8 ms·

French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

93 points by nico401 3y ago

helsinkiandrew 3y ago
Apples no longer sells the iPhone 12 (disappeared from their website a few days ago) but what phone technology is the iPhone SE now?
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  I have an iPhone SE that's (apparently) 2nd generation 2020 - same year as iPhone 12. I'm a bit worried now.
  - MYEUHD 3y ago
    The iphone SE (2020) has the body of an iphone 8 with the chip of an iphone 11 It's not related in anyway to the iphone 12, and was in fact released several months before it
    - the_gipsy 3y ago
      Thank you very much for those details!
NavinF 3y ago
> testing found that the model emits more electromagnetic waves susceptible to be absorbed by the body than permitted SMH, they're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation
- yanellena 3y ago
  The phone doesn't meet the regulations which means it can't be sold. Whether they're good regulations or not is another matter.
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    I wonder why it took them 3 years to find out, I thought these radiation tests are pretty basic these days due to cancer scares some decade and half (?) ago. I think gsmarena publishes similar values in their summary pages, but maybe its just copy paste from release material.
    - tuyiown 3y ago
      > I wonder why it took them 3 years to find out From the ANFR publication [1] «141 mobile phones, including Apple’s iPhone 12, have recently been tested to check compliance with limit SAR values». I suspect they simply weren't tested before. sigh. [1] https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit...
      - Algent 3y ago
        Most EU regulations let manufacturers self certify they are observing them. This should come with heavy testing but sadly this is so irregular you can get away with a lot. A few years ago a French tech journal caught several huge chinese PSU maker who claimed they had all certification but during actual testing they would catch fire or short under 50% of rated load.
    - fersarr 3y ago
      Yea this should have been acted on faster. I wish we had more of this data easily available for everything. Ear buds are directly next to our heads.
    - bondant 3y ago
      I guess this is because the agency is underfunded. Their missions are not only to check the radiation on new phones but also to check all 2G/3G/4G/5G in France (about 200k) and investigated in case of radio-frequency problems.
    - Fradow 3y ago
      This was explained on French news: those radiation levels can vary with a software update. It's likely they were compliant before and a software update changed that. Which also means the fix can be a software update. That was (according to the news) the likely way this would be resolved.
- PetitPrince 3y ago
  > Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation It's not halting sunrise but there's a directive[1] that basically says (amongst other) "don't work under the sun without protection". [1] Amended proposal for a Council Directive on the minimum Health and Safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks arising from physical agents — Individual Directive in relation to Article 16 of Directive 89/391/EEC (Text with EEA relevance) (OJ C, C/230, 19.08.1994, p. 3, )
  - RugnirViking 3y ago
    well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.
    - argiopetech 3y ago
      If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Most of the building trades work in the sun by default.
      - skywal_l 3y ago
        > If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Wear long sleeves. Contact me privately for details about where you should transfer my compensation.
      - RugnirViking 3y ago
        it's not (necessarily) about working in the shade all the time, but having some shade available for breaks etc.
    - PetitPrince 3y ago
      It was just me trying to be a wiseass by reaction to OP argument that I felt like "omg next they'll want to regulate the sun!!11" by answered "yes actually yes, there is a regulation about the sun".
- eecc 3y ago
  bad take, different frequencies have different absorptions and biological effects...
  - NavinF 3y ago
    We're talking about ghz frequencies whereas sunlight is terahertz. Latter interacts with human cells and a portion of it causes skin cancer. Former (non-ionizing radiation) causes a rise in temperature or passes right through. People tried so hard to find the smallest negative effects of non-ionizing radiation (without p-hacking or silly surveys) and failed miserably. This is one of those rare cases where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
    - hilbert42 3y ago
      E=hv
- sebstefan 3y ago
  The sun has ionizing radiations, this doesn't Weird that we're regulating for 4W/kg of non-ionizing radiations
  - NavinF 3y ago
    It's the precautionary principle at work. Of course most people never consider the negative effects of such alarmist behavior. There are some pretty good examples on the wiki showing this happening throughout history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle#Critic...
  - stinos 3y ago
