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I'd like to point out that, although it is illegal to put lead in water supply lines in the US, there is a loophole that allows it in hot water lines. As a res

by hedora 3y ago

I'd like to point out that, although it is illegal to put lead in water supply lines in the US, there is a loophole that allows it in hot water lines. As a result, for certain fittings, most big-box hardware stores only sell the leaded variants, and label them "hot water heater supply line" or something similar.

tomjakubowski 3y ago
Why is it specially allowed in hot water lines?
- tgv 3y ago
  I think that is allowed because we don’t drink from the hot water tap.
  - raincole 3y ago
    But when I googled hot water tap the first images it showed were... uh... https://www.sinks-taps.com/articles/2018/9/21/the-benefits-of-an-instant-hot-water-kitchen-tap-boiling-water-tap-kettle-tap https://www.sinks-taps.com/articles/2018/9/21/the-benefits-o...
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      hahaha ok, but that product is a hot-water heater built into your kitchen tap to do away with your hot water kettle. Presumably, that's not plumbed to your teapot with a lead boiler and faucet. (weird, "plumbed" means "leaded")
  - lainga 3y ago
    ...We don't...? Who?
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      In the past it was common knowledge not to. It's of much more uncertainty as house plumbing has changed.
      - crote 3y ago
        That's because it is primarily a historical artifact[0]. Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand, which pretty much entirely avoids the risk of storage tank contamination or Legionella. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA
        mrguyorama 3y ago
        >Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand Where is this the case? These kind of things are extremely locational and here in the US it seems like 45 gallon hot water tanks are still the norm. We had a fad with "on demand" hot water heating but everyone gave up on it when the "it saves you money" part didn't work so well.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        Here in Europe the money saving works really well. The issue is that you need a lot of power to heat on demand. Meaning natural gas. Having an electrical connection strong enough to heat water for a shower is rare.
        callalex 3y ago
        I wouldn’t consider on-demand heaters to be all that modern. Places that use on-demand water heaters are now at a disadvantage because it is much more challenging to switch away from fossil fuels over to electric. Tanks, especially with a heat pump, can provide all the heating a household needs through a standard 120V15A socket. For on demand electric water heating you’re looking at upgrading main panels to supply an additional 240V20A and even that will struggle to heat the water enough in some winter climates.
        Gigachad 3y ago
        Storage tanks are extremely common in Australia, but they are run hot enough to kill anything and then get mixed with cold water to bring it back to the desired temp.
  - amelius 3y ago
    I know people who fill their water boiler with hot tap water ...
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Me too and it always felt wrong to me and never did it myself. Now I have a solid reason. Oh and you should not drink directly from the warm tab water, as warm water that was standing some time, has way more microorganisms .. a point my 2 year old is not yet accepting.
    - nayuki 3y ago
      I fill my water distiller with hot tap water. Guaranteed to be safe. Yes, I'm talking about a machine that boils the water, collects the steam, and condenses it back to water. It removes absolutely everything.
      - jhoechtl 3y ago
        You shouldn't drink distilled water for a prolonged time as it will desalinate your body and depreve it from rare minerals.
        asdff 3y ago
        A banana probably has more than enough electrolytes to counter this
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        Absolutely everything… that has a boiling point higher than water’s. It won’t do anything to remove alcohol, for instance. Or any other contamination that boils off before water does. Ofc you could discard the head and tail of your distillation operation…
        nayuki 3y ago
        Yes, you're right in a pedantic way =). I trust that my city's tap water doesn't have alcohol in it. After all, I previously and many people still drink it without extra filtering, and it's safe enough to do so. Relatedly, the standard technique in alcohol distillation is to discard the head because it contains toxic methanol. https://youtu.be/a1IruS1bKN8?t=672 https://youtu.be/a1IruS1bKN8?t=672
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Restaurants are sometimes equipped with hot water lines from the water district and a filler tap right above or near the stove so that boiling water doesn't take so long.
  - insanitybit 3y ago
    If I'm making tea I do. I can't imagine that lead is boiling off...
    - dboreham 3y ago
      That's a terrible way to make tea, fwiw.
      - insanitybit 3y ago
