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In Germany, 27 are in 'preventive detention' b/c they might do climate protests
- CalRobert 3y agoAnything to keep the auto industry from admitting how badly they screwed up by sticking with ICE cars. I'm sure protesting nuclear so they can keep ripping up towns for coal is fine, though.
- tfourb 3y agoI’m with you on the first paragraph, but in the second paragraph you may not be aware that Germany has a clear and legally binding roadmap to end coal mining. Could it be quicker? Sure. Would it have helped if nuclear power stations would have remained on the grid in Germany? marginally at best.
- wbl 3y agoIt would have completely replaced coal this year.
- 0x006A 3y agoHow? Coal accounted for 33.3% of electricity production in 2022. Nuclear power accounted for 13.3% of German electricity supply in 2021.
- marvin 3y agoI haven't done the numbers, but there's also Russia's invasion of Ukraine to consider, and the shift from natural gas to coal triggered by that. Germany's shutdown of their nuclear generating capacity, and their dependence on Russian natural gas was a major factor in the invasion, and hence Germany's necessity to shift back to coal.
- JAlexoid 3y agoNuclear was being phased out for a little longer than 2 years now. It was a stupid move, considering that Germany also pushed to classify gas power as "clean" in the EU.
- Tade0 3y agoHard coal maybe, but not lignite: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/Tables/gross-electricity-production.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...
- jgilias 3y agoSo the plan is to ship coal from Poland or somewhere farther away to keep burning it in Germany’s coal-powered power plants?
- myrmidon 3y agoGermany is mining ~10% (10 megaton/years) more coal than Poland, but is much less reliant on it for electricity and is significantly ahead at switching to renewables.
- skrause 3y agoCurrent law is that Germany has to stop burning (not just mining) coal by 2038. The current government wants to push this date up to 2030 and is evaluating if and how that's even possible (https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/vorgezogener-kohleausstieg-100.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/vorgezogener-k...).
- nradov 3y agoThe notion of having a "clear and legally binding roadmap to end coal mining" in 2038 is a total joke. The politicians got to issue some nice press releases but most of the hard choices were foisted onto their successors. I guarantee that the deadline will be extended and exceptions will be made. Germans will still be mining and burning coal in 2039.
- tfourb 3y agoThis comment betrays complete ignorance over the legal framework that these agreements are situated in, Germany’s political economy, the future and present cost structure of coal mining and comparable precedents in Germany’s recent history (including the abolishment of both hard coal and nuclear power).
- linksnapzz 3y agoScrewed up by...making the cars customers wanted. That'll show 'em!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ZoomerCretin 3y agoThe climate of the entire world is changing for the worse. ICE cars do not consider negative externalities. Not to mention that EVs are enormously popular! They are only being produced now because Tesla is making them. EVs are far more reliable and cheaper to maintain than ICE cars, which is bad if you're a car manufacturer because people buy EVs less frequently than unreliable ICE cars. "ICE only exists because customers only want them" has no basis in fact.
- barrysteve 3y agoICE cars can be made reliable and cheap to maintain. Toyota, old GM products, ect. They don't make them reliable.. I wonder why?.
- b112 3y agoICE cars are incredibly reliable. I buy a new car, drive it a decade, and outside of things like brakes, tires, which wear by their nature, often have no repairs to deal with. Typically I do 25000km per year.
- ZoomerCretin 3y agoYou're definitely an outlier, or you only buy reliable cars.
- b112 3y agoTrick #1: car models are refreshed. Never buy the first 2 or 3 years after this happens. Trick #2: many car platforms share engines. Try to buy a car with an engine that has been used for a few years. These two things alone, will ensure you aren't a beta tester NOTE: car manufacturers pay through the nose for warranty repair work. They quickly fix all things which can impact that bottom line, which is why later years in a car refresh are much more stable. Which is why: Trick #3: never buy any car without a bumper to bumper warranty, and never if 2 years. Be wary of anything less than 4. Why? Someone with a 4 year warranty, will fix problems with a model generation of a car, to save issues even 4 years out. And this means that stability is ensured for years beyond that, typically.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tyingq 3y agoPhilip K. Dick guesses right again. Pre-crime.
- the_only_law 3y agoAnd look just how many people support it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bsimpson 3y agoSeems appropriate on 9/11 to read about anti-terrorism laws being used to impinge on regular people's civil liberties.
