10 ms·

MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World

177 points by EA-3167 3y ago

n4r9 3y ago
My impression is that healing from a deeply traumatic episode is much easier when you feel security, openness, and self-love. MDMA provides a big boost to all of these, and therapists were finding it extremely useful in the ~~1960's~~ [edit] 1970's, so it's not surprising that it's finding its way back to serious consideration after years of being pushed to the underground. BTW the article is a little US-centric; in the UK it's usually called Mandy or MD ("emdee") rather than Molly.
- sysadm1n 3y ago
  > it's finding its way back to serious consideration after years of being pushed to the underground It was used in a therapy-like way for all those (underground) years, not strictly for dancing/clubs/house parties. People had informal couples therapy, or trauma therapy where painful memories surfaced and they could be dealt with in a safe space free of inhibitions. Only now it's more formal and the doctors are involved.
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    It was surprising how often I'd be talking to a _complete stranger_ at a nightclub and we'd just start sharing childhood traumatic experiences in between trying to id tracks.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- brandall10 3y ago
  Agreed. Small correction - it wasn't known to be used in any therapeutic capacity until the late 70s after Alexander Shulgin first synthesized it and exposed it to broader academic circles.
  - n4r9 3y ago
    Thanks - edited.
  - neuromanser 3y ago
    I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think a clarification is warranted. MDMA was first synthesized in 1912, trialled for non-psychotherapy uses then and again in 1950s, and Shulgin synthesized it in 1965. From Wikipedia: > MDMA was first synthesized in 1912 by Merck chemist Anton Köllisch. At the time, Merck was interested in developing substances that stopped abnormal bleeding. > Alexander Shulgin reported he synthesized MDMA in 1965 […], but did not test the psychoactivity of the compound at this time. > Shulgin occasionally used MDMA for relaxation, […] and gave the drug to friends, researchers, and others who he thought could benefit from it.[…]. When [Leo Zeff, a psychotherapist who had been known to use psychedelic substances in his practice] tried the drug in 1977, Zeff was impressed with the effects of MDMA and came out of his semi-retirement to promote its use in therapy.
    - brandall10 3y ago
      Thanks for the correction. I read PikHAL ~25 years ago and don't recall that detail, though I remember him being aware of the substance and having heard of various reports of others consuming it back to about '70 or so. That said, it seems he first consumed it in Sept '76 and that event put it in psychotherapy circles.
- osullivj 3y ago
  UK too; my first dose was in 88, we called it E or Ecstasy then. Never heard it called Mandy in the UK, but then I'm 50+.
- rachelnuwer 3y ago
  Author of the book that the review article is about here: The book does get deep into the British scene and the pivotal role it's played over the years in terms of culture, science and prohibition. UK is definitely a crucial part of MDMA's story!
empath-nirvana 3y ago
I literally think that MDMA saved my life. I was absolutely _broken_ when I came out of high school -- bullied at home and at school just relentlessly for 12 years. Completely unable to relate to other human beings, afraid of being touched, never had a girl friend or any kind of real friendship. Going to rave and having people -- strangers! -- just hug me, and listen to me, and I'd listen to them and we could just talk to each other like normal people without this undercurrent of constant anxiety and fear of rejection. It was a miracle to me. And I mean that in both the banal sense and the religious sense. It wasn't just the interpersonal aspects of it, but like -- having these feelings of joy and happiness and seeing the beauty of the world wash over me in almost an overwhelming way despite the fact that absolutely _nothing_ had really changed about the world made me understand how much of my own unhappiness was internal, that i could _choose_ to see the world in a better light all the time -- not just when I was on drugs, but at any time, it was just a matter of perspective, and something that you have some level of control over. I went from being someone who was almost completely isolated and withdrawn to learning how to DJ, to DJing at the _very same club_ that opened the world to me. I had a girlfriend within a few months, I had dozens of friends, I had a better paying job within a year, largely through connections I made at the club. I honestly think I'd have just turned into a homeless alcoholic or something without that experience. I have a hard time even imagining where I'd have ended up. I barely recognize the person that walked into that club the first night. It's a tragedy that this drug isn't available to more people. I overdid it. A lot of people over did it, but 20 years later I don't regret any of it for a moment, even the bad nights.
- davidguetta 3y ago
  Really good experience myself here. The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be adressed by education, not just mindlessly prohibit everything (even tho it's not too bad to forbid stuff somethimes).
