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Texas just got closer to blackouts than it has since 2021. What happened?
- vvpan 3y agoBefore the blockchain hate gets too intense just wanted to remind that Bitcoin is the odd one out using a proof-of-work algorithm. Pretty much every other project uses a security technique that is light on power-consumption.
- ftxbro 3y agoIt would have had blackouts if it didn't build all those bitcoin mines. The bitcoin mines encouraged power infrastructure development, and they can just be taken offline when high heat causes power demand spikes for air conditioning.
- actionfromafar 3y agoStill a very roundabout way for the state gov to pay for infra upgrades.
- gyanreyer 3y agoI'm not from Texas so genuinely asking, is there hard proof that anyone specifically invested in power infrastructure because of bitcoin mines in a way they wouldn't have otherwise?
- karmajunkie 3y agoi live in texas and no, there’s not. because it didn’t happen.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pseg134 3y agoMy family has lived in Texas for 100 years and I monitor all utility construction that occurs in the state. I can confirm that it didn’t happen.
- kaibee 3y ago> I'm not from Texas so genuinely asking, is there hard proof that anyone specifically invested in power infrastructure because of bitcoin mines in a way they wouldn't have otherwise? In theory supply and demand still exists in Texas, and Bitcoin miners do demand a lot of energy. Assuming that energy companies are including Bitcoin miners in their demand projections (I don't see why they wouldn't?) then the default assumption is that just based on the market forces at play, capacity should have been built with Bitcoin miner demand included.
- jcranmer 3y agoDoing some back-of-the-envelope calculations, it seems that a power company would make more money selling wholesale power to the open market in ERCOT than it would mining bitcoin. The simple fact of the matter is Texas does not have sufficient electrical generation capacity to satiate its demands, especially given the record spate of hot days (it's been daily highs above 100F in Austin for two months). There's no need to add extra sources of demand to encourage new supply.
- MisterBastahrd 3y agoPeople literally freezing to death amidst billions of dollars of water damage to homes via busted pipes didn't encourage the state to upgrade its infrastructure.
- rtkwe 3y agoThis is the same logic that says bitcoin encouraged green power building but in reality they just absorb the excess power from the cheapest source available so they're essentially offsetting any new power generation by simply consuming more power when it's available. They anchor the rate around what is profitable to mine at so power doesn't get lower unless/until mining becomes less profitable.
- gustavus 3y agoSo Texas almost got close to a blackout in the last 2 years? Is this newsworthy, are we reporting on things that almost happened?
- outside1234 3y agoIts newsworthy because of its frequency of occurrence.
- detourdog 3y agoI think the news is that they paid bitcoin miners to sit idle. The only other choice was to charge them more for power usage.
- karmajunkie 3y agoright, they save that second option for regular consumers.
- rtkwe 3y agoAFAIK users have the option of signing up for the fixed rate plan or the variable rate plans when they sign up with their provider. That's why not everyone got hit with the multi-thousand dollar bills during 2021, they had benefitted from the lower pricing in general but were hung out to dry during these spikes.
- ForgottenPwd 3y agoOr just cut power to them. It's hardly on the level of critical infrastructure like a hospital, or 50,000 homes in 110+ degree F heat.
- karmajunkie 3y agoand because of the timing. a blackout or grid failure now would be incredibly deadly to vulnerable populations.
- deleted 3y ago
- probablyexists 3y agoDon't worry, Texas is just helping the crypto miners rather than their citizens again. "The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) paid a bitcoin miner $31.7 million in energy credits in August to not mine bitcoin. During the August heat wave, ERCOT issued eight calls for voluntary energy conservation. People were asked to adjust home thermostats or delay doing laundry during the energy call."
- actionfromafar 3y agoI think I have to set up shop in Texas with some space heaters and claim my bitcoin energy credits!
- kaibee 3y ago>“His specialty was alfalfa, and he made a good thing out of not growing any. The government paid him well for every bushel of alfalfa he did not grow. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn't earn on new land to increase the amount of alfalfa he did not produce. Major Major's father worked without rest at not growing alfalfa. On long winter evenings he remained indoors and did not mend harness, and he sprang out of bed at the crack of noon every day just to make certain that the chores would not be done. He invested in land wisely and soon was not growing more alfalfa than any other man in the county. Neighbours sought him out for advice on all subjects, for he had made much money and was therefore wise. “As ye sow, so shall ye reap,” he counselled one and all, and everyone said “Amen.” The more things change eh
- anon____ 3y agoThe quote is from Joseph Heller's Catch-22.
