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It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspec

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law enforcement concerns on social media or provide guidance to each other if confronted by an officer. Also, they will have no demonstrated interest in criminal cases involving claims of LARP. If police officers are going after LARPers then LARPers will start to talk about what to do in those cases. > The foremost distinction between LARPers and violent extremists is that genuine role players will not care whether others are watching. They may even embrace third-party observation, such as nonplayer characters or a general audience. After all, LARP is a performance. Lots of people are embarrassed to do things in public, a police officer coming across some people LARPing in private shouldn't be cause for investigation.

georgeecollins 3y ago
I agree with the top post that the title confused me. But reading the article I came away with a very different take than you. This person is trying to define the difference between LARPing and being terrorist. That may be obvious to someone who knows LARPers, but not everyone does. I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it. But LARPing shouldn't be an excuse for people who want to don real tactical gear and weapons and plan mayhem.
- Jensson 3y ago
  > I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it. But now with these guidelines police has a reason to go after them. Something like: "I just followed these guidelines, it says you are showing terrorist signs and aren't real LARPers". They didn't do that before, but guidelines like these changes behavior and can easily make things worse.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    You're being histrionic. Nobody is coming for your LotR LARP group. These guidelines are literally an attempt to distinguish actual terrorists from people who insist on pretending to be terrorists. It's as much good faith as you can hope for from the government, considering the domain. None of this applies to you even if you're in the park wearing full Orc battlegear, are belligerent, drunk in public, and urinate on the arresting officer. Here's how low the bar is: > Among violent extremists, there may be online discussions about and guidance in using LARP as an excuse during encounters with law enforcement, Actual LARPers don't need to be reminded to tell cops that they're LARPing. The bar is that fucking low. They'll even accept lorebooks and stats sheets as proof.
  - text0404 3y ago
    What motivation do they have to do this? Are you talking about, like, Civil War re-enactors? Pretty sure the police aren't going to roll up on some dudes in wigs and toy bayonets in a park. Those people usually get permits for that kind of thing anyways. If you're part of a group with a manifesto, ordering weapons and explosives and doing practice drills to take down the US government, then yeah... it's highly likely that the feds are going to pay attention.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      > If you're part of a group with a manifesto, ordering weapons and explosives and doing practice drills to take down the US government, then yeah... it's highly likely that the feds are going to pay attention. And in those cases the "I was just LARPing" defense already doesn't work. This document will not help catch criminals since in clear cases they are already caught, all it does is raise more suspicion against genuine LARPing.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        >: will not help catch criminals since in clear cases they are already caught ??? Yea, I can tell you've never actually worked around any real life investigations before. The difficulty with any real life situation is in a large enough group there will be some portion of the 'fakers' that are actually really motivated to commit illegal actions. Even online this issue occurs with forms that mock the stupidity of other groups, flat earthers being a great example. If left unchecked a forum can turn from satire to true believers.
- falcolas 3y ago
  > But LARPing shouldn't be an excuse for people who want to don real tactical gear and weapons and plan mayhem. Just saw a video talking a bit facetiously about this. The question is, "What's the difference between Paintball and LARPing?" Dressing up and using made-up names and speaking specialized terminology and engaging in make-believe combat... They decided there is no difference. (This could just as easily be airsoft or paint markers for regular guns, to be clear.)
  - jjk166 3y ago
    At the end of the day there is no clear boundary between simulation for fun and for practice, the real question is what are you simulating. If some people were playing paintball in an accurate mockup of a government building, with one team taking up the positions of government guards and persons of interest, I don't think it's absurd to view that with some suspicion, particularly if there are other reasons to suspect it is more than just a game.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    I'd say paintball is like fencing. The actions are real, but the consequences are minimized by the equipment. I don't know much about LARPing but I have the impression that the actions there aren't real, just people saying things like "I strike at thee", "I parry and riposte" while pantomiming in slow motion. Wouldn't it be easy to tell a fencing duel from a LARP swordfight?
    - defrost 3y ago
      Serious LARP'rs make their own swords and chainmail .. the difference between a fencing duel and a LARP swordfight is the shear size of the blades and the weight of the chainmail. * eg: https://greycompany.com.au/ https://greycompany.com.au/ Now billed as "Historical Re-enactment focusing on the Dark Ages and Medieval times" and has been swinging swords and building trebuchets since ~ 1980(ish) at least. * Varies, of course, by LARP groups
    - falcolas 3y ago
      FWIW, compared to real sword fights, fencing (as practiced in the Olympics et.al.) isn’t generally considered to be “real”. Points scored from tapping toes, foils which bend unrealistically, artificially constrained movements, one winner when both stabbed each other milliseconds apart… But to your point, yes, most amateur sports could be boiled down to a form of LARPing given enough twisting.
- dmurray 3y ago
