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The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.
by cpursley 3y ago
The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars.
They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.
- tristor 3y agoI hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.
- stanski 3y agoI assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.
- Digory 3y agoThe feds have mandated a screen (for backup cameras). Then the makers try to minimize costs by having the screen do everything. I’d like to say I’d pay more for real buttons, but I’d never buy a new car.
- ghaff 3y agoIt's probably true that once you (more or less) need a screen for a decent backup camera and most people like a screen for at least GPS, it must be pretty tempting to at least think about what physical buttons can reasonably be eliminated given that the touchscreen is a given. And I do think a lot of designs go too far.
- dylan604 3y ago>and most people like a screen for at least GPS personal anecdotes, but the vast majority of me being a passenger to someone else's driving, they all used their mobile device for GPS. even the couple of cars i owned that had a nav system, the GPS came from the mobile device. it required their app to be installed to input the destination, making the internal unit just a second screen for your mobile.
- ghaff 3y agoI use CarPlay if I'm actually navigating, not the built-in Garmin. But it's an improvement over looking at the phone awkwardly clamped to an air vent. I suspect most people don't use most of the native manufacturer apps even if they sort of need to provide them. Aside from rarely changing some settings, my touchscreen is mostly just a screen.
- lief79 3y agoMy dad, who's a fairly recently retired techy, is the only exception I know. I'm assuming it's based on perceived safety and less need to take his eyes off the road. Granted, he took a long time getting a smart phone because they weren't allowed in his secured office, while dumb phones with no camera where allowed longer. On the other hand, he's also automated his home (a few times with updates), so it's really the one weird outlier.
- Kirby64 3y agoThat's because in car GPS tech has historically been absolutely atrocious. An example: 2008-2012ish Toyota Camrys had a GPS system that used a DVD for map data. Not only was it out of date immediately (and cost $150 per new DVD from the dealer), it was insanely slow. Nowadays, there's a few companies that actually seem to do a decent job of GPS in the car itself: Mercedes has a good tech in their new EVs that seems smooth. Android automotive (not auto) cars have built in Google maps such as Polestar, the new Cadillac EVs, and some other Chevy products do well. Although it's not much different than just having an android phone with android auto. And, of course, Teslas own system which is all inhouse. There's little reason to use a phone in the traditional phone holders if you own one of those cars.
- 3y ago
- rootusrootus 3y agoThe backup camera screen compliance was solved early on by just putting a 2-3 inch screen in the regular rear view mirror. There's no legal requirement to make it a big screen in the dash, that is 100% a design choice by the manufacturers unrelated to the backup camera.
- HumblyTossed 3y ago> I assume it's a cost thing. Is it though? It's not like they have to reinvent the button each time. Buttons that last a decade or three have already been designed.
- ilikehurdles 3y agoAuto margins are ridiculously thin, and if a manufacturer can trim 17 cents off a car’s manufacturing cost by removing a button, they usually will.
- nojvek 3y agoYou have a source for that? I wish dealership margins were that thin. Cars are much more expensive post pandemic than pre-pandemic.
- ilikehurdles 3y agohttps://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios.php?ind=404 https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios... has some good data, as you see we’re talking mid to low single digits net, low teens gross. To your point, this is an increase that happened during the pandemic, interestingly. Dealership margins, as I recall, are 10-20%, also not great. Mfg margins have come up during the pandemic, interestingly, but historically have been very low[1]: > While estimated aggregate industry operating profit margins are 6 to 7 percent (Exhibit 1), large variations in profitability exists across companies. For instance, some European niche, luxury companies make double-digit margins more akin to those of high-tech players, while mass-market (or value-focused) OEMs make 4 to 5 percent. [1]: https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automotive%20and%20Assembly/Our%20Insights/Down%20but%20not%20out%20How%20automakers%20can%20create%20value%20in%20an%20uncertain%20future/Down-but-not-out-how-automakers-can-create-value-VF.ashx https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/McKinsey/Industries/Automot...
- wyre 3y agoYour post under says margins of 6%? 17 cents over a 6% margin on a $30,000+ purchase would be like McDonalds charging for extra salt on their fries. I’d guess it’s an ease of design and manufacturing decision when you can eliminate so many buttons so easily.
- Phrenzy 3y agoI learned that very thing setting up my home automation. I was originally planning on designing and printing some sort of button arrangement. But I ended up buying a bunch of cheap Walmart tablets. Easy to set up and keep updated. But... I'm not driving 70mph when I'm trying to dim the living room lights.
- nawgz 3y agoI took advantage of the used car market to upgrade my 2021 Subaru to a 2024 (same car, better trim), there's actually MORE physical controls in the 2024 - hope isn't entirely lost!
