18 ms·
The Federal Helium reserve is for sale
- Caligatio 3y agoTom Scott did a video on the National Helium Reserve a few years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOy8Xjaa_o8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOy8Xjaa_o8
- aylmao 3y agoHuh, the video does mention they were in the process of privatizing it (at around 4:10 [1]) planning to be "stepping out of the helium activity and transferring it to private entities" by 2021 (guess it got delayed due to COVID?). The Wikipedia page for the Helium Act of 1925 [3], which created the National Helium Reserve, does mention USA was the only important source of helium at the time, and amongst other things the act banned Helium exports. Given the rarity of Helium, this sounds like a good idea. This privatization effort seems to be part of the Helium Privatization Act of 1996 [2], passed under Bill Clinton, and I couldn't quickly find any reasoning for its implementation (perhaps I'm not Googling the right question?). I wonder why they decided it'd be better to privatize it, considering the USA (at least as of 2018) still accounted for over half of worldwide helium exports [4]. It does still sound like a strategic and rare resource worth keeping under tight control, IMO. [1] https://youtu.be/mOy8Xjaa_o8?si=hMt24B9FMyy-TSBI&t=250 https://youtu.be/mOy8Xjaa_o8?si=hMt24B9FMyy-TSBI&t=250 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Privatization_Act_of_1996 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Privatization_Act_of_19... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Act_of_1925 [4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352484722000877 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235248472...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cogman10 3y agoClinton famously said "the era of big government is over" [1] I can absolutely see privatizing a reserve as being one of many bills meant to cut back on the size and scope of the government. [1] https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/other/sotu.html https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/other/sotu.ht...
- plussed_reader 3y agoFits with erosion of regulation under Gingrich; veto override was on the table and Clinton capitulated, like with the telecom act of that year.
- nradov 3y agoPresident Clinton supported the Helium Privatization Act of 1996. This wasn't a veto override situation. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-signing-the-helium-privatization-act-1996 https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-signing-...
- plussed_reader 3y agoMeh; timed de-regulation meat for red america leading up to November 96 election.
- pontifier 3y agoThis is the entire system including the facility, hundreds of miles of pipeline, helium rights for many helium producing wells, existing storage and delivery contracts, and 800 million cubic feet of helium. A stockpile of 1 billion cubic feet of helium only is for sale as a separate lot: https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/property/a0Xt0000005z684EAA/federally-owned-crude-helium-gas-only https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/property/a0Xt0000005z684EAA/feder...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mpreda 3y ago> and 800 million cubic feet of helium I don't understand why you'd measure the amount of a gas in volume units (e.g. cubic feet) given that any gas is "elastic" in volume, i.e. can take pretty much any volume depending on the pressure.
- ceejayoz 3y agohttps://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/3195.11 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/3195.11 > Standard cubic foot (SCF) means the volume of gaseous helium occupying one cubic foot at a pressure of 14.7 psia and a temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit. One liter of liquid helium is equivalent to 26.63 scf of gaseous helium. One U.S. gallon of liquid helium is equivalent to 100.8 scf of gaseous helium. One pound of liquid helium is equivalent to 96.72 scf of gaseous helium. If BLM approves, you may use appropriate gaseous equivalents of volumes of helium mixtures different from these figures.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- p_j_w 3y agoIf it’s anything like SCUBA tanks, then the 800M cu ft is specified at 1 atm at room temperature. It’s a actually an intuitive way to express how much gas you’re getting. Specifying it by N would be borderline incomprehensible to most people.
- 3y ago
- westcort 3y agoIf this isn’t a sign of the collapse, I don’t know what is.
- delecti 3y agoThe federal government has been trying to sell it off for almost 30 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
- westcort 3y agoMeanwhile, patients need 6 weeks of physical therapy before they can get an MRI as a direct result of a lack of helium. Even diagnostic MRIs in which PT is not indicated. The government trying to sell a crucial asset necessary for healthcare technologies is a sign that the government is not able to take care of domestic affairs. They may have been trying to sell it before, but the lack of leadership on a critical resource like this is a bad sign.