- hindsightbias 3y ago“His specialty was crypto, and he made a good thing out of not mining any. The government paid him well for every coin of crypto he did not mine. The more crypto he did not mine, the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn't earn on new servers to increase the amount of crypto he did not produce. Major Major's father worked without rest at not mining crypto. On long winter evenings he remained indoors and did not mend cable ties, and he sprang out of bed at the crack of noon every day just to make certain that the admin would not be done. He invested in datacenters wisely and soon was not mining more crypto than any other man in the county. Neighbours sought him out for advice on all subjects, for he had made much money and was therefore wise. “As ye sow, so shall ye reap,” he counselled one and all, and everyone said “KK.”
- gray_-_wolf 3y ago> Some of these tactics have proven controversial with consumers. One program that pays big power users like cryptocurrency operations millions to conserve, has come under particular scrutiny, as Texans have been asked to conserve voluntarily for months. This is... amazing. Not in a good way.
- ftxbro 3y agois this what they mean by privatizing profits and socializing losses
- HumblyTossed 3y agoNo, this is called, "It never trickled down, it only funneled up!"
- refurb 3y agoIt’s a cute saying, but that really doesn’t make sense in this situation. How is society taking a loss?
- wombat-man 3y agoMaybe they can just price electricity at different tiers of use. Or home vs business rates. Charge crypto farms more, especially if the grid is struggling.
- hardware2win 3y agoWat? There isnt already such a thing?
- runnerup 3y agoThere is. Pricing is split mostly along residential vs. commercial vs. industrial although there’s a few more layers of discrimination based on usage patterns and “power factor” (reactive vs capacitive load).
- 3y ago
- outside1234 3y agoIf only they had interconnect with other states for backup power...
- actionfromafar 3y agoI actually think it’s the only somewhat good thing about Texas’ grid. What better way to ensure Island configuration works than running that mode all the time?
- outside1234 3y agoI mean I guess - but there is no getting around that it concentrates risk...
- TexanFeller 3y agoTexas is massive, bigger than many countries and bigger than several nearby states put together. Most forms of geographic and other kinds of risk could be smoothed over with sheer scale. We have massive energy production resources including not just oil and natural gas, but way more than our fair share of nuclear, wind, and solar. Most likely we'd be helping other states much more often than they help us. The TX grid is a mess due to sheer mismanagement and poor regulation, not so much being disconnected from our neighbors. It's maddening how little it would take to do better, like just better weatherizing the nuke plants and the gas pipes feeding natural gas generation so it doesn't go down when there's a worse than average freeze.
- actionfromafar 3y agoA US wide grid failure can’t cascade into Texas if Texas is not connected. Most national grids have plans to run areaa in island mode in case of catastrophic failure, but who knows how well that would work.
- gcr 3y agoThe article states that the sharp drop in reserves was being “investigated,” and that it is “suspected” that a large power plant stopped working. Is observability of Texan infrastructure so poor that the _power company_ doesn’t have a comprehensive view of _which power plants are operational_?
- scientifik 3y agoIt sounds like they're dancing around what may be a social issue; ERCOT sent an email asking people to "conserve", within 30 minutes they saw a negative impact. Is it possible some recipients saw the email and took the complete opposite action?
- Tagbert 3y agosomething something ... cold dead hands?
- Justsignedup 3y ago[flagged]
- loupol 3y agoIt wouldn't surprise me if after an email telling them to lower their consumption, consumers would anticipate the worst and instead decide to recharge any electrical appliances reliant on batteries (Power banks, EVs, etc...) "just in case". Bank/toilet paper rush style.
- Clent 3y agoGiven the previous grid crash this is a rational reaction. While may be cathartic to muse how certain political ideologies tend to do the exact opposite when asked to conserve, Texans' don't trust the grid and they have valid reasons to not trust it.
- briffle 3y agoif I was looking at potential power cut during a heat wave in my home, I would probably lower my AC a few degrees, and if your honest, most of you would too..
- nimbius 3y agothe more I read about ERCOT, the texas energy council, the more im convinced its a grift that wasnt designed to survive the test of climate change. ERCOT reform was announced by Governor Abbott in 2021, but that same reform was also penned in a nearly 400 page report that was completely ignored during ERCOT's 2011 failure. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/03/26/in-20-years-ercot-has-been-a-misbehaving-secretive-arrogant-even-criminal-grid-operator/ https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/03/26/in-20-ye...
