32 ms·

"Lighten up"

• deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
• duaneb 15y ago
  While I sympathize for the person, I can't help but wonder if it was the right decision. She's going to be facing the same problems in every male-dominated industry; is it worth giving up the thing you love? I can't answer, obviously, because I'm male, and in a different position besides that. Thankfully, I've never run into this in real life. I've always worked with coworkers respectful of each other, and I can't imagine tolerating that kind of sexism without any confrontation. One would think people would learn to interact—or rather, which interactions are harmful—with people of different genders at a younger age.
  • kcunning 15y ago
    I think I left that a little vague (the original title was clearer about me staying in IT). I'm still a developer. It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change.
    • blake8086 15y ago
      In your opinion, what is a potential solution to this problem?
      • kcunning 15y ago
        1. Awareness. 2. You'd be shocked how much better my environment would be if, when I expressed concern about something, I was not told to 'lighten up', but if my concern was treated as valid.
        • mirsadm 15y ago
          I'm surprised by that response, 'lighten up' to be clear. We always joked around and if anybody, whether it be female or male, got offended then it was certainly not OK. I have never worked with anybody that intentionally tried to offend somebody and was nothing but apologetic if it occurred. Though I am sure there are plenty that exist.
        • blake8086 15y ago
          I feel that awareness will be difficult. I think the people who pay attention to things like your blog post are the people who are already sympathetic. It's like if you wrote a guide about "How To Not Be An Asshole", assholes would probably not read it.
          • moxiemk1 15y ago
            Perhaps, but if we can continue to make it known that inappropriate behavior is unacceptable, it will be impossible for them to miss the signs. Women shouldn't have be the only ones calling out their peers for making othering comments - everyone can do that.
          • msbarnett 15y ago
            It's not about changing the asshole's behavior, per se, it's about changing the response of Jim, random third party in the meeting where Bob says he's sitting across from Katie so he can ogle her tits from: "Katie, lighten up" to "Bob, stop being such a creepy fuck. It's unacceptable".
    • duaneb 15y ago
      > It may exist in every industry, but this is the one I've chosen, and this is where I can start to make a change. Good! I think that's the right decision. I can't imagine what would cause the world to get better about this aside from women, on a global scale, making it very clear that it's not OK.
      • hythloday 15y ago
        How about men, on a global scale, making it very clear that it's not OK?
  • wilmoore 15y ago
    While I agree that leaving the industry might not be the best choice (luckily she did not), we do need to realize that even though this happens in many other industries, IT is one with relatively few women in the first place so think of how lonely it could feel to be singled out and feel like nobody is on your side. Until you feel that, you might empathize, but you can't relate. The easiest way to deal is to think about how you'd want your mother, sister, or spouse to be treated. If you wouldn't like it for them, don't ever stand by and do nothing when this stuff happens. Also, about losing a job or business...if you put a job or a client ahead of your ethics, it's time to do some self refactoring.
• Jun8 15y ago
  "What do you say to the guy who sits across from you when you dress up and makes a comment to everyone about it? "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Yikes! What sort of a place was this, what sort of people was she working with? I've never seen/heard anything remotely like this. It is sort of hard to generalize from such morons to the whole tech field.
  • deleted 15y ago
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    • tptacek 15y ago
      The point is not the one moron who does it; the point is having herself to escalate the issue to HR. She's the victim, but she has to play the role of the "problem". Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet. We need to get there. If it helps you to see it: think about what you'd do if a team member made a lighthearted racist joke in front of an African American team member. See how we actually do have the norm there? Let's just get it applied to the whole half of humanity having to deal with this stuff.
      • larrys 15y ago
        "Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet." I don't think things like this are clear cut like you are saying. What if you were unemployed for 2 years and then got a new job? And for an entrepreneur? Say for some reason your company isn't doing well. You go and pitch a big account that could be "the big break" (that digs you out of a hole). The decision maker says something offensive. How willing will you be to stand up at that time when you have something big to loose? Of course this is all a matter of degree obviously. Some people will definitely shy away from doing the right thing in almost all cases while others will go to their death defending what they believe. Even if it makes them homeless. I remember being in a situation years ago at a company in Silicon Valley where the head of marketing (who is very well known and respected and teaches now believe me you've heard of him) was very offensive, parental, basically a dick. And of course nobody said anything at the time to challenge him. He was a primadonna and even his superiors didn't challenge him.
• netmau5 15y ago
  I like to joke around and have a good time while doing serious work. This isnt some profound optimization technique, just something that makes my day happier and usually that of those around me. However, my general rule of thumb is to never directly engage a female at the workplace outside of a purely professional, subdued necessity. They are too sensitive. While I know I have good intentions and care for their happiness, not everyone has the same level of empathy. So I simply avoid getting grouped into the fratboy category even when I really do want them to just lighten up a bit. I personally find blanket invitations to after-work drinks to be a better environment to get more friendly with the ladies on the team, most will drop their shields a few notches.
  • jamesaguilar 15y ago
    I can tell you from experience that women in the workplace are fine with joking around and having a laugh. The folks in my office have very casual and friendly relationships and we often find ourselves discussing, and joking about, very sensitive topics, the women included. The issue is not that women are too sensitive to joke with or talk with about these things. The issue is when those jokes are made at the expense of women, targeted at women, or degrading to women. And that's going to be true for most women both in and out of the workplace.
  • strix_varius 15y ago
    So far all the women on my team are fantastic and can give and take in equal measure to any of the guys. I fear the day we hire a hypersensitive woman and the entire office becomes censored.
• tptacek 15y ago
  It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with enough not- taking- one- iota- of- shit for the next 10 years, not have to suffer any of this. So I guess what I'm saying is thanks.
  • benihana 15y ago
    >(for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) Why? Because you would have beat his ass? Cause you would have shown him what happens when he comes on to your woman? You would have had an unkind word with him? Do you not believe your wife can handle herself? Trying to bash down a gender role by reinforcing another is pretty silly.