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    > The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be adressed by education Who is to say what's "abuse" really. Why would taking MDMA in a therapist chair be "medicine" and taking it and dancing all night long be "abuse"? Because that's how they're going to try and control it. I'm not even sure which would be healthier for you or more effective. Like, obviously there's a point where it's too much, but if you let the "medical establishment" define it, it'll definitely be defined as any point in which people might actually be having fun.
siva7 3y ago
MDMA changed my life in some ways, for better or worse. It definitely helped in beating some anxiety.
- stephenitis 3y ago
  can you describe worse? A common side effect I've seen with people who use it too often is that it can cause unreasonable expectations of happiness for some people who have difficulty coping with happy moments passing.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Careful selling this shit, Capitalists! Any drug that heals trauma makes people content and secure. They won't be addicted to alcohol, tobacco, television, mindless games, or any of the other drugs for sale. They'll settle for what they have, stop chasing rainbows of wealth and fame. Now they won't work in your factories 24/7, running an economy that nobody really needs. They'll stop listening to all the fear-mongering propaganda. They'll start talking to each other, face to face, bypassing all the apparatus of interpersonal surveillance. They'll start helping each other, cutting dependency on your mediation. You can't sell them crap they don't need for money they don't have. And if they stop living in debt and fear, now you can't control them. There's a reason we have a "War on drugs".
- Euphorbium 3y ago
  The alternative is mushrooms, and that REALLY makes people content and turns people away from capitalism. So they will take what they can.
  - lezojeda 3y ago
    Never had a really good trip on mushrooms, I really envy all those that can enjoy them. I always end up digging up the worst traumas and feeling no reason to live.
    - jamal-kumar 3y ago
      I'd seek therapy to resolve that, maybe psychedelic integration therapy if the re-traumatization is an issue you've faced after having these experiences. I've been sending people to a clinic which has this as a focus - they definitely don't administer psychedelics but they do a pretty good at helping people who have gone through such difficult experiences. You can find practitioners who can help in your area through this site [1] [1] https://psychedelic.support/ https://psychedelic.support/
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    MDMA has a dark side : the next morning can be really depressing for your sérotonine vacuumed brain. With mushroom I never had that. I stopped taking MD years ago because of how I felt afterward.
jamal-kumar 3y ago
I read this book written by one of the psychologists who was doing early research into psychedelic therapy when I was a kid called "Thanatos To Eros, 35 Years of Psychedelic Exploration" and it was really interesting. It's still available on maps.org (Although they kind of muntzed the formatting) [1] but the takeaway is that besides MDMA there's a whole range of other substances with a variety of therapeutic merits to explore. MDMA may hit a sort of sweet-spot quality for more people to tolerate it without adverse reaction kind of sweet spot, however I think the substance Stolaroff was most interested in for enhancement of insight was actually very small doses of 2c-e (you can ctrl+f for it in the link), which I think is something we might end up seeing in more scientific investigations as interest grows. [1] https://maps.org/2014/11/19/thanatos-to-eros-35-years-of-psychedelic-exploration/ https://maps.org/2014/11/19/thanatos-to-eros-35-years-of-psy...
- fer 3y ago
  Having done both MDMA and 2C-E (mid 00s were pretty good in that sense), in various amounts, I'm not sure I'd agree (or disagree, really). Threshold dosages had noticeable impacts in vision or mindset, but I didn't feel anything particularly introspective/exploratory. That wasn't until higher dosages, and only then I felt like it was a rollercoaster, in the sense of intense but very well psychologically attached to the rails. But then again, in those dosages I could hear the echo of my own voice with 15s delay, and just going to the toilet was an adventure full of unexpected events, so I'm not sure how a therapist can guide that either. MDMA on the other hand softens everything from the smaller doses to the heavy ones, at least until the amphetamine edge starts to take hold.
  - jamal-kumar 3y ago
    What I remember reading about small doses of 2c-e (Maybe in this book, maybe somewhere else - My interests have shifted a ton over the years to other things) is that the insight enhancement is something that actually ends up happening in the aftermath of the primary effects of the drug. Day after and things start hitting differently kind of effect, that you have to go into with intention in a way.
  - 3y ago
FredPret 3y ago
