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Marvel Visual Effects Workers Vote to Unionize
- isanjay 3y agoGreat news
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoQuestion: Why can't this be done for the entire industry like it is for the on-set crew?
- orochimaaru 3y agoI think writers already have a Union? Not sure if it’s the same one as the on set crew
- Aqua_Geek 3y agoThere are several unions in film/TV. Writers are usually part of the WGA. Directors have their own, as do editors, producers, cinematographers, etc.
- ceejayoz 3y agoMy understanding is that on-set crew and actors are hired by a temporary company set up for that movie specifically. When it's done, they're all out of a job and need to find a new temporary company to work for. This makes unionization of the individual temporary companies essentially impossible. The same isn't true for folks who work directly for Marvel on an ongoing basis.
- robotresearcher 3y agoIt's not companies that unionize, it's people. These temporary movie companies employ writers, actors, directors, electricians etc that belong to unions.
- ceejayoz 3y agoThe people can't unionize a company that exists for less time than the average unionization campaign takes to form one. This is why the writers and directors in Hollywood are able to unionize as an industry rather than per-company. (See, in contrast, the recent Starbucks unionizations; each individual location votes and creates their own union with a dozen or so members.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining > Sectoral bargaining was promoted by the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, but struck down and replaced by enterprise bargaining under the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. Today industries like screenwriting, hotels, and railroads still see sectoral bargaining predominate.
- CyberDildonics 3y agoWhat you just described has nothing to do with vfx at all. Actors and on set crew are already unionized.
- ceejayoz 3y ago> Actors and on set crew are already unionized. Again, in a special way that is not common in the US, because of the transient nature of movie productions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining Actors and crew have things like the SAG that negotiate with the movie industry as a whole, because it's functionally impossible for them to unionize otherwise. If you're a unionized Starbucks worker, they don't negotiate with the coffee industry, they negotiate with management at your one particular Starbucks store, because that store is an ongoing permanent concern. VFX artists employed by a permanently-existing organization like Marvel don't need this exception. (Ones employed by a transient production company for a single film would.)
- CyberDildonics 3y agoWhy are you acting like an industry wide union is some exceptional thing that can't happen? There have been union vfx and animation studios in the past. The industry is broken up into many companies, which is why people talk about unionizing as a whole. What is the actual point you are trying to make here?
- rperez333 3y agoBecause it’s easy to shift VFX work to another location. Even a decade ago, VFX studios were popping up almost overnight in Vancouver. All you needed was to rent some space and thin clients. Today we barely need to rent any space.
- jonny_eh 3y ago> All votes cast in the election — held by mail between Aug. 21 and Sept. 11 Wow, it was unanimous :o I wonder how many people voted, or had the opportunity to vote.
- jonchang 3y agoThese kinds of union votes are all publicly available online with the NLRB, if you want more details: https://www.nlrb.gov/case/31-RC-323290 https://www.nlrb.gov/case/31-RC-323290
- Animats 3y agoOnly 41 employees, though. Disney has another 18 in-house VFX employees, and their election is coming up. This doesn't cover subcontractors, who do most of the work. Those are all those companies, and thousands of people, you see in the end credits.
- yurymik 3y ago> thousands of people, you see in the end credits if you look closely, those usually on-set people, medics, drivers, catering services - those who have unions. VFX companies in most of the cases have a dozen of entries out of hundreds who actually worked on the title, or just a single line company mention. I could understand this practice in cellulose era, but saving a few megabytes at the cost of disrespect to your workers is simply despicable.
- MrScruff 3y agoIt's not quite that bad, the vast majority of people who work on a Marvel project at a vfx vendor will get a credit, though often in a huge bank of names. It's true that the ordering is driven by historical considerations which is why vfx credits typically aren't that high. I think the issue with credits is nothing to do with the storage, it's to do with the impact of the run time of the film.
- ivan_gammel 3y agoMarvel made their fans watching all credits because of a teaser of a next movie at the very end, so I did it a few times: it actually feels like VFX is consuming now the biggest part of the credits with several production units and at least a few hundred people.
