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A much better reason to not use iCloud Drive is due to the fact that it's not end to end encrypted. Everything you store in it is readable by Apple sysadmins,

by sneak 3y ago

A much better reason to not use iCloud Drive is due to the fact that it's not end to end encrypted. Everything you store in it is readable by Apple sysadmins, support reps, and anyone who can compel them (like the US government can, without a warrant now). Don't use non-e2ee services. (Yes, there is an opt-in e2ee for iCloud now. No, nobody is using it because it is off by default and buried in settings.) I use syncthing (e2ee, free software) to keep my files on all my machines. It has sane conflict handling and nice versioning backups. It even supports untrusted sync-only devices that never see plaintext so you can run a node on a vps or somewhere offsite safely.

aroman 3y ago
surely it’s easier to just click a button and turn on e2ee in icloud than change your entire cloud storage provider…
aaomidi 3y ago
If you’re reading this comment, you can also find out that you can turn on e2ee. (Maybe you should lead with that :P) iCloud Drive is like, one of the only providers that has e2ee.
- dannyphantom 3y ago
  On iOS: Settings > AppleID > iCloud > Advanced Data Protection You'll see 'Add Recovery Contact' and underneath it you'll see 'Recovery Key' 'Off>' Tap into it, agree to the notice, you'll get a 28 alphanumeric key and then re-enter that same key to finish the set-up.
  - photonerd 3y ago
    They really should have it use a pass phrase. Much easier to remember
fh9302 3y ago
How is manually turning on iCloud E2EE different to manually searching a provider that supports E2EE by default? This isn't like messaging where the other person also needs E2EE enabled.
- sneak 3y ago
  The difference is that you know the provider is willing to ship surveillance-enabling footguns. They don't regard e2ee as core and necessary functionality. Safe and secure providers will never touch the plaintext of any user ever, regardless of the user's configuration (or lack of it). An example (although not in the e2ee sense) is that time Dropbox allowed logins to any account with any password provided. It illustrates that having a basic test suite over authentication systems wasn't important to them.
sxg 3y ago
Worth noting a practical counter argument against e2ee: the vast majority of people are much more susceptible to losing all of their data because they forget or lose their encryption key compared to having their data compromised by admin staff or governments. While I'd love to turn on e2ee, I don't trust myself enough to not lose the encryption key.
- eviks 3y ago
  Then give the encryption key to a few people, there is at least 1 person you trust not to lose it?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Indeed, just print multiple copies on paper. The digital attack vector and physical one almost never intersect. I think it’s less about protecting yourself against targeted attack, and more as a defence gains snooping and physhing and some gathering dirt.
- idle_zealot 3y ago
  > I don't trust myself enough to not lose the encryption key If you're using a password manager, you can put the key in there. In effect this backs up the key (encrypted) to every device you install the password manager on, plus a cloud backup depending on what manager you're using.
- ls612 3y ago
  I enabled Advanced Data Protection and put the recovery key in an encrypted 7zip file, then uploaded that file to Onedrive and Backblaze also picked it up. Every now and then I have a reminder on my phone to test-decrypt the recovery key locally to make sure I don't forget the encryption key.
  - jackson1442 3y ago
ben_w 3y ago
If you care about that, no provider is really safe (not everyone will copy LavaBit and close the business in response to being ordered to secretly reveal keys or otherwise allow snooping); however you can still make sure the thing being synchronised is an encrypted disk image or whatever.
sgjohnson 3y ago
> No, nobody is using it because it is off by default and buried in settings. I’m using it. And I’m perfectly okay with this being the default behaviour.
pyuser583 3y ago
But doesn’t that conflict with this articles complaint: version conflicts? Much easier to handle version conflicts if the file isn’t a black box.
tw04 3y ago
>Don't use non-e2ee services. >(Yes, there is an opt-in e2ee for iCloud now. No, nobody is using it because it is off by default and buried in settings.) These are contradictory statements. It IS e2ee. I can easily convince friends and family to click through two menus to enable it. I can't easily convince my friends and family to go through the effort of installing syncthing on multiple devices and then go through with the configuration of them. It's great you're a syncthing advocate, but telling people that icloud drive is bad just because they don't enable a setting that could cause an average user to lose all of their data if they lose the key is a little ridiculous. I GUARANTEE YOU that your grandmother would MUCH rather be able to call Apple to get her pictures of little johnny back when she forgets her password than have it "more secure by default".
- judge2020 3y ago
  And for many people, a paper that enables they recover their account feels (and likely is) much more assuring than the possibility of never getting in because you forgot things like when you created the account or any number of years-old purchases. The paper will live in a safe right next to other important documents like their Social Security Card or Passport.
- amelius 3y ago
  What good is e2ee if Apple employees can just VNC into your phone like another commenter said?
  - photonerd 3y ago
    You have to give them permission. No different to any RDP session
  - tw04 3y ago
    >What good is e2ee if Apple employees can just VNC into your phone like another commenter said? That would be the same regardless of whether you were using icloud or syncthing... The commenter hasn't actually linked any sort of proof or citation (at the time I'm writing this), and assuming it exists at all, it requires you to accept the inbound connection in the first place. My guess is they're extremely confused about the new switch control function that allows remote access, not some nefarious Apple backdoor like you're insinuating. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205644 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205644
speak_plainly 3y ago
You are able to turn on end-to-end encryption on your iCloud account by going to the setting ‘advanced data protection’. https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT212520 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT212520
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by sneak 3y ago

aroman 3y ago

surely it’s easier to just click a button and turn on e2ee in icloud than change your entire cloud storage provider…

aaomidi 3y ago

If you’re reading this comment, you can also find out that you can turn on e2ee. (Maybe you should lead with that :P) iCloud Drive is like, one of the only providers that has e2ee.

