6 ms·

> return cash to shareholders I think the highlight here is that the buybacks were funded by debt. They're not "returning" anything.

darth_avocado 3y ago
Actually it’s not okay. You’re basically making money for investors who are “in on it” at the moment at the expense of future investors and other large investors who are just in the stock as a result of big fund diversification. My retirement money could be funding the sleazy stock sales from the insiders while they sell out the company.
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
When interest rates are low, a rational corporation will want to be funded in large part by debt.
- actionablefiber 3y ago
  Borrowing money to buy back stock is the opposite of funding: it's de-funding. It's the acquisition of liabilities with no offsetting acquisition of assets or future cash flows.
  - nradov 3y ago
    So what? It's just a change in capital structure. Most corporations are funded by a mix of equity and debt. On average, taking on some debt boosts shareholder returns despite the increased risk of bankruptcy.
    - vibrio 3y ago
      Yes, boost shareholder return, but on what timescale?
      - nradov 3y ago
        All timescales.
        actionablefiber 3y ago
        Long-term Bed Bath shareholders lost everything. Evidently their returns were not boosted by the buybacks.
        nradov 3y ago
        On average having some level of debt boosts shareholder returns. It does increase the risk of bankruptcy, but usually it's a net win. Smart shareholders are diversified so that the bankruptcy of any single company in their portfolio has minimal impact.
        vibrio 3y ago
        More interesting that debt to equity ratio, is what is done with the capital that is raised by either mechanism. Is it possible for investment into operations, marketing or strategic expansion or reduction to improve shareholder returns? Does CEO compensation that is well into the hundred million dollar range for performance that isn’t remarkable typically boost shareholder returns? These are questions that I think are more interesting to people running and governing companies. Even to CFOs which all know in their sleep the first year MBA financial engineering tricks of CAPM, WACC, and leverage to determine optimal capital structure. The attitude conveyed in your last sentence should be a large red flog to a competent and attentive Board or share holder. First, it is of no concern to the management how much I am or am not diversified- management’s job is to optimally run a company, not my portfolio. Second, leveraging up a compsny in low interest rate times is likely largely increases systemic risk to the share holders which, according to Markowitz’s modern portfolio theory, is not reduced by diversification versus idiosyncratic risk, which is.
    - throw0101a 3y ago
      > On average, taking on some debt boosts shareholder returns despite the increased risk of bankruptcy. Define "shareholder". The day trader? The hedge fund who wants a position for a few weeks/months? The pension fund that would like regular cash flow? The person with a retirement account that is dollar cost averaging into the market over a period of decades? See "investor heterogeneity".
  - WJW 3y ago
    From an accounting standpoint it's funding-neutral: you assume a debt liability with offsetting reduction of the equity liability. This makes the return on invested capital larger, since the same profits get divided over less shares. The investors to whom the capital was returned can then invest that capital somewhere else. It does make the company more vulnerable to economic downturns of course, since debt comes with mandatory payments that equity doesn't have. But making the tradeoff between larger profits and larger stability is what the investors hired managers for. If they don't like the tradeoffs being made, they should get different management or sell their stake in the poorly run business.
  - gibbitz 3y ago
    What gets me here is that bust out 1 happened after one bad holiday season to a company that was doing great the previous year. Another company in New Jersey (Toys R Us) had a similar one mistake year and ended up owned by Bain Capital -- the people who profited from the bust out weren't even part of company. Why is it that retail companies only get one strike before their stocks are pillaged leaving them crippled? Is there another market as ruthless as this?
    - nradov 3y ago
      You are looking at only two companies, not a representative sample of retailers. ANF, for example, has multiple "strikes" but they're still around. Retailers only become vulnerable to takeovers when investors lose confidence in management's competence. All other industries are equally ruthless. In general the US still has a surplus of retail space. There will probably be more major bankruptcies in the next few years, which is fine. Let them die and more innovative companies will take their place.
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    Stocks and bonds (or loans) are both liabilities. Only difference is priority. Lenders have priority over shareholders in the event of a liquidation. If you own stock in a company and they're shifting from being funded by capital to being funded by debt, it mostly shouldn't matter unless they're going bankrupt, and in this case they clearly were headed that way and stockholders should have sold. In some sense _the entire reason that companies exist_ is so that shareholders can at some point extract some money from the company and there's only two ways to do that -- either through dividends or growth. BB was (at best) clearly no longer a growth company, and stock buybacks are just dividends in disguise. They're a strong signal that you should be cashing out at least some of of your position as a stock holder while you can.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- flangola7 3y ago
  Taking on debt you don't need is a fundamental failure of personal responsibility
  - WJW 3y ago
    For an individual, perhaps. Even there some exceptions can be found though: taking on a mortgage to buy a house can be the right decision even though you could keep on renting and don't technically need to take on the debt. For a business it gets much muddier: do they "need" to take on debt if it makes them more competitive in the market? A company with a well optimized capital structure containing both debt and equity can be much more profitable than a company without, and can use those extra profits to out-compete companies that are less efficient.
    - JackFr 3y ago
      As long as corporate finance has existed, the fundamental question, indeed the only question is what is the optimal capital structure for the firm.
- xhrpost 3y ago
  > be funded in large part by debt. All that debt went to stock buybacks so how is the company in this case being "funded" by the debt?
JackFr 3y ago
It’s changing the capital structure from equity based to debt based. Effectively it’s a change in ownership from stock holders to bond holders. Indeed it’s a sensible move if you are in a non-growth industry with stable and predictable cashflows - this is often how utility companies were financed. It’s arguable that that was the intent of Bust Out 1.