  The article acknowledges the possibility of people LARPing in a more contemporary context. I find this plausible, too: I can imagine groups of people getting together recreationally and fantasizing about how they're going to overthrow the fascist mayor, or kill all the Jews, or whatever else. With their real guns and tactical gear, because those look cool. With a badass logo, maybe with some skulls in it. But with no intention of ever actually acting out those fantasies.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Up until the point when they do something that crosses a line. eg: see youtube's Flattened Earth - The Glorious LARP (2021) Conspiracy Theory Historic Reenactment Metal Band Flattened Earth is Satire
  - mikelevins 3y ago
    See, for example, KAOS (Killing as an Organized Sport), also known as Killer or Assassin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)). It’s a multiplayer game in which players LARP as assassins out to kill targets that they receive secretly at the start of the game. The game has rules that describe how to simulate various forms of weapons and tactics (e.g. using a rolled-up sheet of paper as a dagger), and the rules are intended to help make it clear to observers that it’s just a game in which no actual crimes are intended, but it still involves people behaving in ways that could be misinterpreted. I played it some at VCU in the late 1970s. It was fun.
viscanti 3y ago
> These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them. It sounds like it might be a dangerous time to LARP about and plan terrorist acts. That could be very problematic for those who enjoy that as a recreational hobby. But in some ways there's a precedent for it with flying. Lots of people used to love to LARP about taking a bomb on a plane and that recreational activity has been significantly curtailed. Maybe we're heading for a world where it's no longer safe to plan the kidnapping of state or national government officials and then practice the steps necessary to carry it out, and where we can no longer joke about a bomb look-alike device that we want to take on airplanes.
- leereeves 3y ago
  > Lots of people used to love to LARP about taking a bomb on a plane Really?
  - aaron695 3y ago
    [dead]
  - djohnston 3y ago
    He’s making fun of the absurdity of the parent comment
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Was there a bombing plane map in Counter Strike? I vaguely remember a not so popular hostage map from way back the day...
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      The examples were absurd. Take lockpicking hobby as an example and it's a different picture.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
HWR_14 3y ago
This isn't "seek out LARPers". This is "how do I distinguish a group of people in the woods running around in camo as LARPers or violent extremists". They found the people first.
- Jensson 3y ago
  Stop and frisk isn't "seek out black people", they found the person first and then identified him as black and that means he is a risk and needs to be stopped and frisked. I don't really see the difference.
  - 00kevn 3y ago
    I didn't interpret the article as "investigate LARPers to make sure they're not domestic terrorists" so I don't really understand your take. Stop and Frisk has obvious racist origins, but the process starts with you suspecting someone of a crime and using that as a foot in the door. This seems the opposite guidance of "before you spend too much time investigating a group, try to build the case that they're not LARPing". Like the whole preface is that terrorists are trying to evade justice by saying it was all a game. Stop and Frisk wasn't created because people carrying weapons and committing crimes were pretending to be minorities so cops wouldn't be suspicious.
ethbr1 3y ago
You're looking at this from an assumption-of-LARPing. Imagine an FBI agent looking at evidence of Timothy McVeigh at a gun show in 1994. He's selling a flare gun he claims can 'shoot down an ATF helicopter' and ATF hats with bullet holes in them. When interviewed without charge, imagine McVeigh claims that it's part of his LARPing activities. What standards would you suggest that agent applies, in order to avoid a false negative?
- Karunamon 3y ago
  Another way to phrase that first sentence is "assumption of innocence". And while random commentators on the internet are not obligated to honor it, law enforcement is supposed to.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    >And while random commentators on the internet are not obligated to honor it, law enforcement is supposed to. This is not the standard actually applied to law enforcement in the US. You can be convicted of nothing other than resisting arrest. Resisting arrest for what? Literally does not matter. Also if you are arrested and found innocent, you are not compensated in any way for that arrest, which was clearly wrongful. Police in general are simply exempt from unlawful detention, except in cases of a well connected individual.
    - gs17 3y ago
      >Also if you are arrested and found innocent, you are not compensated in any way for that arrest, which was clearly wrongful. Not only that, there are likely fees and fines.
  - jjk166 3y ago
    Assumption of innocence is for the court. The prosecution and law enforcement are not supposed to assume innocence, they are supposed to do everything in their legal power to prove guilt. There are things they can't do without reasonable suspicion, or probable cause, but these are vastly lower thresholds.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MC68328 3y ago
Don't worry, the cops are not going to take away your robe and wizard hat. But if you're playing pretend with real weapons, you deserve scrutiny, regardless of your ideology.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  This: Guns are not toys, and if you are using guns as toys, don't be surprised if you get grilled.

georgeecollins 3y ago

I agree with the top post that the title confused me. But reading the article I came away with a very different take than you. This person is trying to define the difference between LARPing and being terrorist. That may be obvious to someone who knows LARPers, but not everyone does. I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it. But LARPing shouldn't be an excuse for people who want to don real tactical gear and weapons and plan mayhem.