dannyphantom 3y ago
On iOS: Settings > AppleID > iCloud > Advanced Data Protection You'll see 'Add Recovery Contact' and underneath it you'll see 'Recovery Key' 'Off>' Tap into it, agree to the notice, you'll get a 28 alphanumeric key and then re-enter that same key to finish the set-up.
- photonerd 3y ago
  They really should have it use a pass phrase. Much easier to remember

fh9302 3y ago

How is manually turning on iCloud E2EE different to manually searching a provider that supports E2EE by default? This isn't like messaging where the other person also needs E2EE enabled.

sneak 3y ago
The difference is that you know the provider is willing to ship surveillance-enabling footguns. They don't regard e2ee as core and necessary functionality. Safe and secure providers will never touch the plaintext of any user ever, regardless of the user's configuration (or lack of it). An example (although not in the e2ee sense) is that time Dropbox allowed logins to any account with any password provided. It illustrates that having a basic test suite over authentication systems wasn't important to them.

sxg 3y ago

Worth noting a practical counter argument against e2ee: the vast majority of people are much more susceptible to losing all of their data because they forget or lose their encryption key compared to having their data compromised by admin staff or governments. While I'd love to turn on e2ee, I don't trust myself enough to not lose the encryption key.

eviks 3y ago
Then give the encryption key to a few people, there is at least 1 person you trust not to lose it?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  Indeed, just print multiple copies on paper. The digital attack vector and physical one almost never intersect. I think it’s less about protecting yourself against targeted attack, and more as a defence gains snooping and physhing and some gathering dirt.
idle_zealot 3y ago
> I don't trust myself enough to not lose the encryption key If you're using a password manager, you can put the key in there. In effect this backs up the key (encrypted) to every device you install the password manager on, plus a cloud backup depending on what manager you're using.
ls612 3y ago
I enabled Advanced Data Protection and put the recovery key in an encrypted 7zip file, then uploaded that file to Onedrive and Backblaze also picked it up. Every now and then I have a reminder on my phone to test-decrypt the recovery key locally to make sure I don't forget the encryption key.
- jackson1442 3y ago

ben_w 3y ago

If you care about that, no provider is really safe (not everyone will copy LavaBit and close the business in response to being ordered to secretly reveal keys or otherwise allow snooping); however you can still make sure the thing being synchronised is an encrypted disk image or whatever.

sgjohnson 3y ago

> No, nobody is using it because it is off by default and buried in settings. I’m using it. And I’m perfectly okay with this being the default behaviour.

pyuser583 3y ago

But doesn’t that conflict with this articles complaint: version conflicts? Much easier to handle version conflicts if the file isn’t a black box.

tw04 3y ago

>Don't use non-e2ee services. >(Yes, there is an opt-in e2ee for iCloud now. No, nobody is using it because it is off by default and buried in settings.) These are contradictory statements. It IS e2ee. I can easily convince friends and family to click through two menus to enable it. I can't easily convince my friends and family to go through the effort of installing syncthing on multiple devices and then go through with the configuration of them. It's great you're a syncthing advocate, but telling people that icloud drive is bad just because they don't enable a setting that could cause an average user to lose all of their data if they lose the key is a little ridiculous. I GUARANTEE YOU that your grandmother would MUCH rather be able to call Apple to get her pictures of little johnny back when she forgets her password than have it "more secure by default".

judge2020 3y ago
And for many people, a paper that enables they recover their account feels (and likely is) much more assuring than the possibility of never getting in because you forgot things like when you created the account or any number of years-old purchases. The paper will live in a safe right next to other important documents like their Social Security Card or Passport.
amelius 3y ago
What good is e2ee if Apple employees can just VNC into your phone like another commenter said?
- photonerd 3y ago
  You have to give them permission. No different to any RDP session
- tw04 3y ago
  >What good is e2ee if Apple employees can just VNC into your phone like another commenter said? That would be the same regardless of whether you were using icloud or syncthing... The commenter hasn't actually linked any sort of proof or citation (at the time I'm writing this), and assuming it exists at all, it requires you to accept the inbound connection in the first place. My guess is they're extremely confused about the new switch control function that allows remote access, not some nefarious Apple backdoor like you're insinuating. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205644 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205644

speak_plainly 3y ago

You are able to turn on end-to-end encryption on your iCloud account by going to the setting ‘advanced data protection’. https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT212520 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT212520

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]