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Adobe will charge “credits” for generative AI
- kristopolous 3y agoBtw, there's already an open source way to do this https://github.com/AbdullahAlfaraj/Auto-Photoshop-StableDiffusion-Plugin https://github.com/AbdullahAlfaraj/Auto-Photoshop-StableDiff...
- xnx 3y agoNice. It looks like there are extensions for Photopea (https://github.com/yankooliveira/sd-webui-photopea-embed https://github.com/yankooliveira/sd-webui-photopea-embed) and Gimp (https://github.com/blueturtleai/gimp-stable-diffusion https://github.com/blueturtleai/gimp-stable-diffusion) too.
- Auracle 3y agoPhotoshop’s generative infill and expand are on an entirely different level from what Stable Diffusion can do right now. The fact that you can select an area, give it no prompt, and have it usually perfectly fill it in one of the 3 variations it gives you is magical.
- kristopolous 3y agoNot hard to do. It's auto-filling with an image tagger. That's not a technology so much as just a feature. There's 3 pretty widely used taggers in SD and you can combine them and then inpaint the region of interest. Putting some UX shimmer on that flow it is the feature there.
- Auracle 3y agoIt is hard to do. I've tried it. The person/people that originally made Controlnet was pretty amazed at how well Photoshop's works. Let's use an example of something I've done in Photoshop. Here's (roughly) how the image would be tagged: Bridal party, inside a mansion, stairs behind them. Now I try to get rid of table that's to the side that's in front of a window. What do you think will happen with those tags? It's surely not going to correctly put half of a window and then half of a wall, like it should be. I might get some bridal party, some stairs, etc. If you just tag the area I'm trying to get rid of it's going to be something like "wood table, window, photograph." Same issue.
- whywhywhywhy 3y agoStable Diffusion can do this technically, wouldn't be hard to add it to Photoshop or any other image editor.
- Auracle 3y agoYou can already do it with Photoshop/Krita/whatever plugins, but it won't work nearly as well. Adobe's version is incredible at understanding the photo or art, the style, and inpainting exactly what should be there without any prompt at all.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- stoicjumbotron 3y agoIs there anything similar for Affinity Photo?
- kristopolous 3y agoDoesn't look like anything has done the legwork yet. There's an opening for you!
- samwillis 3y agoI'm convinced this will be a short lived business revenue structure - paying per use of generative AI in the cloud. I'm sure that in the not too distant future (a few years at most) we will be happily running these on customer level hardware. I do wander if companies working to develop these type of revenue models truly think it's a long term structure?
- gochi 3y agoThey can upgrade hardware to bleeding edge faster than consumers can get their hands on remotely comparable products. Most consumers also don't upgrade every year to stay on bleeding edge, they just tolerate what they can currently do. While this will be fine for most, those actually using generative AI for work aren't likely going to tolerate stagnation as easily.
- coder543 3y agoI would have said the same thing about CAD simulations, but then Autodesk decided to move backwards and remove an existing feature just so they could charge for per-simulation credits: https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-be-removed-from-all-autodesk-fusion-360-versions/ https://hackaday.com/2022/08/12/local-simulation-feature-to-... Whether Adobe ever decides to let their model run locally or lock it forever into the cloud is a choice they will have to make. A lot of people trust Adobe products, so it's entirely conceivable that some people will always choose to pay for a pay-per-use generative solution from Adobe rather than try to run competing solutions locally. The question is probably whether it generates more revenue than negativity for Adobe. If most Adobe users are running their own models locally and avoiding the feature, then I think Adobe will be more likely to follow suit and move away from the pay-per-use cloud approach.
- flangola7 3y agoLong term they may offer both, with the local model consuming fewer credits per request. The new GPUs all have secure enclave remote attestation architecture, so Adobe would be able to offer this without the risk of someone jailbreaking the model and running it for free.
- tikkun 3y agoI suspect many companies will do something like this - prepaid credits or tokens for AI features that have high inference costs. Inference costs per user are high, at least much higher than most traditional software costs. This way, the costs are aligned with the usage. We’ll also see occasional subscription products, but only when it can be done in a way that is comfortably gross margin profitable for most users of a company. (Eg ChatGPT Plus, Claude Pro, Midjourney, 365 Copilot) This will only change when the cost of inference goes down by a lot.
- vunderba 3y agoI mean this is how DALL-E works, and they had a pretty good lock on the market until Stable diffusion came out and we got things like Midjourney.
