4 ms·

It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and ta

It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation. Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.

marcinzm 3y ago
>Capital is winning. When hasn't it won in the western world?
- throw0101c 3y ago
  > When hasn't it won in the western world? In the US, post-WW2 until Reagan got elected.
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    They still won just not as much as now.
    - the-smug-one 3y ago
      I agree, us non-capitalists took more of the cake back then.
      - marcinzm 3y ago
        Unions in tech won't recreate the 1950s. The reason capital always wins is because it can be moved around more easily than specialized workers can change their skill set. If you extract more of the pie in one area then capital (and thus growth) will just move to a different areas. Could be different industries or companies in different countries. They still win while your occupation and growth in earnings stagnates.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Whenever unions are strong. (Was that a rhetorical question?)
iteria 3y ago
Is that true? I am only a dataset of one, but while my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up. We can say that employers should reward employees who stay, but in an industry where getting your next job is trivial (in my experience anyway), I just say sucks to be those companies when I take my institutional knowledge with me. Also it's been my experience that remote work has put real pressure on local companies to pay higher than they did before the pandemic. I work in the Atlanta Metro, so it's not like it's a place you think of when you think tech.
- runako 3y ago
  > my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau.
  - iteria 3y ago
    > > my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up > There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau. I've been doing this for over 10 years. When is the plateau coming? Even lateral moves for me bump my paid up to whatever market is at the moment. Maybe that's just a 5K bump if i left in a hurry, but it's not like I lost money to inflation with a jump. I demoted myself during the pandemic due to family stuff and even taking a lesser title I still got a pay bump. I'm still of the opinion that enough money exists, but I just haven't ever experienced that my salary has gone down with a job jump I've experienced meager annual raises and skipped bonuses, but I've never not been reset to market rate however many thousands of dollars that is. I think my record for a salary jump was 40K? I stayed at a jump I liked for like 5 years. Even still, I never felt my lifestyle decrease in those 5 years. I was always paid enough and I remember once there was a 12% raise in there to help that we were too far behind market rates.
    - 3y ago
chii 3y ago
> Capital is winning. and a reactionary union isn't really the way to fix "capital winning". Because the idea that capital "wins" is flawed imho. It's not that capital is winning, it's that capital is the part of the equation which has bargaining power. The reason for that is hard to say, but i am guessing that most workers are not really unique or special enough to warrant having them the same bargaining power as capital. After all, capital is required to establish the job in the first place. Forcing a union, to prevent capital from "winning" merely makes capital less effective at providing their function - investment and growth of the economy. This makes capital leave.
- pyreticRitual 3y ago
  Capital will always have information asymmetry. There’s also the fact that the worst case scenario for a capitalist is that they become an employee. The worst case for an employee is they end up homeless.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    A “capitalist” can also become homeless. Small business owners have to secure loans with personal assets and bad bets / legal liabilities are abound. Established business shareholders probably do not have this problem.
    - pyreticRitual 3y ago
      If they fail at being an employee, yes.

marcinzm 3y ago

>Capital is winning. When hasn't it won in the western world?

throw0101c 3y ago
> When hasn't it won in the western world? In the US, post-WW2 until Reagan got elected.
- marcinzm 3y ago
  They still won just not as much as now.
  - the-smug-one 3y ago
    I agree, us non-capitalists took more of the cake back then.
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      Unions in tech won't recreate the 1950s. The reason capital always wins is because it can be moved around more easily than specialized workers can change their skill set. If you extract more of the pie in one area then capital (and thus growth) will just move to a different areas. Could be different industries or companies in different countries. They still win while your occupation and growth in earnings stagnates.
marcosdumay 3y ago
Whenever unions are strong. (Was that a rhetorical question?)

iteria 3y ago

Is that true? I am only a dataset of one, but while my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up. We can say that employers should reward employees who stay, but in an industry where getting your next job is trivial (in my experience anyway), I just say sucks to be those companies when I take my institutional knowledge with me. Also it's been my experience that remote work has put real pressure on local companies to pay higher than they did before the pandemic. I work in the Atlanta Metro, so it's not like it's a place you think of when you think tech.

runako 3y ago
> my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau.
- iteria 3y ago
  > > my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up > There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau. I've been doing this for over 10 years. When is the plateau coming? Even lateral moves for me bump my paid up to whatever market is at the moment. Maybe that's just a 5K bump if i left in a hurry, but it's not like I lost money to inflation with a jump. I demoted myself during the pandemic due to family stuff and even taking a lesser title I still got a pay bump. I'm still of the opinion that enough money exists, but I just haven't ever experienced that my salary has gone down with a job jump I've experienced meager annual raises and skipped bonuses, but I've never not been reset to market rate however many thousands of dollars that is. I think my record for a salary jump was 40K? I stayed at a jump I liked for like 5 years. Even still, I never felt my lifestyle decrease in those 5 years. I was always paid enough and I remember once there was a 12% raise in there to help that we were too far behind market rates.
  - 3y ago

chii 3y ago

> Capital is winning. and a reactionary union isn't really the way to fix "capital winning". Because the idea that capital "wins" is flawed imho. It's not that capital is winning, it's that capital is the part of the equation which has bargaining power. The reason for that is hard to say, but i am guessing that most workers are not really unique or special enough to warrant having them the same bargaining power as capital. After all, capital is required to establish the job in the first place. Forcing a union, to prevent capital from "winning" merely makes capital less effective at providing their function - investment and growth of the economy. This makes capital leave.

pyreticRitual 3y ago
Capital will always have information asymmetry. There’s also the fact that the worst case scenario for a capitalist is that they become an employee. The worst case for an employee is they end up homeless.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  A “capitalist” can also become homeless. Small business owners have to secure loans with personal assets and bad bets / legal liabilities are abound. Established business shareholders probably do not have this problem.
  - pyreticRitual 3y ago
    If they fail at being an employee, yes.