- plastic3169 3y agoIt would be nice to have statistics. People say VFX heavy blockbuster film has few thousand people working out of which 2/3 can be VFX artists. Even Oppenheimer had over hundred artists and it’s famous for not having any VFX. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/christopher-nolan-forgot-to-credit-more-than-80-of-vfx-artists-on-oppenheimer-230775.html https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/christopher-nol...
- TaylorAlexander 3y agoIf you’re curious about unions, I always find the Taft-Harley Act of 1947 fascinating for how it curtailed the efficacy of unions in this country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act?wprov...
- borlanco 3y agoThis isn't new. Confucius was well aware of it 2400 years ago, and it's for everyone. If you abuse your powers, you will lose them.
- hooverd 3y agoI would hardly call striking over poor conditions abusing your powers. You could say the same thing about the rationale for any government crackdown.
- pierat 3y agoOnly the people of the business and owner class would think they're entitled to forced workers. Strikes and unionization are ways that individuals can become in parity with the owner class. Each side has something the other needs.
- borlanco 3y agoTo be able to reach some understanding among us, let me point out that my statement was philosophical (about how the world works) and your statement was political (about who is right). This distinction is important. In politics, understandably, everyone believes that their actions are right. Those beliefs inevitably lead to warfare. That's why I don't believe in politics. I stick to philosophy now, knowing that the quiet contemplation of the world, without taking sides, will yield some lasting benefits, without reckless wars destroying the insights about ourselves that we have already collected and named 'progress'.
- hooverd 3y ago
- marinman 3y agostand tall, union strong
- russh 3y agoIt's a start, next up, unions and living wages for all extras!!!
- rcarr 3y agoNot sure extras have any bargaining power unfortunately, they might not even exist in 5 to 10 years with the rate of technological advancement. See this video by Corridor Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62-aWHGKeMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62-aWHGKeMo
- hooverd 3y agoI bet they have cool swag. Great!
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y agoI guess they haven't gone through the corporate training.[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeGBHxIyHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeGBHxIyHw
- lnsru 3y agoMaybe it’s different in USA. But unions in Germany basically mean, that one would get salary according Union table for particular federal state. Plus the working conditions are a bit better than in owner led companies. However union can’t do anything about layoffs or toxic teams. So thanks to unions all white collar salaries are capped at somewhere near 120000€.
- netrus 3y agoWherever there is a Tarif, there are Außertarifliche Angestellte who can freely negotiate their salary, if it is at least 110% of highest Tarifgehalt. Unions cannot do anything about layoffs because that's the job of the workers council. Who are quite powerful in that regard . Unions are for coordination across the whole industry. Sure, you can still have a toxic boss - bit she cannot fire you at will!
- soultrees 3y agoWe’re going to see this more and more. Here in Vancouver there is a push from the VFX artists and there is some sort of local band-but-not-union that seems to stick together. I won’t be surprised to see VFX, in IATSE in the near future but then it will be the 3D Artists who are being shafted. So much filmmaking requires unreal engine work these days and those guys are being shit on in the industry at the moment.
- edgarvaldes 3y agoI like to check in IMDB the size of the Visual Teams in movies. Avenger Endgame (2019) credits 2,203 names in Visual Effects. Death on the Nile (2022), credits 832. CODA (2021), credits 14 people.
- pvg 3y agoBig related discussion last month https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37041394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37041394 and a bit a couple of weeks ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37298302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37298302
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoRight, why is this being reported on heavily now when it was news a month ago?
- pvg 3y agoIt's a different step of the process and the news reports all of them because it's what the news does, I guess? Plus labour relations in the entertainment industry are a big ongoing topic. Big source of HN-dupes (because the 'News' in HN is a fiendish misdirection), as you know, but HN-dupery and its quirks are HN-local.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoIATSE announcement: https://iatse.net/marvel-studios-vfx-workers-unanimously-vote-to-unionize-with-iatse-marking-historic-first/ https://iatse.net/marvel-studios-vfx-workers-unanimously-vot...
- throwawaysleep 3y agoGood for software and AI engineers.