- dadjoker 3y ago[flagged]
- banannaise 3y agoThat is not in any way a legal right.
- vetinari 3y agoStill not a great way to win friends and influence people, if you piss them off.
- bowsamic 3y ago> Still not a great way to win friends and influence people They are not trying to do that
- closewith 3y agoYou seem to be implying that freedom of movement isn't a right?
- banannaise 3y agoNo, it isn't. You have freedom from restraint, but you never have the right to a specific route at a specific time (excepting corner cases where there is only one possible route out of a place, and blocking it would be de facto imprisonment).
- closewith 3y agoWhat a bizarre thought. Fortunately nearly everybody and every country disagrees with you. Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: * Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. * Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
- banannaise 3y agoAsking because my context as an American may not apply: If an American were jailed for the maximum 60 days, then they would almost certainly be fired from their job for non-attendance and become 30+ days late on all of their bills since you cannot pay bills from jail. This includes car payments and/or rent, which can result in repossession/eviction proceedings being filed. Is the situation for short-term prisoners similar in Germany?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- morkalork 3y agoNo idea, just wanted to chime in with "you may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride!"
- nvahalik 3y ago> maximum 60 days In the US, political prisoners have been jailed for years without trial. 60 days would be a major respite.
- banannaise 3y agoI'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). I am aware that the US has some pretty serious problems that are at least somewhat related, but I'm trying not to digress into that.
- skrause 3y ago> I'm referring to the maximum length of detention under the German law being used (if I'm reading things right). It's not a German law but a state law. Some states only allow 4 days, Berlin only 2 days: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterbindungsgewahrsam Of course it's Baravia which allows the (by far) longest detention with two months.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
- EatingWithForks 3y agoIn America, several protestors and advocates have been mysteriously disappeared by the justice system as well. Of course, we know what happened with the Black Panther Party but similar tactics are still happening in current day.
- tough 3y agoThis is a pretty big accusation without any kind of sources or links or whatsoever, you could at least name them or their cases so one can research on their own...
- s5300 3y ago[dead]
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- matthewdgreen 3y agoMore topically, police in Georgia are filing RICO charges against 61 activists who are protesting a police training center down there. They've also filed money laundering charges against a group who tried to organize a bail fund: https://apnews.com/article/atlanta-cop-city-protests-rico-charges-3177a63ac1bd31a1594bed6584e9f330 https://apnews.com/article/atlanta-cop-city-protests-rico-ch...
- croc_socks 3y agoProtest or vandalism? I don't think destroying property especially art, businesses is a good way to get people on your side.
- raverbashing 3y agoIf anyone LSO/LG have earned the "reputation" for destructive or disrupting stunts I actually do think they're indirectly being financed by the oil industry (LSO head figures go around in private jets) to antagonize and create a bad (but not unrealistic) caricature of the climate protestors. And of course there's plenty of people willing to play the roles Greta looks like the serious grownup compared to LSO
- wiz21c 3y agoWhat is LSO/LG ?
- raverbashing 3y agoLet's Stop Oil Letzte Generation
- sinkwool 3y agoNever attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
- burkaman 3y agoNeither, "preventative detention" means this is not a response to any specific action.
- almostnormal 3y agoI want to believe that there was a "specific action". An explicit announcement to block a road / airport / whatever. Unfortunately, it is cheaper for the gonvernment to detain people than to send police to prevent it shortly before it is going to happen. Also, the ruling party in Bavaria is mainly controlled by the opinions people exchange in pubs over a couple of beers (one beer being a quarter gallon), and there common sense isn't considered that much.
- throw74848 3y ago[flagged]
- saltymug76 3y ago[flagged]
- throw74848 3y ago[flagged]
- waihtis 3y agoGood. These idiots are a net harm to the climate change cause. The only thing they have managed is accelerated resentment towards pro climate activities. It is fully possible I have a naive interpretation of their goals and perhaps they're just looking for an excuse to be the biggest twats possible.
- sho_hn 3y ago> The only thing they have managed is accelerated resentment towards pro climate activities. I'm not so sure about that. I see a fair number of people who got woken up to how serious things are by these protests as well. Before they saw this kind of thing on the news, it didn't strike them as particularly real. It's a "sign of the times" for them.