        I want to stress that I actually don't give a shit (I am not that into tea, I just drink it sometimes, it's not a big deal to me), but I am curious as to why.
        bmacho 3y ago
        Unrelated to the tea, but cold water is somewhat safer to drink than water coming from your boiler, that's why.
        insanitybit 3y ago
        IDK, they said "a terrible way to make tea", I'm assuming there's some sorta tea lore that I'm unaware of
        YokoZar 3y ago
        There are tea drinkers that believe very strongly in using water that isn't "stale" (eg, leftover in the kettle from the last time). Presumably water from the hot water tap would be stale for similar reasons. I think the theory is that "stale" water lacks sufficient oxygen for tea brewing to fully brew or something.
        mlyle 3y ago
        It's not O2: if you let water sit out, various things (including CO2) dissolve in it, making it slightly acidic and taste stale. I'm not a big tea drinker, but I am definitely not a super fan of water that's been sitting out a day. There's not been time for stuff to grow in it yet, but it still tastes gross.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    If the water was already hot because I was doing something else, I'll make soup or pasta with a pot of hot water. If the kitchen were closer to my water heater, I'd do it more consistently.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      You're never supposed to cook with hot tap water. Even if lead is not a concern, there are other possible contaminants that can leech from plastic and copper pipes, or from the tank itself.
      - kortilla 3y ago
        This is not taught in the US and we blend hot and cold together. Why are the lines blended at the faucet if that’s the case?
        giantg2 3y ago
        There's a lot that's not formally taught in the US. But I'm in the US and this is a thing. The blended faucets are fine. If it was set to hot or some blend with hot in it, you set it to cold and let it run for 1-3 seconds.
        kortilla 3y ago
        No, it’s blended because hot water is fine in the US. We don’t use hot water tanks that sit on rooftops and accumulate bird shit.
    - munificent 3y ago
      If you ever find yourself cleaning the inside of a hot water heater some day, it will disabuse you of that habit. I'm sure it's mostly harmless, but they accumulate a truly horrific amount of mineral deposits and other weird gunk in there.
      - thfuran 3y ago
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It's not allowed in any water lines used for drinking or cooking. I would read that as not allowed on hot water lines serving the kitchen for sure (and I suspect most plumbers would agree). The warning on items from my plumbing supply house for lead containing items is prominent, pops up on each "add to cart", and says "This product does not comply with the “Safe Drinking Water Act,” which requires that products meet low-lead standards in order to be used in systems providing water for human consumption (drinking or cooking). This item is for non-potable (non-human consumption) water applications only." It is allowed in hydronic heating, HVAC/R, and irrigation fittings (which of course don't have a human consumption element to them).
- bluGill 3y ago
  Hot water heating is where it is allowed. Some houses have hot water heating which should never touch tap water and so lead won't be a problem (well it might be to plumbers working on it). Lead is an amazing material, too bad it is toxic, because from a materials stand point it is very useful to put a little into many different metals to useful properties.
amluto 3y ago
There’s another loophole: “lead free” means that the wetted surface is no more than 0.25% lead (by mass, I think). As far as I know, lead has nice properties as an element added to brass alloys. Which is not an excuse for using it, IMO. (Why is any of this still a thing? Stainless steel is cheaper than copper these days, and it’s a great material as long as you aren’t trying to screw one piece of stainless steel into another, and there isn’t a great reason why one should need to do much of that. And there are some excellent plastics available, too.)
- thfuran 3y ago
  Are there? It seems like plastics are shaping up to be the modern day lead.
  - hadlock 3y ago
    Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war, but those roofs that don't, are typically there forever (400+ years) and never leak. Some plastics are UV resistant due to additives but even copper struggles to compete with lead as a roofing material. You only need to look back to the 1970s to find PEX water piping and the disaster/flooding it can cause due to age.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Are you thinking of polybutylene pipe, rather than Pex (cross-linked polyethylene)?
    - 13of40 3y ago
      > Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war That's interesting - I've read that there are a lot of castles and stately houses whose demise started from the owners selling off the lead roof, but I never understood why it would be so valuable that you'd destroy the building for it. Is that why?
      - prewett 3y ago
aidenn0 3y ago
