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I think it's unfair to compare Facebook actively screwing us to Apple not adopting your proposed metric on their product and passively allowing a very popular a

I think it's unfair to compare Facebook actively screwing us to Apple not adopting your proposed metric on their product and passively allowing a very popular app in their app store. Not a huge fan of Apple, but they aren't Facebook.

godelski 3y ago
> I think it's unfair to compare Facebook ... to Apple They aren't? They're saying Meta is screwing us and that Apple could do more to protect us. That they spend a lot of time and money talking the talk but they don't so much walk the walk. They sure do a bit, but they could do a lot more. Article definitely isn't saying Apple is as bad as Meta and Meta is 100% the "bad guy" in the story. It's just that our castle walls (Apple) are shiny but not strong. The Great Wall isn't so great if it isn't keeping the Mongolians out and you definitely shouldn't be advertising it as such when it doesn't.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Agree. But the point of the post appears to be to push Apple toward disclosing these bad actors and dark patterns. Shaming Apple might work. (I think we already know that shaming Meta will have no effect.)
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  You mean... like this? https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request...
  - nirvdrum 3y ago
    I've read this a few times and I unfortunately can't understand how you meant this since it can be read a few different ways. Those links are for government data requests, but what's being requested in a privacy report for apps on the platform. Assuming you're asking if Apple should make a site like that but for non-government bad actors, I think the answer is "yes". That's the sort of transparency report being asked for, but broken down by the app or organization asking for that data. Ideally that would lead to the market pressuring such apps or organizations to only request the data they actually need.
    - giancarlostoro 3y ago
      Yeah, that's all I'm asking, and maybe its linked to on their pages with info for each app.
giancarlostoro 3y ago
I was going to say, nobody believes in any privacy Meta alleges. Even when they do E2EE they still collect anything else about you that they can.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  Nobody believes anything Meta or Google have to say about privacy. Google is currently trying to sell additional ways to spy on users built into the newest version of Chrome as a "privacy sandbox". > all of Google's documentation about this feature feels like it was written on opposite day, with Google calling the browser-based advertising platform "a significant step on the path towards a fundamentally more private web." https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-opposed-ad-platform-the-privacy-sandbox-launches-in-chrome https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-oppos...
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Who brought google up? They aren’t relevant to the discussion.
    - doublerabbit 3y ago
      How are they not relevant. They suck data from you for money. Exactly what Twitter, Microsoft and Amazon do too.
      - soperj 3y ago
        And Apple now with their ad business. How are they fundamentally different?
        doublerabbit 3y ago
        I agree. Apple has always had an advertising business, remember apps with ad banners in the early IOS store? However the fundamental difference is that their model is being an hardware company.
josefresco 3y ago
Apple is allowing nefarious actors into their "walled garden". See the "security theater guy" referenced in the article. If you want the benefit of having a "walled garden" to extort developers (30%) and control customers (offloading not allowed), you need to take responsibility when someone you admit into your walled garden harms users.
ksec 3y ago
>Not a huge fan of Apple, but they aren't Facebook. Not a Fan of Facebook, but Facebook never claimed to be the defender of Fundamental Human Right or the Guardian of Privacy. Some people like to label them as evil or the less of evil. I like to label them as evil and hypocrite.
- tobr 3y ago
  > Facebook never claimed to be the defender of Fundamental Human Right “Our Commitment to Human Rights” https://about.fb.com/news/2021/03/our-commitment-to-human-rights/ https://about.fb.com/news/2021/03/our-commitment-to-human-ri... > or the Guardian of Privacy. “Upholding Our Commitment to Protecting Your Privacy” https://about.fb.com/news/2023/05/upholding-our-commitment-to-protecting-your-privacy/ https://about.fb.com/news/2023/05/upholding-our-commitment-t...
goalieca 3y ago
Apple does not have a tracking pixel on half the popular web. Apple's main source of income is through luxury hardware and subscription services. Facebook sells your information and attention to willing buyers.
- xbmcuser 3y ago
  Apple does not need a tracking pixel as it has better information on 50+% of Americans then facebook. Where they live where they eat who they hang out what they spend on all the info is with apple.
- nicce 3y ago
  Apple's ad business, however, is growing all the time. And in significant margins. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/apple-is-an-ad-company-now https://www.wired.co.uk/article/apple-is-an-ad-company-now https://www.statista.com/statistics/1330127/apple-ad-revenue-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1330127/apple-ad-revenue...
  - isodev 3y ago
    Apple shows ads for apps in the App Store sans behavioural targeting. If there is a kind of “ethical ads” that’s as close as it gets.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      There are ads in the Apple News app that are the same kind of garbage you'd see on Google ads.
    - goodbyesf 3y ago
