12 ms·

Tax prep companies: $90M lobbying against free tax-filing

443 points by everybodyknows 3y ago

jgalt212 3y ago
I'm surprised that this number is so low. What a deal these companies get to keep an unnecessary product necessary.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Indeed, it’s like medical costs. As you approach death, your price sensitivity for interventions declines to zero (what good is the money when you’re dead). But the money won’t help, this administration has the will to kill paid tax prep. It’s nice to see progress finally getting done. At least folks on K street are getting some cocktails and steaks out of it.
- lokar 3y ago
  They also have allies in low tax conservatives who seek to make taxes as painful as possible for everyone, including people who are actually getting a subsidy via the tax code.
  - deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
  Where does 90 million in "lobbying" go such that politicians aren't going directly to prison for bribery? Answer: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying
  - Etrnl_President 3y ago
    I assume wallets.
sys_64738 3y ago
Intuit and H&R Block deserve to crash and die. They should not exist and should never have existed.
- deleted 3y ago
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- dave333 3y ago
  It's paying tax most people hate. The tax prep companies just make it a bit less painful for a fee. We have the complex tax code we voted for. Simplifying it is great - just don't take away my deductions!!
ghouse 3y ago
For most tax payers in the US, the government has all of the necessary information to calculate tax liability through W-2, 1099, and other filings from third parties. A pragmatic approach might be to use this information, populate a tax form, send out for signature confirming accuracy and completeness. The balance of the tax payers could continue to use Intuit, H&R Block and others to handle their circumstances. There is a contingent of Congress that does not want to make tax preparation easier because it aligns with their narrative that taxes are bad. The more painful tax preparation is, the more sympathy they find with this narrative.
- matdehaast 3y ago
  This is literally how it works in South Africa. It’s called auto assessment. You get sent a form to confirm all correct and click submit online. 99% it has all the correct information
- ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
  Yep. The asinine requirement that we regurgitate what has already been reported to the government offends and steals from every U.S. taxpayer.
- nightski 3y ago
  For those people it’s pretty automatic as it is, even free.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Yeah, there should be a filled-in form option (where you can make changes) but the reality is that if you have a W-2 with maybe a 1099 or two (with no cost basis complications) and standard deduction, it's really not that complicated today.
- xienze 3y ago
  > There is a contingent of Congress that does not want to make tax preparation easier because it aligns with their narrative that taxes are bad. The more painful tax preparation is, the more sympathy they find with this narrative. I’m guessing you’re making a thinly-veiled reference to Republicans being the ones holding this up. Congress has had Democrat control many times over the decades, they could have pushed this through any time. Perhaps both parties share blame here.
lockhouse 3y ago
[flagged]
- rqtwteye 3y ago
  That’s totally orthogonal to making tax filing simpler. One has nothing to do with the other.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    I disagree. Cutting all the useless corporate subsidies and pork would allow us to simplify tax filing and the tax code all in one fell swoop. Then we could automate a huge chunk of the IRS and reallocate their employees to other agencies that will serve the tax payers better. It's a win for everyone except corrupt politicians and their corporate masters.
    - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
      It's completely unrelated. The tax code can be as complex or simple as desired for any number of other reasons. The government already knows the vast, vast majority of information required to determine what's owed, and we know that because they catch you when you screw it up. Obviously we can have processes for appeals or amendments to an individual's return. Nevertheless, do absolutely agree with getting rid of corporate subsidies and pork, and simplifying the tax code, if for no other reason than to close the innumerable number of loopholes abused by corporate entities and the wealthy.
      - _2z1p 3y ago
        A simple tax code is a simple one for a computer to calculate. 1. Input the taxpayers's income from all taxable sources. 2. Lookup what tax bracket you're in based on that income. 3. Calculate the appropriate tax bill based on that percentage. 4. Subtract that from whatever has already been taxed out of their payroll for the year. 5. Bill them or refund them appropriately. No humans would need to be part of the process if it were that simple, saving money and making errors less likely. Also, the simpler the tax code is the less computing hours it will require to complete the entire country's taxes, meaning faster refunds and less energy usage. Simpler taxes are even better for the environment!
racecar789 3y ago
I filed 2022 taxes with FreeTaxUSA. Pricing was very reasonable ($15 total for fed and state combined). The interface was better than I expected for such a low cost service. Prior to FreeTaxUSA, I used TaxSlayer, H&R Block, and Intuit. Intuit does surprise me by charging roughly the same as a CPA firm but for a "do it yourself" service.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  What CPA charges TurboTax prices? I'm talking "standard" TurboTax, not with all the ridiculous upsells that you don't need. I agree with everyone that it should be a completely unnecessary product, but I don't feel that it is excessively expensive for what it does.
  - Beached 3y ago
    not sure what TurboTax charges, but I pay $70 for fed , state, and local prep and filing.
  - teruakohatu 3y ago
    lockhouse, If you want your account deleted, please email the HN admins rather than posting the same comment over and over. The email address is at the bottom of every page.