- lowkey_ 3y agoHow have they expressed that? How has it changed their minds? I'd be genuinely amazed at the personality of a person who goes "Wow! They must be disrupting my day for a very important reason. Let me look up and better research their cause," versus "Oh f**, I'm going to be late to my appointment. What's going on? Oh, these idiots are blocking the street." If you're going to interrupt my life based on some future, uncertain scientific reasoning, especially the lives of everyday working-class people who can't afford to spend their day blocking streets instead of working, it would turn me off to your cause, and that's the only sentiment I've heard from my friends. Maybe we're wrong for that, but I'm curious how others would respond.
- sho_hn 3y agoI think there's plenty of people who are surprised that some people take the climate situation as seriously enough that they would organize and do this, especially when others chime in with "you should expect more of this, the coming decades will see a lot of things destabilize". I've not encountered much anti-activism sentiment, at most a "they have a point, but it's the wrong way to do it". I've not seen anyone leave their gasoline engine on idle on their behalf to spite them.
- andrewstuart 3y agoIt’s the beginning of the climate revolution. It’s going to be real ugly I can tell you that for sure. The children have no future. The old have accumulated ownership of pretty much everything. A generation with nothing to lose. EDIT no climate future
- googlryas 3y agoThe interesting thing about old people is they tend to die, and bequeath their properties to their children.
- michaelteter 3y agoBut their children tend to think and act as the parents did, especially when they are insulated from reality by wealth.
- mistermann 3y agoTrue, but what of those who do not have wealthy parents?
- aunty_helen 3y agoNow you’re catching on
- barrysteve 3y agoWe replaced expansionist policy with children inheriting wealth. It's not a soothing platitude for the next generation, that the most they can work towards is inheriting their father's achievements. Let's be honest, if we've come this far down the 'argument heirarchy' for growth and expansion, we know things are bad.
- nickserv 3y agoThere's a good chance Brexit would not have happened if the vote was done today, simply because of old people dying off (most over 65 voted for, most under 35 voted against). It does look like a lot of climate legislation is facing similar situations, where the boomer generation is voting opposite to younger generations. In both cases it's frustrating because the younger generations are the ones that will have to deal with the consequences of laws they did not agree with.
- TheFreim 3y agoI don't speak German, could someone clarify this for me: did they publicly admit to that they were planning to commit crimes, or aid others in committing crimes? If they were publicly planning criminal acts I don't see much, if any, issue of physically removing them from the ability to commit the crime, but I would need more context to make a personal judgement.
- sho_hn 3y agoNo, as far as I know, they did not specifically post time & day & intent of any crimes. They were known activists, and using a very controversial law, were preventatively taken into custody in the lead up of Germany's largest automotive expo. The bar you must jump to be able to do this to some one is state law, and differs by state. The bar in Bavara is, arguably, lower than in some other states by my (uneducated in the laws, so not very relevant) reading. For example in many German states, it requires a crime to be imminent. In Bavaria this is not the case.
- TheFreim 3y agoThank you for the information. One follow up question: > They were known activists Does "activist" hear mean they'd previously engaged in illegal activity, i.e. blocking roadways or similar "protests"?
- kioleanu 3y agoThat is exactly what it means, yes
- sho_hn 3y agoI assume so, yeah. The "Last Generation" is a loosely organized activist group that has been making headlines in the country for the past months, and by my understanding these were known associates/members of the org. One of their things to do is to glue themselves down in places to hinder others, think at events, on streets, tracks, airfields, etc. I don't know if there was concrete evidence of past crimes/actions for them. By my reading, Bavarian state law does not require this. In some other States, it is listed as one of the conditions to meet or "likely to repeat" is somehow baked into the lingo.
- myrmidon 3y agoThe cherry on top of this concerning totalitarian overreach is that even if the imprisoned would be found guilty of what they are accused of intending, it would not be punishable by prison, but fines only (!!). (Source: linked article)
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- thot_experiment 3y ago[flagged]
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- pmontra 3y agoI've been told that an ancestor of mine was escorted to jail when our king was passing by his city and sent back home when the king was gone. That was the 19th century.
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- jkingsbery 3y agoI don't know much German, so I can't read the original article. It would be helpful to know if by "they might otherwise engage in climate protests," the people in question had planned to just say things but otherwise stay out of the way, or if rather the people in question had made public their plans to break laws (like blocking traffic, which many climate protesters have been doing lately). In the one case there is no crime, and governments shouldn't be detaining people just in case they commit a crime later. In the other case, even if someone isn't a terrorist, planning on breaking the law is itself a crime, and it's not "preventative detention."
