7 ms·

The defensiveness and overreaction of India suggests that something is amiss. Why not just either 1) work with Canada to convince them they didn’t do it, or 2)

The defensiveness and overreaction of India suggests that something is amiss. Why not just either 1) work with Canada to convince them they didn’t do it, or 2) just let it go?

donbox 3y ago
That goes for Canada too, what was the need to go public and that too without presenting any evidence.
- AYBABTME 3y ago
  It seems unlikely to be false and made up, it's not like Canada goes about saying stuff like this, historically. At the same time it's not hard to imagine a case where revealing the evidence/sources would compromise the capabilities/assets used come up with this conclusion. Perhaps the early announcement is a misstep from the Canadian PM, but I really doubt that they would make this stuff up. They have very little to gain by coming out with this, if untrue, and a lot to lose. And if the allegations are true, Canada still is probably in an unenviable position of not wanting to come stir problem unnecessarily, but also not being able to let it slide and be seen as a push over. Extraterritorial killings by foreign nations is a big deal, and being soft on this is opening the door to a whole lot of problems.
  - stronglikedan 3y ago
    > it's not like Canada goes about saying stuff like this, historically Almost nothing Trudeau is doing could be considered historic.
    - momirlan 3y ago
      historically low, it is.
  - neom 3y ago
    Somewhat reminds me of the situation with Meng Wanzhou. Canada seems to end up with high profile folks with ties to other countries that then put Canada in a difficult position. China is still angry at Canada over the Meng Wanzhou situation (among other things). Xi Jinping took a swipe at Trudeau in front of the Camera recently, Modi is now telling me to f'off. Politics aside, say what you will about Justin, sure as heck wouldn't want to be him.
  - teitoklien 3y ago
    I would be weary of trusting the current Canadian prime minister CSIS and Canadian NSA (Canadian Intelligence Services) overall have a good reputation but have been mismanaged recently and also have been politicised and made to lie about events An example incident around 2018-2019 Canadian Prime Minister on his visit to India in 2018 had invited a known terrorist in hiding to his gala, who was shown to even take a photograph with his wife, the first lady at that event [0] Then after this incident blew up back then, the national security advisor of Canada, CSIS and the Canadian Prime Minister claimed that it was rogue elements in the Indian government who brought the criminal to the gala to embarass Canada [1] Only for a liberal mp from Prime Minister’s own party admitting they were the ones who invited the known fugitive who was facing charges on attempted murder against Indian beauracrats and journalists. [2][3] It was a disaster and showed how the current prime minister likes to use public services to save his face and make false accusation against other governments and nations. The Minister even had to resign later for this. I’ve added two attributions for last point [2] and [3] a canadian and a indian media source as it wasnt widely publicised in Canada (considering how embarrassing it was for them) but was widely shown in India I linked only canadian sources and newspapers to give them the benefit of the doubt. [0](https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-timeline-of-events-in-the-jaspal-atwal-affair https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-time...) [1](https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ) [2](https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56 https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56) [3](https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw)
- thrusong 3y ago
  Apparently Robert Fife told the PMO they were going to run this. The government asked them to hold off for a week, and then The Globe and Mail said "no, we're running it in 24 hours."
- martin8412 3y ago
  The press was about to make it public.
mortureb 3y ago
Generally being amicable in situations like this where you are accused of serious issues is viewed as insulting. I’m not saying they didn’t do it, I’m just saying that even if they didn’t they wouldn’t take kindly to it just being thrown in their face.
pratikss 3y ago
Do you expect for someone to not be defensive after you accuse them of murder? And then how can you ask them to investigate themselves? In civilized countries false accusation is considered criminal offense. Accusation comes after evidence, not before or during investigation.
michael1999 3y ago
Because they did it, and resent being called on it. The USA reserves the right to assassinate any one, any where, at any time as long as someone with signing authority calls them a terrorist. The Russians have made a game of it with their exotic mix of radioactive poisons and throwing people out of windows. The current nationalist government of India is demanding these same prerogatives to match their self-conception of India and status as a major power. Or (only slightly) more charitably: India would have been happy to keen this quiet. But once Canada announced this, India had to respond. Their voters respond well to muscular gestures, so something flashy like a visa ban demonstrates their toughness. Canada had already generating some bad publicity in India, and beating up on us for a little bit will probably make number go up.
- footlose_3815 3y ago
  Russia doesn't assasinate terrorists though, they simply murder dissenters. The oligarchy has lots of enemies.
  - areyousure 3y ago
    No comment on the broader claims of this comment, but "terrorists" are also a targeted group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili
  - DoItToMe81 3y ago
    They do, when they view themselves as in immediate danger. They killed Ibn Al-Khattab by bribing his courier into delivering him a letter laced with nerve agent.
- yumraj 3y ago
  > Because they did it, and resent being called on it. based on what evidence??
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
yumraj 3y ago
So India should just accept being called a murderer without evidence, and expulsion of its diplomat as well as Trudeau’s clear support to Khalistanis in Canada. I don’t think so. The onus is on Canada to provide evidence, not on India. Remember, innocent until proven guilty - or would you like that legal principal to be changed? Secondly, I’ll say that silence is an admission of guilt. India is daring Trudeau to show evidence or retract.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Innocent until proven guilty isn't a legal concept that applies to international relations, it is a colloquial phrase that clarifies rights in certain criminal cases. But also, "silence is an admission of guilt" is in direct contradiction to innocent until proven guilty. There are a variety of reasons why Canada might not provide proof to your satisfaction. One might be that it would expose intelligence channels that they are trying to keep alive (literally, in some cases). It has also only been a few days, and there is likely some pretty serious maneuvering on both sides where withholding information is important. I can also assure you that most Canadians, including the PM do not care in particular about "Khalistanis", or really know what that means in the context of Indian politics. Before this week, I would be surprised if most Canadians knew there was a rift between Hindus and Sikhs Canada does need to provide proof, but in Canadian politics you simply don't make an announcement like this as the PM without strong evidence.
  - yumraj 3y ago
    So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. That'll be equivalent and acceptable right? India has provided ample evidence including via Interpol (whatever the process is called, red something notice or whatever) regarding various Khalistanis and Canada hasn't acted. Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. Just look at the videos of the Gurudwara in question, it has posters calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. Graffiti was painted in Hindu temples in Canada. Etc. Etc. It is very clear that Canadian governments and politicians have a soft spot for Khalistanis since they constitute a sizeable vote bank. I believe NDP leader is also a Khalistan sympathizer, has to be if he wants Sikh votes in Canada. Having said that, I still believe that this is not a rift between Hindus and Sikhs. This is limited to a vocal, but powerful, minority of Sikh diaspora. Khalistan is a non-issue within India, but can flare up which is why governments need to be careful. Edit: I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is, but I found this to be a rather logical opinion piece : https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash-assassination-accusation https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash...
0xDEF 3y ago
Considering all the Snowden fanboyism and anti-CIA/NSA sentiments on HN and reddit I expected people to be more critical of a Five Eyes intelligence service saying "just trust us bro".
- wendyshu 3y ago
  non sequitur
glonq 3y ago
I'd like to think that Canada has a clean enough reputation as decent global citizens that they've earned the benefit of the doubt on this one. India aspires to be a global superpower, and since there's few decent role models for how to do that they've decided that "reckless impunity and belligerence" is how it's done.