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      Thanks, done! I still think it's wrong that HN needs my email address to delete accounts and comments, but yes I finally broke down and did this their way. I'll miss the good parts of this community, but the selective moderation and toxic flag-or-downvote-truths-i-dont-like-instead-of-discuss-them parts of the community have ruined this site for me.
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  > FreeTaxUSA > $15 total Sounds like a scam to me.
say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
How is $90 Million spent in lobbying activity? Where does the money go? Answer: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying
- bmitc 3y ago
  I assume pockets.
- delfinom 3y ago
  The real question is how much money is unreported. Lol
bradley13 3y ago
Track that $90 million, and publicize where it landed. Lots of corrupt politicians and regulators. I mean, I'm sure the money has been "legally" spent...just not ethically. Legal loopholes are deliberately left open...
- atlasunshrugged 3y ago
  The vast majority of lobbying dollars already are tracked, I recommend OpenSecrets. I don't think it's any secret that politicians are taking political donations and they (when they retire) or former staffers go to work for them for egregious sums of money. https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/05/turbotax-owner-intuit-ramps-up-lobbying-as-debate-over-government-run-free-tax-filing-heats-up/ https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/05/turbotax-owner-intu...
dave333 3y ago
Maybe a compromise that would keep both sides happy is for the government free file program to apply only to those who owe tax, but if you want a refund you have to pay for tax prep. Would maximize both tax and tax prep company revenue.
- notyourwork 3y ago
  No. That’s absurd, deductions for using the tax system to my advantage should not cost me money. e.g. Donations, mortgage insurance, credit for solar and home efficiency.
  - dave333 3y ago
    Then file your own taxes no need to pay for convenience.
  - lost_tourist 3y ago
    I'm sure somewhere in there we're paying taxes on the taxes we've paid. I don't care one bit about the demise of TaxAct or any of the others. There will always be work for the more complex taxes need for those of us with businesses, employees, etc.
- saxonww 3y ago
  Why do we need to keep the tax prep software industry happy and maximize their revenue?
  - dave333 3y ago
    Why have any capitalism? Because the alternatives like communism are disastrous. If we want a complex tax system tax prep companies serve a useful function.
    - cumshitpiss 3y ago
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conqrr 3y ago
If any billionaire wants to start real philanthropy, this would be a good start. Spend $100M or whatever to kill these companies and let free-filing happen.
- nickjj 3y ago
  Let's Encrypt for taxes. I'd love to see the day.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  I bet if the people had a simple way to simplify taxes, they would attack the billionaire and philanthropy, having a more effective way to understand what tax codes those entities use as well there isn’t really a benefit in offering these tools when the alternative is another 100 years of “taxing the rich” by raising income tax on the upper middle class
- euroderf 3y ago
  How many human lifetimes are wasted every year by unnecessary tax prep ?
lockhouse 3y ago
[flagged]
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  They probably should have given how hollow “precedent” actually turned out to be when the SC majority decides they want to overturn something but until Roe was overturned, Ds weren’t the party running on abortion for the past 20 years.
  - _2z1p 3y ago
    The Supreme Court overturned Roe because it was a deeply flawed decision. Even former Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg disagreed with it. https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsburg-offers-critique-roe-v-wade-during-law-school-visit https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsbur...
    - Guvante 3y ago
      Why did the SC need a Goldilocks decision to overturn it? Examples from since the Constitution were invalid but examples before the Constitution were also invalid. Ruth did not "disagree with it". She was critical of it, which is very very different. Specifically she thought that focusing on the doctors right to decide on treatment course was a bad vector to enshrine a woman's control over her own bodily function. Similarly she saw the rallying cry and felt that if the SC hadn't stepped in a more natural process would have resulted in a similar status over a longer time period anyway. "If the SC hadn't done something everyone else would have" and " it didn't go far enough" are not "disagreed with".
      - _2z1p 3y ago
        That’s the problem, Roe was an overstepping of the Supreme Court. A law should’ve been passed instead. That is why this Supreme Court ruled the way they did. There was nothing in the Constitution or established law to support Roe.
kepler1 3y ago
Maybe we should have as a public policy that when a certain topic is of sufficient public interest, and we observe some amount of $ registered for lobbying, the government should be able to allocate a proportional amount of funds to have policymakers receive competent advice from other sides of the argument. (distributed according to some sound independent judgement) It seems that we're just leaving a lot of things to who can outgun in $ the other side lately. And sound government will never win in this race.
- deleted 3y ago
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underlipton 3y ago
Also health insurance companies lobbying against single-payer healthcare. Also telecoms lobbying against municipal broadband. Also banks and investors lobbying against regulation and oversight. Also firearms manufacturers lobbying against control amidst an epidemic of suicides and other gun-based violence. This seems to be a trend.
- doubt_me 3y ago
  [dead]
- Spivak 3y ago