Jensson 3y ago
> I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it. But now with these guidelines police has a reason to go after them. Something like: "I just followed these guidelines, it says you are showing terrorist signs and aren't real LARPers". They didn't do that before, but guidelines like these changes behavior and can easily make things worse.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  You're being histrionic. Nobody is coming for your LotR LARP group. These guidelines are literally an attempt to distinguish actual terrorists from people who insist on pretending to be terrorists. It's as much good faith as you can hope for from the government, considering the domain. None of this applies to you even if you're in the park wearing full Orc battlegear, are belligerent, drunk in public, and urinate on the arresting officer. Here's how low the bar is: > Among violent extremists, there may be online discussions about and guidance in using LARP as an excuse during encounters with law enforcement, Actual LARPers don't need to be reminded to tell cops that they're LARPing. The bar is that fucking low. They'll even accept lorebooks and stats sheets as proof.
- text0404 3y ago
  What motivation do they have to do this? Are you talking about, like, Civil War re-enactors? Pretty sure the police aren't going to roll up on some dudes in wigs and toy bayonets in a park. Those people usually get permits for that kind of thing anyways. If you're part of a group with a manifesto, ordering weapons and explosives and doing practice drills to take down the US government, then yeah... it's highly likely that the feds are going to pay attention.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    > If you're part of a group with a manifesto, ordering weapons and explosives and doing practice drills to take down the US government, then yeah... it's highly likely that the feds are going to pay attention. And in those cases the "I was just LARPing" defense already doesn't work. This document will not help catch criminals since in clear cases they are already caught, all it does is raise more suspicion against genuine LARPing.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      >: will not help catch criminals since in clear cases they are already caught ??? Yea, I can tell you've never actually worked around any real life investigations before. The difficulty with any real life situation is in a large enough group there will be some portion of the 'fakers' that are actually really motivated to commit illegal actions. Even online this issue occurs with forms that mock the stupidity of other groups, flat earthers being a great example. If left unchecked a forum can turn from satire to true believers.
falcolas 3y ago
> But LARPing shouldn't be an excuse for people who want to don real tactical gear and weapons and plan mayhem. Just saw a video talking a bit facetiously about this. The question is, "What's the difference between Paintball and LARPing?" Dressing up and using made-up names and speaking specialized terminology and engaging in make-believe combat... They decided there is no difference. (This could just as easily be airsoft or paint markers for regular guns, to be clear.)
- jjk166 3y ago
  At the end of the day there is no clear boundary between simulation for fun and for practice, the real question is what are you simulating. If some people were playing paintball in an accurate mockup of a government building, with one team taking up the positions of government guards and persons of interest, I don't think it's absurd to view that with some suspicion, particularly if there are other reasons to suspect it is more than just a game.
- leereeves 3y ago
  I'd say paintball is like fencing. The actions are real, but the consequences are minimized by the equipment. I don't know much about LARPing but I have the impression that the actions there aren't real, just people saying things like "I strike at thee", "I parry and riposte" while pantomiming in slow motion. Wouldn't it be easy to tell a fencing duel from a LARP swordfight?
  - defrost 3y ago
    Serious LARP'rs make their own swords and chainmail .. the difference between a fencing duel and a LARP swordfight is the shear size of the blades and the weight of the chainmail. * eg: https://greycompany.com.au/ https://greycompany.com.au/ Now billed as "Historical Re-enactment focusing on the Dark Ages and Medieval times" and has been swinging swords and building trebuchets since ~ 1980(ish) at least. * Varies, of course, by LARP groups
  - falcolas 3y ago
    FWIW, compared to real sword fights, fencing (as practiced in the Olympics et.al.) isn’t generally considered to be “real”. Points scored from tapping toes, foils which bend unrealistically, artificially constrained movements, one winner when both stabbed each other milliseconds apart… But to your point, yes, most amateur sports could be boiled down to a form of LARPing given enough twisting.
dmurray 3y ago
The article acknowledges the possibility of people LARPing in a more contemporary context. I find this plausible, too: I can imagine groups of people getting together recreationally and fantasizing about how they're going to overthrow the fascist mayor, or kill all the Jews, or whatever else. With their real guns and tactical gear, because those look cool. With a badass logo, maybe with some skulls in it. But with no intention of ever actually acting out those fantasies.
- defrost 3y ago
  Up until the point when they do something that crosses a line. eg: see youtube's Flattened Earth - The Glorious LARP (2021) Conspiracy Theory Historic Reenactment Metal Band Flattened Earth is Satire
- mikelevins 3y ago
  See, for example, KAOS (Killing as an Organized Sport), also known as Killer or Assassin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(game)). It’s a multiplayer game in which players LARP as assassins out to kill targets that they receive secretly at the start of the game. The game has rules that describe how to simulate various forms of weapons and tactics (e.g. using a rolled-up sheet of paper as a dagger), and the rules are intended to help make it clear to observers that it’s just a game in which no actual crimes are intended, but it still involves people behaving in ways that could be misinterpreted. I played it some at VCU in the late 1970s. It was fun.