      What's with the pathetic apple fanboyism? They are one of the biggest vaccuums of data. They will use that data for money just like everyone else. Apple's just late to the ad game. Years ago it was google fanboyism with 'don't be evil'. Now it's the unbearable apple privacy fanboys and the insufferable tesla/spacex cult members.
atarian 3y ago
Agreed, it’s an apples to oranges comparison.
carimura 3y ago
To be fair they aren't. They are demonstrating how Apple is a willing participant obfuscating the actual privacy monstrosities happening by Meta.
xtanx 3y ago
> I think it's unfair to compare Facebook actively screwing us to Apple not adopting your proposed metric I don't think they were comparing. They were basically saying that Apple is complicit to what Facebook (and others) are doing with regard to data collection.
factorialboy 3y ago
Incorrect. Apple actively screws us. Just a couple of years ago, launching apps became incredibly slow for some time. Diagnosis: Apple's telemetry web service was having hiccups: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-apps-not-opening-or-slow-due-to-apple-server-issues-how-to-fix-for-now.2267521/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-apps-not-opening-or...
- vore 3y ago
  I would be hard pressed to call a transient operational issue of their service "actively screwing" you.
  - factorialboy 3y ago
    You missed the point. Apple tracks every app launch. And reports it to an external server. Not localized. Not anonymized.
    - tomnipotent 3y ago
      You didn't make a point. App telemetry is absolutely benign compared to the kind of invasive ad tracking that Facebook participates in. There's no shortage of horror stories of poorly implemented Facebook Pixel integrations passing sensitive user data that marketers then use to create custom ad campaigns. Most recent examples that come to mind: https://www.extremetech.com/internet/341111-tax-filing-websites-caught-sending-users-financial-data-to-facebook https://www.extremetech.com/internet/341111-tax-filing-websi... https://gizmodo.com/sat-college-board-tells-facebook-tiktok-your-scores-gpa-1850768077 https://gizmodo.com/sat-college-board-tells-facebook-tiktok-... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/27/nhs-data-breach-trusts-shared-patient-details-with-facebook-meta-without-consent https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/27/nhs-data-bre... https://themarkup.org/pixel-hunt/2022/12/13/out-of-control-dozens-of-telehealth-startups-sent-sensitive-health-information-to-big-tech-companies https://themarkup.org/pixel-hunt/2022/12/13/out-of-control-d...
      - Draiken 3y ago
fmajid 3y ago
If anything the article gives Apple unjustifiable benefit of doubt. Apple exempts itself fron the IDFA transparency requirements it imposes on third-party app developers, and has drawn legal scrutiny in France and the EU, among others: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-when-off-app-store-1849757558 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-whe... Then there is their scanning of iCloud backups for CSAM without being forced to do so by law, something Meta hasn't done with WhatsApp, and obviously not Signal either. CSAM today, messages critical of the powers that be tomorrow, they breached a fundamental ethical line in end-to-end encryption and they are thus now completely untrustworthy on encryption. Apple's marketing is very effective, but the idea that they are any better than the other Big Tech firms on privacy is just that, marketing fluff without substance if you dig but a little. None of them can be trusted. At this point the only way to really protect your privacy is to connect to the Internet using a MiFI or similar router running open-source software and implementing an outbound firewall blocklist like Jordan Geoghegan's unbound-adblock: https://geoghegan.ca//unbound-adblock.html https://geoghegan.ca//unbound-adblock.html
- fh9302 3y ago
  Can you show a source for your iCloud backup CSAM scanning claim? These days iCloud supports E2EE so they have no ability to scan once you enable it. Signal does not support any cloud backups and WhatsApp uses iCloud so this seems like a flawed comparison.
  - RedComet 3y ago
    Even with e2ee enabled for iCloud, Apple has access to hashes of the plaintext files.
  - fmajid 3y ago
    Straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... "Before an image is stored in iCloud Photos, an on-device matching process is performed for that image against the database of known CSAM hashes". Thus the scanning is done by your device against the unencrypted image before uploading it to iCloud. The fact they abandoned the plan is irrelevant, by considering it in the first place (and to a very high level of engineering R&D as evidenced by the document), they set a precedent and forefeited any trust. It's CSAM today, it will be mentions Winnie the Pooh mocking Xi Jinping tomorrow, and of abortion in Texas the day after. Now, the only way I'd trust an Apple-mediated encrypted messaging service is if the clientapp is third-party and thus can't be backdoored retroactively if Apple feels it expedient to do so.
KaiserPro 3y ago
And yet apple make so much noise about privacy, but don't activly block access to personal information. Like why do they allow access to the health data stored in the phone? It's almost like they need facebook to be the devil so they can say how good they are.
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  You have to opt in to that tho? Some apps do need your health info because they're a health/activity app.
  - KaiserPro 3y ago
    > You have to opt in to that tho Exactly! and yet the threads app doesn't actually request that access. Hence my scepticism
divbzero 3y ago
OP is not saying that Apple and Meta are comparable, but rather that Apple should actively protect us to live up to their pro-privacy stance.