  People who run businesses being opposed to government coming in and messing with them is a trend in the way that firefighters being found near fires is a trend. I guarantee you won't be happy the first time something you've been doing for 20 years (like cooking on a ventilated gas range, smoking menthols, using a leaf blower, not using afci outlets) is suddenly declared illegal and you have to switch at your own expense and to something worse for no gain. Like what do you expect someone's reaction to be? "Thank you Mr. Government for completely erasing my market by providing the goods/services I sell to people for 'free' but paid with tax dollars which I can't possibly compete with." It doesn't mean that you shouldn't make the law or that it's not a net good for society but people will be pissed, they will push back any way they can, and will be right to do it.
  - Infinitesimus 3y ago
    I think it's not as clear cut as it sounds regarding "they will be right to do it". That depends on reference frame. Sure, the tobacco industry is "right" from the angle of their personal riches to push something that has cost millions of lives and fight government resistance. Same for oil companies, plastics, some parts of pharma, etc. From the reference frame of society, which the government represents (ideally), they are in the wrong to sell put millions of people for their own gains and what you'd want a representative government to do is help society's interests and adjust as the world evolves. In this case, the reason for making people spend hours of their lives, untold amounts of stress and billions of dollars is so some people can: 1. Make money, and 2. Fulfill a personal political philosophy Maybe it's okay if governments tip the scales in favor of the masses here...
mmcconnell1618 3y ago
There are about 125 million households in the US. I'm making the assumption that most households are filing a single tax return even if there are two or more incomes. Statistica reports that about 60% of households owe Federal taxes. So the market size of tax filing households is about 75,000,000. How many small dollar donations would it take to either rival the lobbying dollars of Intuit or create a fantastic free alternative?
- twoodfin 3y ago
  Already happening: https://apnews.com/article/tax-irs-taxpayers-direct-file-ef2e9f92ad45984487fd368b851773af https://apnews.com/article/tax-irs-taxpayers-direct-file-ef2... I’m not holding my breath on “fantastic”.
- deleted 3y ago
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reso 3y ago
It's interesting to think about the harm done by Intuit and other companies' lobbying on this file, and compare it to the language that people like Ben Horowitz have used to describe Bill Campbell, Intuit's chairman in this period. To hear it from people like Horowitz (in his book), Campbell is one of the best people he's ever met; one step removed from a saint. But the man's actions in stopping free online filing to become a reality in the US have caused incredible harm. It's easy to confuse a nice person with a good person.
- fakedang 3y ago
  Isn't that the case with everyone Silicon Valley lionizes? People in tech always want to show how much they work for the "good side", when in reality, they're all part of the machine that causes long term societal harm. I was recently at an event in New York, where they were honoring Kissinger. At least there, no one in the room was playing the part of a saint - everyone knew he was a near equivalent of the devil incarnate, possibly even the old man himself.
  - reso 3y ago
    To me this illustrates something different than “all Silicon Valley people think they are the good guys”. Eg. Elon Musk is famously not very nice, doesn’t pretend to be nice, and many people have had bad experiences with him directly. But there is a different set of SV people who no one has ever said a mean word about personally, but whose influence on the world is deeply harmful, sometimes bordering on evil, like Campbell’s case here. I think many people can’t tell the difference between a nice person and a good person.
dang 3y ago
It's CPS time! Related: IRS moves forward with a new free-file tax return system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804710 - July 2023 (221 comments) IRS tests free e-filing system that could compete with tax prep giants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35950836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35950836 - May 2023 (567 comments) Call on the IRS to provide libre tax-filing software - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35705469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35705469 - April 2023 (129 comments) 60M Americans have taxes so simple the IRS could do them automatically - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35476709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35476709 - April 2023 (277 comments) Lobbyists begin chipping away at Biden’s $80B IRS overhaul - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35381701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35381701 - March 2023 (214 comments) Intuit pouring money into lobbying amid push for free government-run tax filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34840039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34840039 - Feb 2023 (178 comments) IRS builds task force to explore running its own free e-file system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34764952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34764952 - Feb 2023 (199 comments) IRS Free File: Do Your Taxes for Free - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34462122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34462122 - Jan 2023 (247 comments) IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32753099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32753099 - Sept 2022 (408 comments) The IRS could be on the verge of changing the way Americans file their taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32550841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32550841 - Aug 2022 (17 comments) IRS will study free tax filing options - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32502321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32502321 - Aug 2022 (25 comments) TurboTax’s fight against free tax filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31072202 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31072202 - April 2022 (394 comments) Filing taxes could be free & simple. H&R Block & Intuit lobby against it (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 - March 2022 (114 comments) FTC sues Intuit for its deceptive TurboTax “free” filing campaign - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 - March 2022 (587 comments) Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 - Feb 2022 (122 comments) Why do Americans have to pay much to file their tax returns when the IRS knows? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30267361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30267361 - Feb 2022 (22 comments) Filing Taxes Could Be Free and Simple. But H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against It (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 - Feb 2022 (18 comments) California tried to save the nation from tax filing, then Intuit stepped in - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28944200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28944200 - Oct 2021 (283 comments) The IRS has a big opportunity to fix the way Americans file taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28177289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28177289 - Aug 2021 (12 comments) -- GOTO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35970518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35970518
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SergeAx 3y ago
My friends from States for years encouraging me to move to the US. I am not doing it because something is really fucked there. I am currently is a tax resident of Serbia, which is really a third world country, and I mean it though I love the country very much. No offense. I don't have to file my taxes here, my primary income is automatically reported to the local tax authority. All I have to do is declare any extra income and file tax return form, if I am eligible,via government web service. The most painful process was obtaining a physical electronic key/certificate to access said website. Which is impressive by itself: it is literally government issued Yubikey alternative, accessible by any country's resident.
bastard_op 3y ago
No one can claim ignorance of the tax filing industry, mostly Intuit and HR Block, paying to block any such notion of easy IRS filings since the Internet and ecommerce took off. If IRS standardized e-filing for citizens, it'd remove what, 70% of Intuit's market value overnight, crippling net worth for how many employees and investors of such a fragile industry on the edge of collapse should this happen? Now it is, finally happening. Finally some common sense took hold to let someone in government see beyond themselves the lobbying cash and veritable bribery that single-handedly kept Intuit their ilk as behemoths in the industry with nothing more than our politicians willfully overlooking the industry extortion of every common US citizen. Sadly Intuit and like won't die overnight as sadly most silly accountants only know Quickbooks, same as people only know Microsoft Office or Windows itself, but it'll be fun to see them decimated soon once their services are no longer necessary to buy by de facto simply to pay taxes. Hell, I'm sure if I tell ChatGPT they're a really good accountant, they'd gladly do it for me soon enough too.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
Would it be fair to nationalize the companies at an amount approaching market value? From the company’s perspective, they did solve a real problem that was previously created by the government and it took a lot of time and resources to do it. The government changing the rules would be kind of a rug pull on those companies, even if the new rules are objectively better than the old ones.
- landemva 3y ago
  Not for me, but how much of your personal money would you like to chip in to bail out the current owners of tax prep companies?
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    I can think of a lot of things currently happening with my tax dollars that I support less than this. Also, bailout isn’t an accurate term. The government is about to destroy their industry through direct action. Bailout is when the company fails of its own accord and the government steps in. It would be like if the government started making free medical records software and bankrupted the existing companies.
    - msm_ 3y ago
      Similarly, my country is trying to get rid of a coal industry, and they absolutely pay or promise a lot of money to the soon-to-be unemployed miners.
Racing0461 3y ago
The government wants everyone except a select few companies to be wagies.
6510 3y ago
Just curious, what would be the drawback of having a single government abstraction to do salaries? You register your employee, upload the contract, set the hourly rate. You report how many hours they've worked. Then you get billed and the employee is paid. Then gradually make the same abstraction for everything? You register your non profit for donations. The donor is billed, the non profit is paid. etc Is there some problem with this formula?
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  That would be even more bureaucracy and we don't need that. Most people's taxes are complicated enough to need services like taxact, that's what this effort is aimed at. Mostly likely businesses and corporations will always need accountants.
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
For my own one-man electrical shop, I have used a private tax preparer – IN PERSON without a computer – to prepare US-state-level business taxes. Earlier this year, I used ChatGPT to help me file my Federal 2022 taxes, so I credited this $20/month service under the 1040's "Paid Preparer Information." Discussing this submission with my tax preparer had her mortified about career decisions (middle-aged female, began own taxshop a decade prior). I don't know where worlds are heading, but she was honest about "how standard/easy" the majority of tax-filings are. In my own case, I pay for her services on business taxes because the entire tax system IS DESIGNED TO BE DIFFICULT for Average Joe Consumer. I can afford to not play tax games, can you?