- roywiggins 3y agoThey haven't been convicted of anything, they're being detained anyway. This is not the same as pre-trial detention, if Google Translate is a remotely accurate rendering of the linked article: "Legally, this police approach is called preventive detention because it is not detention for a crime that has been committed. The police laws of the different states allow this for different lengths of time. In Bavaria, up to one month in prison is permitted, which may be extended by a judge for a maximum of another month. The so-called preventive or preventive detention is very controversial. The relevant laws were originally created to prevent terrorists from carrying out attacks. However, this form of detention is now also permitted in the case of the “imminent commission or continuation of an administrative offense of considerable importance for the general public,” as the Bavarian police law states. Lawsuits against this have so far been rejected in Bavaria. However, a final clarification about the legality of this approach is still pending."
- SahAssar 3y agoThe linked site in the toot almost certainly violates the GDPR since it requires either payment or tracking consent to access. Requiring payment is fine, but forced consent is not.
- fuzzbazz 3y agoI don't think so, the GDPR requires to ask for consent but nobody is being forced to press the "I consent" button. Additionally I'd guess the website of a German newspaper of record is not breaking the law.
- SahAssar 3y agoIt most probably is. See a similar case recently in Germany: https://www.iubenda.com/blog/understanding-consent-and-cookie-paywalls-key-lessons-from-lfd-decision/ https://www.iubenda.com/blog/understanding-consent-and-cooki... And there is absolutely a great number of major European news and media companies willingly ignoring the GDPR. Most people even remotely interested know this.
- fabian2k 3y agoThis is is a state law, not a federal one. As far as I understand it is limited to 2 months. Just a clarification, not a justification. It was a somewhat controversial law, and I think those cases clearly show why. Those laws always get justified with terrorism, and now they're jailing people that block traffic. I don't think such laws should exist, and we should do better there. Unfortunately I don't expect that with the Bavarian politic landscape this will happen on the legislative way.
- tfourb 3y agoAlso might be worth mentioning that the Bavarian state police law that these arrests are based on is actively challenged in court and there arrests could become part of that case.
- JAlexoid 3y agoI expect that this law is going to either be restricted by german courts, or ECHR/CJEU.
- tomohawk 3y ago[flagged]
- fabian2k 3y agoThere is a fundamental difference between killing people, placing bombs and gluing yourself to a road. If your definition of terrorism includes all of these, it's useless.
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- TylerE 3y agoNot really hard to come up with situations where this actually kills people. Someone in an ambulance getting delayed in getting to the hospital, just for a start.
- panarchy 3y ago[flagged]
- rob74 3y agoSpecifically: in Bavaria. Which is, of course, in Germany, but also a bit of a "state within a state", ruled by one party (the CSU) since the beginning of time, er, of the Federal Republic of Germany, and where things like this, which would cause much more outrage elsewhere, can and do happen.
- bowsamic 3y agoBavaria has really insane police overreach EDIT: I'm being downvoted for this? They literally have total police surveillance, all the Germans here in Hamburg talk about it all the time
- tpmx 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
- bowsamic 3y ago[flagged]
- user_7832 3y agoWouldn't it depend on the context though? If someone's being downvoted for something correct but unpopular, is that okay as per site guidelines?
- dredmorbius 3y agoMy own practice is to largely ignore instances. They're not hurting my Imaginary Internet Points much at all. Very occasionally I'll ask if someone could clarify or substantiate concerns with a comment. But that's about as far as any notice should go.
- renewiltord 3y agoThis is the place which famously required wind turbines to be 10H the distance from a settlement for a height H.
- siva7 3y agoThat’s very concerning. This bill came to life to prevent terrorist attacks like 9/11 but is now being abused in bavaria to jail climate protesters who could disturb the biggest automotive fair in the world.
- aaomidi 3y agoHonestly insanity because everyone warned this would happen.
- dfxm12 3y agoWhat is the value of everyone here wrt to voters? It makes you wonder what other policies the politicians who championed the "jail you for any reason under the guise of terrorism" policy also advocated for to get people to vote for them.