- dylan604 3y agoHow did you find a 2024 model car on the used car market?
- alwaysbeconsing 3y agoI think they mean that the used car market gave them a good sale price on their 2021.
- dylan604 3y agoah, after re-reading, i can see that as well
- darkclouds 3y agoVolvo, the vehicle company that started out making bearings, used to make a big selling point in the 80's about their knobs, switches and buttons were good enough for people wearing gloves in the middle of the Scandinavian winters and intuitively placed for drivers to use without taking their eyes off the road. Saab were the same, but fast forward to today and the lunatics are calling the shots. Even the flappy paddle gearboxes still have a weakness, namely they dont have a clutch peddle to dip when the traction control/esp decides to have a nightmare and ends up trying to cause accidents, where oil, ice or snow removes the grip and temporarily freewheeling is the fastest way to get the vehicle back under control before reengaging the drive system. And these tablets like displays ruin the night vision, I actually liked the old Saab displays where you could press a button and it switched the lights off to loads of buttons and gauges for night driving. Cars have got noticeably worse with these tablet displays.
- kulahan 3y agoIn every single car I've been in, the touchscreens are optional and you have some sort of knob you can use. This requires memorizing where things are in the software, however.
- rolobio 3y agoTouch-screens can be updated later, meaning you can release the broken version first, then get it working after the money starts rolling in. Knobs would require they get it right the first time. The horror! I will never buy a car that forces me to navigate a menu to turn on my windshield wipers...
- dpkirchner 3y agoI'm "looking forward" to having manufacturers change the location of virtual buttons every few updates.
- deathtrader666 3y agoAndroid Auto has already changed its home row buttons three times since 2019..
- cpursley 3y agoProblem is, they don’t actually upgrade the touchscreens. At least not after the first couple years. And most consumers don’t/won’t know how to upgrade them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sergiosgc 3y agoAs an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good! Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch. With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having half a million km driven on manual transmissions.
- o0banky0o 3y agolol, we've always bitched about automatics in the US too
- ghaff 3y agoI assume a lot of it is a retro thing like film and vinyl. I donated my 20 year old Honda Del Sol two-seater stick shortly before the pandemic. It had a lot of miles on it and, with no commute, I just wasn't getting the use out of it to make it worth keeping. It was fun but there's no way I'd buy a stick today even if I were to have a "fun" car.
- cpursley 3y agoManuals suck in traffic. Americans sit in a lot of traffic. And I say this as somebody who loves manuals (I’m an amateur race car driver).
- ImprovedSilence 3y agothis was always a key point from people who drove automatics but claimed to like manuals. i daily drove a manual in some of the worst traffic the US has to offer. but so what, guess what else sucks in traffic? Automatics!! when you're stuck in traffic, everything sucks, so you might as well drive something thats enjoyable the rest of the time.
- mda 3y agoAutomatics suck less. Why am I constantly trying to change gears of the transmission system?
- EGreg 3y agoI would loooooove if a Cadillac Ciel convertible from Pebble Beach 2011 came out, with the suicide doors, no touchscreens, etc. Who’s with me? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Ciel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Ciel The brands don’t often listen to their customers, all of whom clamored for this car ever since it was shown. It only appeared in the “Entourage” movie and it’s a beaut. Nary a single bad review on the entire Internet, but tons of people begging Chrysler to release it and sites devoted to pretending it came out. Car guys — what is the closest car one can get to this today, in all of human history? Go to Cuba and get some gas-guzzling illegal convertible with tailfins? And please — no recordings of our conversations and sex in the car so they can send it off to others!
- dylan604 3y ago>Car guys — what is the closest car one can get to this today, in all of human history? Go to Cuba and get some gas-guzzling illegal convertible with tailfins? Maybe not Cuba, but there's a new car restoration series on whichever streaming platform, I can't keep up, that's located in El Paso, TX. They go across the border and buy older cars, then import into the US.
- EGreg 3y agoJust now, I have found the closest I could find: https://megaevluxury.com/rolls-royce-ghost-convertible/ https://megaevluxury.com/rolls-royce-ghost-convertible/ Anything like this but cheaper?
- globular-toast 3y agoI think a lot of people miss the obvious reason: it's cheaper. People seem to think it's some misguided attempt to make things better but really it's just that they've identified a way to cut costs.
- barrysteve 3y agoThey are humorously cheaper. A friend's kia ev6 parked up, I had an instant flashback to the electric taxi car Johnny Cab from Shwarznegger's Total Recall. The movie car has this really weak sounding electric motor whirr/whine, just like the EVs.