    • huckfinnaafb 15y ago
      Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.
      • LaGrange 15y ago
        Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters. The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I was horrified and angered by it," not "I will respond to this by aggressive behavior not that much unlike what the other dude did". And proper response to someone noticing it is, probably, "oh... um, I didn't think about it like that, thanks, sorry", not "but I had good intentions!!!"
• maukdaddy 15y ago
  This just makes me sad for the industry as a whole. Unbelievable that in today's world women have to put up with this. Guys, want to know how you can help change these kinds of attitudes? When you see/hear another guy make these kinds of comments, pull them aside and have a talk. Maybe it's a gentle reminder of how hurtful and counterproductive these kinds of attitudes are, or maybe it's a forceful "I never want to hear that shit again" - depends on the type of personality you're dealing with. Regardless, you need to have the difficult conversations with friends or colleagues who act this way, because turning a blind eye and ignoring the problem doesn't help anyone.
  • MattRogish 15y ago
    I think it has to be immediate and public. That doesn't mean severe or disrespectful. Everyone has to do it, but it certainly should be set up from the top down that this is unacceptable and will stop. I take a page from the Results Only Work Environment: http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html
    • maukdaddy 15y ago
      Immediate and public is certainly the best approach, although it might depend on the environment, who is present, etc. Sometimes a conversation in private might be better. You are exactly correct in regards to top down. A leader, manager, boss, etc. should immediately send the message that inappropriate behavior is not tolerated.
      • MattRogish 15y ago
        I broadly agree with you; this reply isn't for you inasmuch as it's to just continue the chain - my only caution about the "in private" is that it makes it an issue between the manager and the employee. The mgr can't be around for everything; it's up to the team to self police. Sirens and other things cause public shaming when someone breaks the build; there needs to be a public and team-based shaming for inappropriate behavior.
    • 15y ago
• crusso 15y ago
  @kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. While there are always those who don't know how to avoid crossing the lines of appropriateness; do you feel that most of your coworkers are doing so?
  • kcunning 15y ago
    I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all. What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that. Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doesn't have to be everyone. Even a few jerks can make an environment go from awesome to horrible.
    • crusso 15y ago
      Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.
      • jff 15y ago
        HR should also be on your side there too because, at least in my company, HR is almost entirely staffed by women. So they quite possibly have their own experiences with sexism in the workplace and won't simply dismiss the problem.
        • wilmoore 15y ago
          I love seeing a diversified HR department. Generally this means everyone gets a fair shake.
• jamilb 15y ago
  Not that I disagree, but I wonder if having a reserved personality has more to do with being disrespected than the gender. I know lots of women who I wouldn't dare make jabs at. Similarly, many of my submissive male friends get pushed around more so than my female ones. Thoughts?
• aklemm 15y ago
  Do you think reaching some critical mass of female developers (say 20%) will help prevent the problem? Perhaps an industry goal of reaching 20% female developers would be worthwhile (who would set such a goal?) These problems also exist in the boardroom and some have pointed out that it takes 3 women at the table in order for the rest of the room to treat them fairly. If it's just one, she's sidelined. If it's two, then they're seen as just teaming up with each other, but three makes them legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the group. Perhaps larger groups of developers can make sure to have at least 3 women on the team to help eliminate issues.
  • sek 15y ago
    The other factor is the stereotype in our media culture, look how Hollywood still pictures Nerds and technically versatile Women. A women who is good with computers and not a confident sexy goddess is automatically a looser.
    • Drbble 15y ago
      In pop media, everyone not a confident sexy god/goddess is a loser.
• daenz 15y ago
  Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have a healthy mind and continue to be around that kind of behavior, you have to grow a thicker skin.
  • tptacek 15y ago
    You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it. Thanks, internet message board guy.
    • daenz 15y ago
      > Your "hopefully that won't come across as sexist" bit, by the way, belittles the concern. It's not just her concern; it's my concern too, and you've belittled it. I'm sorry if you feel that way. Someone "getting the shaft" is a common phrase. When I typed it, I realized that it had obvious masculine connotations, so I thought I'd point that out with a smiley face. The rest of my response should make it more than obvious that I took her concern and health seriously.
      • scott_s 15y ago
        The rest of my response should make it more than obvious that I took her concern and health seriously. It doesn't, unfortunately. That's the problem with mixed signals: they're mixed. For the record, if you realize ahead of time that a word or saying will have an unintentional double meaning in a context that you don't want, find another way of saying it.
    • 15y ago
• georgieporgie 15y ago
  Well said. I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old manchildren.
  • pagekalisedown 15y ago
    Manchildren indeed. I think the worse manchildren are found in the game industry.
  • Shivetya 15y ago
    Wait till you come across the thumpers, we have one, his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category. Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?
    • bh42222 15y ago
      Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful?Still, why would you want someone as a manager who would keep his own wife's car locked up at work because she failed to be properly respectful? What in the hell kind of place are you working at!?
    • alanh 15y ago
      Curious here: I assume a “thumper” is short for a “Bible thumper”? And what do you mean by “his only saving grace from being shown the door is that he falls into a different category”?
      • pinkton 15y ago
        I thought it was a reference to domestic violence, but I suppose it could be a reference to religiously "justified" domestic violence.
  • jonstjohn 15y ago
    I studied (and loved) Physics during my undergraduate education, but left it sophomore year because Physics 200 was filled with immature (seemingly) teenage boys with no social skills. I was looking for a broader experience. Tried biology (study of life, better male/female ratio), studied abroad in China, then graduated with a degree in Religion. It took me quite a few years to start working in software development, which I love, and brought me back to my analytic roots. Sometimes I wish I would have stuck with Physics, but had a lot of great experiences in the world on the path I chose. So, I can relate to not always jiving with the software culture, but I'm definitely sticking with it b/c it is what I love doing - and I have found a really great community in it despite some of the short-comings.
• deleted 15y ago
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  • tptacek 15y ago
    This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.
