53 ms·

Kids’ competitive activities lead to debt for parents

37 points by hintymad 3y ago

op00to 3y ago
This is … surprising. My kids play baseball and soccer, and it’s like $100/yr.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Is this factoring in equipment and transport costs?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > Is this factoring in equipment and transport costs? Yeah seriously. The final yearly cost of for-profit leagues easily runs into the thousands. One off summer programs, subsidized by orgs like the Y, are often a lot more affordable.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    The people self-reporting on this survey probably aren't factoring the cost of gas or automotive depreciation in, so that doesn't seem reasonable to include here. I did youth soccer in an expensive city as a kid (close to 20 years ago now), and I think my shorts and jersey were $30 (and that was for the fancy, custom team one). Double that for inflation now and you still have $40 left over, although I don't think my parents had to pay for anything else (since it was a public field and a volunteer-run league).
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      > I did youth soccer in an expensive city as a kid (close to 20 years ago now) I had early kids in lots of activities 20+ years ago. I did not do the same for my later kids because most everything we found was massively more expensive. Talking to parents who were involved, I learned a lot about how things changed. Modern activities really weren't the same offerings we had had. What was informal had become formal. Activities required a much larger time commitment. Volunteers had become professionals. Coaching was a world more serious. Transportation was formalized. Things like shared gear seemed to have gone away. Even the designed uniforms where more expensive than coverings we had bought. It had become cheaper for my younger kids to visit Belize and Alaska than to compete.
- nl 3y ago
  Does that include uniform and equipment costs?
  - op00to 3y ago
    Yes.
- mquirion 3y ago
  It's probably all the "travel teams" pushing up the averages. In my region travel teams for all sports are out of control. So long as you're willing to pay, your not-really-talented kid can play. And if your kid can't make the original travel team, or the one after that, or the one after that, someone is happy to fund their boat by creating another team.
  - op00to 3y ago
    haha i have no interest in taking my child further afield than the local soccer fields for soccer! i'm a horrible parent. :)
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  I think it depends on what level and type of "competitive" they're talking about in the article. When my daughter was in dance, they had a show every 2-3 months and the costumes for each show were $100, plus the dance lesson costs, travel costs (hotel, flights, etc in some cases). No problem for us, but there were other parents who really struggled and it didn't surprise me that it was unaffordable for a lot of people, but it did surprise me that they did it anyway.
- dfee 3y ago
  Well, here in the Bay Area, baseball and soccer are about $250 each per season (equip not included). So just 1 a season (fall/spring) would run you $500 at Little League and rec (soccer). Now, having coached a number of seasons, and having played sports at a high level in my youth, I can tell you that if your child is playing one season of rec per year, or honestly, not doing competitive sports, there’s no room to stand out at the HS level, and be considered for a college scholarship. Now, I didn’t receive a college scholarship for athletics, but I’m certain being a 4y letterman and 2y captain and nominal valedictorian all played a part in my college acceptance letters, and significant reduction of post-collegiate debt at a tier-1 school. I also had peers who didn’t do club sports in their HS sport until HS (i.e. switching from baseball to swimming) and they were granted scholarships. The big point being: if you think sports are important (totally subjective and personal; I’m not going to argue for or against), you need to pursue club sports and move beyond rec. Another (bonus) point: there’s tons of grift in club sports. I can totally see how someone would end up in debt, especially with multiple kids. And, I deeply sympathize with them, and hope that I’d be savvy enough to not get caught up in the game.
hintymad 3y ago
Now I wonder how many those parents are willing to be in debt for kids' academic tutoring. It says a lot about American parents.
- version_five 3y ago
  Huh? Is it a given that we should optimize life for school, particularly tutoring which I assume pertains to high school and below? I think in the absence of a disability, money spent on sports or drama club or 4H or whatever extra curriculars is a way better investment than extra math or something. To me it says they have sensible priorities.
  - dekhn 3y ago
    This is a tough call- while I generally think that everybody should get a well-rounded liberal education, it's pretty clear that investing more time into math and science leds to generally better long-term outcomes in terms of money, and that money translates into significantly greater life quality.
    - version_five 3y ago
      That may make sense for setting public policy but it's not necessarily true with your own kids is it?
      - bonestamp2 3y ago
        Unless the kid is really passionate about it and shows some real potential, I don't think it's worth breaking the bank for the kid to play in a competitive league. There are lots of fun/casual leagues for kids that don't travel and are much more affordable and provide a lot of the same benefits as the travel/competitive teams.
- fasthands9 3y ago
  The survey was about extracurricular activities and if you look at the charts things like music and debate team are pretty high on the list. I'm not sure what it says about Americans. If anything, I would wager that spending on tutoring is correlated with spending on sports.
candiddevmike 3y ago
You really hope the kids want to be in these as much as the parents do, otherwise what a terrible waste of money and effort getting your kids to do something they don't want to do.
- ronnier 3y ago
  I absolutely understand what you are saying... but if you let kids do what they want to do they'll sit around and play video games 16 hours a day. In times past, they'd likely be out working the farm. What do they do now? Consume media.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Never said I'd just let them sit around and consume media, it's not an either or. Anecdotally, I did sit around and play videogames (namely PC) 16 hours a day and became pretty good at computers.
    - hahajk 3y ago
      You lived during a good time to sit around and play with computers. I doubt time spent with an ipad today will translate to useful technical skills.
      - mathgeek 3y ago
        It’s still a good time to sit around and play with computers. Just don’t give your kids tablets and stick with desktops/laptops.
    - cfeduke 3y ago