I had a stop valve that went bad and I wanted to replace it with a ball-valve because I prefer quarter-turn valves for shutoff valves. No ball-valves at the hardware store were lead free.
- weaksauce 3y ago
  just a fair warning that you should close that quarter-turn valve very gradually when there is running water if you ever find a non-leaded version... water hammer can and will burst the weakest of your pipes.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    For those that do not know, Practical Engineering has video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    Less of an issue for area shutoff valves (e.g. under-sink) , since most of the time they are used before doing maintenance and there is little flow at the time. We did have a plumber (!!) damage our pressure regulator by turning the whole-house shutoff valve (inches away from the regulator) too quickly; that was a bit annoying.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    And/or stick a hammer preventer in your piping in multiple places.
  - jhoechtl 3y ago
    Is this actually a thing? I know there are videos of watwr hammer on youtube (US centric) There are no regulations afaik in Europe in domestic = no-industrial plumbing and sure we have quarter valves which you can quickly turn off. I never ever heard of a bursting pipe because of water hammmer.
    - rdevsrex 3y ago
sbradford26 3y ago
So most likely that is focused on hydronic heating systems. Personally at my local home improvement store all the fitting in the plumbing section are listed as potable/lead free. If you have some examples of fittings that you are referring to I would be interested. I can only really find hydronic circulator pumps that are only low lead instead of lead free.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
What are we going to do? Pass a law? To force the millions of voters paying hardly any property tax who bought their lead-loaded homes in 1983 for $40,000 in Los Angeles and San Francisco, now worth $1.1m, to you know, fix them? Then will we pay for the even greater rise in rents? I hate lead, pollution and my incredibly cheap landlord, but I feel like I have no choice in California.
- doug_durham 3y ago
  You obviously didn't live in the SF Bay area in the 80's. Houses were not that cheap even then.
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    And they're more than $1.1m now.
- lkbm 3y ago
  That seems like a non-sequitur. He's saying that new fittings contain lead. Step one is to ban those. This does leave existing homes with old fittings, but "stopping the bleeding" doesn't require retrofits. The old housing stock will gradually be replaced/updated. Accelerating that trend is the logical next step, but it's a second, separate step.
- cj 3y ago
  > What are we going to do? Pass a law? Yes! It wouldn't burden existing homeowners because such laws almost always grandfather in existing structures. When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades.
  - brianwawok 3y ago
    > When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades. Kinda. Or, rich people got it replaced right away. Poor people are still living it with it today. Go test a $500k and a $100k (this is midwest price not SF price) house for Lead and Asbestos. I bet you find very different results on the average.
giantg2 3y ago
Something interesting to point out is that until about 2014 "lead-free" plumbing could in fact contain amounts of lead. I forget the cut-off level but it was something like 8%. I'm not all that worried about lead. In most places it's not an issue because of how restricted it's been, we have tests for it in products, tests in people, etc. I'm more concerned about plastics, forever chemicals, etc which are everywhere, aren't routinely tested for, and have known negative impacts (not on the same severity as lead).
- yterdy 3y ago
  This comment doesn't make sense, particularly wrt TFA.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    What doesn't make sense?
    - soperj 3y ago
      the article says it's more poisonous and causes more IQ loss than previously thought.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        Yeah, and I still don't find it that concerning given the low prevalence and still relatively low IQ per ug/dL reduction. Slightly lower IQ is more appealing to me than things like cancer.
  - brianwawok 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
trashface 3y ago
There is also an exception for leaded gas in small/private jets ("AVGas") so its used in some of those formulations.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > exception for leaded gas in small/private jets Jets run on jet fuel (which is basically kerosene and has no lead). Avgas is used in many piston-powered small aircraft.
- slapshot 3y ago
  No jets use or have ever used leaded products. Jets run on Jet-A, which is a close relative of kerosene. It has never been leaded. The purpose of lead was to prevent cylinders from prematurely detonating ("knocking") in internal combustion engines. Jets do not have any cylinders to knock; the fuel burns continually in an open combustion chamber. You may have been thinking of 100LL (100 Low Lead) fuel for piston engined planes. Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022. The FAA has approved a lead-free replacement in fuels like UL94 that are steadily replacing 100LL.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    > Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022. Really? That is news to me. Googling reveals that two airports did that, both in the same county: Reid-Hillview Airport (KRHV) and San Martin Airport (E16).
