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We are not sustainable
- datadrivenangel 3y agoGood to see a full lifecycle assessment!
- logram-llc 3y agoDuplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37587748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37587748
- giantrobot 3y agoI wish I could scroll on mobile. Great job on your web design.
- xingped 3y agoNo idea what your issue is, but I had no problems with the site on mobile.
- abirch 3y agoI'm on mobile now. I'm using plain old chrome
- xingped 3y agoI checked Chrome and Firefox on Android and it was fine. I think the takeaway here is frontend development is difficult and finnicky especially when browsers don't cleanly conform to standards and users are allowed to run whatever plugins they want against web pages. No need to point the blame finger at the developers for imperfectly operating in such an imperfect environment. :)
- spartanatreyu 3y agoNo issues on Android with Chrome or Firefox
- mikestew 3y agoiOS Safari checking in: works on my machine.
- giantrobot 3y agoSafari with an ad blocker I get no scrolling at all.
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoiOS Safari w/ ad blocker + a few other extensions, I scroll fine.
- benatkin 3y agoMeanwhile at Google, Microsoft, and Apple: Greenwash all the things! \o/ https://sustainability.google/operating-sustainably/net-zero-carbon/ https://sustainability.google/operating-sustainably/net-zero... https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-be-carbon-negative-by-2030/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/01/16/microsoft-will-b... https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/07/apple-commits-to-be-100-percent-carbon-neutral-for-its-supply-chain-and-products-by-2030/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/07/apple-commits-to-be-1... Amazon has 2040 as a target, not sure if that says they're being more honest or it's because they deal more in physical products. https://sustainability.aboutamazon.com/climate-solutions https://sustainability.aboutamazon.com/climate-solutions
- kccqzy 3y agoI don't see how the links you've provided show that these companies are greenwashing anything.
- benatkin 3y agoIt provides one half of that, the article provides the other half. > And neither is any other device maker. This industry is full of "feel good" messaging, but generates 50 million metric tons of e-waste each year. And with my links it shows that these companies are doing feel-good messaging. I just thought I would call them out specifically. The link in the article goes in depth on how far it is from sustainability for one part of their operation, despite trying harder than most https://frame.work/sustainability https://frame.work/sustainability
- notpushkin 3y agoTitle feels clickbaity. At first I thought thry were talking about (not) being financially sustainable.
- rsyring 3y agoYou weren't the only one: https://community.frame.work/t/we-are-not-sustainable/36888/7 https://community.frame.work/t/we-are-not-sustainable/36888/...
- kelnos 3y agoHuh, I'm surprised, but that thought didn't even enter my head. Now that you mention it, it seems like such an obvious way to read the title that I'm vaguely embarrassed I didn't think of it.
- 0x38B 3y agoI saw the title in my email and had a moment of panic; my favorite laptop maker, in trouble? The first paragraph relieved my concerns and reading about Ryzen graphical performance on the Framework 13 got me thinking about upgrading my 11th gen i5 - Skyrim, the Mass Effects, and more recently Dishonored all run ok (often at 720p for decent FPS), but the multiplayer games my friends play are more than my system can handle. Framework is a deal that’s getting sweeter the longer they make laptops, as users like me forgo buying a new laptop in favor of a new main board, repurposing the old one (maybe a Retroarch box?).
- icegreentea2 3y agoThe life cycle assessment shows that over a five year life span, production is responsible for 65% of CO2e, and usage about 25% (out of a total estimated 200kg - roughly 86L of gasoline) using "a typical US energy mix". Component wise (during production), the largest CO2e contributor was the display at ~25%, then the mainboard at 20%, and then battery around 15%. Take aways for me are that: from a sustainability standpoint, if you're going to buy new, then it makes sense to buy the most capable model that makes sense, and try to milk it for as long as possible. Also, I never would have guessed how high the impact of display production was. Certainly makes the harvesting of screens from dead laptops seem like a good option.
- MrVandemar 3y ago> Certainly makes the harvesting of screens from dead laptops seem like a good option. Wouldn't it be awfully nice if the manufacturers made this easy to do.
- steve_adams_86 3y agoRegarding display production: I recently bought a Studio Display from Apple with the thought that it should last a very long time. It bricked itself with a software update after maybe 3 months. I realized these things depend on Apple supporting the A13 chip in order for it to remain compatible with new technologies and, absurdly, to remain secure from exploits. A monitor. I couldn’t regret my purchase much more and feel pretty stupid for not figuring this stuff out before I pulled out my credit card. To add insult to injury, the display has been getting repaired for almost 2 months and there’s still no ETA on a fix. I highly recommend looking elsewhere for a display, both for ecological reasons but also because these things likely have a software-driven expiry date, with their hardware being relatively complex and error prone compared to most displays. Also, they come with a barely usable camera. Audio is fine but it’s mind boggling how bad the camera is. What a waste.