      > I sat around and played videogames (namely PC) 16 hours a day and became pretty good at computers. I feel like this was the normal track for my Internet friends and I in the 90s. We've sold two startups pursuing the dream of making video games - which of course that dream came from playing video games all the time as kids. Though I'm doubtful if that particular path will translate well today, or especially over the next decade. Maybe it didn't translate well from the 90s either, but sure feels like it did. (And now in our 40s we still haven't made a single video game!) I'm also dubious as to whether competitive extracurricular activities will make a difference. This was the _thing_ in high school from guidance counselors - you must must must must be in a bunch of extracurricular activities so you can write them down on your college application or you will never get to attend a good college!
squirrel6 3y ago
This is probably driven by the state of elite college admissions.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > This is probably driven by the state of elite college admissions. I don't think so. I'd agree there's lots of overlap between families in for-profit league participation and university-affording families. But if the kid's family is in debt over league participation, that kid's college prospects are a lot slimmer, if they exist at all.
fdaslkjfdaslkj 3y ago
The 79% number is dubious. If you ask a population of debtors (people belonging to the lendingtree mailing list) if X contributed to their debt, and they bought X, then yes, X contributed to their debt. Along with Y, Z, etc. You could also write an article saying home cooked meals lead to debt for 79% of parents with the same mailing list.
- mplewis 3y ago
  Why did you make a throwaway just to post this comment?
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
    Maybe they are part of the 99% of readers who don’t comment, but felt really compelled to do so in this case. Or they have commented before but forgot their account info. They made a new account in a hurry because they just wanted to make the comment. Less likely oddball theory: maybe they have some relationship with the author or subject, don’t want to mess it up by publicly criticizing under their own name. Or they’re notable enough that people care what they say and they don’t like the loss of freedom that entails. The comment makes a compelling point and just relies on the linked page as a source, it doesn’t skirt any rules, so the reputation of the commenter is not that important.
    - esafak 3y ago
      Are you guys related?
      - fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
        Our clan has a proud heritage of keyboard-smashing.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  This is also how statistics on "medical bankruptcy" are compiled.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
My activities cost my mom little to nothing. My first 2 kids activities often bumped up against what we could afford. For my last two, the cost was out of our reach. We were deep into a trend and it increasingly divided families who could afford extracurriculars from those who can't. The apparent solution? Adding financing to that formula. In retrospect, it just heaps cruelty upon misfortune.
mritchie712 3y ago
> Whether it’s envisioning their child while watching the professional sports league drafts on TV or banking on college athletic or talent-based scholarships, 87% of parents with a kid involved in a competitive extracurricular said the activity could lead to income for their child (up from 80% of parents who said the same in the April 2019 survey). Dads are more likely than moms (92% versus 79%) to bet on their kids’ activities becoming lucrative. This is wild. Common sense should tell you getting drafted is a ridiculous thing to bank on and a quick google will tell you "Fewer than 2 percent of high school student-athletes are offered athletic scholarships"[0] 0 - https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/scholarship-facts https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/s...
- xmprt 3y ago
  For a lot of parents it's as simple as having another extracurricular activity on your college applications which can help you get into a better school. When that's a factor, then it makes the calculus a lot simpler. You don't need to bet on ridiculous odds like getting drafted or an athletic scholarship.
  - jrumbut 3y ago
    There are about 180,000 athletic scholarships too. There is certainly a lot of competition to win one, but it's not an unreasonable dream for a talented/hardworking youth.
    - fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
      If you can manage good academic progress while also earning an athletic scholarship, that’s fantastic. Shoot for the moon, get into a good school, all sorts of doors will be opened for you. If your athletic focus comes at the cost of poor academic performance, that’s a disaster. Sure, you can find a university that doesn’t care about whether you’re learning anything in class, but you’re probably going to struggle after you graduate.
- nradov 3y ago
mlhpdx 3y ago
When I was in school I played soccer and pole vaulted, at very little cost (which was good as I was one of seven children raised by a single mom - very modest means). The statistics are pretty clear that non-academic activities aren’t necessarily available to those in similar situations today. That is a shame. I pay a lot in taxes for education (and activities). I live in a state where it’s a constitutional obligation to provide an education and yet, schools aren’t educating student any better today than back then. And, they seem to be doing less overall. A someone who did volunteer teaching for 4 years I know there are wonderful people involved, but it just doesn’t seem to be functioning well overall. It’s not a great situation for kids or parents today.
unnamed76ri 3y ago
Parent of a kid who has a horse…it is in the $6-7k range annually. It is frankly embarrassing and at times has been nearly crippling financially. My spouse is one who believes in the scholarship thing.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
QuarterReptile 3y ago
Sports are a relatively plug-and-play way to direct your kids in some pursuit. You don't have to fight the culture nearly as much. And if you want your kids to work hard on their pursuits, you can pay your way into a whole system with professional coaches, regular competition, and 20+ hours per week chasing something hard. Similar ecosystems around music, ancient languages, math, or anything else seem rare or non-existent. So you may have to build the whole pathway yourself every night after you get home from work and get the kids to bed.
GuB-42 3y ago
Kids’ competitive activities don't lead to debt by themselves, it is an overall thing. You go in debt when you spend more than you earn. So what causes the debt? The expensive activities for the kids? The new car? The big house? The latest tech gadgets? You could point at any one of these to be the cause of the debt, but the reality is simply overspending. Maybe there is a small portion of parents you get in debt for their kids activity because it is an absolute priority and they already did everything they could have done to reduce spending elsewhere, but it is certainly not 8/10.