- redox99 3y ago> Inference costs per user are high, at least much higher than most traditional software costs. This way, the costs are aligned with the usage. Meh, the price if MidJourney is like 2 orders of magnitude higher than their inference costs. The pricing is based on what they can get away with.
- gallabytes 3y agothis is not even close to true
- redox99 3y agoYeah, I'm sorry for the incorrect statement. MidJourney claims 3.3 hours of GPU for $10. If that's 3.3 hours of A100, at a rate of $2/hour that's $6.6 of GPU costs. My original statement was based on MJ feeling very expensive per image compared to the huge number of images I can generate in an hour with SDXL on my 3090 (and 3090s can be rented for $0.20 an hour). But I forgot how overpriced A100s are (I doubt MJ is running 3090s but that'd be pretty cool), and that MJ is probably 4x the size of SDXL (although surely more optimized). My revised statement is that for their $10 plan there's a few bucks of GPU compute cost. Probably between 2x and 5x margins.
- xwdv 3y agoHmm, what if they expand this to charge for small credits for various other tools? Filters, brushes, etc.
- Etheryte 3y agoPlease stop giving Adobe ideas.
- pphysch 3y agoERROR: 0.25oz of liquid remains in your Adobe™ x Mountain Dew™ Verification Can™. Please finish drinking to proceed using the software product. Thank you for your compliance.
- Traubenfuchs 3y agoAt this point you could just call it microtransaction. Imagine free, but extremely bare bones implementations of photoshop where anything but one brush and eraser is hidden behind individual or package deals.
- maxbond 3y agoOr you can buy a loot box of brushes.
- ThinkBeat 3y agoI was thinking the same thing. They have introduced the advanced filters in Photoshop. They display "running locally" (or something close to it) when used. I hope it won't be cloud only soon for even more $$$$$. For the subscription to even use PS, and then $ for using this or that feature.
- gitgud 3y agoIt only makes sense for things that run in the cloud, as they need to pay for that compute. Similar to costs “per request” in other cloud services like AWS. Although if Adobe did charge “per use” for locally run tools like brushes and filters… I’d hope they’d at least they’d make the billing completely “usage based” with no minimum monthly cost. But this is insane and evil, I’ll stick with Gimp and Inkscape
- tomschwiha 3y agoIt doesn't read too bad: Creative Cloud and Adobe Stock paid users can keep taking generative AI actions, but the use of generative AI features may be slower.
- asimpleusecase 3y agoI’ll not pay for it, I’ve tried the tool in beta and it’s nothing to write home about. And if they decide to get cute about other creative pricing of existing features - I hope people will move on.
- NikolaNovak 3y agoIs adobe trained on their own library of licensed images, as opposed to scraping whole internets? If so, even as a private individual just fooling around, I'll start using it from both legal and ethical perspective as long as it's reasonably equivalent to other models. And this from a person who's been fairly vocal against adobe's cloud subscription model ;-<. I can only imagine for anybody with a commercial need it would be an immediate no brain er - they'll have an established relationship, account and billing, they'll perceive it as integrating in their work flow, and it'll just become another part of the pipeline.
- greensoap 3y agoIt is trained on Adobe Stock and supplemented with openly licensed and public domain content. https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/03/21/responsible-innovation-age-of-generative-ai https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/03/21/responsible-inn...
- codetrotter 3y ago> ethical perspective If a photographer licenses a photo to Adobe Stock, they get paid every time someone pays to use the photo, right? But if Adobe trained their AI on photos you had licensed to Adobe Stock. Do you get compensated at all? If not, it’s not really different from what everyone else was doing in terms of ethics.
- xu_ituairo 3y ago“Generative credits provide priority processing of generative AI content across features powered by Firefly in the applications that you are entitled to. Generative credit counts reset each month.”
- slowhadoken 3y agoCreate a problem, charge for the solution.
- RoyalHenOil 3y agoI use Adobe Photoshop professionally, mostly to tweak technical images for educational purposes (e.g., removing extraneous visual data, like wires that partially obscure a component that the viewer needs to see). In its current state, at least, Photoshop's generative AI requires a lot of iterations to tweak the image into what I need (due to them requiring technical accuracy). Charging credits for this would make it nonviable.