DO NOT SELF-MEDICATE. I've seen people do this (with this and other drugs) and it can totally break people. I'm glad someone out there is happier than they were now, but it's insanely risky to apply untested foreign chemicals directly into your decision-making apparatus and the seat of your consciousness.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Actually, go ahead and do. Maybe you get serotonin syndrome, maybe you save your life. We’re an aggregate organism and some of the individuals will always be on the edge of experimentation. It’s just the nature of the thing. Be yourself. Be free. Some of us will die, some of us will be ruined, but the rest of us will be more informed.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    We are now more informed. And I'm imparting the information I have gathered from the experiments of others that I have observed. It's not worth the risk. You want to self-medicate? Do it with chemicals produced inside your body. Meditate, do a triathlon, lift weights, become a health-food nut, get some sun, find some opportunity for socialization, do that sauna + cold plunge thing, whatever. All of it is safer than swallowing/snorting/injecting some concoction that may or may not break your brain.
    - xp84 3y ago
      I guess you're being downvoted by people who view your advice as impinging on "freedom," but I think you're not unfounded. It's worth pointing out that the fact you can only get these drugs from the black market presently does introduce a whole separate "you don't know what you're getting" aspect to this. So even if you believe MDMA is a cure-all and you're 100% right, do you actually know that it is real? It's a bummer, but everyone does need to weigh that in their decision if they want to keep themselves safe.
      - stephenitis 3y ago
Synaesthesia 3y ago
MDMA can be incredibly therapeutic when used judiciously and responsibly. It is a remarkable anti-depressant which works very quickly, it can really open you up to exploring difficult issues in your life. It's not without its risks, and it's by no means a panacea. But still, worthy of further study and investigation.
localplume 3y ago
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stranded22 3y ago
I took various drugs as a teenager but I fell in love with mdma - specifically building a very strong, close nit friendship group with my girlfriend and 2 friends (and another group occasionally). It helped my girlfriend (now wife) move through some childhood trauma as well as eating disorders too. Wasn’t so much into clubs - had a few parties in woods which were mind blowing (fire jugglers in fields was a highlight). Downsides were more that I didn’t put as much time or care into side projects whilst at university- and having to deal with dodgy people to get hold of it. Zero reasons why it is illegal (class A, no less), but alcohol is fully accepted.
eagleinparadise 3y ago
It's too bad as a society we can't embrace psychedelics (yet). Yes, it's super fun and there is potential for abuse. But we are *missing* out on so much learning... of ourselves, how to improve things in society, on how to heal, and be better humans to each other. Anyone who has experience with psychs knows what I'm trying to say. I think people become more kind and caring after these kinds of experiences. It'd be nice to see western culture adapt it's own version "shaman" culture that emphasizes deep exploration of ones self. We're getting closer to this very slowly (more people doing therapy, more interest in wellness, early glimpses of in-person psychedelic "healthcare").
flanked-evergl 3y ago
I'm highly sceptical of the suggestion that if we just all take MDMA the increasingly fractured world will somehow re-unite. I think reading Karl Popper's open society and its enemies will be much more productive, as that will help you understand the reason for the division. It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA.
- kortex 3y ago
  > if we just all take MDMA the increasingly fractured world will somehow re-unite. Seems like a strawman. No one (except for maybe that one spunyun wook at the festival whose life and identity revolves around entheogens and entactogens) is seriously suggesting we all just have to take some Soma and sing kumbaya. These are useful tools, which need to be applied in the right context (not specifically clinical, maybe Burning Man is the right context) to be efficacious. > It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA. Again, weird strawman. That's like saying you can't fix asthma with albuterol/budesonide because it wasn't created by an albuterol or budesonide deficiency. Dents in a car aren't caused by a lack of dent-pullers. Quite often the solution is not the exact inverse of the cause. Lateral problem solving is key.
  - ainiriand 3y ago
    I agree with that perspective. I did some mdma when young but because I was fairly happy back then it never had any healing effect for me. I believe that it could be powerful for some people sometimes and I never had any sort of substance dependency.
wutwutwat 3y ago
It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated with it. Yet folks often don't even realize the "MA" in "MDMA" is in fact, methamphetamine. Meth is just a stimulant, while MDMA is a psychedelic, making you trip. It's weird that the stimulant has such a bad reputation, but not the one that literally will cause you to see and experience things that do not exist, which has that big ole junkie drug meth in it even! Not defending meth, or any drug for that matter. I'm just pointing out the weird bias we have with things. For some reason meth is an outcask, yet many "acceptable" drugs include meth and people don't even really know that. Take meth to a party and get kicked out or be looked at like a junkie. Take MDMA to a party and you're a hero. Even with drugs, we find a way to create a pecking order