- EA-3167 3y ago> Meanwhile, patients need 6 weeks of physical therapy before they can get an MRI as a direct result of a lack of helium. Even diagnostic MRIs in which PT is not indicated. I've never heard of this, can you link to something discussing this?
- SoftTalker 3y agoDue to the cost of an MRI procedure, most insurers will require 6 weeks of PT/rehab efforts on an injury before covering the cost of an MRI. I guess GP is attributing the cost of the MRI to the helium required to cool the magnet, but I'm not sure that's a big fraction of the amortized cost for a single procedure -- a reference would be good.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y agoA counter-reference from a Jan 2023 newsletter from the Radiological Society of North America - https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-mri https://www.rsna.org/news/2023/january/helium-shortage-for-m... "Despite news reports in October that the world is running out of helium, clinical MRI units throughout the U.S. were and remain unaffected." I wouldn't be surprised if some patients are given bad info by either clinic or insurer. Blaming a global shortage, real or perceived, points the patient's emotional response away from the provider.
- roschdal 3y ago[flagged]
- stjo 3y agoDo you actually have an airship startup? What are the challenges you are facing? Do you need software engineers or funding?
- function_seven 3y agoDoesn't need a runway, that's for sure.
- tonymillion 3y agoThe great thing about an Airship startup is that there’s no worries about “up and to the right” growth. It’s mostly just up, and any direction you want to go.
- throwawee 3y agoZeppelins are just a bubble.
- gumby 3y agoI guess they haven’t yet realized that those room temperature superconductors were a flop.
- arrowsmith 3y agoUm, doesn't the lack of room temperature superconductors mean we need more helium, not less?
- gumby 3y agoExactly, so we still need the strategic reserve. They shouldn't sell it off.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wly_cdgr 3y agoQuit making jokes, y'all. There's nothing funny about this.
- koolba 3y agoNot even the thought of it going to the highest pitched bidder?
- bandyaboot 3y agoAnd so pitch inequality gets ever larger. *shakes head•
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- geysersam 3y agoAre you also in favor of public monopoly on other natural resources such as rare earth metals and oil?
- jquery 3y agoI don't even agree with private oil being a thing, natural resources should belong to the public.
- check89 3y ago[dead]
- hooverd 3y agoYes.
- anigbrowl 3y agoYes
- omniglottal 3y agoYes.
- webnrrd2k 3y agoThere is also property for sale in Menlo Park, as well as San Dimas and Laguna Niguel. https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/searchproperty?state=CA&type=ALL https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/searchproperty?state=CA&type=ALL
- cossatot 3y agoThe Menlo Park property is the former US Geological Survey campus, which has been moved to the NASA Ames campus in Mountain View because the USGS couldn't make rent to the GSA. It's a nice campus although some of the buildings could use some superficial renovation. It's got a lot of lab space.
- thomasjudge 3y agoSeems like Stanford might want to buy this
- dredmorbius 3y agoUSGS moving both lower on the floodplain in light of global warming and sea level rise, and to far less seismically-stable land (bay fill as opposed to bedrock, far greater liquefaction risk) is ... arch.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gustavus 3y agoThe wikipedia on this provides some context > The National Helium Reserve, also known as the Federal Helium Reserve, is a strategic reserve of the United States, which once held over 1 billion cubic meters (about 170,000,000 kg)[a] of helium gas. The helium is stored at the Cliffside Storage Facility about 12 miles (19 km) northwest of Amarillo, Texas, in a natural geologic gas storage formation, the Bush Dome[2] reservoir. The reserve was established with the enactment of the Helium Act of 1925. The strategic supply provisioned the noble gas for airships, and in the 1950s became an important source of coolant during the Cold War and Space Race. I for one am in favor of keeping it as a national resource in order to prevent the development of a zeppelin capability gap between us and the enemy. EDIT: I appreciate the rebuttals below, apparently Helium is important in the usage and production of MRI, IC fabrication, and cooling nuclear reactors. Pushes a reconsideration of the sell off, plus the possible resurgance of steampunk.