- nxobject 3y agoIt seems very much like a Texan good 'ol boys club. At least, that's my best attempt at understanding the root causes of the dysfunction here?
- drewchew 3y agoI think the root cause may be a retail market for something that should be a public utility?
- refurb 3y agoSounds very similar to Californians PGE. It’s run like a dumpster fire ($0.30/kWh which is ridiculous) and the system is falling apart. The best part is the governor complains yet PGE can’t restock toilet paper without CPUC approval and guess who sits on CPUC? The governors appointees.
- dragonwriter 3y agoERCOT is more functionally analogous to CalISO than PG&E.
- mc32 3y agoA map of power outages over the last few years with TX, CA, LA, WA and MI in the lead: https://www.fixr.com/articles/power-outage-solutions https://www.fixr.com/articles/power-outage-solutions Maine is a headscratcher with HydroQuebec across the border.
- altcognito 3y agoMI downtime is a result of cutting back on expensive tree trimming and other upkeep functions. We had a good run of very light storms but we’re back to normal wind and all those tree limbs that should have been taken care of now are adding up the down time.
- jeffbee 3y agoThat is a pretty misleading presentation, because of the cherry-picked dates and conflating (apparently) capacity-related outages with public safety shutoffs, and for not weighting by population impact. California has not had any capacity-related problems in the past 2 years, mostly due to the fact that they now have 5.5GW of battery backup capacity that covers the critical period at dusk, when solar generation is headed for zero, during late summer where the days are getting shorter but it is still hot.
- pengaru 3y ago> they now have 5.5GW of battery backup capacity that covers the critical period at dusk, when solar generation is headed for zero, during late summer where the days are getting shorter but it is still hot Am I supposed to interpret "covers critical period at dusk..." as the "hours" part of 5.5GW? Because I'm having trouble grokking what is the actual battery backup capacity described here... Does CA have battery capacity that can last a single evening @ 5.5GW of load?
- jeffbee 3y agoEvery grid-scale battery in CA has 4 hours of energy capacity at its rated power, so 22GW-h at present.
- nonethewiser 3y agoWhat's stopping power companies from ramping up energy production? They know in advance there will be problems. What stopping them from just producing more? I realize there are some peculiarities of the Texas grid, but this is obviously a problem beyond Texas, as California and east coast has blackouts as well. I'm asking about all these cases. I imagine maybe this requires some additional infrastructure that simply doesn't exist. If so, what's the barrier to building this infrastructure?
- vel0city 3y agoWhen you're already running at full tilt, how are you going to ramp up energy production? You then need to build more. Building and connecting takes time. Texas has added several state's worth of energy to the grid in the past few years. The peak hit at the 2021 winter storm was 76GW, far higher than any normal time historically. This summer, just two years later, Texas is going >85GW of power demand every day. For comparison, New York's projected peak demand is only 32GW for this summer. So Texas' demand grew by an additional 1/3 of New York's entire demand in just 2 years. That's a massive amount of growth! https://dps.ny.gov/summer-energy-outlook https://dps.ny.gov/summer-energy-outlook
- nonethewiser 3y agoSo essentially its high growth in energy demand? And probably it not making sense financially to overbuild.
- bombcar 3y agoThe demand is there, the building is there, but if you overbuild you can get screwed very hard, so the power companies have (very complex, mind you) models that they use to determine if a plant will make sense to bring online. Those models may have been wrong, or based on assumptions about temperatures that turned out incorrect.
- gcr 3y ago
- mempko 3y agoWait, so instead of charging their crypto mining customers more, they are paying them not to mine? WTF? You have to love their "free market" energy grid /s
- dylan604 3y agowe pay farmers more to not grow something as well. there's a lot of WTactualF moments in where the government spends money.
- esotericimpl 3y ago[dead]
- bombcar 3y agoIf you look at it like "I contracted to be able to buy 1 GW from you" and now you're paying me to buy that contract back, it makes a bit more sense.
- adamfeldman 3y agoThis is the first I've seen data on high demand growth this summer (I live in Texas and try to follow these issues). > The power grid has seen overall demand grow 7% this summer, after two decades of predictable 1% per year growth, and 10 preliminary demand records since late June. [1] [1]: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/ercot-grid-conservation-request-18351400.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/erc...