- tredre3 3y ago
  > It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated with it. That's because having similar names does not make them similar in any way. "M D M A" isn't a list of ingredients, it doesn't contain methamphetamine. They have some chemical similarity, but their effects are very different. Once you understand this, you can see that people chastising meth but liking mdma aren't being hypocrites.
  - kortex 3y ago
    > That's because having similar names does not make them similar in any way. Well yes, but actually no. Right answer, but the work to get there is a little off. MDMA is MethyleneDioxy MethAmphetamine. And MethAMPhetAmine is n-methyl alpha-methyl phenethylamine (chemists love portmanteaus). So it's literally a methamphetamine core with a methylenedioxy bridge. That structural similarity gives MDMA some similarity in activity to MA, which itself works due to its similarly to dopamine and epinephrine. Structural similarities give you a good guess but you really have to test the binding affinities on their own. There are substituted phenethylamines which have barely any activity. MA itself has found therapeutic uses in treating ADHD and narcolepsy. Side note: this is why NO drug should ever be "Schedule I - no medical uses". How can you ever predict a lack of future medical uses? Cannabis, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, ibogaine, these have all found therapeutic uses, yet are sched I.
orasis 3y ago
“I Feel Love” was a fantastic book, written in a very professional journalistic tone. It sits well along side Michael Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind”.
- ngai_aku 3y ago
  I really enjoyed Pollan’s book, so I just placed a hold for “I Feel Love”. Thanks for the recommendation!
davmre 3y ago
Before trying MDMA I had mostly written it off as a feel-good drug: an artificial high like cocaine or meth, useful only for escapism. Why bother chasing that sort of experience? But now having tried most of the commonly used psychedelics, I've come to believe that MDMA is the most profound of them all. MDMA does feel good, of course, but it's not escapist. It’s a deep, wholesome, fundamentally healing sort of goodness. It is unconditional, redeeming love and forgiveness — the core of Christian spirituality. It is the revelation that you really are lovable, even your darkest, hidden parts, and that you are capable of love. Debatably, there is no more profound lesson to be learned about the human condition. It really is magical. Even so, the experience is surprisingly subtle. It doesn't particularly force positive feelings ("ecstasy" is a total misnomer, IMHO). At first you don't necessarily even notice any effect at all, maybe just a mildly better-than-average mood. But gradually it becomes clear that this subtle sense of well-being is infinitely deep: nothing you might experience can possibly disturb it. All sense of shame and self-judgement, fear of rejection, hang-ups that get in the way of connecting with people --- all dissolve immediately on contact. And from that sense of absolute safety, the capacity to love emerges naturally. The drug doesn't generate it. It just helps you get out of your own way. I've taken MDMA a few times now just on my own at home (lacking a rave community, although I'm sure that's a fantastic experience also), where it's relatively easy to implement harm reduction measures: stay hydrated, take protective supplements, get a full night's sleep before and after, and wait multiple months between doses (doing all these, I've never experienced a ‘hangover’, just a positive afterglow). I've found the most rewarding results from trying to keep my attention grounded in bodily sensation, gently returning to the body whenever I notice I've become lost in thought. Often, difficult memories or associations will surface of their own accord, sensing that it's safe to do so, and seeing them from a loving perspective can be immensely healing. I really hope we can eventually find our way to making this experience legally and safely available to everyone who wants it. Yes, MDMA has sharp edges; it's not as physiologically benign as the classic psychedelics, but it's not addictive and it can be used safely. Not everyone has good experiences every time, but compared to the classical psychedelics, it's much more reliably positive. It apparently has some effectiveness as a medicine for specific illnesses like PTSD, but IMHO the real condition it treats is much broader: the universal human condition of feeling more walled off than we'd like to be. One last galaxy-brain thought: if we ever figure out a way to replicate MDMA's pro-social effects that people could safely use on a day-to-day basis, it might be the most valuable thing we ever invent. One could even see it as the metaphorical second coming of Jesus, his kingdom on earth achieved through purely secular means. How's that for a career goal? :-)
MailNerd 3y ago
Great book, recommended read.