- skywal_l 3y agoHelium is not even the best lighter than air gas. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjBgEkbnX2I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjBgEkbnX2I
- ftxbro 3y ago> in the 1950s became an important source of coolant during the Cold War and Space Race they are saying that like there isn't a cold war or space race in the year 2023
- parineum 3y agoOr that helium isn't important to them.
- SoftTalker 3y agoHelium is useful as a coolant in nuclear reactors. If we get back into nuclear power in a big way, we might want a good supply of it.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
- runeofdoom 3y agoWhy is it for sale?
- nathanfig 3y agoHad to scroll past a ton of doomsayers and jokes to find this obvious question. I'd like to understand the decision before speculating the meaning.
- achates 3y agoThe top voted comment is always some variation of "capitalism bad".
- VygmraMGVl 3y ago10 years ago, Congress decided we needed to transition off of it. Large amounts of the stockpile were sold off from 2013-2018 and this is the final part of the plan. https://www.blm.gov/programs/energy-and-minerals/helium/federal-helium-program https://www.blm.gov/programs/energy-and-minerals/helium/fede...
- nathanfig 3y agoThanks!
- hypercube33 3y agoTransition off of it? Dont we need it for superconducting coolant and some other things?
- bonestamp2 3y agoYes. MRI machines need it, although I guess that kind of falls into the superconductor category. But I call that use case out because it's probably a good idea to have the government, or some trusted caretaker, look after at least two strategic stockpiles.
- westurner 3y ago
- scrlk 3y agohttps://www.innovationnewsnetwork.com/helium-shortage-4-0-what-caused-it-and-when-will-it-end/29255/ https://www.innovationnewsnetwork.com/helium-shortage-4-0-wh... Seems a bit short sighted to close the helium reserve and sell it off. The last 3 years have taught the value of having some slack in the supply chain.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Symmetry 3y agoHopefully however gets these facilities will buy helium when its cheap and sell it when its expensive to provide just that sort of slack in the supply chain. My understanding is that strategic helium stockpile was just to make sure we have enough helium for our the US's use in the event of a war.
- dwighttk 3y agoMaybe dollar tree can start selling helium balloons again
- daneel_w 3y agoBut why? Have they found new gigantic pockets of natural gas rich with helium? Or some scientific breakthrough allowing it to be produced radiologically?
- lo_zamoyski 3y agoIndeed: why? I suspect the answer is likely to be something worryingly banal, like "we're in debt" (or, "private interest knows a guy who wants to make some money"). Economies run on state-sponsored usury don't tend to last.
- notatoad 3y ago>I suspect the answer is likely to be something worryingly banal, like "we're in debt" (or, "private interest knows a guy who wants to make some money") wikipedia has the answers. tl;dr it sounds like both of those things: the reserve was in debt and was depressing the market for helium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
- jquery 3y agoUgh, it is criminal how short-sighted this is. Helium is not easy to replace nor easy to store long term, it's the perfect application for government ownership of a commodity, just in case we need it.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoAbsolutely. And "in case we need it" is for stuff like cryogenics (e.g. MRI machines), and deep sea diving, not bullshit like party balloons.
- cvoss 3y agoActually, the existence of the reserve was not depressing the market. The sell off of the reserve, which was mandated in 1996 and began in 2005, was depressing the market. The sale was modified in 2013 to try to relieve the market flooding issue. The present auction is the final piece of the sale.
- Brian_K_White 3y agoI don't understand the zeppelin jokes. Are we really this ignorant?
- flangola7 3y agoWhat are we ignorant of? Airships of the non-inflammable variety use helium.
- dr-detroit 3y ago[dead]
- orra 3y agoThat's why Excelsior is filled with safe, natural helium. https://archer.fandom.com/wiki/Skytanic https://archer.fandom.com/wiki/Skytanic
- Brian_K_White 3y agoSo what? Apparently what you're ignorant of is that airships are not why it's important to preserve a store of helium.
- hooverd 3y agoWould you rather rigid airships be flammable?