- usrusr 3y agoIt's a party running on regional identity, policy isn't really involved in voter decisions. They are in (regional) power almost as long as the CCP.
- superfrank 3y agoThe law is garbage and needs to go. I'm not defending it in the slightest. Tangentially, saying "everyone warned this would happen" as a criticism of something is almost always hindsight bias or survivorship bias. There are plenty of things that "everyone" says will happen that never happen and for the ones that do happen, "everyone" tends to overstate how certain they were about it being the only possible outcome.
- aaomidi 3y agoNot really. This was clear. I’m not going to listen to Joe down the street saying Obama is gonna start putting people into FEMA camps. I will however listen to civil right experts that explicitly warned against state overreach.
- aunty_helen 3y ago[flagged]
- fabian2k 3y agoThere is no law against mentioning Hitler or something like that. There are laws against denying the Holocaust, glorifying the Nazi regime or using Nazi symbols (e.g. the swastika).
- hyperhopper 3y agoWhich is ridiculous since it censors any video game around WW2
- aunty_helen 3y ago>There is no law against mentioning Hitler or something like that. Probably wasn’t talking about him then. >There are laws against denying the Holocaust, glorifying the Nazi regime or using Nazi symbols There ya go. Clever cookie.
- bowsamic 3y ago> laws against even mentioning the H word Germans talk about Hitler all the time. I was kind of shocked about how open they are about it
- jansan 3y agoThere is at least one Hitler headline in the newspaper every single day. And I am not even joking.
- potamic 3y agoHow can Europe call itself the bastion of liberty if you can detain someone because they participated in a protest, no strike that, because you feel they may participate in a protest. The bar has been lowered. Where does the rest of the world look up to now for the benchmark for fundamental rights?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- flohofwoe 3y agoThis is a very particular place within Europe called "Bavaria", a quasi-kingdom ruled by the same political party since time immortal. A bit like North Korea, but inhabited mostly by rich Catholics ;) (e.g. don't mix up "Bavaria" with "Europe", Bavaria's political situation is even atypical for Germany)
- staunton 3y agoSome candidates: Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Taiwan (esp. considering the circumstances), New Zealand.
- kelnos 3y agoDon't conflate "Europe" with "a single state in Germany".
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago> How can Europe call itself the bastion of liberty They are very much a nanny state/set of states. Not sure how anyone could take them saying that seriously.
- Geee 3y agoI'm pretty sure these "activists" are sponsored by oil and car companies. The idea is to provoke aggression towards climate activism, which would lead to increase in ICE car usage.
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- phartenfeller 3y agoIt seems far-fetched to me. Most people agree with the need for change. They disagree with the way they protest. I also don't see why many people would use a car more frequently just because there are protests against it. Additionally, many members come from Fridays for Future. They are frustrated as years of peaceful protest have led to no change. I see no connection to oil or car sponsorship in this.
- josefresco 3y agoReminds me of this: Dozens face RICO charges over Atlanta police center protests https://www.reuters.com/legal/dozens-face-rico-charges-over-atlanta-police-center-protests-2023-09-05/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/dozens-face-rico-charges-over-...
- joemazerino 3y agoHardly relevant. Antifa shot at police, threw Molotovs and cut arborist ropes endangering the workers. https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-over-60-stop-cop-city-protestors-indicted-on-rico-other-charges-in-atlanta https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-over-60-stop-cop-city...
- jansan 3y agoThere is very little sympathy with them by the common people. They have really overdone it with sabotaging common people's everyday life and calling it a "peacful protest". By that logic locking them away for a few days can also be described as peaceful.
- urduntupu 3y ago[flagged]
- olddustytrail 3y agoDid they? I don't believe you.
- kitkat_new 3y agothis isn't true
- anigbrowl 3y agoTurns out that was not the case: https://apnews.com/article/germany-climate-protest-prosecutors-cyclist-death-4739d029ab44aeceaa5a2ee55cd2532a https://apnews.com/article/germany-climate-protest-prosecuto...
- urduntupu 3y agoPolitically motivated decision as German state attorneys are bound by instruction. German ruling parties do finance climate activists.
- haizhung 3y agoThat is not correct, the state attorney has investigated this and found that the climate activists had no impact on the death of a cyclist, they would have died either way. Please cite your sources when making incidiary claims. https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/sta-berlin-keine-anklage-klimakleber-wegen-fahrlaessiger-toetung/ https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/sta-berlin-keine-ankl...