177 points by EA-3167 3y ago

n4r9 3y ago

My impression is that healing from a deeply traumatic episode is much easier when you feel security, openness, and self-love. MDMA provides a big boost to all of these, and therapists were finding it extremely useful in the ~~1960's~~ [edit] 1970's, so it's not surprising that it's finding its way back to serious consideration after years of being pushed to the underground. BTW the article is a little US-centric; in the UK it's usually called Mandy or MD ("emdee") rather than Molly.

sysadm1n 3y ago
> it's finding its way back to serious consideration after years of being pushed to the underground It was used in a therapy-like way for all those (underground) years, not strictly for dancing/clubs/house parties. People had informal couples therapy, or trauma therapy where painful memories surfaced and they could be dealt with in a safe space free of inhibitions. Only now it's more formal and the doctors are involved.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  It was surprising how often I'd be talking to a _complete stranger_ at a nightclub and we'd just start sharing childhood traumatic experiences in between trying to id tracks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
brandall10 3y ago
Agreed. Small correction - it wasn't known to be used in any therapeutic capacity until the late 70s after Alexander Shulgin first synthesized it and exposed it to broader academic circles.
- n4r9 3y ago
  Thanks - edited.
- neuromanser 3y ago
  I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think a clarification is warranted. MDMA was first synthesized in 1912, trialled for non-psychotherapy uses then and again in 1950s, and Shulgin synthesized it in 1965. From Wikipedia: > MDMA was first synthesized in 1912 by Merck chemist Anton Köllisch. At the time, Merck was interested in developing substances that stopped abnormal bleeding. > Alexander Shulgin reported he synthesized MDMA in 1965 […], but did not test the psychoactivity of the compound at this time. > Shulgin occasionally used MDMA for relaxation, […] and gave the drug to friends, researchers, and others who he thought could benefit from it.[…]. When [Leo Zeff, a psychotherapist who had been known to use psychedelic substances in his practice] tried the drug in 1977, Zeff was impressed with the effects of MDMA and came out of his semi-retirement to promote its use in therapy.
  - brandall10 3y ago
    Thanks for the correction. I read PikHAL ~25 years ago and don't recall that detail, though I remember him being aware of the substance and having heard of various reports of others consuming it back to about '70 or so. That said, it seems he first consumed it in Sept '76 and that event put it in psychotherapy circles.
osullivj 3y ago
UK too; my first dose was in 88, we called it E or Ecstasy then. Never heard it called Mandy in the UK, but then I'm 50+.
rachelnuwer 3y ago
Author of the book that the review article is about here: The book does get deep into the British scene and the pivotal role it's played over the years in terms of culture, science and prohibition. UK is definitely a crucial part of MDMA's story!

empath-nirvana 3y ago

I literally think that MDMA saved my life. I was absolutely _broken_ when I came out of high school -- bullied at home and at school just relentlessly for 12 years. Completely unable to relate to other human beings, afraid of being touched, never had a girl friend or any kind of real friendship. Going to rave and having people -- strangers! -- just hug me, and listen to me, and I'd listen to them and we could just talk to each other like normal people without this undercurrent of constant anxiety and fear of rejection. It was a miracle to me. And I mean that in both the banal sense and the religious sense. It wasn't just the interpersonal aspects of it, but like -- having these feelings of joy and happiness and seeing the beauty of the world wash over me in almost an overwhelming way despite the fact that absolutely _nothing_ had really changed about the world made me understand how much of my own unhappiness was internal, that i could _choose_ to see the world in a better light all the time -- not just when I was on drugs, but at any time, it was just a matter of perspective, and something that you have some level of control over. I went from being someone who was almost completely isolated and withdrawn to learning how to DJ, to DJing at the _very same club_ that opened the world to me. I had a girlfriend within a few months, I had dozens of friends, I had a better paying job within a year, largely through connections I made at the club. I honestly think I'd have just turned into a homeless alcoholic or something without that experience. I have a hard time even imagining where I'd have ended up. I barely recognize the person that walked into that club the first night. It's a tragedy that this drug isn't available to more people. I overdid it. A lot of people over did it, but 20 years later I don't regret any of it for a moment, even the bad nights.