    • sgt 15y ago
      He's actually got a point. She may be victimizing herself and blowing this way out of proportion. There are plenty of guys out there also taking "shit" from co-workers but biting the bullet and rather coming up with a witty response than shutting themselves in.
      • j_baker 15y ago
        I'm a guy who's taken "shit" from co-workers before, and it's no fun. Rather than keep coming up with witty retorts, it's usually best just to get out of the situation entirely.
      • daenz 15y ago
        I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.
        • logjam 15y ago
          Oh. Your proposed solution to sexual harassment or racial harassment or harassment in general was to tell the victim to "grow a thicker skin" That was what you wanted us to learn from your contributions to the thread. Thanks. It's pretty clear exactly who has the problem.
          • daenz 15y ago
            You should grow a thicker skin as well. Getting so riled up over HN comments isn't healthy :)
• deleted 15y ago
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• Tichy 15y ago
  Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely possible for male people to be in crappy jobs and having to look for something better. So is the corollary of the article that all possible jobs for female programmers suck?
  • deleted 15y ago
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  • tptacek 15y ago
    Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this? No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what are you really arguing about here? She pointed out a lot of sexist bullshit she had to deal with. The low-cut-dress thing was just one of them. Are you now a little more alert to the fact that what you might have thought was an innocuous joke actually made a teammate feel like they have a target on their back? I am! I thought to myself, "wow, I can imagine people I've worked with in the past who would say something like that; holy shit, I might have even laughed!". Maybe you too? Then she did you a favor by speaking up. It'd be good if people would stop expecting the Magna Carta from posts like this.
    • Tichy 15y ago
      What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one. Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happened to me a lot of times already. Perhaps others are more in a "heck, I'll change this place to suit me" frame of mind. I never understood that notion, or perhaps I am just too pessimistic about the ability of "places" to change. I reckon if you don't like how company x operates, find a better job or start your own company so that YOU can define the rules.
• bh42222 15y ago
  I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same. And can we ever hope to get 100% of any large group anywhere, to never make occasionally offensive remarks? The crux here really is that this type of offensive remarks have only one target - women, and that combined with the lop-sided sex ratio results in harassment.
  • ajross 15y ago
    Sorry, but if one person in 30 is being a jerk, that is a steady stream of subtle harassment. Most professionals deal with what, 60 people on a weekly basis? That's two jerks every week. And your math is off. Even if there was only one woman in tech anywhere, reducing 100% male interaction to 50% male interaction would only decrease the jerk count by a factor of two.
    • bh42222 15y ago
      I don't know about you, but I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman. And we wouldn't reduce male interaction by 50%, we would increase female participation by hundreds of percents. That way if someone is being a jerk, many people can all confirm he's being a jerk.
      • stcredzero 15y ago
        ...I deal with jerks all of the damn time. But luckily no more or less than all of my peers. This would be very different if I was a woman. Indeed. Jerks like this often associate in groups. As a result, women sometimes find themselves in a bizarro social context where their inferiority is just a good joke and the resulting humiliation is considered something like a blow for truth and "good clean fun." That way if someone is being a jerk, many people can all confirm he's being a jerk. Since women are such a minority in tech, they are sometimes subject to this sort of mob scene. Unless you've been in those shoes, it would be difficult to understand.
• alanh 15y ago
  Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?
  • kcunning 15y ago
    Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it. If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky to put off the ones above.
    • alanh 15y ago
      Feel free to link up that post! And thanks for replying. I think I have mostly seen the subversive-snark variety and just kind of laughed and moved on, so that’s good to hear.
    • maco 15y ago
      I like to non-verbally snark, by breaking people's brains. I wear long skirts all the time, and sometimes I cover my hair. So I must be traditionalist/conservative, right? No, I just don't like how jeans are all about objectifying my butt and also never fit right. Some of my coverings keep my hair nicely off the back of my neck in the summer, others let me have pretty flowy fabric (I like textiles). I'm pretty clearly not a booth babe with that skirt though, so maybe I'm a girlfriend? Oh wait, the shirt I'm wearing is from an Ubuntu Developer Summit. Hmm... Wait, but I'm knitting, back to the girlfriend idea, maybe? Oh nevermind, this is too confusing, how about talking instead of trying to guess? I have noticed, btw, that a large portion of female developers knit or crochet. Maybe it's because knitting & crochet patterns look a lot like code, complete with for-loops and while-loops. Also, ya know, make a scarf, make a website, make a pie...make stuff!
• squadron 15y ago
  Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things? If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.
  • bh42222 15y ago
    Because being young does not mean you have to be immature, and sexism should have nothing do with either immaturity and youth.
    • deleted 15y ago
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    • moxiemk1 15y ago
      And indeed - by declaring yourself mature enough to handle a startup at a young age, you're also declaring yourself mature enough to act like a human being. Young people in prominent settings shouldn't get a free pass - if you want to be in the "big leagues", you've got to act like you belong there.
      • Drbble 15y ago
        OK, but millionaire CEOs and invented the Old Boys Club, so what does success in business have to do with egalitarian respectful behavior toward all?
  • benatkin 15y ago
    That's an unsubstantiated claim. I don't think it's true. From what I've heard about the YC interview and decision-making process I think they place a high value on maturity. The ones I've met have fun but don't have rockstar attitudes. Also the awkwardness she's talking about doesn't come only from having a big ego. It's from constantly saying a single asinine statement. The person saying it often doesn't mean for it to have the effect it does.
• doki_pen 15y ago
  I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience? One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse. I'm sure she has a better idea of what her boss meant when he asked, but it makes me wonder if she has become oversensitive after so many bad experiences. I hope not.
  • ootachi 15y ago
    On the contrary, this happens all the time in startups. Think about it: a lot of startups consist of early 20-something males running everything.
    • hellerbarde 15y ago
      oh, wow, yeah, i never thought about it that way. good point!
  • tptacek 15y ago
    Are we talking about the same startup field that puts people on stages at conferences with slide decks full of half naked women? In any case: she's not asking for a holy jihad. She's not claiming to be the victim of a violent crime. All that needs to happen is for people to stop telling her to "lighten up".