37 points by hintymad 3y ago

op00to 3y ago

This is … surprising. My kids play baseball and soccer, and it’s like $100/yr.

Gigachad 3y ago
Is this factoring in equipment and transport costs?
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Is this factoring in equipment and transport costs? Yeah seriously. The final yearly cost of for-profit leagues easily runs into the thousands. One off summer programs, subsidized by orgs like the Y, are often a lot more affordable.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  The people self-reporting on this survey probably aren't factoring the cost of gas or automotive depreciation in, so that doesn't seem reasonable to include here. I did youth soccer in an expensive city as a kid (close to 20 years ago now), and I think my shorts and jersey were $30 (and that was for the fancy, custom team one). Double that for inflation now and you still have $40 left over, although I don't think my parents had to pay for anything else (since it was a public field and a volunteer-run league).
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > I did youth soccer in an expensive city as a kid (close to 20 years ago now) I had early kids in lots of activities 20+ years ago. I did not do the same for my later kids because most everything we found was massively more expensive. Talking to parents who were involved, I learned a lot about how things changed. Modern activities really weren't the same offerings we had had. What was informal had become formal. Activities required a much larger time commitment. Volunteers had become professionals. Coaching was a world more serious. Transportation was formalized. Things like shared gear seemed to have gone away. Even the designed uniforms where more expensive than coverings we had bought. It had become cheaper for my younger kids to visit Belize and Alaska than to compete.
nl 3y ago
Does that include uniform and equipment costs?
- op00to 3y ago
  Yes.
mquirion 3y ago
It's probably all the "travel teams" pushing up the averages. In my region travel teams for all sports are out of control. So long as you're willing to pay, your not-really-talented kid can play. And if your kid can't make the original travel team, or the one after that, or the one after that, someone is happy to fund their boat by creating another team.
- op00to 3y ago
  haha i have no interest in taking my child further afield than the local soccer fields for soccer! i'm a horrible parent. :)
bonestamp2 3y ago
I think it depends on what level and type of "competitive" they're talking about in the article. When my daughter was in dance, they had a show every 2-3 months and the costumes for each show were $100, plus the dance lesson costs, travel costs (hotel, flights, etc in some cases). No problem for us, but there were other parents who really struggled and it didn't surprise me that it was unaffordable for a lot of people, but it did surprise me that they did it anyway.
dfee 3y ago
Well, here in the Bay Area, baseball and soccer are about $250 each per season (equip not included). So just 1 a season (fall/spring) would run you $500 at Little League and rec (soccer). Now, having coached a number of seasons, and having played sports at a high level in my youth, I can tell you that if your child is playing one season of rec per year, or honestly, not doing competitive sports, there’s no room to stand out at the HS level, and be considered for a college scholarship. Now, I didn’t receive a college scholarship for athletics, but I’m certain being a 4y letterman and 2y captain and nominal valedictorian all played a part in my college acceptance letters, and significant reduction of post-collegiate debt at a tier-1 school. I also had peers who didn’t do club sports in their HS sport until HS (i.e. switching from baseball to swimming) and they were granted scholarships. The big point being: if you think sports are important (totally subjective and personal; I’m not going to argue for or against), you need to pursue club sports and move beyond rec. Another (bonus) point: there’s tons of grift in club sports. I can totally see how someone would end up in debt, especially with multiple kids. And, I deeply sympathize with them, and hope that I’d be savvy enough to not get caught up in the game.