- wc- 3y agoThere's a lot of misunderstanding in the comments so far regarding bitcoin mining incentives. I urge you to read this thread describing the split-second load-shedding response time from the POV of one of these miners: https://twitter.com/ogbtc/status/1699588007664275873 https://twitter.com/ogbtc/status/1699588007664275873 It also goes into the other mechanism by which they make money (being natural sellers of future energy demand contracts during times of high demand). This mechanism is similar to how other commodity markets operate with producers, consumers with steady future demand, and consumers with unpredictable short-term demand. Our energy grids need to keep an equal demand/production at all times, and on-demand load-shedding is a valuable part of this equation. The bitcoin miners are providing a service to ERCOT and being paid for it. If there were a more "productive" source of on-demand energy usage, then it will replace the bitcoin miners, this is how markets work (of which both energy production/consumption and capitalism in general are). This is the reality of how the texas energy grid works at present. The bitcoin miners, for lack of a (subjectively) "better" option, are filling the two needs of elastic load-shedding and predictable future demand. The first is very hard to fill, the latter can probably be fulfilled more productively with steady demand from other industries (factories, data centers, other things that run 24h per day). One more edit: this whole equation changes COMPLETELY if we have the ability to store energy production in times of low demand to be used in future times of high demand (batteries). We don't currently have this at any sort of reasonably useful scale, we need this, and the current "market" everyone is upset about is a bandaid on top of the lack of decent storage options. For the climate folks, the anti-bitcoin folks, whoever disagrees with what I've said here: Fix the storage issue and everything gets magically better. Good luck, it's a very hard problem with very nasty environmental impacts, I'm rooting for you.
- gcr 3y agoAlternatively, a better option: as a human need, maybe energy production shouldn’t _strictly_ follow market incentives and shouldn’t be _solely_ governed by supply/demand dynamics
- wc- 3y agoTotally agree! But this isn't the reality we live in today and you have proposed a potentially better option with no ideas on how to achieve it. What you need to focus on is how we can grow a better grid while achieving prepaid usage levels, guaranteed usage levels, and on-demand response. These factors are what lead to a more efficient, more climate friendly, more better etc etc grid.
- thetwentyone 3y agoCurrently also predicting more demand than capacity today: https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/supplyanddemand https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/supplyanddemand
- Ajedi32 3y agoSo based on that[1], it looks like the issue is that solar and wind capacity is forecasted to dip right around the time demand peaks? And there's basically no battery storage available (4,835 MW of maximum storage output vs the 61,549 MW maximum combined output for wind+solar)? [1]: https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards
- FrustratedMonky 3y agoJust a few months ago on HN there was a thread discussing the upcoming summer. Was surprised just how many 'free-market' advocates came out to say how great things were, how the market has created additional supply, and all this was just lib panic. They are paying 'crypto-miners' to temporarily stop running? That is absurd. So I could make money just by moving a mining operation to Texas, and wait for a shutdown. How much failure does it take to realize some regulation is good. It benefits everyone.
- vel0city 3y agoThe market did create a ton of supply. It added so much supply electric contracts went as low as $0.10/kWh including delivery costs at the start of the summer. It added several state's worth of supply. Its just people demanded even more with 7x more growth in demand than historical.
- wonderwonder 3y agoThis is politics in a nutshell. People keep voting for the same politicians so they keep the same problems. Power infrastructure is poor? Keep voting for the same people that made it that way. Lots of violent crime in your city? Keep voting for the people that release criminals back into society immediately. Politics is so binary and broken in this country that we are just making fixable issues into permanent hardships. This is a Dem and Rep problem and more importantly the end result of a 2 party system. That and corruption all the way down.
- briffle 3y agoI understand your point, but if I let the $OTHER party get control, they will work against my beliefs on Abortion and Guns, which are the only 2 beliefs that the parties have together taught me matters...
- bcrosby95 3y agoHave you been under a rock the last few years? It's way more than just abortion and guns these days.
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- wonderwonder 3y agoYou are 100% correct. Thats what we are missing. Additional parties that perhaps hold party A's thoughts on Abortion and Guns but maybe share party B's thoughts on immigration or health care or whatever. The country really needs choice. I'm a swing voter, I vote both R and D. To the best of my knowledge I have never met another one in real life. I know they do exist though. I find myself voting one party at the state level and another at the federal level. Both parties have stances I agree and disagree with. I would love a party that does the same.
- 3y ago
- tiffanyh 3y agoEV's This will become a bigger issue for all as more EV's gain adoption. And with the reluctance to use nuclear, there's not many reliable options for clean energy.
- briffle 3y agoDo you have any supporting evidence for that? becuase i have seen EV's power entire homes when the power is cut, which kind of sounds like the opposite. I have also seen most 'smart' chargers take demand into account when charging up your car.