- SEJeff 3y agoFwiw, teslas support pretty much everything via voice. You just press the right button on the wheel and say what you want it to do. I’m not disagreeing with your dislike for touch screens, but Tesla can do literally almost everything hands free using voice if that’s an option.
- _ea1k 3y agoI'm mostly fine with the Tesla approach. The few tactile controls are basically enough for me, especially with the last few updates effectively adding more. However, the voice controls have been basically useless for me. I wouldn't want to depend on them.
- SEJeff 3y agoFair. I’ve had a really good experience with the voice controls since I read a “cheat sheet” someone posted with common control commands.
- gonehome 3y ago[flagged]
- ragnese 3y ago> It reminds me of the complaining in the early iPhone days about lack of a physical keyboard. I totally get that. People will always complain about some new design fad, whether it's actually good or not. However... we're talking about heavy vehicles traveling at high speed with humans inside. You simply don't have to takes your eyes off the road as long with tactile controls as you do with touch screens.
- fiddlerwoaroof 3y agoHaving driven a Tesla for three years now, I basically don’t use the screen while driving. The controls I actually use are on the steering wheel or column (cruise control settings, music control, turn signals) and I have never had a significant issue with leaving wipers, lights and climate on auto
- rootusrootus 3y agoI mostly agree, but it's that time of year again when I question my life choices. The rain has started, and suddenly I'm reminded how stupid the wipers can be. Elon keeps promising over and over that they're just about to fix them, but it never happens. It absolutely will be a factor in whether I buy another Tesla.
- sergiosgc 3y agoMy only experience with touchscreen cars is with the Model 3. You don't need the screen for operational stuff needed for driving. Off the top of my head, these are all on the steering wheel/stalks: - Blinkers - High beams - Gearbox - Climate control temperature up/down - Cruise control enable/disable, speed change - Media volume, media next/previous - Phone call answer/hangup/volume - Windshield wipers On the next Model 3 version, they are moving the gearbox controls over to the screen. I have my doubts about that, but I'll complain once I have driven one.
- guestbest 3y agoI think they put in the touchscreens because it makes internationalization easier. No physical labels and OTA updates. Personally, I don’t think digital internationalization is good for the driver since it appeals to the lowest common denominator of interface while adding another expensive component to replace in case of damage.
- w0m 3y agoI wouldn't even go that far: It's less wires to run. Yea; my cars interface has had 3 radical redesigns since I got it (which I mostly appreciate), but think of how much easier to build a Model 3 is when it foregoes 95% of a cars normal physical buttons for a single screen.
- marcosdumay 3y agoIt shouldn't be expensive to make an I2C smart-switch that allows you to place as many buttons as you want on a single set of 3 wires (or 4 if you want a simpler circuit).
- owenmarshall 3y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus Modern cars do it with two wires.
- mschaef 3y agoLIN bus also https://www.csselectronics.com/pages/lin-bus-protocol-intro-basics https://www.csselectronics.com/pages/lin-bus-protocol-intro-...
- marcosdumay 3y agoHum, it's terminated with resistors on both sides, so the boxes need power. That makes it 4 wires. I imagine there's very little difference on cost between 3 or 4 wires. But the number of nodes described is not really compatible with making each button its own node.
- thorin 3y agoIs this a US thing? I recently bought a reasonably high end Skoda (which I think would be made in the same factory as VW, SEAT etc). It has a big touch screen in the centre console, but that's really only used for the radio / media / phone calls etc. This is all non essential stuff and so I can deal with it being on a screen. Everything relating to driving is an old skool analogue control. A couple of things I don't like is the pull switch for parking brake, it's the first car I've had without an old skool handbreak, it feels unnecessary, but ergonomically it's fine. Also it's a key less ignition with a button to start. Again I don't see why this benefits me, but I can deal with it. I do worry about having a smart key though as I'm often on the water kayaking/surfing but it's been ok in a waterproof case so far.
- Loughla 3y agoNo, it's the same. You can control hidden things from the touch screen (like light length when opening the door for example) but most cars still have tactile nobs for everything outside of radio/bluetooth/media. There are some cars that have touchscreen for essential things like climate control, but those are absolutely in the minority.
- brewdad 3y agoThing is, those cars with touch screen climate controls will let you set a temperature target much like your home thermostat. Once you figure out the right temperature, you don't really ever have to change it. I haven't changed the temperature in my car for months. I'll probably adjust it as summer turns to fall but it will be a one or two degree change one time and then I won't touch it again unless my kid drove the car and messed with it. Putting things like windshield wipers or headlights on a touch screen would be a nightmare though.
- ghaff 3y agoMy newish car does have buttons to control the temperature and fan. But, yeah, I don't really change it. I do use defroster settings in the winter.