    - slapshot 3y ago
      Bay Area bias, sorry. Many airports near me did. I have no knowledge about Oklahoma.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        > Many airports near me did. Could you list a few of the many? I looked around Bay Area airports, and found most of them selling 100LL: KSFO - San Francisco International Airport - $9.90 KHAF - Half Moon Bay Airport - $6.42 KOAK - Metro Oakland International Airport - $8.21/$8.64 KHWD - Hayward Executive Airport - $7.99/$7.55 KPAO - Palo Alto Airport - $6.35/$6.95/$6.59 CA35 - San Rafael Airport - $6.84 KSJC - Norman Y Mineta San Jose International Airport - $10.07/$8.95 KLVK - Livermore Municipal Airport - $6.54/$7.54 KCCR - Buchanan Field Airport - $7.15/$6.98 KDVO - Gnoss Field Airport - $7.67/$7.87 KAPC - Napa County Airport - $9.20 0Q3 - Sonoma Valley Airport - $8.00 C83 - Byron Airport - $6.35 0Q9 - Sonoma Skypark Airport - $6.30 O69 - Petaluma Municipal Airport - $6.95
sandworm101 3y ago
A few feet of hot water pipes in fittings won't create a problem. Think of the thousands of feet of pipe that water runs through, where it often sits for days, then spends a fraction of a second in a tap or shower nozzle. Worried? Just run the tap for half a second before drinking.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That depends on the chemical makeup of the water (I think PH, but maybe something else). Some water will dissolve lead quickly and thus be unsafe, while others will not. Some water will leave a coating on the insides of pipes and so the lead doesn't even touch the water (this coating can build up over time though), while others will clean that coating off and so lead can touch the pipe.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. Half a second is barely enough time for water to move through the hose from the wall to the faucet.
jstarfish 3y ago
I had no idea it was unsafe to drink from green garden hoses until it was pointed out by an RV salesman trying to sell me a white hose for potable water-- in my 20s. I thought he was full of shit, but I was proven wrong. Hot water lines can't be the only loophole causing lead ingestion.
- hinkley 3y ago
  When I moved I did a search not only for garden hose without lead but also without phthalates and BPA. There are a few goodun’s out there. Expensive though, but I also have hose connections that don’t leak because tolerances and decent seals.
  - georgeg23 3y ago
    In particular I would recommend the ELEY Garden Hose
    - greedo 3y ago
      Eley makes really good (but expensive) stuff. It bugs me that they moved their production overseas though. I could understand if they were selling a $5 sprayer or $15 hose reel. I think they could still make a good profit if their stuff was made back in Nebraska.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        Water Right is about a third of the cost. I've left mine out in the sun for three years for one hose, four for the other. The 4 yo one is just started to get a hint of bleaching this year.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Good luck with Water Wright. They come in long runs and aren't very heavy. Occasional problems with inventory, but do you really need the red one?
- jhallenworld 3y ago
thiht 3y ago
Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law? Everytime there’s a major health issue or anything extremely anti consumer it’s because of a loophole in the formulation of a US law. Are US lawmakers that bad? Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent?
- gmkabro 3y ago
  It’s money. The answer is money. Somebody makes money by producing lead-infused products, so they pay off lawmakers to add a loophole that allows them to continue making money.
  - tlrobinson 3y ago
    Bill Gurley’s recent talk is worth a watch https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM
    - hodgesrm 3y ago
      That's an excellent talk. Thanks for posting.
  - sneak 3y ago
    Yet people still maintain the popular fiction that corruption isn't that common in the large western countries, and that it's somehow more prevalent in the east. It's nonsense. Everywhere there are large governments, there is huge corruption that is literally killing people so that others may be enriched without working as much.
    - forgetm3 3y ago
      Corruption exists everywhere, but in western countries is a lot less likely that you'll be bribing police, school teachers, medical services, banks etc as an 'individual' to get the services you expect from them. Can you find examples of people bribing those in those positions? Sure, it can and does happen. And on the whole, it's the exception rather than the rule. And definitely not at the scale of other countries. Big business interests affecting policy for the point of profit is a universal issue though.
refurb 3y ago
What parts of a hot water supply line contain lead. Can you share a link?

