6 ms·

The only planet where 100% of Linux systems have working audio is Mars

71 points by rcarmo 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
drt5b7j 3y ago
So? Windows not even that.
- Ygg2 3y ago
  Huh? I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working, barring some hardware/firmware issue. In Linux land. I am constantly fighting OS to do the most trivial things.
  - donkeybeer 3y ago
    I've yet to encounter a case where Linux audio is not working. Thats because just like windows, I buy hardware where the manufacturer helps write Linux drivers. I don't financially support hardware makers who don't care about me and buy from those who do, simple as. Also hardware companies should be happy if people are trying to reverse engineer their devices to get a working driver: It menas people want to use it. Instead of trying to further lock down or obfuscate their devices they should be happy and help these folks. They are doing free work for your company.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > Instead of trying to further lock down or obfuscate their devices they should be happy and help these folks. They are doing free work for your company. They are, but legally the situation is way less clear for companies: - for anything involving RF communication, allowing unauthorized/unverified selection of stuff like wifi country codes can lead to illegal RF emissions - low level assistance may touch stuff that's nominally under NDAs and expose the company to legal risk - anything involving "jailbreaking" may lead to issues with DRM As a result, the official policy often is "no one touches code or helps people from outside, corporate legal doesn't want to get Oracle'd".
      - donkeybeer 3y ago
        As I said all that does is further push me to only buy from companies that support my os. I have mixed feelings about people reverse engineering hostile hardware. It helps those who mistakenly bought that hardware esp as an onramp for Windows users who just bought whatever laptop. And it's always useful to keep reverse engineering skills shrap. But on the other hand you are just helping someone who hates you, the best way to play the game is to not play it.
  - rf15 3y ago
    Personal anecdote: Windows Update has a habit of resetting microphone frequency settings, causing problems if Windows and connected professional hardware suddenly speak "different languages". This is strictly an OS-level issue, since no driver has been changed and the hw config and behaviour has not been changed either.
    - eliasmacpherson 3y ago
      It's not just you, you will find most if not all vendors of external audio devices for Windows will have a tech support page saying you have to hit 'reset defaults' after Windows Update if it chooses to change Sample Rate, default device etc. Windows often changes the settings for internal Realtek devices, too. Windows Update can set unusable settings irrespective of whether vendor drivers are used or class compliant Microsoft supplied ones. That is not to say that Linux is any better.
  - _ugfj 3y ago
    There's a small but loud crowd which insists on using Linux as their daily driver on modern laptops despite this makes very little sense. https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ is just as true today as it was near fifteen years ago, it's just today it would be streaming from various services (especially in high resolution). I have also struggled with Bluetooth, multifunctional devices and weird enterprise networks. For people who do not enjoy fighting their computers, Windows + WSL is just a smoother experience. Leave the Linux kernel for headless devices: routers, servers etc. It excels there.
    - donkeybeer 3y ago
      Bluetooth, audio, etc works fine in the machines I use, because the manufacturer helps the development of Linux drivers. The real question is why are you buying hardware from companies that dislike you and your os?
    - rebolek 3y ago
      Thank you for your opinion, Microsoft sales person.
      - chx 3y ago
        I have been using Linux since 1993 but sure.
    - matkoniecz 3y ago
      > despite this makes very little sense Avoiding Bing reward lottery spam in notifications from OS alone is worth it for me. > https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ This is quite ironic given that I am more likely to use 2048 CPU machine than playing full screen Flash videos.
      - chx 3y ago
        you have a 2048 core laptop?
        3y ago