- urduntupu 3y agoIf only the state attorney was politically independent. Which is not the case for in some European countries. And climate activism is financially supported by German's green left wing parties. No wonder the state attorney came to such a conclusion https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000123389810/abhaengige-staatsanwaltschaften-das-schwaechliche-system https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000123389810/abhaengige-st... > The situation is completely different for public prosecutors: They are bound by instructions, and a long chain of examining authorities stands above them. > Above all, the many reports in politically sensitive cases demotivate public prosecutors and tie up resources that could be used for investigations. There's ton of information available, especially for the case of Germany.
- xyst 3y agoThis state will jail people for potential terror acts. yet won’t do anything about the actual terror brought upon by the O&G and auto industry through their dangerous products and by products (in the case of cars, micro plastics in the form of tire wear particles, brake dust, and of course car emissions if ICE). Millions die every year due to man made climate change yet governments jail these people. This world is fucked m8
- ryan93 3y agoMillions??? Also the people who release the co2 from those products are consumers. Consumers(i.e. everyone) is not gonna vote to convict themselves of doing a yearly holocaust.
- itishappy 3y agoConsumers also bought and leaded fuel and arsenic insolation. Many of us are capable of updating our assessment of the dangers around us.
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoGermany is currently bankrupting itself and possibly destroying its economy to go forward with the green transition. You need a reality check. I actually don't believe that we could do more than we are already doing.
- l33t7332273 3y agoI’m unsure about your claim of millions of annual deaths. What are the main causes of these deaths?
- c1sc0 3y agoDeaths attributed to air pollution by fossil fuel alone are in the millions.
- l33t7332273 3y ago
- tclover 3y agoWhy only 27
- andrewla 3y agoOn the face of it, this sounds very bad. I can't find confirmation that this is happening outside of the statements of the "letzte generation" group itself [1], and the article states as much. The statement from the Munich police [2] says that protesters were taken into custody for their acts, namely blockading traffic. The length of the detention was apparently extended by the district court, but the statement does not give a reason for it. Presumably it's connected to the belief that they will continue to carry out similar acts if released. I'm a bit conflicted here; if someone is being detained pre-trial for a crime, then "they are going to crime again" is a totally valid reason to hold them without bail pending trial. But it's not clear whether that is what is happening here. Although I am writing from a US perspective, I don't think I'm saying anything that is really specific to US law; this is more my general feelings around the limitations of police authority and how it intersects with civil liberties. I don't know if my understanding is correct, but I can't find direct evidence that the "preventative detention" law is actually being applied here -- I don't see any evidence of stormtroopers raiding people's houses and taking them into custody; just people who have already committed (minor) crimes being detained past the point of what some people would consider reasonable. [1] https://letztegeneration.org/blog/2023/09/liebe-und-wut-brief-aus-dem-gefaengnis/ https://letztegeneration.org/blog/2023/09/liebe-und-wut-brie... [2] https://www.polizei.bayern.de/aktuelles/pressemitteilungen/054709/index.html https://www.polizei.bayern.de/aktuelles/pressemitteilungen/0...
- user_7832 3y ago> I'm a bit conflicted here; if someone is being detained pre-trial for a crime, then "they are going to crime again" is a totally valid reason to hold them without bail pending trial. But it's not clear whether that is what is happening here. Not a lawyer, but doesn't this depend on whether or not it is a violent crime? Someone who may murder again should be treated differently than someone who may shoplift again.
- dfxm12 3y agoLegally, this depends on jurisdiction. From the standpoint of what's better for society, I agree with you.
- jimnotgym 3y agoIs the real crime here something about upsetting BMW? The German car lobby remains strong I see
- onionisafruit 3y agoIs there an English language article about this?
- stainablesteel 3y ago[flagged]
- bradley13 3y agoFor all the dissing on the Germans, let me point out that many countries use preventative detention in one form or another. This includes the USA. According to a book from Cambridge Press: "The federal government has the power to detain Americans and foreigners alike as suspected terrorists and the state and federal governments regularly use preventive detention against criminals." If you have reliable evidence that someone intends to commit a crime, should you not act to prevent it? In the case of climate protests: people blocking streets have caused a lot of disruption. They have provably prevented ambulances from reaching victims. More generally, they have impinged thousands of other people's lives in a variety of ways, sometimes seriously. The protesters also haven't yet grasped the fact that their actions are counterproductive. Since these protests have become more frequent, support for the related causes has dropped significantly. The protester are idiots. All the more so when some of them are spotted in airports, hypocritically taking international flights to go on vacation. Honestly, we've all had quite enough of them. If the police have evidence that they were planning further disruptions, support for preventative detention to avoid said disruptions is likely to be rather high...