    • deleted 15y ago
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  • itg 15y ago
    This is just my experience, but the corporate jobs I worked at take sexual harassment much more seriously than startups. One comment and you will be sent straight to HR.
• klausa 15y ago
  You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's cool to say things like that. As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. But it's really hard to break this habit, and this "Hey, it's just meaningless joke, right?!" line of thought. I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself. On a similar note - I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard, and I mostly learned to don't do that, but my... instinct that was ingrained in me by society tells me otherwise. I find myself struggling to suppress my subconscious mind in this regard, and frankly, I don't know how I can help it. Edit for clarity: I don't have problem with such posts being written and upvoted, quite opposite actually, I'm glad they are written and read. I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.
  • pippy 15y ago
    Admittedly I did the exact same thing as you, right down to the same quote. Most male dominated fields of work behave like this - it's a reflection of subtle rules society that we're taught at a young age. We can try to patch it over but it might cut deeper than just culture, it maybe simply inherently biological the behavior of men around a single female.
    • Cushman 15y ago
      Well, first off, this is definitely not an inherent biological thing. There is a large population of (straight, sexually active) men who have no difficulty treating women in social and professional settings as peers rather than sexual objects. If you find that you have difficulty doing this, then you are literally a part of the problem with our community that we are discussing, and you should be spending a non-trivial amount of your time learning to manage your disability. And I mean that-- it's something that you grew up with, it's a problem, we're all here together to help you through it. But first you need to admit that it's something you have to fix.
• mhartl 15y ago
  "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference. Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore. N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.
  • daenz 15y ago
    Amen. Don't let the downvotes bother you, you're seeing 100% clearly and not blinded by the irrationality that seems to be filling this thread.
  • InclinedPlane 15y ago
    It used to be acceptable to use the N-word in the workplace. Casually. With seriousness. Things change. Fuck acceptance.
    • mhartl 15y ago
      Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.
      • InclinedPlane 15y ago
        How do you know you lack sufficient power to effect change if you don't try?
• kpanghmc 15y ago
  My non-programmer friends and family are always bewildered when I tell them that I hope my daughter doesn't grow up to be a programmer. The reason why is because I'm afraid her life would be like the OP's. There is indeed a subtle sexism in our industry. That's why things like yesterday's Sqoot screwup happen so frequently. Of course, every workplace is different and I'm sure there are plenty of places where women don't have to deal with the bullshit described in this article. However, they are far from the norm. I can see why the OP would want to leave the industry rather than be the person constantly reporting people to HR and lecturing them about proper behavior. It may be the right thing to do, but it's also extremely uncomfortable and just as likely to create an even more hostile working environment than before.
• b_emery 15y ago
  As an employee of the University of California, I'm compelled to take annual sexual harassment training, that is, how to identify situations and behaviors that constitute sexual harassment as it has been legally defined. A lot of what was mentioned in the post and in the comments here would be regarded as reportable offenses, if not prosecutable offenses. People should know the law - this stuff can get you in real trouble. If you're in California, this might apply [pdf]: http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_labor_relations/sexual_harassment_policies/sh_policy.pdf http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_la... If you're not in California, but you're running a business you may find it quite interesting, eg: Sexual harassment is unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects a person’s employment or education, unreasonably interferes with a person’s work or educational performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive working or learning environment. ... This policy covers unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.
  • mturmon 15y ago
    All the above is true. Incidentally, according to interpretations of US and CA law, it is OK to do things like (politely) ask a co-worker out on a date. But, if they say no, you are supposed to get the hint, and if you continue to ask, you're opening yourself up to charges of harassment. From the training I took, my understanding is that if the low-cut dress comment or comments like it was repeated in the presence of a manager, the manager would have to act in some way. (A manager has a duty to not allow a "hostile work environment".) Depending on the specifics of who was at the meeting, it does not matter that the person in the dress didn't mind, because it's not just about conduct a specific person finds unwelcome, it's about a hostile work environment. Some people up-thread are more in the wrong about this than they seem to realize.
  • robertskmiles 15y ago
    This is true but pretty unhelpful. The problem is that involving official proceedings or the law almost always looks like overkill. In the aggregate, these events amount to a very serious problem, but individually each one doesn't feel like enough to be worth making it official. Nobody wants to be known as "the person who got someone fired for a comment about a dress", even if they were totally justified. Even normal, decent people are going to be wary of you if you end up with that reputation, deserved or undeserved. That's the essence of the problem I think. It's a big problem, but it's hard to do anything about it without being seen to be overreacting.
• kitsune_ 15y ago
  I hate those "lighten up" comments. Bullies just love that phrase. Put someone down and when they push back, "ah gee, lighten up, it was just a joke". It's extremely cowardly and disgusting and reminiscent of prepubescent school yard antics. Many women have to put up with such shit on a regular basis.
• desireco42 15y ago
  I just can't relate to this post. I can't say you are inventing things, but maybe change companies a little, discover something different, don't just complain. As consultant I see quite a lot of different companies and believe I have good idea what can be seen. I am annoyed by childish behavior of my colleagues, this has nothing to do with me being able to handle it, just I would like to work somewhere where I don't have to deal with it all the time. Also, some female colleagues left field because constant learning was just too much for them and they wanted someplace where they don't have to invest so much of them. Totally reasonable. Again, can't relate to what you are describing and your description is in no way characteristic for IT, it might be corporate lack of culture in your workplace.
  • hythloday 15y ago
    Sorry to play the HN etiquette bot, but you're being downvoted because you basically replied to a post saying, "don't dismiss my concerns when you don't share them" by dismissing her concerns because you don't share them.
    • desireco42 15y ago
      No, I said that as consultant who was in a number of companies, I didn't see behavior she describes. It is not the rule, but exception and not characteristic for IT, which is pretty much what she is implying. And you are being a jerk :) for downvoting, thank you very much.