- vel0city 3y agoAdding an EV to my garage didn't do any of this. It charges when there's plenty of energy around.
- pengaru 3y agoEVs might become a large part of the grid's energy storage, smoothing out these conditions of solar/wind shortages. If ERCOT is paying bitcoin miners to not mine, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to pay EV owners for some storage capacity and cooperative charge scheduling.
- tiffanyh 3y agoERCOT pays even home users to use LESS electricity even during non-emergency situations. It's way cheaper to give incentive pricing to consumers to use less energy, than it is to build an entirely new power plant.
- r00fus 3y agoMassive solar deployment is a great clean energy source to add to the existing plants. However, it isn't a solid baseline source without storage/batteries. This is where EVs can help if they have V2G aka bidirectional charging capabilities. Nuclear will take years if not decades to solve the problems but solar can be deployed in months or a year with the right incentives.
- backendanon 3y agoAccording to my Google foo, around 1000 people per day have been moving to Texas in the last three years alone. Put anywhere between a half million to three quarters of a million additional people on the power grid in a three year span and the grid is bound to have issues. Also, really like how the majority of the comments sound like Reddit /r/politics's far left, adult man child, ignorant insights.
- philwelch 3y ago> The call came, the group said, as heat drove energy demand up and wind power was forecasted to be low. Renewable energy is not reliable or stable enough to be as large of a share of the power grid as it already is. ERCOT is running into this first because it’s a smaller grid and has less margin for error, but the other two US grids are going to have the same problem in time.
- tr3ntg 3y agoI live in Texas and we’ve been dancing on the edge of energy availability for weeks now. If you glance at ERCOT’s public graphs that estimate energy supply and demand, every evening we’re barely eeking by. From what I’ve heard, this should be improving daily as temperatures ease, but I guess not. Surprising that we had an emergency episode in September rather than two weeks ago. If Texas can’t supply enough energy in the summer, I have no hope for what our future winters will look like.
- gcr 3y agoisn’t it normal for supply to only barely exceed demand? That’s what’s most efficient. Out of curiosity, what did those graphs look like to you on previous years?
- tr3ntg 3y agoI didn’t live here in previous years, but I think it’s abnormal that multiple days in a week demand is estimated to be above supply. And yes, it’s most efficient to keep supply and demand close. But based on this article and our recent trends, it seems like there’s some trouble / concern with unlocking the extra energy needed to supply everyone lately.
- vel0city 3y agoIts also historically not normal for demand to hit >85GW nearly every day.
- Beached 3y agoI feel like TX is doing more to push for energy independence than any other single organization in the country. the grid incompetence, and governments unwillingness to resolve, is the best driver for household battery and solar I can this of. I don't live in TX, but if I didn't have 1day battery storage, coupled with solar capability to charge that battery to full in a single day, with a generator as backup, every ounce of effort would be going to that.
- Aloha 3y agoAs a Texan, I think whats going on in Texas, perhaps controversially is what happens when you have an over reliance on solar and wind as primary power sources. Even in Texas (where wind is basically ever-present) there are times when the wind does not blow. I think wind and solar are great, and we should build more, but you also need a sizable amount of thermal generation (preferably nuclear) to provide for base load. I dont think thermal can be replaced readily with gas turbine, battery, pumped storage, or other forms of rapid spin up equipment. I have the somewhat controversial opinion that things like bitcoin are useful because they create static demand, and by doing so make the excess generation from wind and solar economical, thereby keeping the spot price in the grid high enough that thermal generation is still cost effective to build and operate - I dont think we should be paying them to shut down, they should just be disconnected wholesale from the grid during periods of ultra high demand as a condition of their interconnection to it.
- vel0city 3y agoThis big dip here in TFA is probably because of some thermal plant going down unexpectedly. The other close day this summer was also because of thermal plants supposedly not being able to come online due to extra maintenance.
- Aloha 3y agoThe real issue in texas is not enough thermal generation capacity - I'd prefer it be nuclear, but right now its gas, and we dont have enough based on the states growth.
- throwawayapples 3y agoUnpopular opinion (and so strange that a red state like Texas did it this way), but: Texas is far too dependent on wind power, fossil fuel plants (even natural gas!) being shut down at the behest of the federal govt, and definitely not enough nuclear, although those can take quite a few years to come online.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoRelated thread from today: Texas paid Bitcoin miner Riot $31.7M to shut down in August https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37418866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37418866