davidguetta 3y ago
Really good experience myself here. The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be adressed by education, not just mindlessly prohibit everything (even tho it's not too bad to forbid stuff somethimes).
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  > The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be adressed by education Who is to say what's "abuse" really. Why would taking MDMA in a therapist chair be "medicine" and taking it and dancing all night long be "abuse"? Because that's how they're going to try and control it. I'm not even sure which would be healthier for you or more effective. Like, obviously there's a point where it's too much, but if you let the "medical establishment" define it, it'll definitely be defined as any point in which people might actually be having fun.

siva7 3y ago

MDMA changed my life in some ways, for better or worse. It definitely helped in beating some anxiety.

stephenitis 3y ago
can you describe worse? A common side effect I've seen with people who use it too often is that it can cause unreasonable expectations of happiness for some people who have difficulty coping with happy moments passing.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

Careful selling this shit, Capitalists! Any drug that heals trauma makes people content and secure. They won't be addicted to alcohol, tobacco, television, mindless games, or any of the other drugs for sale. They'll settle for what they have, stop chasing rainbows of wealth and fame. Now they won't work in your factories 24/7, running an economy that nobody really needs. They'll stop listening to all the fear-mongering propaganda. They'll start talking to each other, face to face, bypassing all the apparatus of interpersonal surveillance. They'll start helping each other, cutting dependency on your mediation. You can't sell them crap they don't need for money they don't have. And if they stop living in debt and fear, now you can't control them. There's a reason we have a "War on drugs".

Euphorbium 3y ago
The alternative is mushrooms, and that REALLY makes people content and turns people away from capitalism. So they will take what they can.
- lezojeda 3y ago
  Never had a really good trip on mushrooms, I really envy all those that can enjoy them. I always end up digging up the worst traumas and feeling no reason to live.
  - jamal-kumar 3y ago
    I'd seek therapy to resolve that, maybe psychedelic integration therapy if the re-traumatization is an issue you've faced after having these experiences. I've been sending people to a clinic which has this as a focus - they definitely don't administer psychedelics but they do a pretty good at helping people who have gone through such difficult experiences. You can find practitioners who can help in your area through this site [1] [1] https://psychedelic.support/ https://psychedelic.support/
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  MDMA has a dark side : the next morning can be really depressing for your sérotonine vacuumed brain. With mushroom I never had that. I stopped taking MD years ago because of how I felt afterward.

jamal-kumar 3y ago

I read this book written by one of the psychologists who was doing early research into psychedelic therapy when I was a kid called "Thanatos To Eros, 35 Years of Psychedelic Exploration" and it was really interesting. It's still available on maps.org (Although they kind of muntzed the formatting) [1] but the takeaway is that besides MDMA there's a whole range of other substances with a variety of therapeutic merits to explore. MDMA may hit a sort of sweet-spot quality for more people to tolerate it without adverse reaction kind of sweet spot, however I think the substance Stolaroff was most interested in for enhancement of insight was actually very small doses of 2c-e (you can ctrl+f for it in the link), which I think is something we might end up seeing in more scientific investigations as interest grows. [1] https://maps.org/2014/11/19/thanatos-to-eros-35-years-of-psychedelic-exploration/ https://maps.org/2014/11/19/thanatos-to-eros-35-years-of-psy...

fer 3y ago
Having done both MDMA and 2C-E (mid 00s were pretty good in that sense), in various amounts, I'm not sure I'd agree (or disagree, really). Threshold dosages had noticeable impacts in vision or mindset, but I didn't feel anything particularly introspective/exploratory. That wasn't until higher dosages, and only then I felt like it was a rollercoaster, in the sense of intense but very well psychologically attached to the rails. But then again, in those dosages I could hear the echo of my own voice with 15s delay, and just going to the toilet was an adventure full of unexpected events, so I'm not sure how a therapist can guide that either. MDMA on the other hand softens everything from the smaller doses to the heavy ones, at least until the amphetamine edge starts to take hold.
- jamal-kumar 3y ago
  What I remember reading about small doses of 2c-e (Maybe in this book, maybe somewhere else - My interests have shifted a ton over the years to other things) is that the insight enhancement is something that actually ends up happening in the aftermath of the primary effects of the drug. Day after and things start hitting differently kind of effect, that you have to go into with intention in a way.
- 3y ago

FredPret 3y ago

DO NOT SELF-MEDICATE. I've seen people do this (with this and other drugs) and it can totally break people. I'm glad someone out there is happier than they were now, but it's insanely risky to apply untested foreign chemicals directly into your decision-making apparatus and the seat of your consciousness.