The defensiveness and overreaction of India suggests that something is amiss. Why not just either 1) work with Canada to convince them they didn’t do it, or 2) just let it go?

donbox 3y ago

That goes for Canada too, what was the need to go public and that too without presenting any evidence.

AYBABTME 3y ago
It seems unlikely to be false and made up, it's not like Canada goes about saying stuff like this, historically. At the same time it's not hard to imagine a case where revealing the evidence/sources would compromise the capabilities/assets used come up with this conclusion. Perhaps the early announcement is a misstep from the Canadian PM, but I really doubt that they would make this stuff up. They have very little to gain by coming out with this, if untrue, and a lot to lose. And if the allegations are true, Canada still is probably in an unenviable position of not wanting to come stir problem unnecessarily, but also not being able to let it slide and be seen as a push over. Extraterritorial killings by foreign nations is a big deal, and being soft on this is opening the door to a whole lot of problems.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  > it's not like Canada goes about saying stuff like this, historically Almost nothing Trudeau is doing could be considered historic.
  - momirlan 3y ago
    historically low, it is.
- neom 3y ago
  Somewhat reminds me of the situation with Meng Wanzhou. Canada seems to end up with high profile folks with ties to other countries that then put Canada in a difficult position. China is still angry at Canada over the Meng Wanzhou situation (among other things). Xi Jinping took a swipe at Trudeau in front of the Camera recently, Modi is now telling me to f'off. Politics aside, say what you will about Justin, sure as heck wouldn't want to be him.
- teitoklien 3y ago
  I would be weary of trusting the current Canadian prime minister CSIS and Canadian NSA (Canadian Intelligence Services) overall have a good reputation but have been mismanaged recently and also have been politicised and made to lie about events An example incident around 2018-2019 Canadian Prime Minister on his visit to India in 2018 had invited a known terrorist in hiding to his gala, who was shown to even take a photograph with his wife, the first lady at that event [0] Then after this incident blew up back then, the national security advisor of Canada, CSIS and the Canadian Prime Minister claimed that it was rogue elements in the Indian government who brought the criminal to the gala to embarass Canada [1] Only for a liberal mp from Prime Minister’s own party admitting they were the ones who invited the known fugitive who was facing charges on attempted murder against Indian beauracrats and journalists. [2][3] It was a disaster and showed how the current prime minister likes to use public services to save his face and make false accusation against other governments and nations. The Minister even had to resign later for this. I’ve added two attributions for last point [2] and [3] a canadian and a indian media source as it wasnt widely publicised in Canada (considering how embarrassing it was for them) but was widely shown in India I linked only canadian sources and newspapers to give them the benefit of the doubt. [0](https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-timeline-of-events-in-the-jaspal-atwal-affair https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-time...) [1](https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ) [2](https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56 https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56) [3](https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw)
thrusong 3y ago
Apparently Robert Fife told the PMO they were going to run this. The government asked them to hold off for a week, and then The Globe and Mail said "no, we're running it in 24 hours."
martin8412 3y ago
The press was about to make it public.

