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United Auto Workers launches a historic strike against all Big 3 automakers
- great_psy 3y agoEconomically this seems like a ripe time for striking. US wants to onshore/friend shore production, so there is a demand for US workers at any cost. Barring automation replacements.
- reducesuffering 3y agoOnshore production already mostly happens, and it’s for superior non Big 3 vehicles like Toyota and Tesla. To me, it looks like the Big 3 autos are floundering severely, are the only ones unionized, and this strike / 40% pay increase demand is only going to further cripple the big 3’s ability to compete in the market. Ford and GM have already completely ceded sedans while Chrysler is a hollow shell
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoBut then who's gonna make oversized pickups?
- slantedview 3y agoThe big 3's profits were $250 Billion over the last 10 years. The idea that paying their workers fairly is going to cripple them is nonsense.
- aapl88889 3y agoThey big 3 currently have $354 Billion in debt.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- reducesuffering 3y agoLet's be a bit more specific. GM made $8.9 billion last year on $157 billion of revenue, a 5.7% sliver. A large portion of the costs to earn that revenue is labor, and they are asking a 40% increase of those costs, while GM had said 20%. This is a company with $118 billion in debt, which is increasingly going to roll over to much larger interest payments from now on, due to the Fed Funds rate of 5.25%. And they're trying to reinvest those profits into the transition to EV. If they don't do that, they're dead. This is also a company that made profits before going bankrupt just 15 years ago, which our taxes had to pay for. I don't want to see employees out of jobs ("every auto job is a good job" -UAW), nor do I think UAW is entirely well meaning when they've been shown trying to weaken EPA regulations[0] so they can pump out more polluting Camaros and Cadillacs for the past decade while Tesla created EV's. [0]https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uaw-wants-epa-soften-vehicle-emissions-plan-2023-07-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uaw-wa...
- jakupovic 3y agoIf they cannot pay their employees a fair wage someone else will. There is no need to cry for the rich overlords and lament their lack of more profit. This is just nonsense, the point of capitalism is to extract value efficiently, if Big 3 cannot, then other companies will. There is no in between or buts.
- consp 3y agoAs stated in the article the labor cost is less than 5%. It won't matter except for shareholder revenue.
- reducesuffering 3y agoWhere in the article does it say that?
- orwin 3y agoI mean, the C-suite have had a 40% pay increase, why shouldn't the worker have the same?
- comprev 3y agoBecause the C-suite are the people making the big decisions which resulted in the huge profits. The worker who attaches doors to the car on the shop floor had almost zero impact on the surge in profits because they are very restricted in scope of tasks.
- mptest 3y agoAnd yet those decisions would remain inert thought experiments without the workers, so maybe you, magic c suite geniuses aren't as unilaterally crucial as you think you are? Those workers did all the material enacting of those illustrious "big decisions". Record profits? Record wages.
- DennisAleynikov 3y agoInert thought experiment is one way to cope with this reality. How are the Detroit automakers, which are the only unionized ones meant to compete with the companies that completely ignore fair wages and don't even have unions begging for them? I'm not against paying people fair wages but automakers aren't exactly train companies that run at a loss and for the public good (being propped up by the government) I guess we could prop up automakers with tax funds and pay fair wages and somehow ignore all the other market forces but... Why? We already prop them up with subsidized roads and infrastructure...
- apsurd 3y agoWhy should we subsidize auto makers with exploitative labor if they are already subsidized by roads, infrastructure, bailouts and still claim struggle? let the market dictate their death. it's just those free market forces. and if it's a matter of national security that we make autos then it answers itself; some kind of military subsidy. Exploitative labor seems like a silly thing to _justify_ as a free market force.
- IntelMiner 3y agoI'm not sure I'd call Tesla "superior" to the "Big 3" Pointing out the endless flaws in Tesla cars that have rolled off the line (joints that don't quite align, slight blemishes etc) are a running joke for many of its detractors Not to mention the absolute clown fiesta of Elmo's "Cybertruck"
- reissbaker 3y agoIt is far superior in number of cars sold to the Big 3, which is what matters. (The Big 3 barely sell more "vehicles," but that's mostly trucks, not cars — Tesla beats them in every category in which it competes.)
- rendang 3y agoWell, regulators in many countries and states have signaled that ICE is on the way out. If you look at market share among BEVs domestically, Tesla is very dominant, over half the market.
- reducesuffering 3y agoWhere are the new Ford, GM, and Chrysler sedans to be found anywhere? Outcompeted. What was the best selling SUV in the US? Model Y. Or how about the obvious future of just EV's in general? Tesla at ~350k sales, Ford MachE and GM Bolt aren't even scraping 10k.
- iancmceachern 3y agoAgreed. One note. The auto industry in the US is just about as automated as possible, given current tech, economics, etc.