- lucb1e 3y agoIf you want to get rid of it, multiple months for a good-as-new product is long enough to suggest they just keep it and give you the full money back instead. Laws may be different where you live, I'm not a lawyer, but that should work
- ewzimm 3y agoIf the whole tech industry generated 50 million metric tons per year, that’s about 6 kilograms per person on the planet per year, about a watermelon, and if you consider that even half of those are served by it, it’s a manageable amount of waste. The fact that it’s consolidated is a responsibility but also an opportunity to make big changes with every gain. I wish the tone here focused more on that opportunity.
- sharkjacobs 3y ago> and if you consider that even half of those are served by it Are they?
- ewzimm 3y agoPhilosophically, it’s up for debate, but whether they’re served well isn’t as important as if they’re using the products at all. Lowering the average consumer’s waste by just a few grams a year adds up fast.
- ianburrell 3y agoThe world CO2 emissions are 36 billion tons. 4.5 tons per person per year. The tech industry is .1% of that. There are more important things to worry, like how got to the store. More importantly, the tech industry is a lot of electricity and some other energy in production. Decarbonize electricity and electrify everything possible, which we must do, will solve the problem with tech. There is nothing extra that needs to be done.
- palata 3y ago> Decarbonize electricity and electrify everything possible, which we must do, will solve the problem with tech. There is nothing extra that needs to be done. Except that you don't have a miracle low-emission energy source. So whatever you "waste" in the tech industry, you don't use in, say, electric trucks. Also the tech industry emissions are growing pretty fast. For what? Mostly for people to swipe TikTok 4h per day.
- tomxor 3y ago> create products that last longer, meaning fewer new ones need to be made Yes this is the solution, but it's hard to not feel apathetic about the whole thing - Capitalism becomes consumerism - One company can have an ethos, but ultimately sustainability is not included in the cost function of the economic model. Framework are doing wonderful work, but in a sense (and I mean this in the most respectful way possible) there is only a subtle difference between green washing and making yourself feel better by being personally responsible and buying a framework laptop, because ultimately it doesn't fix the underlying economic and societal issues that dictate how the rest of the world operates. At best Framework can offer an example.
- noobermin 3y agoSmall comment on framework only somewhat related to its sustainability as a country. I live in Asia (Singapore) now after buying mine in America, and I cannot buy replacement parts now, even though most of the parts are made in Taiwan which is quite close to here. I am guessing it's likely because framework cannot make their nice markup if I buy from their Taiwanese suppliers directly, but it has dented somewhat the repairability of these things when the effective supply chain you have is not present (available for Americans and Europeans on their online store but not people in Asia).
- wmf 3y agoThey're adding countries one by one so Singapore should come eventually. They're not boycotting Asia or anything.
- kelnos 3y agoThe lack of availability isn't due to some nefarious profit-seeking plot, it's because selling a product like a laptop requires a bunch of regulatory and logistics work. That work takes time and money, and Framework has a limited supply of both.
- noobermin 3y agoAnd they found that time for europe because...the EU's regulatory environment is easier to deal with?
- theshrike79 3y agoThey're still not selling to the Nordics, even though (most of us) are in the EU or at least very similar law-wise.
- afiori 3y agoThe EU and the US are a bit bigger than Singapore. And yes, EU's bureaucracy is vastly simpler than that of "the combined rest of the world"
- totetsu 3y agoA once teacher of mine Sean Cubbit has some very good writing in the are of the environmental load of media and technology. Here is the intro to one of his books https://www.dukeupress.edu/Assets/PubMaterials/978-0-8223-6292-0_601.pdf?utm_source=blog&utm_medium=blog%20post&utm_content=b-CultPol_Dec16 https://www.dukeupress.edu/Assets/PubMaterials/978-0-8223-62...
- lostmsu 3y agoEntropy
- _8j50 3y agoCost aside, is an i5 cpu and nvme laptop from 6yrs ago noticably underperformant enough to consider an upgrade under standard web browing and document editing workloads? I think plastic-free metallic casing is a big deal for ewaste. But also, SoC convergence is a terrible thing. It would have been nice if components were modular. Imagine if the 4g/5g, bluetooth and wifi modules if the billions of phones out there could be reused. Even CPU and memory might be reused on servers. From a security perspective as well, the whole VM thing isn't working out. If server racks had like 100 cpus each with dedicated 4GB ram all in 2U, you can pin a process per cpu/related ram, but the best part is if the components are reused from consumer devices, they might be dirt cheap, and you can build a much more reliable setup where cpu/ram failing just means reduced capacity until you hotplug more.
- klooney 3y agoWeb browsing is rough on my circa-2015 laptop.
- tonyedgecombe 3y agoI bet it was fine before React.js came along.