- Brian_K_White 3y agoAre you saying zeppelins are an especially important facility for the military? (I'm sure there are uses, but only the way there are uses for anything). I am saying it's ignorant to imply that the helium isn't important because it was originally secured for zeppelins.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- posnet 3y agoAccording to the GSA themselves, the value of the helium there is ~$100,000,000 [0] though that is 2019 prices, I believe it has gone up since then. Apparently for diving purposes it's as high as $2.0 per cubic foot. [1] [0]: https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-helium.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-helium.pdf [1]: https://gue.com/blog/the-price-of-helium/ https://gue.com/blog/the-price-of-helium/
- jquery 3y agoThat's hilariously off, much like how the "market value" of rare earth asteroids is in the $trillions... due to a shortage that wouldn't exist if we could mine said asteroids... the value of the helium is much, much higher than $100M.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tristor 3y agoDepending on who you ask, the value of the crude helium there is around $300M to $360M. The $2-$3/cf for refined helium isn't really that relevant, since what is included is unrefined, if it were refined it'd be worth many billions.
- westurner 3y agoWhat is it worth as isotopes He3 and He4; e.g. for Nuclear Fusion, superfluidity and superconductivity experiments, and medical imaging that probably can be done without Helium?
- thorncorona 3y agoNot much because the total market cap isn’t high for isotopes..
- westurner 3y agoHelion Energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helion_Energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helion_Energy : > They are developing a magneto-inertial fusion technology to produce helium-3 and fusion power via aneutronic fusion, [2][3] which could produce low-cost clean electric energy using a fuel that is derived exclusively from water. [4] Here's the part of the Real Engineering video where it is explained how 3He and 4He Helium isotopes are fusion byproducts and fuel used to generate electricity with nuclear fusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38&t=12m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38&t=12m40s (From "When Will Fusion Energy Light Our Homes?" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34582798 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34582798) Doesn't this new nuclear fusion process also change the valuation of the Tritium in [Fukushima Daiichi,] heavy water? Why would you dump money into the ocean?
- anovikov 3y agoAverage concentration of helium in natural gas is 0.05%, anywhere from 0.01% to 7%. U.S. proven reserves of natural gas contain over 10 billion cubic meters of helium even when simple extraction methods (that capture about 1/3 of it), are used. Problem is exaggerated.
- joelthelion 3y agoMost of that natural gas should stay under the ground if we want to somewhat mitigate climate change...
- blooalien 3y agoNow we just gotta convince our rich overlords that life is more important than more money for the rich. That shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, yeah?
- bonestamp2 3y agoThat's part of it. But electricity is still expensive, so I don't see a lot of people wanting to switch their natural gas heating and cooking to electricity anytime soon. We need a massive investment in nuclear and solar to bring down the cost of electricity.
- BurningFrog 3y agoYou can always pump it back after extracting the helium.
- Retric 3y agoThat requires you to store a frankly insane volume of gas. It might happen, but only at vastly higher helium prices.
- mikrotikker 3y agoGiven that fossil fuels have allowed artificial expansion of the human population that would be sentencing large swathes of people to death.
- nico 3y agoNot saying this is what’s happening here, but this is a typical way in which corrupt government/politicians make bank They sell hugely valuable public assets to some private entity, which then sells it back (or lease or rent) to the government over the years, at a huge premium There are usually some kickbacks, and/or indirect ownership through partners/shell companies involved
- MagicMoonlight 3y agoYeah there's literally no reason to ever sell something like this. It's like selling all of the missiles. Oh now we need missiles, guess we'll need to buy them from the new private missile reserve. They've done this with a lot of things in the UK and now we have crumbling buildings and billionaire politicians.
- cvoss 3y agoThe current auction is part of a sale that has been in the works since 1996. If something untoward is happening, the public eye has had two and a half decades to spot it and correct it. And the eye has been on it; indeed, the mechanics of the sale were revisited and improved ten years ago. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Privatization_Act_of_1996 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_Privatization_Act_of_...
- nico 3y agoThat’s great, glad to know there’s been plenty of scrutiny over this At the same time, we’ve had regulatory capture in a bunch of industries for decades and it seems there isn’t much the public can really do about it The public being able to see what’s going on, for months/years/decades doesn't necessarily mean they are ok with it, it might just mean they are powerless
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- yinser 3y agoI’m appalled they didn’t loop in the HN community when considering the sale of Helium.