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working, barring some hardware/firmware issue Hit that with an All-in-one-PC thing of a friend two years ago, had to reinstall Windows after some issue with malware. Sound didn't work because the driver from Windows Update was generic, you'd need the years-old version from the manufacturer installed first (as it contained the pin mapping somewhere in the bloatware that came with the driver). Fun fact, Ubuntu also didn't make sounds, I thought the speakers were busted and was already thinking about bringing a 'scope with me next time. Why pin mapping of audio chips can't be stored in an SPI chip or ACPI table is beyond me.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - pfyra 3y ago
    Oh, I have so much issues with audio in Teams on windows. Spotify works fine and I can hear the sound when connecting a call or meeting but then the audio is out. Or the mic. You never really know which one will cause problems. Replaced the BT speaker that caused problems for years but usb mic+audio seem just vaguely better.
  - jraph 3y ago
    > I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working Let alone on Mars.
  - moqmar 3y ago
    My Dell laptop with Windows didn't recognize any headphones or headsets, until I tried 3 different drivers from 3 different vendor websites. Applications mess with volume settings constantly unless you know which checkbox to uncheck, at work we have a speakerphone where with some laptops you can't understand anything at all, and so on. Windows is not better here in any way, in my experience during normal day-to-day use it is actually worse than Linux audio.
  - orbital-decay 3y ago
    Any setup with a bit more complexity than "playing audio from a single app without regards to latency" can be terribly janky and unpredictable in Windows, especially if it's multithreaded or running along some other CPU/IO-heavy app. Audio engineers and streamers know well what I'm talking about.
littlestymaar 3y ago
Are audio issues on Linux still a thing? I've been using Linux as desktop OS for 14 years this month, and I've never had issues with audio on none of the 6 computers I installed Linux on. Getting a new printer working (or a fresh install working with an existing printer that used to work flawlessly), has been a recurrent source of frustration, and I've experienced occasional issues with GPU drivers, but audio has never been an issue, so I wonder: are “sound issues on Linux” a meme that survived from the early days of Pulse Audio, or is that still a thing in 2023?
- jandrese 3y ago
  I’ve had pretty good luck myself, but have on occasion gotten wrapped around the axle with some layer in the middle suddenly having whacked out mixer settings or something. I’ve always been able to Google a solution so far.
- scrollaway 3y ago
  It is a thing again, actually. Since pipewire, on wayland/kde, my audio sink regularly dies and has to be turned off and back on again to work. I’ve never experienced audio issues before that since … 2012 ish.
  - speed_spread 3y ago
    Strange. What distro are you using? I've used that same stack for a year+ and things have been just peachy. I'm playing Steam games and doing light studio work (Ardour, etc). I'm actually surprised by how Pipewire just works. (Fedora Kinoite)
    - scrollaway 3y ago
      It's on Arch Linux. I haven't really figured out what's going on yet, the sound dies erratically but usually when eg. a Chrome audio tab is closed or something. Younger me would debug it more. Older me just made a script to turn the sink off and on quickly until someone else fixes it ...
- 3y ago
StevenWaterman 3y ago
I mean technically all the linux systems on Jupiter have working audio
- speed_spread 3y ago
  I am confused by the very notion of being "on" Jupiter.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Every logical statement beginning with `∀ e ⊂ ∅` is true.
    - thih9 3y ago
      In which case every logical statement belonging to the set of “statements that begin with `∀ e ⊂ ∅` and are false” is true as well.
      - jraph 3y ago
        Yes. Try me and find one single counter example to contradict me :-) (edit: You could try something like ∀ e ⊂ ∅ ∨ ⊤ - adding "or true" at the end - but that's not really what littlestymaar meant)
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox
        jraph 3y ago
        Not sure it's related, this set of statements is not about statements containing themselves or the set itself. You need a set of sets for the Russell paradox to have chances to kick in.