viscanti 3y ago

> These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them. It sounds like it might be a dangerous time to LARP about and plan terrorist acts. That could be very problematic for those who enjoy that as a recreational hobby. But in some ways there's a precedent for it with flying. Lots of people used to love to LARP about taking a bomb on a plane and that recreational activity has been significantly curtailed. Maybe we're heading for a world where it's no longer safe to plan the kidnapping of state or national government officials and then practice the steps necessary to carry it out, and where we can no longer joke about a bomb look-alike device that we want to take on airplanes.

leereeves 3y ago
> Lots of people used to love to LARP about taking a bomb on a plane Really?
- aaron695 3y ago
  [dead]
- djohnston 3y ago
  He’s making fun of the absurdity of the parent comment
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Was there a bombing plane map in Counter Strike? I vaguely remember a not so popular hostage map from way back the day...
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    The examples were absurd. Take lockpicking hobby as an example and it's a different picture.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

HWR_14 3y ago

This isn't "seek out LARPers". This is "how do I distinguish a group of people in the woods running around in camo as LARPers or violent extremists". They found the people first.

Jensson 3y ago
Stop and frisk isn't "seek out black people", they found the person first and then identified him as black and that means he is a risk and needs to be stopped and frisked. I don't really see the difference.
- 00kevn 3y ago
  I didn't interpret the article as "investigate LARPers to make sure they're not domestic terrorists" so I don't really understand your take. Stop and Frisk has obvious racist origins, but the process starts with you suspecting someone of a crime and using that as a foot in the door. This seems the opposite guidance of "before you spend too much time investigating a group, try to build the case that they're not LARPing". Like the whole preface is that terrorists are trying to evade justice by saying it was all a game. Stop and Frisk wasn't created because people carrying weapons and committing crimes were pretending to be minorities so cops wouldn't be suspicious.

ethbr1 3y ago

You're looking at this from an assumption-of-LARPing. Imagine an FBI agent looking at evidence of Timothy McVeigh at a gun show in 1994. He's selling a flare gun he claims can 'shoot down an ATF helicopter' and ATF hats with bullet holes in them. When interviewed without charge, imagine McVeigh claims that it's part of his LARPing activities. What standards would you suggest that agent applies, in order to avoid a false negative?

Karunamon 3y ago
Another way to phrase that first sentence is "assumption of innocence". And while random commentators on the internet are not obligated to honor it, law enforcement is supposed to.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >And while random commentators on the internet are not obligated to honor it, law enforcement is supposed to. This is not the standard actually applied to law enforcement in the US. You can be convicted of nothing other than resisting arrest. Resisting arrest for what? Literally does not matter. Also if you are arrested and found innocent, you are not compensated in any way for that arrest, which was clearly wrongful. Police in general are simply exempt from unlawful detention, except in cases of a well connected individual.
  - gs17 3y ago
    >Also if you are arrested and found innocent, you are not compensated in any way for that arrest, which was clearly wrongful. Not only that, there are likely fees and fines.
- jjk166 3y ago
  Assumption of innocence is for the court. The prosecution and law enforcement are not supposed to assume innocence, they are supposed to do everything in their legal power to prove guilt. There are things they can't do without reasonable suspicion, or probable cause, but these are vastly lower thresholds.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MC68328 3y ago

Don't worry, the cops are not going to take away your robe and wizard hat. But if you're playing pretend with real weapons, you deserve scrutiny, regardless of your ideology.

mrguyorama 3y ago
This: Guns are not toys, and if you are using guns as toys, don't be surprised if you get grilled.