darth_avocado 3y ago

Actually it’s not okay. You’re basically making money for investors who are “in on it” at the moment at the expense of future investors and other large investors who are just in the stock as a result of big fund diversification. My retirement money could be funding the sleazy stock sales from the insiders while they sell out the company.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

When interest rates are low, a rational corporation will want to be funded in large part by debt.

actionablefiber 3y ago
Borrowing money to buy back stock is the opposite of funding: it's de-funding. It's the acquisition of liabilities with no offsetting acquisition of assets or future cash flows.
- nradov 3y ago
  So what? It's just a change in capital structure. Most corporations are funded by a mix of equity and debt. On average, taking on some debt boosts shareholder returns despite the increased risk of bankruptcy.
  - vibrio 3y ago
    Yes, boost shareholder return, but on what timescale?
    - nradov 3y ago
      All timescales.
      - actionablefiber 3y ago
        Long-term Bed Bath shareholders lost everything. Evidently their returns were not boosted by the buybacks.
        nradov 3y ago
        On average having some level of debt boosts shareholder returns. It does increase the risk of bankruptcy, but usually it's a net win. Smart shareholders are diversified so that the bankruptcy of any single company in their portfolio has minimal impact.
        vibrio 3y ago
        More interesting that debt to equity ratio, is what is done with the capital that is raised by either mechanism. Is it possible for investment into operations, marketing or strategic expansion or reduction to improve shareholder returns? Does CEO compensation that is well into the hundred million dollar range for performance that isn’t remarkable typically boost shareholder returns? These are questions that I think are more interesting to people running and governing companies. Even to CFOs which all know in their sleep the first year MBA financial engineering tricks of CAPM, WACC, and leverage to determine optimal capital structure. The attitude conveyed in your last sentence should be a large red flog to a competent and attentive Board or share holder. First, it is of no concern to the management how much I am or am not diversified- management’s job is to optimally run a company, not my portfolio. Second, leveraging up a compsny in low interest rate times is likely largely increases systemic risk to the share holders which, according to Markowitz’s modern portfolio theory, is not reduced by diversification versus idiosyncratic risk, which is.
  - throw0101a 3y ago
    > On average, taking on some debt boosts shareholder returns despite the increased risk of bankruptcy. Define "shareholder". The day trader? The hedge fund who wants a position for a few weeks/months? The pension fund that would like regular cash flow? The person with a retirement account that is dollar cost averaging into the market over a period of decades? See "investor heterogeneity".
- WJW 3y ago
  From an accounting standpoint it's funding-neutral: you assume a debt liability with offsetting reduction of the equity liability. This makes the return on invested capital larger, since the same profits get divided over less shares. The investors to whom the capital was returned can then invest that capital somewhere else. It does make the company more vulnerable to economic downturns of course, since debt comes with mandatory payments that equity doesn't have. But making the tradeoff between larger profits and larger stability is what the investors hired managers for. If they don't like the tradeoffs being made, they should get different management or sell their stake in the poorly run business.
- gibbitz 3y ago
  What gets me here is that bust out 1 happened after one bad holiday season to a company that was doing great the previous year. Another company in New Jersey (Toys R Us) had a similar one mistake year and ended up owned by Bain Capital -- the people who profited from the bust out weren't even part of company. Why is it that retail companies only get one strike before their stocks are pillaged leaving them crippled? Is there another market as ruthless as this?
  - nradov 3y ago
    You are looking at only two companies, not a representative sample of retailers. ANF, for example, has multiple "strikes" but they're still around. Retailers only become vulnerable to takeovers when investors lose confidence in management's competence. All other industries are equally ruthless. In general the US still has a surplus of retail space. There will probably be more major bankruptcies in the next few years, which is fine. Let them die and more innovative companies will take their place.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  Stocks and bonds (or loans) are both liabilities. Only difference is priority. Lenders have priority over shareholders in the event of a liquidation. If you own stock in a company and they're shifting from being funded by capital to being funded by debt, it mostly shouldn't matter unless they're going bankrupt, and in this case they clearly were headed that way and stockholders should have sold. In some sense _the entire reason that companies exist_ is so that shareholders can at some point extract some money from the company and there's only two ways to do that -- either through dividends or growth. BB was (at best) clearly no longer a growth company, and stock buybacks are just dividends in disguise. They're a strong signal that you should be cashing out at least some of of your position as a stock holder while you can.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
flangola7 3y ago
Taking on debt you don't need is a fundamental failure of personal responsibility
- WJW 3y ago
  For an individual, perhaps. Even there some exceptions can be found though: taking on a mortgage to buy a house can be the right decision even though you could keep on renting and don't technically need to take on the debt. For a business it gets much muddier: do they "need" to take on debt if it makes them more competitive in the market? A company with a well optimized capital structure containing both debt and equity can be much more profitable than a company without, and can use those extra profits to out-compete companies that are less efficient.
  - JackFr 3y ago
    As long as corporate finance has existed, the fundamental question, indeed the only question is what is the optimal capital structure for the firm.
xhrpost 3y ago
> be funded in large part by debt. All that debt went to stock buybacks so how is the company in this case being "funded" by the debt?

JackFr 3y ago

It’s changing the capital structure from equity based to debt based. Effectively it’s a change in ownership from stock holders to bond holders. Indeed it’s a sensible move if you are in a non-growth industry with stable and predictable cashflows - this is often how utility companies were financed. It’s arguable that that was the intent of Bust Out 1.