- actuallyalys 3y agoYes, if this inspires software and AI engineers to unionize, we’ll all be better off.
- doubleg72 3y agoYeah, I will check back and see how you feel in a few years after all the dev jobs have been farmed out overseas to somewhere like Nigeria.
- klipklop 3y agoIf they could have done that, they would have already done so.
- WillPostForFood 3y agoThat they couldn't do it in the past doesn't mean they can't in the present or future. Throw a little AI into your offshoring and domestic software development is going to take a hit.
- filereaper 3y agoThey said the same thing in the 90s about getting Bangalored. Yet all the FAANGs and other startups are still headquartered in the US.
- ThrowawayR2 3y agoDid you know that "Made in Japan" and "Made in Taiwan" used to be a mark of cheaply and badly made junk only a few decades ago? Back then, Americans were pretty confident that the United States would remain dominant in manufacturing indefinitely, particularly in at the time high-tech stuff like electronics and automotive manufacturing, and that other countries would have a hard time catching up. What a difference a few decades makes...
- egypturnash 3y agoaaaaaaaw yeah!
- steele 3y agoNick Fury is doing one heck of a job
- nonethewiser 3y agoIf your industry needs a union to avoid getting fucked, you should ideally find a better career. I feel like I’m pretty neutral on unions. Not inherently bad, sometimes vital, but they can be a parasite on companies while being a double edged sword for labor. For example, I think legacy auto and its workers are in a tough spot with thin margins and offshoring. There is basically a shrinking pool of American workers needs being met at the expense of everyone else. Game dev is also an interesting case because the problem comes from workers who are so desperate to be in the industry despite better options. They can already have better pay and work conditions. Just not from the companies they want it from.
- mkatx 3y agoYeah, f whatever your passion is.. just get a good job.
- aksss 3y agoOr pursue your passion in a way that brings unique(ish) value, rather than doing what a commodity quantity of other people can (evidently) do. No problem with a commodity labor pool trying to collectively bargain higher wages, but if you're collectively bargaining it's a good sign you're a commodity labor resource, and if you're a commodity labor resource the market and your CBA put a cap on what you can expect to earn. It's good for some people but certainly never the only option for an individual.
- Arrath 3y ago> Game dev is also an interesting case because the problem comes from workers who are so desperate to be in the industry despite better options. Employees motivated to do the job they want to do is a problem, not the employers taking advantage of that passion?
- unsupp0rted 3y agoIt’s a marketplace. If employees aren’t taking advantage of employers when expecting more pay then employers aren’t taking advantage of employees when expecting less pay. I’m neutral on unions too. Labor unions for laborers make sense. The single industrial plant that employs every dad in our town shouldn’t have that much power over our lives. Unions for laptop jockeys who can work in any city in the country or even other countries? If you don’t like your conditions go get different conditions elsewhere.
- chargingmarmot 3y agoAn August 2022 Gallup poll showed that US approval of labor unions was at its highest point since 1965 (71%, up from 48% in ~2010; comparable to levels of 70-75% in the 1940s-60s). [1] [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-highest-point-1965.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-hi...
- unforeseen9991 3y agoThat's an amazingly refreshing trend
- drannex 3y agoUnions work, unionize.
- irjustin 3y agoIt's insane how studios never last no matter how talented nor creative. It seems like there's no way to command a price long term that keeps a studio alive.
- echelon 3y ago> studios never last What do you mean by this? I'm assuming you're implying that film, game, and other creative studios all collapse at some point for one reason or another? I don't think that's the case. Walt Disney Animation Studios has been around since 1923. Lots of studios endure for a long time.
- tetris11 3y agoI think they're' pointing to the recent trend of 3D animation studios other than Pixar and DreamWorks.
- CyberDildonics 3y agoThey are obviously talking about vfx studios that do work for hire instead of animation studios that make money off of their own movie releases. Vfx studios do not make money based on how successful a movie is.
- yogurthewise 3y agoAdam Savage describes the problem at the end of this video: https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575 https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575
- yogurthewise 3y agoAdam Savage does a good job explaining the issue at the end of one of his tested videos: https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575 https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575