- PaulHoule 3y agoI use it for things that are not so technical so I find I get results I like with very little work. For instance after I made a print I couldn’t unsee this white splotch so I had selected it and used generative fill without a prompt to make it go away https://mastodon.social/@UP8/110607460518784045 https://mastodon.social/@UP8/110607460518784045 when I put the corrected one on the wall together with a lot of prints it was not properly centered vertically (had to center the painting + shadow not just the painting) so I had generative fill draw another row of bricks at the bottom. I’m sure they don’t look exactly like the the corresponding bricks on the real wall but they are good enough for wall art It adds up to another reason to keep my Creative Cloud subscription instead of looking for an alternative.
- jclarkcom 3y agoOne thing that is t clear to most is that generative fill does not consider the contents of the area you are filling so asking it to remove something doesnt do anything - you’d have the same results by leaving the prompt blank
- PaulHoule 3y agoyep, I usually leave the prompt blank and get the result I want, I only write a prompt if I don't like what I get without the prompt. The thing is if you want to have it add a spaceship or a pretty girl or something like that to the photo it has to make more background to go with whatever you tell it it draw so it automatically draws something consistent with the scene without a prompt. There is a whole research area about tools that do "editing" so you could tell it to do something specific to an image, say "increase the exposure by 0.2 stops" (not that you need a.i. for that but somebody might rather do that than find the function in the UI) or "add a fourth motorcycle to the three motorcycles that are parked in a row" and that's even being done for 3-d models with NeRFs and point clouds and such but that's not what generative fill does right now.
- jonplackett 3y agoAt least they aren’t yet attempting a Unity and charging every time someone views a poster you made.
- bobse 3y ago>using Adobe products in 2023
- Auracle 3y agoThe stuff that they’ve added in 2023 alone is absolutely huge, as a photographer. The new Photoshop Remove tool along with the generative stuff has saved me hours upon hours of work. I’ve fixed images in seconds that would have taken 10 or 20 minutes before.
- cratermoon 3y agoThe GNU Image Manipulation Program: https://www.gimp.org/ https://www.gimp.org/
- Auracle 3y agoWhich has no equivalent tools to what’s being discussed.
- IAmGraydon 3y agoGIMP is about a decade behind Photoshop. Not a viable option for those who really use the full palette of tools.
- cratermoon 3y agoSee https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37509507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37509507
- broscillator 3y agohey at least link Krita instead, which is far better than gimp
- lofaszvanitt 3y agoKrita's generative thing is quite good, compared to pre firefly PS. Krita has the same UI based issues Gimp has, namely they didn't have the nerve to steal PS shortcuts and tools. Just do it already.
- broscillator 3y agoKrita does have GUI issues, but not nearly as hair tearing as GIMP's
- Sulf1re 3y agoThat's painful
- dbg31415 3y agoI have a powerful laptop, why does this have to be done in the cloud?
- IAmGraydon 3y agoBecause otherwise, how would they gouge you for more money?
- pkdpic 3y agoI'm using firefly for the first time on a paid academic account and Im immediately struck at how good it is at making graphic / illustrative images, but it seems to be at the cost of photographic / photorealistic images. ie I can't proompt engineer it into non-illustrative non-stylized images with "realistic photograph of..." etc I noticed the same thing with SDXL, DALL-E, Midjourney etc. It makes 100% sense from a business / tool standpoint but I miss the weird raw-internet vibe of Stable Diffusion <2 and other early versions of these tools. Could totally be my limited testing / imagination too. In any case it seems to be a capable illustrator, but I'm not surprised they're setting up a credit system. They must have put an insane amount of work to be first to ship on a big AI image editing suite.
- Auracle 3y agoI can generate perfectly realistic “photographs” on SDXL. You certainly don’t want to use the word ‘realistic,’ because real photos aren’t described that way. Just do “photo of blah blah,” or “blah blah, photo.”
- mortureb 3y agoAnything with credits is shit. It creates an artificial sense of scarcity and really sours my experience with a company. At the very least it should be something non fungible along the lines of “you can 200 generates a month”.
- blackoil 3y ago> creates an artificial sense of scarcity It isn't artificial, you are consuming resources and have to pay for it. You are not renting hardware for full month but buying some time share. It is similar to electricity from grid vs solar panels.
- josephcsible 3y agoIsn't the "artificial" part because Adobe could let people run it on their own GPUs, but they choose not to?
- nickthegreek 3y agoAdobe’s model is their IP and is trained on a bunch of images that they paid to be able to use. It’s the mode ethically produced model so far. We have no idea the size. There is zero chance they would let that model leak.