    Weird that we're regulating for that Not sure if you really mean that, but how is that so weird? It's a not man-made phenomenon and the regulation would go against freedom in far more serious ways than this regulation does. Likewise there is (in some countries) regulation against solarbeds but nog against the sun. However there is advice everywhere on how to deal with the sun: stay out of it at certain times and places. If you can and want.
    - sebstefan 3y ago
      The "that" was referring to the regulation of 4W/kg for non-ionizing radiations in consumer electronics, not the sun Maybe the phrasing was ambiguous
      - stinos 3y ago
        Oh, right, yes I interpreted it the other way. Sorry but too late to edit or delete my comment..
  - contravariant 3y ago
    Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)
- archerx 3y ago
  A microwave oven has produces non-ionizing radiation, would you put your hand inside one while it's on? It's non-ionizing so it should be 100% safe right?
  - NavinF 3y ago
    At the power levels we're talking about (5W)? Of course I would. The effects are well known: It heats your hands up at 5 joules per second. Incidentally, Tech Ingredients has a great video on using microwave ovens without an enclosure and how to block similar directed energy weapons that use a lot more than 5W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo
    - archerx 3y ago
      Go right a head then but I know prolonged no distance (touching skin) exposure to wifi RF antenna will burn you from the inside out. It was painful but it heals fast.
      - sigilis 3y ago
        What makes you say things like this that are easily verifiably false? I am reaching over and touching my WiFi router’s antennas right now and I’m not being “painfully burned from the inside out.” I’m hoping the answer is a desire to make a joke and not something that indicates a disconnection with reality.
        goda90 3y ago
        I can think of a few reasons why you might get different results. The plastic cover over the metal antenna might be thick enough to keep your skin away(inverse-square law). The version of WiFi has different frequencies(2.4 ghz vs 5 ghz). The Wi-Fi isn't actively transmitting at full power. Or you're simply not holding it there as long. I'm sure we could come up with a repeatable experiment for this that doesn't have any risk of burning.
Forgotthepass8 3y ago
Medical limits are 4W/kg, I'm amazed they're this far off.
- jmaker 3y ago
  The German agency responsible for this states it’s 2 W/kg, see https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/emf/mobile-communication/protection/sar-mobil/sar-mobile-phone_node.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/emf/mobile-communication/protec...
  - Forgotthepass8 3y ago
    I was thinking of MRI where I believe the limit is universally taken to be 4W/kg in the head region (Torso can be higher)
- _fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
  FCC seems to limit at 1.6W/kg. https://www.fcc.gov/general/specific-absorption-rate-sar-cellular-telephones https://www.fcc.gov/general/specific-absorption-rate-sar-cel... How is this measured exactly?
the_gipsy 3y ago
How can I tell what iPhone I have? Mine just says "SE" and ios 16.x.
- greenpresident 3y ago
  Settings > General > About. Tap model number, copy, search it online.
hypefi 3y ago
the tip of the iceberg
Aissen 3y ago
The press release from the agency, in english: https://www.anfr.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/CP_iPhone_12_-_EN.pdf https://www.anfr.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/CP_iPhone_12_-_EN.... Edit: same, in hmtl: https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit...
throwfaraway398 3y ago
I don't get the lag. They first started measure in 2021 for the iphone 12. Did it take 2 years to check the result ? Is it from a new test ? https://data.anfr.fr/anfr/visualisation/table/?id=ad8014ec-f631-450e-a259-799188714ef9&refine.marque=APPLE&sort=-date_controle https://data.anfr.fr/anfr/visualisation/table/?id=ad8014ec-f...
- nraynaud 3y ago
  I guess there are a lot of check and balances before banning a very popular product from a big company.
hoppyhoppy2 3y ago
Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37492752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37492752
jmaker 3y ago
When I was looking for a new smartphone a few years ago I stumbled across the SAR figures and the data set published by the German agency responsible for it.[^1] It was important to recognize that some older Xiaomi phones had higher figures than iPhones listed there. But more recent Xiaomis are even under 0.5, which grants them the “Blue Angel” designation by that agency. You can also download the CSV output. According to this data set, iPhones 12 aren’t much different from the other series. Perhaps different batches in France from different production locations? [^1]: https://www.bfs.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/BfS/EN/SARsuche_Formular.html https://www.bfs.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/BfS/EN/SARsuche_F...
janandonly 3y ago
How nice of them to wait until now, so Apple could simply retract this phone because it's of yesterday, an older model.
chasd00 3y ago
Posting from an iphone12 mini which I think is the perfect form factor. It’s a shame they won’t sell it.
- canes123456 3y ago
  Agreed. I have a 13 mini personal and a normal 12 as my work phone. I hate the regular size so much.