hintymad 3y ago

Now I wonder how many those parents are willing to be in debt for kids' academic tutoring. It says a lot about American parents.

version_five 3y ago
Huh? Is it a given that we should optimize life for school, particularly tutoring which I assume pertains to high school and below? I think in the absence of a disability, money spent on sports or drama club or 4H or whatever extra curriculars is a way better investment than extra math or something. To me it says they have sensible priorities.
- dekhn 3y ago
  This is a tough call- while I generally think that everybody should get a well-rounded liberal education, it's pretty clear that investing more time into math and science leds to generally better long-term outcomes in terms of money, and that money translates into significantly greater life quality.
  - version_five 3y ago
    That may make sense for setting public policy but it's not necessarily true with your own kids is it?
    - bonestamp2 3y ago
      Unless the kid is really passionate about it and shows some real potential, I don't think it's worth breaking the bank for the kid to play in a competitive league. There are lots of fun/casual leagues for kids that don't travel and are much more affordable and provide a lot of the same benefits as the travel/competitive teams.
fasthands9 3y ago
The survey was about extracurricular activities and if you look at the charts things like music and debate team are pretty high on the list. I'm not sure what it says about Americans. If anything, I would wager that spending on tutoring is correlated with spending on sports.

candiddevmike 3y ago

You really hope the kids want to be in these as much as the parents do, otherwise what a terrible waste of money and effort getting your kids to do something they don't want to do.

ronnier 3y ago
I absolutely understand what you are saying... but if you let kids do what they want to do they'll sit around and play video games 16 hours a day. In times past, they'd likely be out working the farm. What do they do now? Consume media.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Never said I'd just let them sit around and consume media, it's not an either or. Anecdotally, I did sit around and play videogames (namely PC) 16 hours a day and became pretty good at computers.
  - hahajk 3y ago
    You lived during a good time to sit around and play with computers. I doubt time spent with an ipad today will translate to useful technical skills.
    - mathgeek 3y ago
      It’s still a good time to sit around and play with computers. Just don’t give your kids tablets and stick with desktops/laptops.
  - cfeduke 3y ago
    > I sat around and played videogames (namely PC) 16 hours a day and became pretty good at computers. I feel like this was the normal track for my Internet friends and I in the 90s. We've sold two startups pursuing the dream of making video games - which of course that dream came from playing video games all the time as kids. Though I'm doubtful if that particular path will translate well today, or especially over the next decade. Maybe it didn't translate well from the 90s either, but sure feels like it did. (And now in our 40s we still haven't made a single video game!) I'm also dubious as to whether competitive extracurricular activities will make a difference. This was the _thing_ in high school from guidance counselors - you must must must must be in a bunch of extracurricular activities so you can write them down on your college application or you will never get to attend a good college!

squirrel6 3y ago

This is probably driven by the state of elite college admissions.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> This is probably driven by the state of elite college admissions. I don't think so. I'd agree there's lots of overlap between families in for-profit league participation and university-affording families. But if the kid's family is in debt over league participation, that kid's college prospects are a lot slimmer, if they exist at all.