      • hythloday 15y ago
        And you are being a jerk :) for downvoting, thank you very much. I didn't downvote you. But, um, thanks for calling me a jerk anyway?
      • natep 15y ago
        Exactly. You don't share her concerns (or experiences). Your nonrandom sample of companies has yielded different results than her nonrandom sample. How about that. Have a cookie.
• paulhauggis 15y ago
  Have you ever worked in an office with all women? I did and the sexism and comments are worse because they know they can get away with it. Our world has become too politically correct. At one of my jobs, they brought all of the developers into a room and said that "something somebody said was offensive and we needed to watch our language". We're adults, not kids at school..but it sure doesn't feel like it because people seem to want to get another person fired if they are offended in any way. The result is that we can't be honest.
  • stfu 15y ago
    That took some scrolling until I found a reasonable comment. Thanks for this. The other aspect is: Groups will always bond together in one way or another and emphasize their "superiority" over some other group. May it be because of gender, race, political views, intellectual views or just sports teams. The only difference I noticed from sometimes working with almost exclusive female teams is, that they are smarter in regards to "testing the water", i.e. those who don't share their sense of humor and are unable to cope with less appropriate remarks get isolate pretty fast. But I never understood why people get sensitive over things like these. In fact I would argue that the more something is a high pressure environment, the less PC the environment becomes.
  • MartinCron 15y ago
    It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors, slide rules, and mocked your condescending whiny voice, would that not be offensive?
    • paulhauggis 15y ago
      "It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group." This isn't true. When my co-workers have gotten into political discussions that were completely against my beliefs, I could have easily gotten offended. But you know what? I don't, because I'm an adult. Some people are going to say things you may not like. Just ignore them. "It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group." Women mostly work in Nursing and as teachers. If I were to go into either of these fields, I still wouldn't whine to my superiors about something my co-worker said or how they made me feel bad. "If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors, slide rules, and mocked your condescending whiny voice, would that not be offensive?" No, I would laugh. You need to be proud of what you are. I'm confident enough to know that a little mockery won't hurt me. Every company I have ever worked for has been so paranoid about sexual harassment and offending people I seriously doubt it happens as much as people would like us to believe. "What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings?" Why is it that in any conversation, the people that claim to be against discrimination bring up things like this? I don't agree with what you posted, but we should have the freedom to express our opinions. I'm tired of people trying to legislate personal opinions away. It's opinions like yours that allow special interest groups to get power in this country.
• DanielBMarkham 15y ago
  I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences. I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by the emotional heartstrings. I reserve moral outrage for things like millions of people starving around the world, or slavery, or hundreds of millions dying of disease. Others are certainly capable of being moved by whatever they desire, but I find more harm being done by actual people dying than by the compound personality flaws of millions of my fellow citizens. I don't mean that to be insensitive. Like I said, I am in complete agreement that this goes on and it must stop. Immediately. I'm just saying from prior experience I find that discussions like this never tend to go anywhere productive.
  • wpietri 15y ago
    I think these kinds of discussions are immensely productive even when they don't appear to go anywhere. For a lot of people, these things are subtle and hard to process. It takes time and repetition for them to understand and acknowledge the problem, let alone become part of the solution. Sexism is taking generations to sort out, so it's unsurprising that we can't see a difference in the course of a single discussion. But I believe that without discussion, we'll see no progress at all.
  • sangfroid 15y ago
    I'm one of the women who don't share her feelings. Maybe it's the word sexism that I have a problem with. I'm not a programmer and I don't know the specific environment that she described, but I'm a female motorcyclist and I've worked in lots of kitchens and a couple in molecular biology labs. I know the behavior and I've dealt with it. Men behave in curious ways when there's a low female/male ratio, but in my experience, half of it comes out of awkwardness or plain old stupidity on the other side. Some of the more honest comments on this thread testify to that. The other half is intended to belittle. But seriously, this isn't just at work. This is walking down the street in the city. This is buying something in the store. This is sitting on the bus. And as much as it sucks, getting offended doesn't help. If this sounds like a long winded "lighten up," please think of it more as a friendly "toughen up." It's the only way to signal the change that you want.
• mhartl 15y ago
  It appears that virtually all comments expressing even mild criticism of the OP are being downvoted with a vengeance. Groupthink is alive and well here on HN. If you want to know what a member of the Thought Police looks like, find a mirror.
  • MartinCron 15y ago
    Sure, it could be group-think and thought police, or it could be reasonable people finding a consensus. In media studies there's the idea of the circle of consensus (everyone agrees with the notion that slavery and rape and child abuse are bad) and outside of that is the area of legitimate controversy. ("Does Keynesian economics actually work?" "should states mandate that people wear motorcycle helmets?" whatever). Outside of that is the lunatic fringe ("Show me the birth certificate!" or "Dick Cheney was a Hitler Youth") It seems that in this community, the statement "yeah, maybe these chicks really should just lighten up" is outside the area of legitimate controversy. As it should be.
    • mhartl 15y ago
      "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... [Should I] go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him? Do you think that potentially firing someone for making such a comment is part of a reasonable consensus? Or is it something about which reasonable people can disagree?
      • MartinCron 15y ago
        I think the consensus is that the comment is not appropriate for a professional context. As far as firing goes? I personally wouldn't fire someone for the first bullshit sexist remark, but I would make it perfectly clear that the next bullshit sexist comment would be the last one. I am not sure where the reasonable consensus is around that issue. I personally care more about the victim than the perpetrator.
      • BenOfTomorrow 15y ago
        I read that as potentially firing someone as an expected outcome, not a desired/optimal one. HR is short for CYA. Clearly the author is hesitant to report it because of that outcome.