    - jraph 3y ago
iamnotsure 3y ago
Virus free
jraph 3y ago
This quote is old. Why would he repost this now? Did he try Linux again? Or it's just for the pleasure of trolling? (which is fine, not saying, just wondering if there's a context to this "reminder") The quote is also wrong, any planet without a Linux system satisfies the predicate "100% of Linux systems have working audio", and they are many of them. edit: I also doubt Ingenuity can play audio.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  Not exactly 0/0 is 0%.
  - jraph 3y ago
    Well, 100% of 0 is 0 :-) edit: and 0/0 is not defined
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      This is one of those things where math doesn’t apply to reality (applied maths vs. theoretical maths). If you have zero of something, you just have zero. You can’t have infinite something just because you have zero of them.
      - jraph 3y ago
        It's not a case of math not applying to reality. It's a case of not using the right tool/model. There's no meaningful (both theoretically and practically) answer to the question "What proportion '0 out of 0' represents?". You can't answer 0%, you can't answer 100%, nothing in between neither. There can be a proportion only if there are a non-zero amount of things you want to count. "0/0" is not the right model. It never is. "100% of 0", however, means (100/100) × 0, which is well defined and equals 0. The quote says "100% of [something evaluating to 0 in our case]". Note that I didn't mention infinity. I mentioned 0/0 being undefined. There's nothing about 0/0 that's infinity. The limit of c/x when x goes to 0 is equal to infinity, c being a constant different from 0 (+infinity if x is positive, -infinity if x is negative). lim 0/x is 0 when x -> 0 because 0 over anything non-zero, however small, is 0. The limit is yet another tool that's not really related to what we are discussing unless I'm missing something.
thih9 3y ago
Source? Note that Perseverance does not run on Linux, the drone (Ingenuity) does. I know Perseverance has sent audio recordings. But is Ingenuity doing some audio processing? > NASA settled on the Linux OS for the rover’s helicopter-like drone, Ingenuity [1] > Ingenuity doesn't carry science instruments and is a separate experiment from the Mars 2020 Perseverance rover. [2] [1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/linux-is-now-on-mars-thanks-to-nasas-perseverance-rover https://www.pcmag.com/news/linux-is-now-on-mars-thanks-to-na... [2] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/6-things-to-know-about-nasas-ingenuity-mars-helicopter https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/6-things-to-know-about-nasa...
- forgotpwd16 3y ago
  >Note that Perseverance does not run on Linux For anyone wondering, Perseverance runs VxWorks, as do all other previous (US) rovers (Curiosity, Opportunity, Spirit, Sojourner).
- orbital-decay 3y ago
  The drone doesn't run on Linux either. It has several CPUs (like most spacecraft), most of them run hard realtime systems, and only the COTS board used for the additional hazard avoidance (IIRC) runs Linux; it's not required for the helicopter to function. The whole point was to test non-radhard electronics on Mars without endangering the rover.
_nalply 3y ago
I am Deaf. I never bothered to setup audio (Arch Linux on Framework). Edit: I would need someone to help me verify that sound works. Of course I could touch the chassis near the loudspeaker and play a 200 Hz sine wave on https://onlinetonegenerator.com/ https://onlinetonegenerator.com/ but why? I don't hear so why? My children leave my laptop alone because they know that there's no sound.
- anon____ 3y ago
  You could use a microphone to record the output and plot it using Audacity. What if unknowingly you do have working audio, cranked up to 11, while browsing PornHub?
  - _nalply 3y ago
    Did you read my comment at all before answering? Note: You answered AFTER my edit.
    - anon____ 3y ago
      Yes, I did read your comment before answering. Note: I commented on points you brought up IN your edit. Let me break it down for you: >> I would need someone to help me verify that sound works. > You could use a microphone to record the output and plot it using Audacity. >> but why? I don't hear so why? > What if unknowingly you do have working audio, cranked up to 11, while browsing PornHub?
archo 3y ago
https://archive.is/muiUi https://archive.is/muiUi