- zapdrive 3y agoThere's always room for more automation. Tesla, for example, is much more automated in many areas.
- johneth 3y agoTheir build quality issues and problems producing CyberTruck aren't exactly great advertisements for excessive automation.
- iancmceachern 3y ago(I've worked on some automation projects for them) They actually shoot themselves in the foot often. They often over automate from the beginning, force too much, figure out it won't work, then just end up doing it how Ford does.
- est 3y ago> Tesla, for example, is much more automated in many areas By out-sourcing jobs to China. > According to new figures released by the CPCA, Giga Shanghai was responsible for the production of 710,865 vehicles in 2022. And given Tesla sold 1,313,851 cars last year, that means 54.1 percent came from the Chinese plant
- xorcist 3y agoBy what metric? The numbers I've seen indicates the opposite, although against European peers. But I don't know how reliable the numbers are, as the real data is probably a trade secret. The differences were really small however, and you might be able to slice them differently for a different result.
- ryathal 3y agoThe closest I've seen to Tesla using more automation was just Musk spouting off random bullshit. Actual deep dives have shown that the automation tesla was trying to do isn't ready and they spent as long or longer fixing every car, often meaning they had lower output and more human involvement than competitors.
- chmod600 3y agoIs this just a final battle for the remaining scraps of money in a dying industry? Or is this a real, substantive negotiation that will push the industry to a better place?
- slantedview 3y agoThe big 3 made over $21 billion in profits in the first half of this year. This isn't about fighting over scraps, it's about fighting for a fair share of the wealth produced by workers.
- DennisAleynikov 3y agoThat's gross profit, which doesn't mean cash. The profit was about 4b which, okay let's give everyone in UAW a share of that and... Oh it's so small that it doesn't fix anything?
- tyingq 3y agoThere's also exec comp, stock buybacks, dividends, etc. If you believe unions can help shift wage inequality, net profits isn't the only bucket to draw from.
- aapl88889 3y agoThe big 3 also had $354 billion in debt. Will workers pay that down too?
- gnicholas 3y agoIt's not scraps of a dying industry if every time you die you get tens of billions in bailout money. [1] 1: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wharton-podcast/auto-bailout-ten-years-later-right-call/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/podcast/knowledge-at-wha...
- DennisAleynikov 3y agoThis only furthers the point being made. Why are we keeping them on life support?
- mjevans 3y agoI wonder if they'd settle for a (retroactive relatively) reduction in CEO Pay, coupled by an increase of at least the CEO's pay increase or better relative to the last contract period. ## HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE ## + Prior to contract CEO made 10,000,000 per year. Since then they (currently) make 14,000,000 per year. + Union is asking for 40% increase to match CEO's increase. ? Would the union accept CEO's total compensation package, including retroactive to cover the same period, decrease to E.G. 20% (CEO now makes 12,000,000 per year in this hypothetical) with a union member INCREASE of 20% or greater (possibly including a one time contract signing bonus to cover the back period)?
- kemotep 3y agoIs the CEO cut in pay to cover the costs of pay raises? The article mentions that 13,000 workers will be striking but if we round that down to 10,000 a 2 million dollar CEO pay cut would cover a 10 cent per hour pay raise for those workers. This strike is against all three major US automakers so matched between all three CEOs would be a 30 cent per hour raise. And there are 150,000 UAW members. I imagine the workers are asking for more than a few hundred dollar in annual salary raise. A 20% pay raise of 10,000 people making $50,000 a year would cost 100 million dollars.
- iancmceachern 3y agoNot the point. The point is, if company has enough to give thr CEO a raise, they have enough to give the average employees raises. Further than that, they should prioritize the average employee. Meaning, if they have extra money, give it to the average employees first, then if there is leftover, give it to the management. A rising tide raises all ships.
- kemotep 3y agoMore my point is that the shareholders need to accept less profits. It would cost Ford, if they had all 150,000 UAW, only 4% of their profits from last year to give out the 6 billion dollars necessary to give a 40% raise if those workers made 100,000 per year. And the CEO’s raise of 4 million is a fraction of a percentage of that. I understand your point but the math doesn’t make sense when you talk about a few million dollars for the CEO. The 4 million dollar raise is 1% of the money necessary to give 10,000 workers 40,000. Yes the workers deserve a raise, and so that’s why they are striking. The CEO’s raise at this time is simply poor taste but not an apples to apples comparison. If instead of a union, these companies had a codetermination model like in Germany this whole matter wouldn’t happen.
- wongarsu 3y agoIn case anybody else was wondering who the Big 3 are: the article talks about the Detroit 3, which are Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis (the merger of Fiat-Chrysler and Peugeot with Dutch headquarter).