godelski 3y ago

> I think it's unfair to compare Facebook ... to Apple They aren't? They're saying Meta is screwing us and that Apple could do more to protect us. That they spend a lot of time and money talking the talk but they don't so much walk the walk. They sure do a bit, but they could do a lot more. Article definitely isn't saying Apple is as bad as Meta and Meta is 100% the "bad guy" in the story. It's just that our castle walls (Apple) are shiny but not strong. The Great Wall isn't so great if it isn't keeping the Mongolians out and you definitely shouldn't be advertising it as such when it doesn't.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

Agree. But the point of the post appears to be to push Apple toward disclosing these bad actors and dark patterns. Shaming Apple might work. (I think we already know that shaming Meta will have no effect.)

giancarlostoro 3y ago
You mean... like this? https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request...
- nirvdrum 3y ago
  I've read this a few times and I unfortunately can't understand how you meant this since it can be read a few different ways. Those links are for government data requests, but what's being requested in a privacy report for apps on the platform. Assuming you're asking if Apple should make a site like that but for non-government bad actors, I think the answer is "yes". That's the sort of transparency report being asked for, but broken down by the app or organization asking for that data. Ideally that would lead to the market pressuring such apps or organizations to only request the data they actually need.
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    Yeah, that's all I'm asking, and maybe its linked to on their pages with info for each app.

giancarlostoro 3y ago

I was going to say, nobody believes in any privacy Meta alleges. Even when they do E2EE they still collect anything else about you that they can.

GeekyBear 3y ago
Nobody believes anything Meta or Google have to say about privacy. Google is currently trying to sell additional ways to spy on users built into the newest version of Chrome as a "privacy sandbox". > all of Google's documentation about this feature feels like it was written on opposite day, with Google calling the browser-based advertising platform "a significant step on the path towards a fundamentally more private web." https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-opposed-ad-platform-the-privacy-sandbox-launches-in-chrome https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/googles-widely-oppos...
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Who brought google up? They aren’t relevant to the discussion.
  - doublerabbit 3y ago
    How are they not relevant. They suck data from you for money. Exactly what Twitter, Microsoft and Amazon do too.
    - soperj 3y ago
      And Apple now with their ad business. How are they fundamentally different?
      - doublerabbit 3y ago
        I agree. Apple has always had an advertising business, remember apps with ad banners in the early IOS store? However the fundamental difference is that their model is being an hardware company.

josefresco 3y ago

Apple is allowing nefarious actors into their "walled garden". See the "security theater guy" referenced in the article. If you want the benefit of having a "walled garden" to extort developers (30%) and control customers (offloading not allowed), you need to take responsibility when someone you admit into your walled garden harms users.

ksec 3y ago

>Not a huge fan of Apple, but they aren't Facebook. Not a Fan of Facebook, but Facebook never claimed to be the defender of Fundamental Human Right or the Guardian of Privacy. Some people like to label them as evil or the less of evil. I like to label them as evil and hypocrite.

tobr 3y ago
> Facebook never claimed to be the defender of Fundamental Human Right “Our Commitment to Human Rights” https://about.fb.com/news/2021/03/our-commitment-to-human-rights/ https://about.fb.com/news/2021/03/our-commitment-to-human-ri... > or the Guardian of Privacy. “Upholding Our Commitment to Protecting Your Privacy” https://about.fb.com/news/2023/05/upholding-our-commitment-to-protecting-your-privacy/ https://about.fb.com/news/2023/05/upholding-our-commitment-t...

goalieca 3y ago

Apple does not have a tracking pixel on half the popular web. Apple's main source of income is through luxury hardware and subscription services. Facebook sells your information and attention to willing buyers.

xbmcuser 3y ago
Apple does not need a tracking pixel as it has better information on 50+% of Americans then facebook. Where they live where they eat who they hang out what they spend on all the info is with apple.
nicce 3y ago
Apple's ad business, however, is growing all the time. And in significant margins. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/apple-is-an-ad-company-now https://www.wired.co.uk/article/apple-is-an-ad-company-now https://www.statista.com/statistics/1330127/apple-ad-revenue-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1330127/apple-ad-revenue...
- isodev 3y ago
  Apple shows ads for apps in the App Store sans behavioural targeting. If there is a kind of “ethical ads” that’s as close as it gets.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    There are ads in the Apple News app that are the same kind of garbage you'd see on Google ads.
  - goodbyesf 3y ago
    What's with the pathetic apple fanboyism? They are one of the biggest vaccuums of data. They will use that data for money just like everyone else. Apple's just late to the ad game. Years ago it was google fanboyism with 'don't be evil'. Now it's the unbearable apple privacy fanboys and the insufferable tesla/spacex cult members.