93 points by nico401 3y ago

Apples no longer sells the iPhone 12 (disappeared from their website a few days ago) but what phone technology is the iPhone SE now?

the_gipsy 3y ago
I have an iPhone SE that's (apparently) 2nd generation 2020 - same year as iPhone 12. I'm a bit worried now.
- MYEUHD 3y ago
  The iphone SE (2020) has the body of an iphone 8 with the chip of an iphone 11 It's not related in anyway to the iphone 12, and was in fact released several months before it
  - the_gipsy 3y ago
    Thank you very much for those details!

NavinF 3y ago

> testing found that the model emits more electromagnetic waves susceptible to be absorbed by the body than permitted SMH, they're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation

yanellena 3y ago
The phone doesn't meet the regulations which means it can't be sold. Whether they're good regulations or not is another matter.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  I wonder why it took them 3 years to find out, I thought these radiation tests are pretty basic these days due to cancer scares some decade and half (?) ago. I think gsmarena publishes similar values in their summary pages, but maybe its just copy paste from release material.
  - tuyiown 3y ago
    > I wonder why it took them 3 years to find out From the ANFR publication [1] «141 mobile phones, including Apple’s iPhone 12, have recently been tested to check compliance with limit SAR values». I suspect they simply weren't tested before. sigh. [1] https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit...
    - Algent 3y ago
      Most EU regulations let manufacturers self certify they are observing them. This should come with heavy testing but sadly this is so irregular you can get away with a lot. A few years ago a French tech journal caught several huge chinese PSU maker who claimed they had all certification but during actual testing they would catch fire or short under 50% of rated load.
  - fersarr 3y ago
    Yea this should have been acted on faster. I wish we had more of this data easily available for everything. Ear buds are directly next to our heads.
  - bondant 3y ago
    I guess this is because the agency is underfunded. Their missions are not only to check the radiation on new phones but also to check all 2G/3G/4G/5G in France (about 200k) and investigated in case of radio-frequency problems.
  - Fradow 3y ago
    This was explained on French news: those radiation levels can vary with a software update. It's likely they were compliant before and a software update changed that. Which also means the fix can be a software update. That was (according to the news) the likely way this would be resolved.
PetitPrince 3y ago
> Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation It's not halting sunrise but there's a directive[1] that basically says (amongst other) "don't work under the sun without protection". [1] Amended proposal for a Council Directive on the minimum Health and Safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks arising from physical agents — Individual Directive in relation to Article 16 of Directive 89/391/EEC (Text with EEA relevance) (OJ C, C/230, 19.08.1994, p. 3, )
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.
  - argiopetech 3y ago
    If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Most of the building trades work in the sun by default.
    - skywal_l 3y ago
      > If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Wear long sleeves. Contact me privately for details about where you should transfer my compensation.
    - RugnirViking 3y ago
      it's not (necessarily) about working in the shade all the time, but having some shade available for breaks etc.
  - PetitPrince 3y ago
    It was just me trying to be a wiseass by reaction to OP argument that I felt like "omg next they'll want to regulate the sun!!11" by answered "yes actually yes, there is a regulation about the sun".
eecc 3y ago
bad take, different frequencies have different absorptions and biological effects...
- NavinF 3y ago
  We're talking about ghz frequencies whereas sunlight is terahertz. Latter interacts with human cells and a portion of it causes skin cancer. Former (non-ionizing radiation) causes a rise in temperature or passes right through. People tried so hard to find the smallest negative effects of non-ionizing radiation (without p-hacking or silly surveys) and failed miserably. This is one of those rare cases where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    E=hv
sebstefan 3y ago
The sun has ionizing radiations, this doesn't Weird that we're regulating for 4W/kg of non-ionizing radiations
- NavinF 3y ago
  It's the precautionary principle at work. Of course most people never consider the negative effects of such alarmist behavior. There are some pretty good examples on the wiki showing this happening throughout history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle#Criticisms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle#Critic...
- stinos 3y ago
  Weird that we're regulating for that Not sure if you really mean that, but how is that so weird? It's a not man-made phenomenon and the regulation would go against freedom in far more serious ways than this regulation does. Likewise there is (in some countries) regulation against solarbeds but nog against the sun. However there is advice everywhere on how to deal with the sun: stay out of it at certain times and places. If you can and want.
  - sebstefan 3y ago
    The "that" was referring to the regulation of 4W/kg for non-ionizing radiations in consumer electronics, not the sun Maybe the phrasing was ambiguous
    - stinos 3y ago
      Oh, right, yes I interpreted it the other way. Sorry but too late to edit or delete my comment..
- contravariant 3y ago
  Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)
archerx 3y ago
A microwave oven has produces non-ionizing radiation, would you put your hand inside one while it's on? It's non-ionizing so it should be 100% safe right?
- NavinF 3y ago
  At the power levels we're talking about (5W)? Of course I would. The effects are well known: It heats your hands up at 5 joules per second. Incidentally, Tech Ingredients has a great video on using microwave ovens without an enclosure and how to block similar directed energy weapons that use a lot more than 5W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo
  - archerx 3y ago
    Go right a head then but I know prolonged no distance (touching skin) exposure to wifi RF antenna will burn you from the inside out. It was painful but it heals fast.
    - sigilis 3y ago
      What makes you say things like this that are easily verifiably false? I am reaching over and touching my WiFi router’s antennas right now and I’m not being “painfully burned from the inside out.” I’m hoping the answer is a desire to make a joke and not something that indicates a disconnection with reality.
      - goda90 3y ago
        I can think of a few reasons why you might get different results. The plastic cover over the metal antenna might be thick enough to keep your skin away(inverse-square law). The version of WiFi has different frequencies(2.4 ghz vs 5 ghz). The Wi-Fi isn't actively transmitting at full power. Or you're simply not holding it there as long. I'm sure we could come up with a repeatable experiment for this that doesn't have any risk of burning.