renewiltord 3y ago
Actually, go ahead and do. Maybe you get serotonin syndrome, maybe you save your life. We’re an aggregate organism and some of the individuals will always be on the edge of experimentation. It’s just the nature of the thing. Be yourself. Be free. Some of us will die, some of us will be ruined, but the rest of us will be more informed.
- FredPret 3y ago
  We are now more informed. And I'm imparting the information I have gathered from the experiments of others that I have observed. It's not worth the risk. You want to self-medicate? Do it with chemicals produced inside your body. Meditate, do a triathlon, lift weights, become a health-food nut, get some sun, find some opportunity for socialization, do that sauna + cold plunge thing, whatever. All of it is safer than swallowing/snorting/injecting some concoction that may or may not break your brain.
  - xp84 3y ago
    I guess you're being downvoted by people who view your advice as impinging on "freedom," but I think you're not unfounded. It's worth pointing out that the fact you can only get these drugs from the black market presently does introduce a whole separate "you don't know what you're getting" aspect to this. So even if you believe MDMA is a cure-all and you're 100% right, do you actually know that it is real? It's a bummer, but everyone does need to weigh that in their decision if they want to keep themselves safe.
    - stephenitis 3y ago

Synaesthesia 3y ago

MDMA can be incredibly therapeutic when used judiciously and responsibly. It is a remarkable anti-depressant which works very quickly, it can really open you up to exploring difficult issues in your life. It's not without its risks, and it's by no means a panacea. But still, worthy of further study and investigation.

localplume 3y ago

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stranded22 3y ago

I took various drugs as a teenager but I fell in love with mdma - specifically building a very strong, close nit friendship group with my girlfriend and 2 friends (and another group occasionally). It helped my girlfriend (now wife) move through some childhood trauma as well as eating disorders too. Wasn’t so much into clubs - had a few parties in woods which were mind blowing (fire jugglers in fields was a highlight). Downsides were more that I didn’t put as much time or care into side projects whilst at university- and having to deal with dodgy people to get hold of it. Zero reasons why it is illegal (class A, no less), but alcohol is fully accepted.

eagleinparadise 3y ago

It's too bad as a society we can't embrace psychedelics (yet). Yes, it's super fun and there is potential for abuse. But we are *missing* out on so much learning... of ourselves, how to improve things in society, on how to heal, and be better humans to each other. Anyone who has experience with psychs knows what I'm trying to say. I think people become more kind and caring after these kinds of experiences. It'd be nice to see western culture adapt it's own version "shaman" culture that emphasizes deep exploration of ones self. We're getting closer to this very slowly (more people doing therapy, more interest in wellness, early glimpses of in-person psychedelic "healthcare").

flanked-evergl 3y ago

I'm highly sceptical of the suggestion that if we just all take MDMA the increasingly fractured world will somehow re-unite. I think reading Karl Popper's open society and its enemies will be much more productive, as that will help you understand the reason for the division. It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA.

kortex 3y ago
> if we just all take MDMA the increasingly fractured world will somehow re-unite. Seems like a strawman. No one (except for maybe that one spunyun wook at the festival whose life and identity revolves around entheogens and entactogens) is seriously suggesting we all just have to take some Soma and sing kumbaya. These are useful tools, which need to be applied in the right context (not specifically clinical, maybe Burning Man is the right context) to be efficacious. > It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA. Again, weird strawman. That's like saying you can't fix asthma with albuterol/budesonide because it wasn't created by an albuterol or budesonide deficiency. Dents in a car aren't caused by a lack of dent-pullers. Quite often the solution is not the exact inverse of the cause. Lateral problem solving is key.
- ainiriand 3y ago
  I agree with that perspective. I did some mdma when young but because I was fairly happy back then it never had any healing effect for me. I believe that it could be powerful for some people sometimes and I never had any sort of substance dependency.