atarian 3y ago

Agreed, it’s an apples to oranges comparison.

carimura 3y ago

To be fair they aren't. They are demonstrating how Apple is a willing participant obfuscating the actual privacy monstrosities happening by Meta.

xtanx 3y ago

> I think it's unfair to compare Facebook actively screwing us to Apple not adopting your proposed metric I don't think they were comparing. They were basically saying that Apple is complicit to what Facebook (and others) are doing with regard to data collection.

factorialboy 3y ago

Incorrect. Apple actively screws us. Just a couple of years ago, launching apps became incredibly slow for some time. Diagnosis: Apple's telemetry web service was having hiccups: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-apps-not-opening-or-slow-due-to-apple-server-issues-how-to-fix-for-now.2267521/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-apps-not-opening-or...

vore 3y ago
I would be hard pressed to call a transient operational issue of their service "actively screwing" you.
- factorialboy 3y ago
  You missed the point. Apple tracks every app launch. And reports it to an external server. Not localized. Not anonymized.
  - tomnipotent 3y ago
    You didn't make a point. App telemetry is absolutely benign compared to the kind of invasive ad tracking that Facebook participates in. There's no shortage of horror stories of poorly implemented Facebook Pixel integrations passing sensitive user data that marketers then use to create custom ad campaigns. Most recent examples that come to mind: https://www.extremetech.com/internet/341111-tax-filing-websites-caught-sending-users-financial-data-to-facebook https://www.extremetech.com/internet/341111-tax-filing-websi... https://gizmodo.com/sat-college-board-tells-facebook-tiktok-your-scores-gpa-1850768077 https://gizmodo.com/sat-college-board-tells-facebook-tiktok-... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/27/nhs-data-breach-trusts-shared-patient-details-with-facebook-meta-without-consent https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/27/nhs-data-bre... https://themarkup.org/pixel-hunt/2022/12/13/out-of-control-dozens-of-telehealth-startups-sent-sensitive-health-information-to-big-tech-companies https://themarkup.org/pixel-hunt/2022/12/13/out-of-control-d...
    - Draiken 3y ago

fmajid 3y ago

If anything the article gives Apple unjustifiable benefit of doubt. Apple exempts itself fron the IDFA transparency requirements it imposes on third-party app developers, and has drawn legal scrutiny in France and the EU, among others: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-when-off-app-store-1849757558 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-whe... Then there is their scanning of iCloud backups for CSAM without being forced to do so by law, something Meta hasn't done with WhatsApp, and obviously not Signal either. CSAM today, messages critical of the powers that be tomorrow, they breached a fundamental ethical line in end-to-end encryption and they are thus now completely untrustworthy on encryption. Apple's marketing is very effective, but the idea that they are any better than the other Big Tech firms on privacy is just that, marketing fluff without substance if you dig but a little. None of them can be trusted. At this point the only way to really protect your privacy is to connect to the Internet using a MiFI or similar router running open-source software and implementing an outbound firewall blocklist like Jordan Geoghegan's unbound-adblock: https://geoghegan.ca//unbound-adblock.html https://geoghegan.ca//unbound-adblock.html

fh9302 3y ago
Can you show a source for your iCloud backup CSAM scanning claim? These days iCloud supports E2EE so they have no ability to scan once you enable it. Signal does not support any cloud backups and WhatsApp uses iCloud so this seems like a flawed comparison.
- RedComet 3y ago
  Even with e2ee enabled for iCloud, Apple has access to hashes of the plaintext files.
- fmajid 3y ago
  Straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... "Before an image is stored in iCloud Photos, an on-device matching process is performed for that image against the database of known CSAM hashes". Thus the scanning is done by your device against the unencrypted image before uploading it to iCloud. The fact they abandoned the plan is irrelevant, by considering it in the first place (and to a very high level of engineering R&D as evidenced by the document), they set a precedent and forefeited any trust. It's CSAM today, it will be mentions Winnie the Pooh mocking Xi Jinping tomorrow, and of abortion in Texas the day after. Now, the only way I'd trust an Apple-mediated encrypted messaging service is if the clientapp is third-party and thus can't be backdoored retroactively if Apple feels it expedient to do so.

KaiserPro 3y ago

And yet apple make so much noise about privacy, but don't activly block access to personal information. Like why do they allow access to the health data stored in the phone? It's almost like they need facebook to be the devil so they can say how good they are.

lost_tourist 3y ago
You have to opt in to that tho? Some apps do need your health info because they're a health/activity app.
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  > You have to opt in to that tho Exactly! and yet the threads app doesn't actually request that access. Hence my scepticism

divbzero 3y ago

OP is not saying that Apple and Meta are comparable, but rather that Apple should actively protect us to live up to their pro-privacy stance.