71 points by rcarmo 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

drt5b7j 3y ago

So? Windows not even that.

Ygg2 3y ago
Huh? I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working, barring some hardware/firmware issue. In Linux land. I am constantly fighting OS to do the most trivial things.
- donkeybeer 3y ago
  I've yet to encounter a case where Linux audio is not working. Thats because just like windows, I buy hardware where the manufacturer helps write Linux drivers. I don't financially support hardware makers who don't care about me and buy from those who do, simple as. Also hardware companies should be happy if people are trying to reverse engineer their devices to get a working driver: It menas people want to use it. Instead of trying to further lock down or obfuscate their devices they should be happy and help these folks. They are doing free work for your company.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > Instead of trying to further lock down or obfuscate their devices they should be happy and help these folks. They are doing free work for your company. They are, but legally the situation is way less clear for companies: - for anything involving RF communication, allowing unauthorized/unverified selection of stuff like wifi country codes can lead to illegal RF emissions - low level assistance may touch stuff that's nominally under NDAs and expose the company to legal risk - anything involving "jailbreaking" may lead to issues with DRM As a result, the official policy often is "no one touches code or helps people from outside, corporate legal doesn't want to get Oracle'd".
    - donkeybeer 3y ago
      As I said all that does is further push me to only buy from companies that support my os. I have mixed feelings about people reverse engineering hostile hardware. It helps those who mistakenly bought that hardware esp as an onramp for Windows users who just bought whatever laptop. And it's always useful to keep reverse engineering skills shrap. But on the other hand you are just helping someone who hates you, the best way to play the game is to not play it.
- rf15 3y ago
  Personal anecdote: Windows Update has a habit of resetting microphone frequency settings, causing problems if Windows and connected professional hardware suddenly speak "different languages". This is strictly an OS-level issue, since no driver has been changed and the hw config and behaviour has not been changed either.
  - eliasmacpherson 3y ago
    It's not just you, you will find most if not all vendors of external audio devices for Windows will have a tech support page saying you have to hit 'reset defaults' after Windows Update if it chooses to change Sample Rate, default device etc. Windows often changes the settings for internal Realtek devices, too. Windows Update can set unusable settings irrespective of whether vendor drivers are used or class compliant Microsoft supplied ones. That is not to say that Linux is any better.
- _ugfj 3y ago
  There's a small but loud crowd which insists on using Linux as their daily driver on modern laptops despite this makes very little sense. https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ is just as true today as it was near fifteen years ago, it's just today it would be streaming from various services (especially in high resolution). I have also struggled with Bluetooth, multifunctional devices and weird enterprise networks. For people who do not enjoy fighting their computers, Windows + WSL is just a smoother experience. Leave the Linux kernel for headless devices: routers, servers etc. It excels there.
  - donkeybeer 3y ago
    Bluetooth, audio, etc works fine in the machines I use, because the manufacturer helps the development of Linux drivers. The real question is why are you buying hardware from companies that dislike you and your os?
  - rebolek 3y ago
    Thank you for your opinion, Microsoft sales person.
    - chx 3y ago
      I have been using Linux since 1993 but sure.
  - matkoniecz 3y ago
    > despite this makes very little sense Avoiding Bing reward lottery spam in notifications from OS alone is worth it for me. > https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ This is quite ironic given that I am more likely to use 2048 CPU machine than playing full screen Flash videos.
    - chx 3y ago
      you have a 2048 core laptop?
      - 3y ago
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working, barring some hardware/firmware issue Hit that with an All-in-one-PC thing of a friend two years ago, had to reinstall Windows after some issue with malware. Sound didn't work because the driver from Windows Update was generic, you'd need the years-old version from the manufacturer installed first (as it contained the pin mapping somewhere in the bloatware that came with the driver). Fun fact, Ubuntu also didn't make sounds, I thought the speakers were busted and was already thinking about bringing a 'scope with me next time. Why pin mapping of audio chips can't be stored in an SPI chip or ACPI table is beyond me.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- pfyra 3y ago
  Oh, I have so much issues with audio in Teams on windows. Spotify works fine and I can hear the sound when connecting a call or meeting but then the audio is out. Or the mic. You never really know which one will cause problems. Replaced the BT speaker that caused problems for years but usb mic+audio seem just vaguely better.
- jraph 3y ago
  > I've yet to meet someone that encountered Window audio not working Let alone on Mars.
- moqmar 3y ago
  My Dell laptop with Windows didn't recognize any headphones or headsets, until I tried 3 different drivers from 3 different vendor websites. Applications mess with volume settings constantly unless you know which checkbox to uncheck, at work we have a speakerphone where with some laptops you can't understand anything at all, and so on. Windows is not better here in any way, in my experience during normal day-to-day use it is actually worse than Linux audio.
- orbital-decay 3y ago
  Any setup with a bit more complexity than "playing audio from a single app without regards to latency" can be terribly janky and unpredictable in Windows, especially if it's multithreaded or running along some other CPU/IO-heavy app. Audio engineers and streamers know well what I'm talking about.

littlestymaar 3y ago

Are audio issues on Linux still a thing? I've been using Linux as desktop OS for 14 years this month, and I've never had issues with audio on none of the 6 computers I installed Linux on. Getting a new printer working (or a fresh install working with an existing printer that used to work flawlessly), has been a recurrent source of frustration, and I've experienced occasional issues with GPU drivers, but audio has never been an issue, so I wonder: are “sound issues on Linux” a meme that survived from the early days of Pulse Audio, or is that still a thing in 2023?

jandrese 3y ago
I’ve had pretty good luck myself, but have on occasion gotten wrapped around the axle with some layer in the middle suddenly having whacked out mixer settings or something. I’ve always been able to Google a solution so far.
scrollaway 3y ago
It is a thing again, actually. Since pipewire, on wayland/kde, my audio sink regularly dies and has to be turned off and back on again to work. I’ve never experienced audio issues before that since … 2012 ish.
- speed_spread 3y ago
  Strange. What distro are you using? I've used that same stack for a year+ and things have been just peachy. I'm playing Steam games and doing light studio work (Ardour, etc). I'm actually surprised by how Pipewire just works. (Fedora Kinoite)
  - scrollaway 3y ago
    It's on Arch Linux. I haven't really figured out what's going on yet, the sound dies erratically but usually when eg. a Chrome audio tab is closed or something. Younger me would debug it more. Older me just made a script to turn the sink off and on quickly until someone else fixes it ...
3y ago