• mtrimpe 15y ago
  Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.' The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriate.' You see, men don't have a clue as to how group dynamics work. Women do and have been trained in this from childhood on as it is their 'arena' just as much as the sports field is ours. When we enter the workforce however, suddenly 'fair' means fighting like it happens on the sports field, 'fair' means fighting the boys' fight. In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.' When I finally accepted that this was bullshit, everything turned around for me. Whenever someone did something like this to me, over the next few days several of his allies would get a quick visit from me with some nice small-talk and a little one-liner thrown in about how X hurt me by doing Y. Within days X would find himself somewhat more alienated, perhaps reprimanded slightly by one of his peers about Y, left to wonder what he did wrong. Over time it was as if a subconscious message spread across the workfloor: "You'd better respect me. If you don't your life will become a lot harder and you'll have no idea how the fuck it happened." Now for everyone who reads this and thinks my description of this is disgusting, please understand that I'm merely able to describe it this way as I've had the fairly unique perspective of having been a part of both 'worlds.' From a woman's perspective an in-depth analysis of mens' quest for dominance would sound equally messed up. Just like very few men understand a woman's world, very few women understand a man's world. TL;DR; Men and women establish hierarchies in different ways. Women have been taught their way is inappropriate in business. They should do it anyhow. P.S. Funnily enough, after I started dating a girl and 'became straight,' the women on the floor suddenly started calling me out on this behavior and nudged me back into the 'male hierarchy.'
  • spindritf 15y ago
    > men don't have a clue as to how group dynamics work Do you think that those thousands upon thousands of (male) political leaders who climbed to the very tops of their social hierarchies -- from Crassus to Clinton, over thousands of years -- got there by pure luck without understanding how group dynamics work? How to make and break alliances? How to inform on their competitors? Open competitiveness and overt dominance won out in our culture because they worked, not because alternatives were unavailable to men. Those traits allow to create stable organizations which went on and conquered the world, often literally. There's nothing stopping men from mastering intrigue, it's just very destructive, much more so than competitiveness and dominance, even fistfights will damage the group less than constant shifting and mind games.
• kevinalexbrown 15y ago
  As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addressed as soon as they happen - if you're in a meeting and your boss asks you to 'please pull up your blouse because your wonderful breasts are distracting everyone' you can much more easily address it right then and there. But if your boss asks you to take notes, the first couple of times it happens, it could just as well be random (though it isn't, really). It is much harder to say 'no, not taking notes, you only want me to do that because I'm a woman' even when it's true. What's worse is that even when you do notice a pattern, it's harder to address than a rude remark. It's (a) hard to prove it was because of your sex as opposed to some other aspect of your personality ('maybe he thinks you're just good at organizing potlucks, sheesh' - 'you took notes that first time so well!') and (b) behavior is much harder to correct when you have to point out things that happened in the past. 'I take notes 50% of the time, in a group of 5' just doesn't seem to have the same effect on humans, especially in a society where intent is often judged above effect. I'm not a woman, but this is what it seems to me, from what I've observed. edit: I can't find the study I was looking for, but they had a group of people evaluate two sets of identical resumes, with female and male names, for 'competence' and 'likeability'. For males, competence was correlated with likeability, but for females it was anticorrelated, even though the resumes were identical. Less people will think you an 'ice queen' if you call out an inappropriate remark, but countering the above form of sexism seems far more difficult to do while preserving 'likeability' -- 'what's the big deal, I just asked her to take notes!' If anyone else knows where the study is, I would be grateful.
  • mechanical_fish 15y ago
    It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.
• yelsgib 15y ago
  I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working in a job where they can just do what they like - program - and a woman comes along with all those pheremones and everything. And yes he acts awkward and crazy because holy shit there is a WOMAN who does what he does. I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell. Do you really think the man who said: "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" is a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Hmmm? Where's the compassion for him? Why is our reaction to superficial wrongdoing so fucking immediate and moralistic? As if he's not a person with his own problems? I'm at a loss for words, this whole clusterfuck makes me so angry.
  • InclinedPlane 15y ago
    Being a victim is no excuse to victimize others.
    • yelsgib 15y ago
      There is no "nexus" of victimhood. I'm saying that we're hyper-focusing on one particular form of suffering.
  • flatline 15y ago
    I agree that the guy is probably suffering from his own insecurities, but the bottom line is that he allowed his issues to place him in a situation of antagonizing a co-worker, probably without any repercussions, which speaks to a general climate of discrimination against women in the workplace. Still, some of your other points are interesting and I feel are valid in a larger context. Zen monasteries in Japan were segregated - women were a minority anyway, probably to a very large extent, but there were women monks, and they were generally not allowed much interaction with the male monks. All discipline among the males fell apart when a woman was in their presence, as the culture really gave them no background for normal interactions between the sexes. The head monks chose to sidestep the problem -- what could they possibly do to address the ills of the society at large?
• richardk 15y ago
  It's bizarre, I'm sure if I made any of those comments to women at university I would quickly become pretty unpopular. So is this just a problem of the previous generation or a problem specific to the workplace? I really do feel for the author, I can't imagine how awful it must be to put up with that kind of thing everyday.
• jberryman 15y ago
  Kind of meta, but I've noticed two things from this thread 1) I think I always imagine everyone here as a man, unless they identify themselves otherwise or I notice their username suggests they're female, and 2) reading the female voices here really gave me the sense of HN as a much richer, more interesting community
  • maco 15y ago
    I do #1 backwards because LinuxChix was my introduction to the world of online tech communities.
• mikecane 15y ago
  The guy sees the "one joke." He doesn't see that to her it's the billionth-and-one "joke." Bukowski put it best: "The Shoelace" http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.html http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.h... Attention my fellow men: Just STFU unless you are reading stupid jokes from a bad sitcom script before a camera for TV.
• Swizec 15y ago
  Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys? Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together. I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls.
  • chromatic 15y ago
    ... it's what we do to fit in... If you quite obviously don't share some obvious and dominant characteristic of a group, repeated reminders that You. Don't. Fit. In. are frustrating and demotivating, at best.
  • wpietri 15y ago
    Treating them like one of the guys can be fine. But if you're calling attention to their tits (as in the "low-cut dress" comment in the article), then you're definitely not treating them like one of the guys.