- civilitty 3y agoIn case anyone was wondering, the (refundable) fee to submit a sealed bid is $5 million.
- explodingwaffle 3y ago"To protect your organization from excessive usage and Denial of Service attacks, we limit the number of allowed content delivery views within a twenty-four hour period. Try viewing the content again later." C'mon guys, I was reading that 240 page government contract!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 3y agoThat's a reasonable false positive given that bots are far more likely to "read" a 240 page government contract than a human.
- pmontra 3y agoFor what's is worth, it's about 22.6 M cubic meters, a cube with a side of 2.83 km. I didn't check if they are storing it as a compressed gas but they probably do. 1500 psi is about 100 bar. No more a cube but still a very big array of 28.3 m tall tanks.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- jaycroft 3y ago283 meters, not 2.83km. Still big though. The helium is stored underground in a salt dome (that was once full of natural gas). See here for more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
- pmontra 3y agoYou are right, 283 * 283 * 283 = 22,665,187
- dang 3y agoWe changed the URL from https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/property/a0Xt000000DPeSLEA1/federal-helium-system-and-800-million-cubic-ft-of-crude-helium https://disposal.gsa.gov/s/property/a0Xt000000DPeSLEA1/feder... to one with more background. I'm told that https://www.blm.gov/programs/energy-and-minerals/helium/federal-helium-program https://www.blm.gov/programs/energy-and-minerals/helium/fede... is also good. Thanks to the users who suggested these!
- mnemotronic 3y agoI thought I heard that once the helium is gone, it's gone. We can't make it; we can't pump any more out of the ground. That would seem to be a hard-stop. Is that really the kind of resource we want to turn over to capitalists; who are driven primarily by stock incentives and short-term profit?
- voidfunc 3y agoYou'll be long dead and gone before it matters. Try not to worry about things that won't impact you in the slightest.
- tchbnl 3y agoAh, because who cares about the people who come after. That's their problem.
- voidfunc 3y agoIt is their problem. It's not your problem or anyone else's problem right now. Stop trying to control the future.
- plussed_reader 3y agoWhy not try to hand off an easier 'playing hand'? Or is that controlling the future as well?
- coherentpony 3y agoWell, I can't control the past. My options are the present, and the future, and the latter depends on the former. So what are my options?
- voxelghost 3y ago>So what are my options? Trust in the market forces to self regulate? Let Jesus take the wheel? Leave it to beaver? They all seems about equally realistic.
- aurizon 3y agoMusk can put a topping bid. 20 times the other top. He can then ask the party balloon people to pay 100 times = kill that waste business dead dead dead, - deserves that sort of death. Then he can meet the science demand at a variable spot price. The 10-15% from other small gas wells will be rendered economic = re-vitalise helium extraction from these small fry = there are a lot of them this procedure would render economic = assure a long tern supply. It would also liberate He from being a market pawn. They call this - 'a cat among pigeons' and boy would they scatter....
- aurizon 3y agoMany deep wells with impermeable cap rocks would assure a USA supply - these well vent their He because it is 1-3% He. Here is one:- https://www.firsthelium.com/ https://www.firsthelium.com/ there are hundreds like it,
- dismalpedigree 3y agoI hate this so much. Almost as much as I hate that we have been squandering it with an artificial price cap so we can fill party balloons cheaply. We have strategic reserves so we have resources when they are needed.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lost_tourist 3y agoIt's basically like "let's sell the Great Lakes because they're just sitting there" or "the grand canyon would make a great place to sell, it's not making a profit the way it is"
- stevespang 3y ago[dead]
- markl42 3y agoI wonder if the price is inflated
- markdbullock 3y agoCosts have ballooned
- nektro 3y agowhat an awful idea
- garfieldnate 3y agoI'm hoping that the sale is restricted to US-based entities, because this seems like a precious resource which could easily get bought up by a foreign power looking to exert some influence.
- fmajid 3y agoPresumably that would fall within the remit of CFIUS.