jgalt212 3y ago

I'm surprised that this number is so low. What a deal these companies get to keep an unnecessary product necessary.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Indeed, it’s like medical costs. As you approach death, your price sensitivity for interventions declines to zero (what good is the money when you’re dead). But the money won’t help, this administration has the will to kill paid tax prep. It’s nice to see progress finally getting done. At least folks on K street are getting some cocktails and steaks out of it.
lokar 3y ago
They also have allies in low tax conservatives who seek to make taxes as painful as possible for everyone, including people who are actually getting a subsidy via the tax code.
- deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
Where does 90 million in "lobbying" go such that politicians aren't going directly to prison for bribery? Answer: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying
- Etrnl_President 3y ago
  I assume wallets.

sys_64738 3y ago

Intuit and H&R Block deserve to crash and die. They should not exist and should never have existed.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dave333 3y ago
It's paying tax most people hate. The tax prep companies just make it a bit less painful for a fee. We have the complex tax code we voted for. Simplifying it is great - just don't take away my deductions!!

ghouse 3y ago

For most tax payers in the US, the government has all of the necessary information to calculate tax liability through W-2, 1099, and other filings from third parties. A pragmatic approach might be to use this information, populate a tax form, send out for signature confirming accuracy and completeness. The balance of the tax payers could continue to use Intuit, H&R Block and others to handle their circumstances. There is a contingent of Congress that does not want to make tax preparation easier because it aligns with their narrative that taxes are bad. The more painful tax preparation is, the more sympathy they find with this narrative.

matdehaast 3y ago
This is literally how it works in South Africa. It’s called auto assessment. You get sent a form to confirm all correct and click submit online. 99% it has all the correct information
ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
Yep. The asinine requirement that we regurgitate what has already been reported to the government offends and steals from every U.S. taxpayer.
nightski 3y ago
For those people it’s pretty automatic as it is, even free.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Yeah, there should be a filled-in form option (where you can make changes) but the reality is that if you have a W-2 with maybe a 1099 or two (with no cost basis complications) and standard deduction, it's really not that complicated today.
xienze 3y ago
> There is a contingent of Congress that does not want to make tax preparation easier because it aligns with their narrative that taxes are bad. The more painful tax preparation is, the more sympathy they find with this narrative. I’m guessing you’re making a thinly-veiled reference to Republicans being the ones holding this up. Congress has had Democrat control many times over the decades, they could have pushed this through any time. Perhaps both parties share blame here.

lockhouse 3y ago

[flagged]

rqtwteye 3y ago
That’s totally orthogonal to making tax filing simpler. One has nothing to do with the other.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  I disagree. Cutting all the useless corporate subsidies and pork would allow us to simplify tax filing and the tax code all in one fell swoop. Then we could automate a huge chunk of the IRS and reallocate their employees to other agencies that will serve the tax payers better. It's a win for everyone except corrupt politicians and their corporate masters.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    It's completely unrelated. The tax code can be as complex or simple as desired for any number of other reasons. The government already knows the vast, vast majority of information required to determine what's owed, and we know that because they catch you when you screw it up. Obviously we can have processes for appeals or amendments to an individual's return. Nevertheless, do absolutely agree with getting rid of corporate subsidies and pork, and simplifying the tax code, if for no other reason than to close the innumerable number of loopholes abused by corporate entities and the wealthy.
    - _2z1p 3y ago
      A simple tax code is a simple one for a computer to calculate. 1. Input the taxpayers's income from all taxable sources. 2. Lookup what tax bracket you're in based on that income. 3. Calculate the appropriate tax bill based on that percentage. 4. Subtract that from whatever has already been taxed out of their payroll for the year. 5. Bill them or refund them appropriately. No humans would need to be part of the process if it were that simple, saving money and making errors less likely. Also, the simpler the tax code is the less computing hours it will require to complete the entire country's taxes, meaning faster refunds and less energy usage. Simpler taxes are even better for the environment!

racecar789 3y ago

I filed 2022 taxes with FreeTaxUSA. Pricing was very reasonable ($15 total for fed and state combined). The interface was better than I expected for such a low cost service. Prior to FreeTaxUSA, I used TaxSlayer, H&R Block, and Intuit. Intuit does surprise me by charging roughly the same as a CPA firm but for a "do it yourself" service.