by hedora 3y ago

tomjakubowski 3y ago

Why is it specially allowed in hot water lines?

tgv 3y ago
I think that is allowed because we don’t drink from the hot water tap.
- raincole 3y ago
  But when I googled hot water tap the first images it showed were... uh... https://www.sinks-taps.com/articles/2018/9/21/the-benefits-of-an-instant-hot-water-kitchen-tap-boiling-water-tap-kettle-tap https://www.sinks-taps.com/articles/2018/9/21/the-benefits-o...
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    hahaha ok, but that product is a hot-water heater built into your kitchen tap to do away with your hot water kettle. Presumably, that's not plumbed to your teapot with a lead boiler and faucet. (weird, "plumbed" means "leaded")
- lainga 3y ago
  ...We don't...? Who?
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    In the past it was common knowledge not to. It's of much more uncertainty as house plumbing has changed.
    - crote 3y ago
      That's because it is primarily a historical artifact[0]. Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand, which pretty much entirely avoids the risk of storage tank contamination or Legionella. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHgUu_8KgA
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        >Most modern plumbing heats water on-demand Where is this the case? These kind of things are extremely locational and here in the US it seems like 45 gallon hot water tanks are still the norm. We had a fad with "on demand" hot water heating but everyone gave up on it when the "it saves you money" part didn't work so well.
        wkat4242 3y ago
        Here in Europe the money saving works really well. The issue is that you need a lot of power to heat on demand. Meaning natural gas. Having an electrical connection strong enough to heat water for a shower is rare.
      - callalex 3y ago
        I wouldn’t consider on-demand heaters to be all that modern. Places that use on-demand water heaters are now at a disadvantage because it is much more challenging to switch away from fossil fuels over to electric. Tanks, especially with a heat pump, can provide all the heating a household needs through a standard 120V15A socket. For on demand electric water heating you’re looking at upgrading main panels to supply an additional 240V20A and even that will struggle to heat the water enough in some winter climates.
      - Gigachad 3y ago
        Storage tanks are extremely common in Australia, but they are run hot enough to kill anything and then get mixed with cold water to bring it back to the desired temp.
- amelius 3y ago
  I know people who fill their water boiler with hot tap water ...
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Me too and it always felt wrong to me and never did it myself. Now I have a solid reason. Oh and you should not drink directly from the warm tab water, as warm water that was standing some time, has way more microorganisms .. a point my 2 year old is not yet accepting.
  - nayuki 3y ago
    I fill my water distiller with hot tap water. Guaranteed to be safe. Yes, I'm talking about a machine that boils the water, collects the steam, and condenses it back to water. It removes absolutely everything.
    - jhoechtl 3y ago
      You shouldn't drink distilled water for a prolonged time as it will desalinate your body and depreve it from rare minerals.
      - asdff 3y ago
        A banana probably has more than enough electrolytes to counter this
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      Absolutely everything… that has a boiling point higher than water’s. It won’t do anything to remove alcohol, for instance. Or any other contamination that boils off before water does. Ofc you could discard the head and tail of your distillation operation…
      - nayuki 3y ago
        Yes, you're right in a pedantic way =). I trust that my city's tap water doesn't have alcohol in it. After all, I previously and many people still drink it without extra filtering, and it's safe enough to do so. Relatedly, the standard technique in alcohol distillation is to discard the head because it contains toxic methanol. https://youtu.be/a1IruS1bKN8?t=672 https://youtu.be/a1IruS1bKN8?t=672
- uoaei 3y ago
  Restaurants are sometimes equipped with hot water lines from the water district and a filler tap right above or near the stove so that boiling water doesn't take so long.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  If I'm making tea I do. I can't imagine that lead is boiling off...
  - dboreham 3y ago
    That's a terrible way to make tea, fwiw.
    - insanitybit 3y ago
      I want to stress that I actually don't give a shit (I am not that into tea, I just drink it sometimes, it's not a big deal to me), but I am curious as to why.
      - bmacho 3y ago
        Unrelated to the tea, but cold water is somewhat safer to drink than water coming from your boiler, that's why.
        insanitybit 3y ago
        IDK, they said "a terrible way to make tea", I'm assuming there's some sorta tea lore that I'm unaware of
        YokoZar 3y ago
        There are tea drinkers that believe very strongly in using water that isn't "stale" (eg, leftover in the kettle from the last time). Presumably water from the hot water tap would be stale for similar reasons. I think the theory is that "stale" water lacks sufficient oxygen for tea brewing to fully brew or something.
        mlyle 3y ago
        It's not O2: if you let water sit out, various things (including CO2) dissolve in it, making it slightly acidic and taste stale. I'm not a big tea drinker, but I am definitely not a super fan of water that's been sitting out a day. There's not been time for stuff to grow in it yet, but it still tastes gross.
- thfuran 3y ago
  If the water was already hot because I was doing something else, I'll make soup or pasta with a pot of hot water. If the kitchen were closer to my water heater, I'd do it more consistently.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    You're never supposed to cook with hot tap water. Even if lead is not a concern, there are other possible contaminants that can leech from plastic and copper pipes, or from the tank itself.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      This is not taught in the US and we blend hot and cold together. Why are the lines blended at the faucet if that’s the case?
      - giantg2 3y ago
        There's a lot that's not formally taught in the US. But I'm in the US and this is a thing. The blended faucets are fine. If it was set to hot or some blend with hot in it, you set it to cold and let it run for 1-3 seconds.
        kortilla 3y ago
        No, it’s blended because hot water is fine in the US. We don’t use hot water tanks that sit on rooftops and accumulate bird shit.
  - munificent 3y ago
    If you ever find yourself cleaning the inside of a hot water heater some day, it will disabuse you of that habit. I'm sure it's mostly harmless, but they accumulate a truly horrific amount of mineral deposits and other weird gunk in there.
    - thfuran 3y ago
sokoloff 3y ago
It's not allowed in any water lines used for drinking or cooking. I would read that as not allowed on hot water lines serving the kitchen for sure (and I suspect most plumbers would agree). The warning on items from my plumbing supply house for lead containing items is prominent, pops up on each "add to cart", and says "This product does not comply with the “Safe Drinking Water Act,” which requires that products meet low-lead standards in order to be used in systems providing water for human consumption (drinking or cooking). This item is for non-potable (non-human consumption) water applications only." It is allowed in hydronic heating, HVAC/R, and irrigation fittings (which of course don't have a human consumption element to them).
bluGill 3y ago
Hot water heating is where it is allowed. Some houses have hot water heating which should never touch tap water and so lead won't be a problem (well it might be to plumbers working on it). Lead is an amazing material, too bad it is toxic, because from a materials stand point it is very useful to put a little into many different metals to useful properties.