- akira2501 3y ago> If you have reliable evidence that someone intends to commit a crime, should you not act to prevent it? Define reliable. Define crime. Misdemeanors? Felonies? Violent felonies?
- kitkat_new 3y ago> The protesters also haven't yet grasped the fact that their actions are counterproductive. "fact"
- ivan_gammel 3y agoWell, that is a fact. According to polls Germans do not support their actions. https://www.ndr.de/ndrfragt/Umfrage-Letzte-Generation-geht-Mehrheit-zu-weit,ergebnisse1158.html https://www.ndr.de/ndrfragt/Umfrage-Letzte-Generation-geht-M...
- 3y ago
- INTPenis 3y agoIt's kinda funny to me when I see the police drag protesters away from these industrial sights that they occupy. Because if we are to believe climate research then some of these industries are literally damaging the living space for all humans. In some cases the police should be hauling the exeutives away, not the protestors. But the regular police can't be expected to do such deep investigations based on scientific data, so instead they end up protecting the interests of large corporations by hauling regular concerned citizens away. It's quite a bizarre state of events.
- dfxm12 3y agoThe police exists to protect capital, not regular folks like us.
- JAlexoid 3y agoYep, most people forget this fact. Police is explicitly there to protect property. Sometimes they do protect people, but that is typically an exception
- huijzer 3y agoI think sweeping statements like this might seem fair in the context of this article, but are actually harmful to democracy. A fundamental right in liberal societies, for better or worse, is that of property rights. Yes, some people have a large amount of property so police will try to protect that large amount of property, but the police will also protect your property. More generally, police will protect you if you someone tries to physically attack you. We shouldn’t take this for granted since autocratic regimes care much less about these principles and will take away your property or physically harm you if they feel like it.
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoTo say that the police will protect you is not accurate. The police are a preventative institution. They try to maintain order and reduce the incidence of crimes and act as a deterrent for those who would otherwise commit a crime. But they aren't a condom around violence. If somebody wants to hurt you, they can, and you're mostly on your own. They will only be brought in to investigate the case later, and maybe catch the perpetrator. It is kind of funny how we Europeans are brought up with this illusion of safety, believing that the police are some kind of superhero characters that will spring to action the second before we get knifed or shot.
- woodpanel 3y agoI’m somewhat in disbelief that there’s actually a state within the German federation that hasn‘t forgotten the terror of the RAF, which the „Letzte Generation“ ticks all the boxes of becoming too, for they are of the same ilk: pampered upper class kids in an astroturfed cult. https://www.eugyppius.com/p/activism-agency-and-the-escape-from https://www.eugyppius.com/p/activism-agency-and-the-escape-f...?
- Fractoid 3y ago[flagged]
- Simulacra 3y agoIn a situation where a person in continually causing a disruption to the lives of others - in some cases infringing on their rights - then preventive detention may be the only remedy.
- matricaria 3y agoWhy is this on HN? This violates a lot of the guidelines. - Not the original source - It’s on national news, one of the biggest newspapers - Off topic
- matricaria 3y agoI think the main reason they Bavarian government is doing this is because we have an election this fall. They government parties would otherwise lose a lot of votes as the majority of the population disagrees with those „protesters“.
- nrvn 3y agoCovid-19 lockdown proved what is deemed to be an uncomfortable truth: the one and only source of negative climate effects is us. 8 billion people is too much for that planet to handle. In 1900 there was around 1,000,000,000 and it was already too much. We are among the most populous mammals on earth. Sorry for those romantic individuals who think they can fight with a “protest”.
- snehk 3y agoThey don't do climate protests. They harass people and destroy property. Next time I break the law I'll just say I did it in the name of human rights and then complain when I don't get to do whatever I want.
- mbar84 3y ago"Might do" ? Is it not the case, that they have declared their intent to commit crimes and it is perfectly plausible that they would?