lockhouse 3y ago
What CPA charges TurboTax prices? I'm talking "standard" TurboTax, not with all the ridiculous upsells that you don't need. I agree with everyone that it should be a completely unnecessary product, but I don't feel that it is excessively expensive for what it does.
- Beached 3y ago
  not sure what TurboTax charges, but I pay $70 for fed , state, and local prep and filing.
- teruakohatu 3y ago
  lockhouse, If you want your account deleted, please email the HN admins rather than posting the same comment over and over. The email address is at the bottom of every page.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    Thanks, done! I still think it's wrong that HN needs my email address to delete accounts and comments, but yes I finally broke down and did this their way. I'll miss the good parts of this community, but the selective moderation and toxic flag-or-downvote-truths-i-dont-like-instead-of-discuss-them parts of the community have ruined this site for me.
hamandcheese 3y ago
> FreeTaxUSA > $15 total Sounds like a scam to me.

say_it_as_it_is 3y ago

How is $90 Million spent in lobbying activity? Where does the money go? Answer: https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying https://www.opensecrets.org/news/reports/layers-of-lobbying

bmitc 3y ago
I assume pockets.
delfinom 3y ago
The real question is how much money is unreported. Lol

bradley13 3y ago

Track that $90 million, and publicize where it landed. Lots of corrupt politicians and regulators. I mean, I'm sure the money has been "legally" spent...just not ethically. Legal loopholes are deliberately left open...

atlasunshrugged 3y ago
The vast majority of lobbying dollars already are tracked, I recommend OpenSecrets. I don't think it's any secret that politicians are taking political donations and they (when they retire) or former staffers go to work for them for egregious sums of money. https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/05/turbotax-owner-intuit-ramps-up-lobbying-as-debate-over-government-run-free-tax-filing-heats-up/ https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/05/turbotax-owner-intu...

dave333 3y ago

Maybe a compromise that would keep both sides happy is for the government free file program to apply only to those who owe tax, but if you want a refund you have to pay for tax prep. Would maximize both tax and tax prep company revenue.

notyourwork 3y ago
No. That’s absurd, deductions for using the tax system to my advantage should not cost me money. e.g. Donations, mortgage insurance, credit for solar and home efficiency.
- dave333 3y ago
  Then file your own taxes no need to pay for convenience.
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  I'm sure somewhere in there we're paying taxes on the taxes we've paid. I don't care one bit about the demise of TaxAct or any of the others. There will always be work for the more complex taxes need for those of us with businesses, employees, etc.
saxonww 3y ago
Why do we need to keep the tax prep software industry happy and maximize their revenue?
- dave333 3y ago
  Why have any capitalism? Because the alternatives like communism are disastrous. If we want a complex tax system tax prep companies serve a useful function.
  - cumshitpiss 3y ago
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conqrr 3y ago

If any billionaire wants to start real philanthropy, this would be a good start. Spend $100M or whatever to kill these companies and let free-filing happen.

nickjj 3y ago
Let's Encrypt for taxes. I'd love to see the day.
yieldcrv 3y ago
I bet if the people had a simple way to simplify taxes, they would attack the billionaire and philanthropy, having a more effective way to understand what tax codes those entities use as well there isn’t really a benefit in offering these tools when the alternative is another 100 years of “taxing the rich” by raising income tax on the upper middle class
euroderf 3y ago
How many human lifetimes are wasted every year by unnecessary tax prep ?

lockhouse 3y ago

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mikeyouse 3y ago
They probably should have given how hollow “precedent” actually turned out to be when the SC majority decides they want to overturn something but until Roe was overturned, Ds weren’t the party running on abortion for the past 20 years.
- _2z1p 3y ago
  The Supreme Court overturned Roe because it was a deeply flawed decision. Even former Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg disagreed with it. https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsburg-offers-critique-roe-v-wade-during-law-school-visit https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsbur...
  - Guvante 3y ago
    Why did the SC need a Goldilocks decision to overturn it? Examples from since the Constitution were invalid but examples before the Constitution were also invalid. Ruth did not "disagree with it". She was critical of it, which is very very different. Specifically she thought that focusing on the doctors right to decide on treatment course was a bad vector to enshrine a woman's control over her own bodily function. Similarly she saw the rallying cry and felt that if the SC hadn't stepped in a more natural process would have resulted in a similar status over a longer time period anyway. "If the SC hadn't done something everyone else would have" and " it didn't go far enough" are not "disagreed with".
    - _2z1p 3y ago
      That’s the problem, Roe was an overstepping of the Supreme Court. A law should’ve been passed instead. That is why this Supreme Court ruled the way they did. There was nothing in the Constitution or established law to support Roe.

kepler1 3y ago

Maybe we should have as a public policy that when a certain topic is of sufficient public interest, and we observe some amount of $ registered for lobbying, the government should be able to allocate a proportional amount of funds to have policymakers receive competent advice from other sides of the argument. (distributed according to some sound independent judgement) It seems that we're just leaving a lot of things to who can outgun in $ the other side lately. And sound government will never win in this race.