Forgotthepass8 3y ago

Medical limits are 4W/kg, I'm amazed they're this far off.

jmaker 3y ago
The German agency responsible for this states it’s 2 W/kg, see https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/emf/mobile-communication/protection/sar-mobil/sar-mobile-phone_node.html https://www.bfs.de/EN/topics/emf/mobile-communication/protec...
- Forgotthepass8 3y ago
  I was thinking of MRI where I believe the limit is universally taken to be 4W/kg in the head region (Torso can be higher)
_fizz_buzz_ 3y ago
FCC seems to limit at 1.6W/kg. https://www.fcc.gov/general/specific-absorption-rate-sar-cellular-telephones https://www.fcc.gov/general/specific-absorption-rate-sar-cel... How is this measured exactly?

the_gipsy 3y ago

How can I tell what iPhone I have? Mine just says "SE" and ios 16.x.

greenpresident 3y ago
Settings > General > About. Tap model number, copy, search it online.

hypefi 3y ago

the tip of the iceberg

Aissen 3y ago

The press release from the agency, in english: https://www.anfr.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/CP_iPhone_12_-_EN.pdf https://www.anfr.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/CP_iPhone_12_-_EN.... Edit: same, in hmtl: https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-withdrawal-from-the-market-of-the-iphone-12-for-non-compliance-with-eu-regulation https://www.anfr.fr/liste-actualites/actualite/temporary-wit...

throwfaraway398 3y ago

I don't get the lag. They first started measure in 2021 for the iphone 12. Did it take 2 years to check the result ? Is it from a new test ? https://data.anfr.fr/anfr/visualisation/table/?id=ad8014ec-f631-450e-a259-799188714ef9&refine.marque=APPLE&sort=-date_controle https://data.anfr.fr/anfr/visualisation/table/?id=ad8014ec-f...

nraynaud 3y ago
I guess there are a lot of check and balances before banning a very popular product from a big company.

hoppyhoppy2 3y ago

Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37492752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37492752

jmaker 3y ago

When I was looking for a new smartphone a few years ago I stumbled across the SAR figures and the data set published by the German agency responsible for it.[^1] It was important to recognize that some older Xiaomi phones had higher figures than iPhones listed there. But more recent Xiaomis are even under 0.5, which grants them the “Blue Angel” designation by that agency. You can also download the CSV output. According to this data set, iPhones 12 aren’t much different from the other series. Perhaps different batches in France from different production locations? [^1]: https://www.bfs.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/BfS/EN/SARsuche_Formular.html https://www.bfs.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/BfS/EN/SARsuche_F...

janandonly 3y ago

How nice of them to wait until now, so Apple could simply retract this phone because it's of yesterday, an older model.

chasd00 3y ago

Posting from an iphone12 mini which I think is the perfect form factor. It’s a shame they won’t sell it.

canes123456 3y ago
Agreed. I have a 13 mini personal and a normal 12 as my work phone. I hate the regular size so much.