  • xibernetik 15y ago
    It's not the same level at all. Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls in a technical industry is like telling a woman to go back to the kitchen when she's a chef. Telling a guy to stick to computers because he sucks at talking to girls when his job is to run and promote a female-targeted wedding convention is a little closer to the mark. As a female, getting told "stick to computers, you suck at flirting" when you're technically-inclined is a lot less offensive than "go back to the kitchen" -- not to mention that the first is a jab related to observation of an individual (presumably there isn't a stereotype that all men suck at talking to women) rather than a jab related to your chromosomes. It's exacerbated by the fact it's highlighting "something here doesn't belong with the others~...".
  • briancurtin 15y ago
    > go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls Why is "go back to the kitchen" on the same level? My girlfriend can't cook and wants nothing to do with it, let alone the fact that the phrase has been a stereotype actively used to demean the gender for a very long time. Ribbing someone by telling them to stick with something they're actually active in and good at is really on the same level as a gender-wide stereotype?
• lifeisstillgood 15y ago
  Will Schumpter win out here? Presumably in a perfect labour market competant women will leave companies like this and go work for the non sexist competition I believe that will be true for companies that do not embrace for example lean product discovery or software as transformative. But I just don't think the labour Market is really perfect enough to make this kind of difference but even so, start looking at jobsites. You won't change them, and if you leave for good reasons, good employers will understand.
  • drostie 15y ago
    Cass R. Sunstein in Free Markets and Social Justice offers a chapter with an interesting perspective called "Why Markets Don't Stop Discrimination." The book is actually one of the more readable economics works I've seen, and the author gives a more in-depth account of why competitive markets would normally be believed to work the way you're saying you expect them to work. The basic idea is that even if you operate in a competitive market, your customers and associates may not: and due to this, competitive markets can sometimes only float the ball to some socially-appropriate level. So, let's talk about someone who stops doing business with you because they know your programmers are female and they hold some subconscious belief that female code is of lower quality. (I mean, if you called them on it they would say "no, of course not!" but somewhere deep inside they'd prefer the familiar and they discriminate institutionally rather than individually.) Now your incentives to discriminate are bound up in a complex: that complex contains their tastes, and what they're willing to pay to get a product which tastes right to them. If they're in a very competitive market they might not be able to afford any overhead, but if they're a personal user, or they are turning a profit, they get to choose based on their tastes alone and then your financial incentive is to also institutionally discriminate. The whole point is that discrimination might be "economically rational" while nondiscrimination might be "social justice" and therefore they can come at odds -- which is more or less the topic of the book. I found it an interesting idea.
  • Alex3917 15y ago
    No, because of the marriage monopsony (among other reasons). Because most women choose to live where their husbands live, they will essentially never be able to command the same wages or working conditions as men (under the current system) because the employers have significantly more power than what a competitive market would otherwise dictate.
• Nattefrost 15y ago
  I gotta say I do not feel at all sorry for her. Why? Because I live in Sweden and here the women are always at the center of the light. No one cares about problems related to men any more. If she'd live in Sweden that would probably never happened since Sweden is the Saudi Arabia for feminism.
• rokhayakebe 15y ago
  To every person going through a similar situation, I apologize on behalf of Men, and I guarantee you not all of us are like such.
  • natep 15y ago
    If only it were possible to apologize for someone else. However, that is not the case, as you are not the ultimate cause of their actions (their own brains are), so you can only apologize for what you do.
  • monochromatic 15y ago
    You do not speak for me.
    • rokhayakebe 15y ago
      I apologize for thinking we share the same values.
      • monochromatic 15y ago
        I apologize for your mistake also.
• javascriptlol 15y ago
  The problem with these posts is that we only hear the horror stories. We get a sensational picture of constant harassment from one unlucky person. Most of what was written here was outright harassment. In many places it would be seen as outright illegal for the company to allow this to continue. I take issue with complaining about "subtle" sexism, however. Life is not fair for men either. In fact, unfairness is universal in life for reasons that are out of anybody's control. By pushing for unobtainable fairness, you are training people to expect fairness, which is disabling. Boys are attacked by other boys in school. You are constantly tested by other males for signs of fear. Big deal. It toughens you up for later life. Gender "equality" in many ways has become just another production output to be maximised without regard to secondary costs.
  • antiterra 15y ago
    We're not talking about "life" in any sort of universal context. Whatever 'female privilege' you can try to conjure up in general is largely irrelevant to this very specific setting: a technology profession. Is it really unobtainable to not tend towards choosing the woman to be the head of the potluck or to take notes just because she's a woman? Is it really that unobtainable to not make jokes about PMS or breasts? We're in a really sad state if it's impossible to go to work and not do those things, and a sadder one if those things are so important people will fight for the ability to do them.
    • javascriptlol 15y ago
      You are painting these things as universal. If there were some rule about women and potlucks I'd care. As it is, there is not. I have never even seen a potluck in the workplace! There are much bigger, structural problems to worry about right now. It's like we're on a boat with a hole in the bottom and every interest group is complaining that their feet are getting wetter than all the others. We wouldn't have this problem if the environment were more conducive to smaller businesses - women could avoid these problems by becoming their own bosses. Instead of escaping our entrapments we are arguing for better conditions in the prison.
      • 15y ago
• delinka 15y ago
  I agree this is a problem. But it's not one-sided. I work (part time, not IT) in an environment where it's perfectly OK to generalize and joke about how men are assholes or idiots. I'm no writer, and I'm not about to attempt writing a post about the situation. I've been around enough that I can shrug it off at the end of the day, but in the moment it's beyond annoying and approaching degrading.
  • ChristianMarks 15y ago
    I haven't found this in academia as much as in bureaucratic office culture. At one bank where I once had the displeasure of working, one woman manager liked to make disparaging remarks about the physiques of her male subordinates. She was an acquaintance of a well-known action star and used him as the basis for her invidious comparisons. I thought this treatment was completely unnecessary. Joking about men being idiots is sexist (or misandrist), but I'm beginning to wonder whether the unfairness consists in excluding one half of the population of the working environments in which this assessment is commonly made. OK just kidding, "lighten up." (I hate that phrase.)