amluto 3y ago

There’s another loophole: “lead free” means that the wetted surface is no more than 0.25% lead (by mass, I think). As far as I know, lead has nice properties as an element added to brass alloys. Which is not an excuse for using it, IMO. (Why is any of this still a thing? Stainless steel is cheaper than copper these days, and it’s a great material as long as you aren’t trying to screw one piece of stainless steel into another, and there isn’t a great reason why one should need to do much of that. And there are some excellent plastics available, too.)

thfuran 3y ago
Are there? It seems like plastics are shaping up to be the modern day lead.
- hadlock 3y ago
  Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war, but those roofs that don't, are typically there forever (400+ years) and never leak. Some plastics are UV resistant due to additives but even copper struggles to compete with lead as a roofing material. You only need to look back to the 1970s to find PEX water piping and the disaster/flooding it can cause due to age.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Are you thinking of polybutylene pipe, rather than Pex (cross-linked polyethylene)?
  - 13of40 3y ago
    > Lead roofing tends to get recycled into bullets in time of war That's interesting - I've read that there are a lot of castles and stately houses whose demise started from the owners selling off the lead roof, but I never understood why it would be so valuable that you'd destroy the building for it. Is that why?
    - prewett 3y ago

aidenn0 3y ago

I had a stop valve that went bad and I wanted to replace it with a ball-valve because I prefer quarter-turn valves for shutoff valves. No ball-valves at the hardware store were lead free.

