard it's much blurrier looking than the standard glass https://talk.macpowerusers.com/t/buyer-beware-nano-texture-softness/18843 https://talk.macpowerusers.com/t/buyer-beware-nano-texture-s...
- Skiboy89 3y agoI'm intrigued by the concept of a color e-ink display, though I'm not particularly drawn to all-in-one systems. It wouldn't be surprising if Onyx releases a color variant of their Mira Monitors soon. In my experience, Onyx devices tend to lead the pack in the e-ink domain. As for the 13.3-inch Mira model, it currently operates at a peak power of 6W, which means it can be powered via a standard laptop's USB-A/B/C port. Notably, the latest Raspberry PI 5 can deliver 8-9W through its USBs. This suggests I could utilize a single USB-C cable to power both computer and monitor. Then I use a short USB 3.0 cable transfer power and video signal to the monitor. This could be an efficient portable setup. The e-ink display performs impressively under direct sunlight, and paired with a typical power bank, one might not need to charge for up to two days.
- cubefox 3y agoThis uses E Ink's Kaleido display, which uses colored pixels (subpixels) to create color. Subpixels are standard for emissive color screens, but for reflective screens they result in very dark images (and consequently very low contrast) compared to paper. For example, to display a red image, the screen simply turns the green and blue subpixels black. So two thirds of the screen area is black and only one third is red. For printed paper the whole sheet would be red. And to display white, the subpixels can't turn white (they can only turn black), so they have to mix white from red, green and blue. So each subpixel only reflects around a third of the visible spectrum, while for white paper the whole area reflects all visible wavelengths. Making the colored Kaleido screen very dark in comparison. The problem is well known. If you want acceptable contrast in a color e paper screen, you need a display technology which can change colors inside the pixels, not just the brightness. E Ink does have such technology, but it is very slow and offers only very few colors.
- cmiller1 3y agoI wonder why they don't try layering a transparent LCD panel over an E-ink display. It seems like you could either intelligently turn it on and off when higher refresh rate and color are needed, or simply give the user the ability to turn it on and off manually for a lower power, easier on the eyes, mode that doesn't provide color.
- avidiax 3y agoThe problem, at least indoors, is not emissive (LCD/OLED) vs. reflective (E-ink). You can very closely simulate a reflective display using an emissive display and ambient light sensors. That's what Google's Nest Hub Max does, and it very often looks like a framed photo (i.e. reflective). It's not like photons coming from an LED in a panel are more damaging than those same photons coming from an LED in the ceiling, that then reflects off of e-ink. Outdoors, the problem is that transmissive displays are not bright enough to beat sunlight. That's where e-ink makes more sense, and where I think there could be a real health benefit (outdoor sunlight exposure, ability to focus at long distances).
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- Hamcha 3y agoI'm skeptical not of the claims but of the usability long-term, tablets like the BOOX Tab Ultra C look great but they commit to violating the GPL rather than giving users a chance to mess with the internals. I've been loosely following the works of Wenting Zhang and their modos.tech which have a fully open hardware controller that can run at 60FPS[1] with 1bit BW and still seem pretty decent latency-wise with grayscale on[2]. Sadly most of their public activity nowadays seem to be on building a DIY MILC camera so don't know if we're ever going to see a full version of this. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XduK7wn9SE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XduK7wn9SE4 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=480xteW2wq4
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- MenhirMike 3y agoIsn't the low refresh rate in any eInk display the real problem? Sure, you're gonna get crispy still pictures, but in motion you're gonna get something that compares unfavorably to the ghosting/smearing of a first-generation GameBoy? At least that was a common topic every time an eink monitor has been discussed over the years (and there were quite a few), which made them suitable for only a pretty narrow range of use cases. Still pretty decent for those, but that animation of the person sliding up the news page without any lag/ghosting is dishonest at best and outright fraudulent at worst. (And that one comes from the Kickstarter campaign, so it's the manufacturer themselves that are lying, not the news reporting.)
- jamilbk 3y agoImagine if e-ink displays were as advanced as our current luminous displays: - Outdoor offices would be possible (weather permitting). Levels of Vitamin D deficiency, rates of burnout, and spread of airborne illness would all plummet. - Entire hackathons could take place in a shaded orchard or on a breezy pool deck. - Sleep would improve across the office-bound workforce Downsides: - sunburns - insects - rain - the Bay Area would become even more crowded
- bawolff 3y agoI think it would be kind of cool to do a command line terminal type laptop with e-ink. I feel like most of the drawbacks of e-ink would go away in a terminal. B&W? Totally fine. Slow refresh? Who cares, it is probabky going to have less latency than my ssh connection, and maybe i misunderstand but i think e-ink can go faster if it doesn't have to redraw the whole screen.
- tuetuopay 3y agolenovo's thinkbook might be a good option if the lcd can be fully powered off. usable outside, i'd guess terrific battery life, and easy on the eyes.