- 3y ago
- neogodless 3y agoWe just bought a 2023 Mazda CX-5 Select for $29k. No touchscreens in the whole car! And no dealer markup - we paid slightly under MSRP. But... it is certainly satellite connected (you can manage locks, windows, etc. from your phone, as well as remote start). Wish it was included in this privacy investigation. I'd love to know more about what they do with what they know about our car and how we use it.
- cpursley 3y agoI think Mazda is one of the exceptions. Plus, they have great driving dynamics in general. Only thing stopping me from getting a new Miata is all the dangerous bro-dozers on the road.
- EricE 3y agoMeh - with a Miata you just zip out of their way. Miata owner since 1998 and I even survived commuting for 22 years in Northern VA. Life is too short - get and enjoy a Miata!
- hibikir 3y agoI was also a Miata owner: An NB Madzaspeed. A lot of fun to drive, and it's nimbleness saved me from a couple of crazy accidents. Unfortunately the car has one major weakness: It doesn't matter if the car is very agile if you are surrounded by vehicles with far worse characteristics. The car was rammed 3 times in 12 years, either on the side or the back, by people in brodozers that either couldn't see it on the side, or had crappy braking performance. The person in front of me does an emergency-level stop, and with the Miata I stop too, 3 feet before I hit them. 3 seconds later The brodozer behind me, however, has failed to brake, and launches the Miata forward. I walk out fine, the car in front of me gets very minor damage, as I was stopped and with my foot on the brake pedal, but the Miata's frame is bent, and the repair estimate is over 5k. So yeah, hell is other cars
- cpursley 3y ago
- tiffanyh 3y agoDo you ever use your mobile phone while driving? Call, talk, text, maps, etc. How is it any more dangerous than how a typical person uses their phone today while driving? For safety: all common systems are accessible on most steering wheels (e.g. radio, etc) so that your hands never have to leave the steering wheel.
- sudobash1 3y agoNo, where I live it is illegal to use a phone for most of those (without hands-free methods). When occasionally I need a map with directions, I load it up and set the phone in place before leaving, so I never need to touch it. Sometimes I ask my phone ("Hey Google") to read my texts if I am on a long drive. But other than that, I never use it. This is the ideal (and again, the law in many places). I take your point in that the built-in touchscreen is no worse for people who already text and drive, but we absolutely should be aiming for better. I certainly don't want to be forced to use a touchscreen for changing the AC settings, defogging the windshield, etc...
- scott_w 3y agoIn the UK it’s illegal to touch your phone while driving (with some exceptions around hands free kits and payments). Even for things that are legal, the Highway Code is clear that you do not touch your radio while driving. I’d presume it would take a dim view of playing with other non-critical functions. So no, just because it’s on your wheel, that doesn’t make it “safe.”
- Engineering-MD 3y agoIt’s illegal to hold not touch. It is specifically legal to use your phone (in a safe manner) in say a wind screen mount [0]. [0] https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
- scott_w 3y agoThat’s why I mentioned hands free.
- gumby 3y agoI recently rented a cheap sedan and was shocked: there was a small screen for carplay that didn't interfere with the dashboard and all the other controls (volume, climate, etc) had hard buttons. After a couple of days of driving I could do everything without looking away from the road. Meanwhile the expensive cars are frightening to drive as you need to look away from the road to do anything.
- gnicholas 3y agoMy understanding is that expensive cars have relatively good voice recognition that allows the driver to easily access functions that might be otherwise buried deep in a menu. This doesn't solve the discoverability issue, but it's good from an eyes-on-the-road perspective. I think it's also used as an excuse for why you need to pay a monthly fee for internet access.
- gumby 3y agoI have cars with these services and in my experience they don't work. Even siri to carplay doesn't work very well. The cars are too noisy to even use the car's mic and speakers to make a call, much less talk to a robot. My experience: Mercedes, Acura and various random rental cars. With a rental I always try to make a call to see if it's gotten any better.
- Pxtl 3y agoI drive a Prius and while the actual implementation of the touchscreen leaves a lot to be desired (dodgy software and usual issues with obsolescence), I do like the way it splits between touchscreen and buttons. Buttons: all car controls, audio volume and selection, temperature. Touchscreen: GPS, setting radio presets, changing climate mode. Now, it's not perfect -- there are some climate options I'd like on buttons. But in general that's pretty good. The big flaw is the lack of upgradeability. It felt a decade old, stylistically, when it was new, and it will never get newer. You can't even pop in a new car stereo to replace the whole thing anymore - and it's a massive chunk of the dash. And has no support for Android Auto.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- recursive 3y agoI'm part of the market segment that demands them. I didn't have an opinion, but then I lived with one for a year. I don't think I could go back.