- radlad 3y agoBoston 3?
- ductsurprise 3y agoTea Party Trifecta?
- wongarsu 3y agoFixed, that's what I get for not drinking enough coffee
- jansan 3y agoOh, I used to work in the automotive instry but somehow missed that Stellantis regrouping and rebranding. Hope they can find some synergies between Dodge and Citroen.
- kergonath 3y agoThat would be a hell of a Frankencar, though!
- sofixa 3y agoThere has been no rebrand, Stellantis is just the group name for the former FCA and PSA groups. All previously existing brands will continue to exist as before, just now based on common platforms and targeting different markets, same as before, just on a bigger scale. E.g. PSA bought Opel from GM (and did a massive turnaround making it profitable in 2 years while it was loss making for decades before) to have a German brand known for quality to target markets where French brands were known as unreliable. An Alfa Romeo SUV, a Jeep SUV and a Peugeot SUV are targeting entirely different markets, even if the underlying vehicle is pretty much the same. > Hope they can find some synergies between Dodge and Citroen They probably will, the CEO is very good, and as mentioned earlier, PSA (he was CEO there before FCA lost their own hero CEO and decided to merge with PSA) managed to turn around Opel quite quickly.
- altacc 3y ago> During the 2008 financial crisis, the UAW made major concessions to help auto companies get back on their feet. Workers are still feeling the effects of those concessions to this day... > Collectively, the Big Three automakers have seen their profits soar This is why you need unions. Most businesses will happily screw over workers whenever they can to maximize profits and the workers are lucky if they get peanuts back when they're swimming in cash. Ford makes the hyperbolic claim that agreeing to UAW demands would bankrupt them as it would cost $15 billion. Their profit in the last 12 months is $25 billion. The maths is more complex than simply 25-15 but shows how companies will obviously lie to protect their shareholder profits.
- rahimnathwani 3y agoTheir profit in the last 12 months is $25 billion. No, Ford made only about $4bn in the last 12 months: https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm You might have googled 'gross profit' which isn't the same thing, as it doesn't account for the many costs of running a capital-intensive business, like machines and stuff.
- gamblor956 3y agoNo, that's 4bn net profit for the last quarter. The table below the chart makes it abundantly clear that they are reporting quarterly numbers.
- rahimnathwani 3y agoNo, it's the 12 months to the end of the last quarter. The title of the table you reference makes it clear they're reporting TTM numbers. TTM = Trailing Twelve Months In general, the frequency of reporting doesn't have to match the measurement period. For example, inflation is often reported monthly, even though it measures the change in the level of prices since a year ago.
- kawhah 3y agoWell what's the profit of the other two? Does it add up to $21 billion?
- ductsurprise 3y agoCan Youtube/Twitch/etc manage to fulfill this product gap too? Seriously though, yes... Support The Unions! Stay strong!
- rendang 3y agoIt makes sense that in such a tight labor market, unions would be flexing their strength. What would really be a big deal is if union participation starts taking off, e.g. by some of the car plants in the South unionizing
- cHaOs667 3y ago"... in the US" - that is missing in the title.
- travisporter 3y agolots of talk of automation and Tesla - can anyone give more insight into Teslas purported new building technique and whether it’s actually innovative? https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/14/23873345/tesla-gigapress-gigacasting-manufacturing-breakthrough https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/14/23873345/tesla-gigapress-...
- 7e 3y agoUnions: organizations whose sole purpose is to acquire a monopoly on the means of production. They’re parasites, but corporations are worse. Don’t let either ever gain the upper hand.
- xnx 3y agoSimilar to the writers strike and AI, auto workers are facing a future of electric cars that require less labor to build.
- ryzvonusef 3y agoTesla is moving to a McDonald style system; create a few big giga-castings of the main car body parts; create modules that fit exactly into those castings, assemble the few modules and castings in a few simple steps. these steps minimise human or eliminate human use, and encourage either robotization, or task simplification to such an extent that labour can easily be replaced with another with minimal training. example from autoline channel, showing how simplified the assembly system can become with the casting base: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawGMl8sHzc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawGMl8sHzc And Tesla is just going further with the casting https://www.reuters.com/technology/gigacasting-20-tesla-reinvents-carmaking-with-quiet-breakthrough-2023-09-14/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/gigacasting-20-tesla-rein... https://youtu.be/0Ukp4tm0JkM?t=196 https://youtu.be/0Ukp4tm0JkM?t=196 this means that ICE vehicle skills are becoming exceedingly irrelevant. Obviously not everything is gone, but imagine how simple it is to train or replace fast food workers; or how easy it is to assemble furniture ikea-style. A lot of ICE- skills are now not required in EVs, and these workers will have to find alternatives. Striking just delays the inevitable.