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underlipton 3y ago

Also health insurance companies lobbying against single-payer healthcare. Also telecoms lobbying against municipal broadband. Also banks and investors lobbying against regulation and oversight. Also firearms manufacturers lobbying against control amidst an epidemic of suicides and other gun-based violence. This seems to be a trend.

doubt_me 3y ago
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Spivak 3y ago
People who run businesses being opposed to government coming in and messing with them is a trend in the way that firefighters being found near fires is a trend. I guarantee you won't be happy the first time something you've been doing for 20 years (like cooking on a ventilated gas range, smoking menthols, using a leaf blower, not using afci outlets) is suddenly declared illegal and you have to switch at your own expense and to something worse for no gain. Like what do you expect someone's reaction to be? "Thank you Mr. Government for completely erasing my market by providing the goods/services I sell to people for 'free' but paid with tax dollars which I can't possibly compete with." It doesn't mean that you shouldn't make the law or that it's not a net good for society but people will be pissed, they will push back any way they can, and will be right to do it.
- Infinitesimus 3y ago
  I think it's not as clear cut as it sounds regarding "they will be right to do it". That depends on reference frame. Sure, the tobacco industry is "right" from the angle of their personal riches to push something that has cost millions of lives and fight government resistance. Same for oil companies, plastics, some parts of pharma, etc. From the reference frame of society, which the government represents (ideally), they are in the wrong to sell put millions of people for their own gains and what you'd want a representative government to do is help society's interests and adjust as the world evolves. In this case, the reason for making people spend hours of their lives, untold amounts of stress and billions of dollars is so some people can: 1. Make money, and 2. Fulfill a personal political philosophy Maybe it's okay if governments tip the scales in favor of the masses here...

mmcconnell1618 3y ago

There are about 125 million households in the US. I'm making the assumption that most households are filing a single tax return even if there are two or more incomes. Statistica reports that about 60% of households owe Federal taxes. So the market size of tax filing households is about 75,000,000. How many small dollar donations would it take to either rival the lobbying dollars of Intuit or create a fantastic free alternative?

twoodfin 3y ago
Already happening: https://apnews.com/article/tax-irs-taxpayers-direct-file-ef2e9f92ad45984487fd368b851773af https://apnews.com/article/tax-irs-taxpayers-direct-file-ef2... I’m not holding my breath on “fantastic”.
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reso 3y ago

It's interesting to think about the harm done by Intuit and other companies' lobbying on this file, and compare it to the language that people like Ben Horowitz have used to describe Bill Campbell, Intuit's chairman in this period. To hear it from people like Horowitz (in his book), Campbell is one of the best people he's ever met; one step removed from a saint. But the man's actions in stopping free online filing to become a reality in the US have caused incredible harm. It's easy to confuse a nice person with a good person.

fakedang 3y ago
Isn't that the case with everyone Silicon Valley lionizes? People in tech always want to show how much they work for the "good side", when in reality, they're all part of the machine that causes long term societal harm. I was recently at an event in New York, where they were honoring Kissinger. At least there, no one in the room was playing the part of a saint - everyone knew he was a near equivalent of the devil incarnate, possibly even the old man himself.
- reso 3y ago
  To me this illustrates something different than “all Silicon Valley people think they are the good guys”. Eg. Elon Musk is famously not very nice, doesn’t pretend to be nice, and many people have had bad experiences with him directly. But there is a different set of SV people who no one has ever said a mean word about personally, but whose influence on the world is deeply harmful, sometimes bordering on evil, like Campbell’s case here. I think many people can’t tell the difference between a nice person and a good person.