- _8j50 3y agoI have a 2015 MBP with only 16GB ram that is my reliable and sturdy daily workhorse. Curious if your storage is hdd and your OS is windows?
- klooney 3y agoSSD, Linux, an Intel i5.
- duskwuff 3y ago> the best part is if the components are reused from consumer devices, they might be dirt cheap Older hardware takes substantially more power to do the same work (and more power at idle); in a datacenter environment, this also means more power consumption for cooling. There's a case to be made for keeping old hardware in service where possible, but this isn't a situation where it makes economic or environmental sense.
- paxys 3y agoEveryone forgets the first two Rs of conservation. Buying one electronic gadget and holding on to it for 5-7 years or longer, including being able to make repairs and upgrades, is vastly better for the planet then getting that new iDevice every year or two and feeling better about yourself because it is advertised as "sustainably made".
- gsky 3y agoI still use 12y laptop and I'm very of that even though people around me make jokes
- palata 3y agoSoftware developers tend to like their new toy and find excuses like "it's my job, so I need the latest hardware". They should realize that it makes them optimize their software for the latest hardware, and it forces everybody else to buy new hardware. People who make jokes about keeping old hardware need to understand that they are part of the problem.
- Yujf 3y ago"Optimize" as though most end user software is optimised. It is just written without much thought for perfomance most of the time
- kelnos 3y agoHeh, yeah, more like "it runs well enough on my top-of-the-line machine, so that's good enough for everyone".
- acuozzo 3y ago> Software developers tend to like their new toy This depends on the industry, I suppose. Out here on the east coast in the defense industry it's a badge of honor to have a stickered-up 12 year old ThinkPad running a BSD.
- langsoul-com 3y agoNow if only these laptops were a cost competitive price. Given the price, you can get much better.
- tonyedgecombe 3y agoNot if you want something repairable.
- kelnos 3y agoI keep reading this, but I just don't buy it. A while back I did some price comparisons with Dell, and found that while yes, Dell was cheaper, it wasn't by all that much. I think one piece of advice I'd give to people buying a Framework laptop is to go the DIY Edition route, and don't buy the RAM or NVMe drive from Framework. I got equivalent/better parts elsewhere and saved $350.
- Uptrenda 3y agoI really wish they would ship their laptops faster. I would buy one but don't really want to wait a year+. Guess my next laptop will probably be a ThinkPad.
- nrp 3y agoOur Intel-based Framework Laptop 13 is in stock, AMD-based has pre-orders going three months out, and Framework Laptop 16 pre-orders are about six months out.
- Uptrenda 3y agoThanks for the info. I hope you all keep doing well. The Framework Laptop is the most elegant design for a laptop I've seen and I definitely want to own one. Normal laptop repair and upgrade seems terrifying to a beginner. But with framework it seems like lego. I think it's actually cool as hell.
- _nalply 3y agoWhen I saw the title I panicked because I have a laptop from them. Oh no they close down! I was relieved that it was only about being them not sustainable for the Earth. How crazy is that? I am relieved that my laptop continues to be supported but for that we all might die later? Just because we all have our own selfish choices?
- Oleksa_dr 3y agoWhat Framework could really do. A keyboard like Lenovo legion/thinkpad, not something neutered in the style of Apple. Don't make a terrible proprietary video card slot, but use pci-e/u.2/oculink, etc. The battery charging controller should be a separate module, with only +/- and i2s/usb going to the motherboard (for charge information and control/firmware). And it should be quick-replaceable. The idea with external connectors needs to be refined. Still, it is worthwhile to output one high-speed USB on both sides as standard, 1 USB-A, 1-LAN, 1-DP Then allow 3-4 slots to insert some additional connectors. It's good if you want proprietary connectors. Then it's worth it, like for a video card. Then it is worth doing this more globally for CPU, RAM (CAMM), PCI-E. So that you can insert either high-speed memory or a so-dimm adapter. So that you can replace the processor, not the entire motherboard (no one will resell the old board, it will be in the garage like garbage). Develop 3-4 cases: light, medium, heavy gaming, heavy workstations. Make it an open standard so that it can be imposed on other manufacturers or enthusiasts. In general, we will get a square motherboard with connectors, to which you can attach or not attach connectors/slots. Today I have enough money only for ryzen 5, 16gb so-dimm, 1 m.2 and 3 usb. After 4 years, I would be able to replace with a ryzen 7, 64gb, 2 m.2 and 6 usb-c, and connect a modern graphics card at that time. As a startup, you have slow change and innovation, you already act like a corporation, although you don't have the burden of supporting many devices and compatibility. So for me, the "framework" looks like a typical greenwashing, which so far generates more garbage than a typical laptop (because no one changes anything there, like in your laptops with fake upgrades).