weaksauce 3y ago
just a fair warning that you should close that quarter-turn valve very gradually when there is running water if you ever find a non-leaded version... water hammer can and will burst the weakest of your pipes.
- ilyt 3y ago
  For those that do not know, Practical Engineering has video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Less of an issue for area shutoff valves (e.g. under-sink) , since most of the time they are used before doing maintenance and there is little flow at the time. We did have a plumber (!!) damage our pressure regulator by turning the whole-house shutoff valve (inches away from the regulator) too quickly; that was a bit annoying.
- pixl97 3y ago
  And/or stick a hammer preventer in your piping in multiple places.
- jhoechtl 3y ago
  Is this actually a thing? I know there are videos of watwr hammer on youtube (US centric) There are no regulations afaik in Europe in domestic = no-industrial plumbing and sure we have quarter valves which you can quickly turn off. I never ever heard of a bursting pipe because of water hammmer.
  - rdevsrex 3y ago

sbradford26 3y ago

So most likely that is focused on hydronic heating systems. Personally at my local home improvement store all the fitting in the plumbing section are listed as potable/lead free. If you have some examples of fittings that you are referring to I would be interested. I can only really find hydronic circulator pumps that are only low lead instead of lead free.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

What are we going to do? Pass a law? To force the millions of voters paying hardly any property tax who bought their lead-loaded homes in 1983 for $40,000 in Los Angeles and San Francisco, now worth $1.1m, to you know, fix them? Then will we pay for the even greater rise in rents? I hate lead, pollution and my incredibly cheap landlord, but I feel like I have no choice in California.

doug_durham 3y ago
You obviously didn't live in the SF Bay area in the 80's. Houses were not that cheap even then.
- tshaddox 3y ago
  And they're more than $1.1m now.
lkbm 3y ago
That seems like a non-sequitur. He's saying that new fittings contain lead. Step one is to ban those. This does leave existing homes with old fittings, but "stopping the bleeding" doesn't require retrofits. The old housing stock will gradually be replaced/updated. Accelerating that trend is the logical next step, but it's a second, separate step.
cj 3y ago
> What are we going to do? Pass a law? Yes! It wouldn't burden existing homeowners because such laws almost always grandfather in existing structures. When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  > When they banned lead paint and asbestos, I don't think anyone immediately repainted their walls or replaced their asbestos drywall. It slowly phases out over a number of decades. Kinda. Or, rich people got it replaced right away. Poor people are still living it with it today. Go test a $500k and a $100k (this is midwest price not SF price) house for Lead and Asbestos. I bet you find very different results on the average.

giantg2 3y ago

Something interesting to point out is that until about 2014 "lead-free" plumbing could in fact contain amounts of lead. I forget the cut-off level but it was something like 8%. I'm not all that worried about lead. In most places it's not an issue because of how restricted it's been, we have tests for it in products, tests in people, etc. I'm more concerned about plastics, forever chemicals, etc which are everywhere, aren't routinely tested for, and have known negative impacts (not on the same severity as lead).

yterdy 3y ago
This comment doesn't make sense, particularly wrt TFA.
- giantg2 3y ago
  What doesn't make sense?
  - soperj 3y ago
    the article says it's more poisonous and causes more IQ loss than previously thought.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Yeah, and I still don't find it that concerning given the low prevalence and still relatively low IQ per ug/dL reduction. Slightly lower IQ is more appealing to me than things like cancer.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

trashface 3y ago

There is also an exception for leaded gas in small/private jets ("AVGas") so its used in some of those formulations.

sokoloff 3y ago
> exception for leaded gas in small/private jets Jets run on jet fuel (which is basically kerosene and has no lead). Avgas is used in many piston-powered small aircraft.
slapshot 3y ago
No jets use or have ever used leaded products. Jets run on Jet-A, which is a close relative of kerosene. It has never been leaded. The purpose of lead was to prevent cylinders from prematurely detonating ("knocking") in internal combustion engines. Jets do not have any cylinders to knock; the fuel burns continually in an open combustion chamber. You may have been thinking of 100LL (100 Low Lead) fuel for piston engined planes. Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022. The FAA has approved a lead-free replacement in fuels like UL94 that are steadily replacing 100LL.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > Many airports stopped selling 100LL in January of 2022. Really? That is news to me. Googling reveals that two airports did that, both in the same county: Reid-Hillview Airport (KRHV) and San Martin Airport (E16).
  - slapshot 3y ago
    Bay Area bias, sorry. Many airports near me did. I have no knowledge about Oklahoma.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      > Many airports near me did. Could you list a few of the many? I looked around Bay Area airports, and found most of them selling 100LL: KSFO - San Francisco International Airport - $9.90 KHAF - Half Moon Bay Airport - $6.42 KOAK - Metro Oakland International Airport - $8.21/$8.64 KHWD - Hayward Executive Airport - $7.99/$7.55 KPAO - Palo Alto Airport - $6.35/$6.95/$6.59 CA35 - San Rafael Airport - $6.84 KSJC - Norman Y Mineta San Jose International Airport - $10.07/$8.95 KLVK - Livermore Municipal Airport - $6.54/$7.54 KCCR - Buchanan Field Airport - $7.15/$6.98 KDVO - Gnoss Field Airport - $7.67/$7.87 KAPC - Napa County Airport - $9.20 0Q3 - Sonoma Valley Airport - $8.00 C83 - Byron Airport - $6.35 0Q9 - Sonoma Skypark Airport - $6.30 O69 - Petaluma Municipal Airport - $6.95