dang 3y ago

It's CPS time! Related: IRS moves forward with a new free-file tax return system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36804710 - July 2023 (221 comments) IRS tests free e-filing system that could compete with tax prep giants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35950836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35950836 - May 2023 (567 comments) Call on the IRS to provide libre tax-filing software - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35705469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35705469 - April 2023 (129 comments) 60M Americans have taxes so simple the IRS could do them automatically - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35476709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35476709 - April 2023 (277 comments) Lobbyists begin chipping away at Biden’s $80B IRS overhaul - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35381701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35381701 - March 2023 (214 comments) Intuit pouring money into lobbying amid push for free government-run tax filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34840039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34840039 - Feb 2023 (178 comments) IRS builds task force to explore running its own free e-file system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34764952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34764952 - Feb 2023 (199 comments) IRS Free File: Do Your Taxes for Free - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34462122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34462122 - Jan 2023 (247 comments) IRS will look into setting up a free e-filing system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32753099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32753099 - Sept 2022 (408 comments) The IRS could be on the verge of changing the way Americans file their taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32550841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32550841 - Aug 2022 (17 comments) IRS will study free tax filing options - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32502321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32502321 - Aug 2022 (25 comments) TurboTax’s fight against free tax filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31072202 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31072202 - April 2022 (394 comments) Filing taxes could be free & simple. H&R Block & Intuit lobby against it (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 - March 2022 (114 comments) FTC sues Intuit for its deceptive TurboTax “free” filing campaign - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 - March 2022 (587 comments) Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 - Feb 2022 (122 comments) Why do Americans have to pay much to file their tax returns when the IRS knows? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30267361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30267361 - Feb 2022 (22 comments) Filing Taxes Could Be Free and Simple. But H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against It (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 - Feb 2022 (18 comments) California tried to save the nation from tax filing, then Intuit stepped in - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28944200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28944200 - Oct 2021 (283 comments) The IRS has a big opportunity to fix the way Americans file taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28177289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28177289 - Aug 2021 (12 comments) -- GOTO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35970518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35970518

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SergeAx 3y ago

My friends from States for years encouraging me to move to the US. I am not doing it because something is really fucked there. I am currently is a tax resident of Serbia, which is really a third world country, and I mean it though I love the country very much. No offense. I don't have to file my taxes here, my primary income is automatically reported to the local tax authority. All I have to do is declare any extra income and file tax return form, if I am eligible,via government web service. The most painful process was obtaining a physical electronic key/certificate to access said website. Which is impressive by itself: it is literally government issued Yubikey alternative, accessible by any country's resident.

bastard_op 3y ago

No one can claim ignorance of the tax filing industry, mostly Intuit and HR Block, paying to block any such notion of easy IRS filings since the Internet and ecommerce took off. If IRS standardized e-filing for citizens, it'd remove what, 70% of Intuit's market value overnight, crippling net worth for how many employees and investors of such a fragile industry on the edge of collapse should this happen? Now it is, finally happening. Finally some common sense took hold to let someone in government see beyond themselves the lobbying cash and veritable bribery that single-handedly kept Intuit their ilk as behemoths in the industry with nothing more than our politicians willfully overlooking the industry extortion of every common US citizen. Sadly Intuit and like won't die overnight as sadly most silly accountants only know Quickbooks, same as people only know Microsoft Office or Windows itself, but it'll be fun to see them decimated soon once their services are no longer necessary to buy by de facto simply to pay taxes. Hell, I'm sure if I tell ChatGPT they're a really good accountant, they'd gladly do it for me soon enough too.

pfannkuchen 3y ago

Would it be fair to nationalize the companies at an amount approaching market value? From the company’s perspective, they did solve a real problem that was previously created by the government and it took a lot of time and resources to do it. The government changing the rules would be kind of a rug pull on those companies, even if the new rules are objectively better than the old ones.

landemva 3y ago
Not for me, but how much of your personal money would you like to chip in to bail out the current owners of tax prep companies?
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  I can think of a lot of things currently happening with my tax dollars that I support less than this. Also, bailout isn’t an accurate term. The government is about to destroy their industry through direct action. Bailout is when the company fails of its own accord and the government steps in. It would be like if the government started making free medical records software and bankrupted the existing companies.
  - msm_ 3y ago
    Similarly, my country is trying to get rid of a coal industry, and they absolutely pay or promise a lot of money to the soon-to-be unemployed miners.

Racing0461 3y ago

The government wants everyone except a select few companies to be wagies.

6510 3y ago

Just curious, what would be the drawback of having a single government abstraction to do salaries? You register your employee, upload the contract, set the hourly rate. You report how many hours they've worked. Then you get billed and the employee is paid. Then gradually make the same abstraction for everything? You register your non profit for donations. The donor is billed, the non profit is paid. etc Is there some problem with this formula?

lost_tourist 3y ago
That would be even more bureaucracy and we don't need that. Most people's taxes are complicated enough to need services like taxact, that's what this effort is aimed at. Mostly likely businesses and corporations will always need accountants.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago

For my own one-man electrical shop, I have used a private tax preparer – IN PERSON without a computer – to prepare US-state-level business taxes. Earlier this year, I used ChatGPT to help me file my Federal 2022 taxes, so I credited this $20/month service under the 1040's "Paid Preparer Information." Discussing this submission with my tax preparer had her mortified about career decisions (middle-aged female, began own taxshop a decade prior). I don't know where worlds are heading, but she was honest about "how standard/easy" the majority of tax-filings are. In my own case, I pay for her services on business taxes because the entire tax system IS DESIGNED TO BE DIFFICULT for Average Joe Consumer. I can afford to not play tax games, can you?