StevenWaterman 3y ago

I mean technically all the linux systems on Jupiter have working audio

speed_spread 3y ago
I am confused by the very notion of being "on" Jupiter.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Every logical statement beginning with `∀ e ⊂ ∅` is true.
  - thih9 3y ago
    In which case every logical statement belonging to the set of “statements that begin with `∀ e ⊂ ∅` and are false” is true as well.
    - jraph 3y ago
      Yes. Try me and find one single counter example to contradict me :-) (edit: You could try something like ∀ e ⊂ ∅ ∨ ⊤ - adding "or true" at the end - but that's not really what littlestymaar meant)
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox
      - jraph 3y ago
        Not sure it's related, this set of statements is not about statements containing themselves or the set itself. You need a set of sets for the Russell paradox to have chances to kick in.
  - jraph 3y ago

iamnotsure 3y ago

Virus free

jraph 3y ago

This quote is old. Why would he repost this now? Did he try Linux again? Or it's just for the pleasure of trolling? (which is fine, not saying, just wondering if there's a context to this "reminder") The quote is also wrong, any planet without a Linux system satisfies the predicate "100% of Linux systems have working audio", and they are many of them. edit: I also doubt Ingenuity can play audio.

withinboredom 3y ago
Not exactly 0/0 is 0%.
- jraph 3y ago
  Well, 100% of 0 is 0 :-) edit: and 0/0 is not defined
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    This is one of those things where math doesn’t apply to reality (applied maths vs. theoretical maths). If you have zero of something, you just have zero. You can’t have infinite something just because you have zero of them.
    - jraph 3y ago
      It's not a case of math not applying to reality. It's a case of not using the right tool/model. There's no meaningful (both theoretically and practically) answer to the question "What proportion '0 out of 0' represents?". You can't answer 0%, you can't answer 100%, nothing in between neither. There can be a proportion only if there are a non-zero amount of things you want to count. "0/0" is not the right model. It never is. "100% of 0", however, means (100/100) × 0, which is well defined and equals 0. The quote says "100% of [something evaluating to 0 in our case]". Note that I didn't mention infinity. I mentioned 0/0 being undefined. There's nothing about 0/0 that's infinity. The limit of c/x when x goes to 0 is equal to infinity, c being a constant different from 0 (+infinity if x is positive, -infinity if x is negative). lim 0/x is 0 when x -> 0 because 0 over anything non-zero, however small, is 0. The limit is yet another tool that's not really related to what we are discussing unless I'm missing something.

thih9 3y ago

Source? Note that Perseverance does not run on Linux, the drone (Ingenuity) does. I know Perseverance has sent audio recordings. But is Ingenuity doing some audio processing? > NASA settled on the Linux OS for the rover’s helicopter-like drone, Ingenuity [1] > Ingenuity doesn't carry science instruments and is a separate experiment from the Mars 2020 Perseverance rover. [2] [1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/linux-is-now-on-mars-thanks-to-nasas-perseverance-rover https://www.pcmag.com/news/linux-is-now-on-mars-thanks-to-na... [2] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/6-things-to-know-about-nasas-ingenuity-mars-helicopter https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/6-things-to-know-about-nasa...

forgotpwd16 3y ago
>Note that Perseverance does not run on Linux For anyone wondering, Perseverance runs VxWorks, as do all other previous (US) rovers (Curiosity, Opportunity, Spirit, Sojourner).
orbital-decay 3y ago
The drone doesn't run on Linux either. It has several CPUs (like most spacecraft), most of them run hard realtime systems, and only the COTS board used for the additional hazard avoidance (IIRC) runs Linux; it's not required for the helicopter to function. The whole point was to test non-radhard electronics on Mars without endangering the rover.

_nalply 3y ago

I am Deaf. I never bothered to setup audio (Arch Linux on Framework). Edit: I would need someone to help me verify that sound works. Of course I could touch the chassis near the loudspeaker and play a 200 Hz sine wave on https://onlinetonegenerator.com/ https://onlinetonegenerator.com/ but why? I don't hear so why? My children leave my laptop alone because they know that there's no sound.

anon____ 3y ago
You could use a microphone to record the output and plot it using Audacity. What if unknowingly you do have working audio, cranked up to 11, while browsing PornHub?
- _nalply 3y ago
  Did you read my comment at all before answering? Note: You answered AFTER my edit.
  - anon____ 3y ago
    Yes, I did read your comment before answering. Note: I commented on points you brought up IN your edit. Let me break it down for you: >> I would need someone to help me verify that sound works. > You could use a microphone to record the output and plot it using Audacity. >> but why? I don't hear so why? > What if unknowingly you do have working audio, cranked up to 11, while browsing PornHub?

archo 3y ago

https://archive.is/muiUi https://archive.is/muiUi