wutwutwat 3y ago

It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated with it. Yet folks often don't even realize the "MA" in "MDMA" is in fact, methamphetamine. Meth is just a stimulant, while MDMA is a psychedelic, making you trip. It's weird that the stimulant has such a bad reputation, but not the one that literally will cause you to see and experience things that do not exist, which has that big ole junkie drug meth in it even! Not defending meth, or any drug for that matter. I'm just pointing out the weird bias we have with things. For some reason meth is an outcask, yet many "acceptable" drugs include meth and people don't even really know that. Take meth to a party and get kicked out or be looked at like a junkie. Take MDMA to a party and you're a hero. Even with drugs, we find a way to create a pecking order

tredre3 3y ago
> It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated with it. That's because having similar names does not make them similar in any way. "M D M A" isn't a list of ingredients, it doesn't contain methamphetamine. They have some chemical similarity, but their effects are very different. Once you understand this, you can see that people chastising meth but liking mdma aren't being hypocrites.
- kortex 3y ago
  > That's because having similar names does not make them similar in any way. Well yes, but actually no. Right answer, but the work to get there is a little off. MDMA is MethyleneDioxy MethAmphetamine. And MethAMPhetAmine is n-methyl alpha-methyl phenethylamine (chemists love portmanteaus). So it's literally a methamphetamine core with a methylenedioxy bridge. That structural similarity gives MDMA some similarity in activity to MA, which itself works due to its similarly to dopamine and epinephrine. Structural similarities give you a good guess but you really have to test the binding affinities on their own. There are substituted phenethylamines which have barely any activity. MA itself has found therapeutic uses in treating ADHD and narcolepsy. Side note: this is why NO drug should ever be "Schedule I - no medical uses". How can you ever predict a lack of future medical uses? Cannabis, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, ibogaine, these have all found therapeutic uses, yet are sched I.

orasis 3y ago

“I Feel Love” was a fantastic book, written in a very professional journalistic tone. It sits well along side Michael Pollan’s “How to Change Your Mind”.

ngai_aku 3y ago
I really enjoyed Pollan’s book, so I just placed a hold for “I Feel Love”. Thanks for the recommendation!

davmre 3y ago

Before trying MDMA I had mostly written it off as a feel-good drug: an artificial high like cocaine or meth, useful only for escapism. Why bother chasing that sort of experience? But now having tried most of the commonly used psychedelics, I've come to believe that MDMA is the most profound of them all. MDMA does feel good, of course, but it's not escapist. It’s a deep, wholesome, fundamentally healing sort of goodness. It is unconditional, redeeming love and forgiveness — the core of Christian spirituality. It is the revelation that you really are lovable, even your darkest, hidden parts, and that you are capable of love. Debatably, there is no more profound lesson to be learned about the human condition. It really is magical. Even so, the experience is surprisingly subtle. It doesn't particularly force positive feelings ("ecstasy" is a total misnomer, IMHO). At first you don't necessarily even notice any effect at all, maybe just a mildly better-than-average mood. But gradually it becomes clear that this subtle sense of well-being is infinitely deep: nothing you might experience can possibly disturb it. All sense of shame and self-judgement, fear of rejection, hang-ups that get in the way of connecting with people --- all dissolve immediately on contact. And from that sense of absolute safety, the capacity to love emerges naturally. The drug doesn't generate it. It just helps you get out of your own way. I've taken MDMA a few times now just on my own at home (lacking a rave community, although I'm sure that's a fantastic experience also), where it's relatively easy to implement harm reduction measures: stay hydrated, take protective supplements, get a full night's sleep before and after, and wait multiple months between doses (doing all these, I've never experienced a ‘hangover’, just a positive afterglow). I've found the most rewarding results from trying to keep my attention grounded in bodily sensation, gently returning to the body whenever I notice I've become lost in thought. Often, difficult memories or associations will surface of their own accord, sensing that it's safe to do so, and seeing them from a loving perspective can be immensely healing. I really hope we can eventually find our way to making this experience legally and safely available to everyone who wants it. Yes, MDMA has sharp edges; it's not as physiologically benign as the classic psychedelics, but it's not addictive and it can be used safely. Not everyone has good experiences every time, but compared to the classical psychedelics, it's much more reliably positive. It apparently has some effectiveness as a medicine for specific illnesses like PTSD, but IMHO the real condition it treats is much broader: the universal human condition of feeling more walled off than we'd like to be. One last galaxy-brain thought: if we ever figure out a way to replicate MDMA's pro-social effects that people could safely use on a day-to-day basis, it might be the most valuable thing we ever invent. One could even see it as the metaphorical second coming of Jesus, his kingdom on earth achieved through purely secular means. How's that for a career goal? :-)

MailNerd 3y ago

Great book, recommended read.