sandworm101 3y ago

A few feet of hot water pipes in fittings won't create a problem. Think of the thousands of feet of pipe that water runs through, where it often sits for days, then spends a fraction of a second in a tap or shower nozzle. Worried? Just run the tap for half a second before drinking.

bluGill 3y ago
That depends on the chemical makeup of the water (I think PH, but maybe something else). Some water will dissolve lead quickly and thus be unsafe, while others will not. Some water will leave a coating on the insides of pipes and so the lead doesn't even touch the water (this coating can build up over time though), while others will clean that coating off and so lead can touch the pipe.
CyberDildonics 3y ago
That doesn't make any sense. Half a second is barely enough time for water to move through the hose from the wall to the faucet.

jstarfish 3y ago

I had no idea it was unsafe to drink from green garden hoses until it was pointed out by an RV salesman trying to sell me a white hose for potable water-- in my 20s. I thought he was full of shit, but I was proven wrong. Hot water lines can't be the only loophole causing lead ingestion.

hinkley 3y ago
When I moved I did a search not only for garden hose without lead but also without phthalates and BPA. There are a few goodun’s out there. Expensive though, but I also have hose connections that don’t leak because tolerances and decent seals.
- georgeg23 3y ago
  In particular I would recommend the ELEY Garden Hose
  - greedo 3y ago
    Eley makes really good (but expensive) stuff. It bugs me that they moved their production overseas though. I could understand if they were selling a $5 sprayer or $15 hose reel. I think they could still make a good profit if their stuff was made back in Nebraska.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Water Right is about a third of the cost. I've left mine out in the sun for three years for one hose, four for the other. The 4 yo one is just started to get a hint of bleaching this year.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Good luck with Water Wright. They come in long runs and aren't very heavy. Occasional problems with inventory, but do you really need the red one?
jhallenworld 3y ago

thiht 3y ago

Why are there so many loopholes in every single US law? Everytime there’s a major health issue or anything extremely anti consumer it’s because of a loophole in the formulation of a US law. Are US lawmakers that bad? Or is it judges who interpret laws literally instead of using the intent?

gmkabro 3y ago
It’s money. The answer is money. Somebody makes money by producing lead-infused products, so they pay off lawmakers to add a loophole that allows them to continue making money.
- tlrobinson 3y ago
  Bill Gurley’s recent talk is worth a watch https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM https://youtu.be/F9cO3-MLHOM
  - hodgesrm 3y ago
    That's an excellent talk. Thanks for posting.
- sneak 3y ago
  Yet people still maintain the popular fiction that corruption isn't that common in the large western countries, and that it's somehow more prevalent in the east. It's nonsense. Everywhere there are large governments, there is huge corruption that is literally killing people so that others may be enriched without working as much.
  - forgetm3 3y ago
    Corruption exists everywhere, but in western countries is a lot less likely that you'll be bribing police, school teachers, medical services, banks etc as an 'individual' to get the services you expect from them. Can you find examples of people bribing those in those positions? Sure, it can and does happen. And on the whole, it's the exception rather than the rule. And definitely not at the scale of other countries. Big business interests affecting policy for the point of profit is a universal issue though.

refurb 3y ago

What parts of a hot water supply line contain lead. Can you share a link?