fdaslkjfdaslkj 3y ago

The 79% number is dubious. If you ask a population of debtors (people belonging to the lendingtree mailing list) if X contributed to their debt, and they bought X, then yes, X contributed to their debt. Along with Y, Z, etc. You could also write an article saying home cooked meals lead to debt for 79% of parents with the same mailing list.

mplewis 3y ago
Why did you make a throwaway just to post this comment?
- fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
  Maybe they are part of the 99% of readers who don’t comment, but felt really compelled to do so in this case. Or they have commented before but forgot their account info. They made a new account in a hurry because they just wanted to make the comment. Less likely oddball theory: maybe they have some relationship with the author or subject, don’t want to mess it up by publicly criticizing under their own name. Or they’re notable enough that people care what they say and they don’t like the loss of freedom that entails. The comment makes a compelling point and just relies on the linked page as a source, it doesn’t skirt any rules, so the reputation of the commenter is not that important.
  - esafak 3y ago
    Are you guys related?
    - fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
      Our clan has a proud heritage of keyboard-smashing.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
This is also how statistics on "medical bankruptcy" are compiled.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

My activities cost my mom little to nothing. My first 2 kids activities often bumped up against what we could afford. For my last two, the cost was out of our reach. We were deep into a trend and it increasingly divided families who could afford extracurriculars from those who can't. The apparent solution? Adding financing to that formula. In retrospect, it just heaps cruelty upon misfortune.

mritchie712 3y ago

> Whether it’s envisioning their child while watching the professional sports league drafts on TV or banking on college athletic or talent-based scholarships, 87% of parents with a kid involved in a competitive extracurricular said the activity could lead to income for their child (up from 80% of parents who said the same in the April 2019 survey). Dads are more likely than moms (92% versus 79%) to bet on their kids’ activities becoming lucrative. This is wild. Common sense should tell you getting drafted is a ridiculous thing to bank on and a quick google will tell you "Fewer than 2 percent of high school student-athletes are offered athletic scholarships"[0] 0 - https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/scholarship-facts https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/s...

xmprt 3y ago
For a lot of parents it's as simple as having another extracurricular activity on your college applications which can help you get into a better school. When that's a factor, then it makes the calculus a lot simpler. You don't need to bet on ridiculous odds like getting drafted or an athletic scholarship.
- jrumbut 3y ago
  There are about 180,000 athletic scholarships too. There is certainly a lot of competition to win one, but it's not an unreasonable dream for a talented/hardworking youth.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 3y ago
    If you can manage good academic progress while also earning an athletic scholarship, that’s fantastic. Shoot for the moon, get into a good school, all sorts of doors will be opened for you. If your athletic focus comes at the cost of poor academic performance, that’s a disaster. Sure, you can find a university that doesn’t care about whether you’re learning anything in class, but you’re probably going to struggle after you graduate.
nradov 3y ago

mlhpdx 3y ago

When I was in school I played soccer and pole vaulted, at very little cost (which was good as I was one of seven children raised by a single mom - very modest means). The statistics are pretty clear that non-academic activities aren’t necessarily available to those in similar situations today. That is a shame. I pay a lot in taxes for education (and activities). I live in a state where it’s a constitutional obligation to provide an education and yet, schools aren’t educating student any better today than back then. And, they seem to be doing less overall. A someone who did volunteer teaching for 4 years I know there are wonderful people involved, but it just doesn’t seem to be functioning well overall. It’s not a great situation for kids or parents today.

unnamed76ri 3y ago

Parent of a kid who has a horse…it is in the $6-7k range annually. It is frankly embarrassing and at times has been nearly crippling financially. My spouse is one who believes in the scholarship thing.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

QuarterReptile 3y ago

Sports are a relatively plug-and-play way to direct your kids in some pursuit. You don't have to fight the culture nearly as much. And if you want your kids to work hard on their pursuits, you can pay your way into a whole system with professional coaches, regular competition, and 20+ hours per week chasing something hard. Similar ecosystems around music, ancient languages, math, or anything else seem rare or non-existent. So you may have to build the whole pathway yourself every night after you get home from work and get the kids to bed.

GuB-42 3y ago

Kids’ competitive activities don't lead to debt by themselves, it is an overall thing. You go in debt when you spend more than you earn. So what causes the debt? The expensive activities for the kids? The new car? The big house? The latest tech gadgets? You could point at any one of these to be the cause of the debt, but the reality is simply overspending. Maybe there is a small portion of parents you get in debt for their kids activity because it is an absolute priority and they already did everything they could have done to reduce spending elsewhere, but it is certainly not 8/10.