mortureb 3y ago

Generally being amicable in situations like this where you are accused of serious issues is viewed as insulting. I’m not saying they didn’t do it, I’m just saying that even if they didn’t they wouldn’t take kindly to it just being thrown in their face.

pratikss 3y ago

Do you expect for someone to not be defensive after you accuse them of murder? And then how can you ask them to investigate themselves? In civilized countries false accusation is considered criminal offense. Accusation comes after evidence, not before or during investigation.

michael1999 3y ago

Because they did it, and resent being called on it. The USA reserves the right to assassinate any one, any where, at any time as long as someone with signing authority calls them a terrorist. The Russians have made a game of it with their exotic mix of radioactive poisons and throwing people out of windows. The current nationalist government of India is demanding these same prerogatives to match their self-conception of India and status as a major power. Or (only slightly) more charitably: India would have been happy to keen this quiet. But once Canada announced this, India had to respond. Their voters respond well to muscular gestures, so something flashy like a visa ban demonstrates their toughness. Canada had already generating some bad publicity in India, and beating up on us for a little bit will probably make number go up.

footlose_3815 3y ago
Russia doesn't assasinate terrorists though, they simply murder dissenters. The oligarchy has lots of enemies.
- areyousure 3y ago
  No comment on the broader claims of this comment, but "terrorists" are also a targeted group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili
- DoItToMe81 3y ago
  They do, when they view themselves as in immediate danger. They killed Ibn Al-Khattab by bribing his courier into delivering him a letter laced with nerve agent.
yumraj 3y ago
> Because they did it, and resent being called on it. based on what evidence??
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

yumraj 3y ago

So India should just accept being called a murderer without evidence, and expulsion of its diplomat as well as Trudeau’s clear support to Khalistanis in Canada. I don’t think so. The onus is on Canada to provide evidence, not on India. Remember, innocent until proven guilty - or would you like that legal principal to be changed? Secondly, I’ll say that silence is an admission of guilt. India is daring Trudeau to show evidence or retract.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
Innocent until proven guilty isn't a legal concept that applies to international relations, it is a colloquial phrase that clarifies rights in certain criminal cases. But also, "silence is an admission of guilt" is in direct contradiction to innocent until proven guilty. There are a variety of reasons why Canada might not provide proof to your satisfaction. One might be that it would expose intelligence channels that they are trying to keep alive (literally, in some cases). It has also only been a few days, and there is likely some pretty serious maneuvering on both sides where withholding information is important. I can also assure you that most Canadians, including the PM do not care in particular about "Khalistanis", or really know what that means in the context of Indian politics. Before this week, I would be surprised if most Canadians knew there was a rift between Hindus and Sikhs Canada does need to provide proof, but in Canadian politics you simply don't make an announcement like this as the PM without strong evidence.
- yumraj 3y ago
  So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. That'll be equivalent and acceptable right? India has provided ample evidence including via Interpol (whatever the process is called, red something notice or whatever) regarding various Khalistanis and Canada hasn't acted. Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. Just look at the videos of the Gurudwara in question, it has posters calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. Graffiti was painted in Hindu temples in Canada. Etc. Etc. It is very clear that Canadian governments and politicians have a soft spot for Khalistanis since they constitute a sizeable vote bank. I believe NDP leader is also a Khalistan sympathizer, has to be if he wants Sikh votes in Canada. Having said that, I still believe that this is not a rift between Hindus and Sikhs. This is limited to a vocal, but powerful, minority of Sikh diaspora. Khalistan is a non-issue within India, but can flare up which is why governments need to be careful. Edit: I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is, but I found this to be a rather logical opinion piece : https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash-assassination-accusation https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash...

0xDEF 3y ago

Considering all the Snowden fanboyism and anti-CIA/NSA sentiments on HN and reddit I expected people to be more critical of a Five Eyes intelligence service saying "just trust us bro".

wendyshu 3y ago
non sequitur

glonq 3y ago

I'd like to think that Canada has a clean enough reputation as decent global citizens that they've earned the benefit of the doubt on this one. India aspires to be a global superpower, and since there's few decent role models for how to do that they've decided that "reckless impunity and belligerence" is how it's done.