- mortureb 3y agoPeople consume resources doing a lot of things- your internet connection for example but a majority of home connections are essentially unlimited bandwidth for a fixed price. ChatGPT/Midjourney have found a way to bundle their offerings in a way that isn’t grating. It’s up to the companies to find a way to package that while still being able to make a reasonable margin so your customer base isn’t perpetually seething.
- sib 3y ago>> Pricing: Generative Fill, Generative Expand, Text to Image, Generative Recolor: 1 credit* >> *For standard images of up to 2000 x 2000 pixels. >> We plan to offer higher-resolution images, ..., in the future. The number of generative credits consumed for those features may be greater. When you think that a pretty common DSLR or mirrorless camera these days shoots a 40-50mp image, a 2000 x 2000 pixel baseline for 1 credit is pretty small.
- octacat 3y agoinstagram's highest resolution is 1350x1080 for photos.
- sib 3y agoPretty sure that "Instagram-only photographers" is not Adobe Photoshop's core audience. And even when uploading to Instagram, most editing is done on original images that are much higher resolution, which are then downscaled for use on IG.
- IAmGraydon 3y agoAdobe’s generative AI is pretty terrible compared to the competition. They have some way to go before many people will pay for this.
- bandrami 3y agoSoundcloud does this with their new AI audio mastering SaaS, which they push hard every time you upload a track (it comes with a view promotion boost). It does the audio equivalent of the too-many-fingers problem images have (it ducks pads to the snare along with the bass). This kind of reminds me of where we were with samplers in the late 80s, which makes me assume that we geezers will continue to complain and the new Marley Marl will appear and use the tech for something none of us can imagine right now.
- AaronNewcomer 3y agoCreative cloud all products plan gets 1000 credits per month. This seems pretty generous to me? I haven’t been using anywhere close to 1000 generative edits a month during the beta.
- kbos87 3y agoAll the takes here that this is something I should be able to do locally are missing the point to go on a tangent. The power of what Adobe is offering is generative AI in the context of proprietary photoshop tools. Can you feed a prompt to a model outside of photoshop and ask for a particular result? Of course. But if your workflow already happens in an Adobe product and you want a highly specific and predictable result from Ai trained on a highly specific action, that’s something that you really can’t efficiently replicate elsewhere.
- esperent 3y agoYou can use a plugin to get Stable Diffusion in Photoshop. From this video it looks like functionality and results are similar to using the Adobe AI. https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/11iuqhv/major_update_automatic1111_photoshop_stable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/11iuqhv/ma...
- AraceliHarker 3y agoIn general, it is necessary to generate the same image multiple times to get the AI to generate an image with the correct number and curvature of fingers. If it costs money every time, including failed images, it would be difficult to use, wouldn't it?
- distract8901 3y agoI really wish the FTC would do something about 'Microsoft points' and 'Nintendo shop coins' and other such non-currencies you must exchange real currency for in order to buy things. These companies should be forced to put a real dollar amount on their items. Companies should also be fined heavily for charging 4 coins for an item, but only selling the coins in increments of 17. It's an obvious scam.
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoLet me point to the gaming industry and giants like Riot games real quick.
- distract8901 3y agoYeah, and lootbox gambling should be regulated too, what's your point?
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoWe are in accord. These companies have made billions through what is effectively a scam and should be regulated.
- shortcake27 3y agoIf companies wish to make their own currency, they should be treated like a bank, and comply with the relevant regulations, including whatever regulations are necessary to create a new currency. IMHO PayPal dollars are the worst because they trick you into believing you hold currency when you don’t. PayPal may, at their discretion, allow you to convert your PayPal dollar to another currency. They also may take it away from you for no reason, without recourse - something that happens to thousands of people daily.
- octacat 3y agoOh, AWS uses both, does not help much. It has prices such as 0.000001$ per request (which is evil) and virtual currencies like Load Balancer Capacity Units (LCU). Circle CI has points too. Basically, everything so you would not figure out the total price easily.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago[dead]
- iancmceachern 3y agoThis is the exact same path Autodesk took. They added some generative design nd simulation features to fusion360, initially you could choose of it would be calculated locally on your machine or in the cloud. If in the cloud you had to buy "cloud credits". Over time the local computer option went away and everything cost cloud credits. About that time everyone bailed. They did the same thing with Eagle.
- lee101 3y ago[dead]