• scarmig 15y ago
  What a trainwreck of a comments section. If your immediate knee-jerk response is to try to point out why it's her fault without reflecting on her points, you're part of the problem.
• kirpekar 15y ago
  "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.
  • ckpwong 15y ago
    Honestly, I'm OK with the first part of the comment. It's the latter part which irks (most) people. Had it been "Katie's got the low cut dress on today! Going out tonight?" then I think it's acceptable.
• nikatwork 15y ago
  My wife puts up with this all the time. She is an assertive and decisive businessperson, but is labelled "abrasive" and "a bitch" because she isn't meek, submissive and soft-spoken. The same behavior in males is encouraged and rewarded. My parent's generation moved us past overt sexism; our generation needs to move us past subtle sexism. Otherwise, we are still wasting a large part of our human potential.
  • ericb 15y ago
    My wife deals with this too. I think, if I were ever a woman, I'd have to go with "being a bitch" because it is often the only way not to get walked over and keep your self respect.
• OneBytePerGreen 15y ago
  Dunno. I'm a woman, and I think that blog poster needs to lighten up. I've worked in IT for years - usually as the only woman on the team - and I've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. Maybe slight prejudices in the beginning when the guys think I'm not as good as them, but I enjoy proving them wrong. There is banter, and sometimes it's not 100% HR approved, but I've never felt that it was mean spirited or intended to put me down. I've found that by and large, computer engineers are super-nice, funny, and respectful towards women. The comment about the guy noticing her low-cut dress and wanting to sit near her... not entirely appropriate, but is this really bad enough to run to HR and complain? That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing attention with my clothes, so I would never wear something low-cut. I find that a lightweight cotton dress shirt is more comfortable than a tight, low-cut top anyway. If someone asked me to arrange a pot-luck or bring them coffee, it would simply not be happening. I'm on the East Coast though. Maybe all the disrespectful frat boy "brogrammers" are working on the West Coast?
  • briancurtin 15y ago
    You think she needs to lighten up because you haven't had the same experiences and you have different ideas of comfortable clothing?
    • OneBytePerGreen 15y ago
      I mean "lighten up" as in, she perceives "a million little barbs" around her and sees herself as the victim of sexism lurking everywhere. She didn't just criticize one company or co-worker, but the whole industry. Her post is a torrent of rhetorical questions, exclamation points, hyperbole, and quotes she ascribes to her co-workers that likely never happened. Do you really think someone responded to her concerns with "if you are not in the middle of being raped or beaten or threatened or fired, lighten up"? To make such sweeping statements about the industry, I presume she was not happy at her job, changed jobs, and the same thing happened again, and again, to the point where she left the industry altogether, discouraged. Which is weird, given that I changed jobs often myself and never had such experiences. Two sentences gave me the most pause. One being, "Which label do I want to be stuck with today? Ice Queen or Slut?" It makes me think this is more about herself than the people around her. The other weird comment was that she loves coding and "spent thousands of dollars to go to conferences so I can learn more about it." All excellent IT people I know learn stuff hands-on by playing around with technologies and studying on their own. Maybe there are other reasons why she felt stuck doing inferior tasks. If you are crucial to the team's success, nobody treats you like the "secretary who we let on the server" or a personal assistant, regardless of your gender. I hope that the discussion of this topic doesn't make men paranoid about saying anything around women, because the fun and banter is one of the things that makes working in IT so enjoyable.
• jiggy2011 15y ago
  To be fair though, I've worked in places that were 70/80% female before and I was usually the first person they asked when they needed something heavy moved. Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.
  • msbarnett 15y ago
    > Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc. Assuming that, because she's a woman, she'd be better suited to note-taking is the definition of sexism.
    • jiggy2011 15y ago
      except in this instance it wasn't an assumption , it was a fairly obvious fact.
      • natep 15y ago
        There is nothing fairly obvious (or, probably, factual) about women being better note-takers than men. Certainly not to the extent that it's better for someone to automatically ask the woman to take notes, rather than say 'who here is good at taking notes?' and if nobody responds, cycling through everyone, and then having the group decide whose notes are best (or something like that).
• evincarofautumn 15y ago
  I’m a bit loath to add to the already long discussion, and most of what I might address has already been thoroughly hashed out. However, as a bisexual male, perhaps I have a different perspective than most people here. Fact is, I’ve experienced sexual harassment just as much from women as from men. Who does it, in a given situation, depends only on who’s in power. In the male-dominated tech industry, that means men. But most people like to make sexual comments and advances sometimes, when we feel we can. And, unfortunately, that often make others feel rightly uncomfortable. It’s a sad paradox—one of the best ways to make the industry less hostile to women is to attract more women, to even the power balance. But women aren’t attracted to the industry because it’s so hostile in the first place.
• hengli 15y ago
  While subtle discrimination is really bad, how does she get from low cut dress to slut? That's surely something she came up with herself and nothing like that the guy intended. The guy certainly doesn't want her to wrap herself up in sweaters, why does she feel like that's how she should respond? I feel like there's a huge gulf between second and third wave feminists. Modern ones would find the above comment empowering, you only react in this way if you've been brought up in a society and culture that demeans female sexuality and teaches you that low cut dresses implies slutiness and so on.
  • natep 15y ago
    My interpretation is that she felt the low cut dress comment was derogatory (like the term slut), and that the man, by sitting across from her in order to sexualize her, thought he was doing what she (the slut) wanted ("why else do women dress nice?"). If she weren't a slut, then her dress would be a dress, and there would be no reason to call attention to it, especially not in that way. The guy doesn't want her to wrap herself in sweaters only because he wants to continue to objectify her, not because he sees her as a person that has the right to dress comfortably (as long as it's still appropriate). What's empowering about being a sexual object if you want to be a programmer?
• jroseattle 15y ago
  Katie, don't leave the field -- just find the right group to work with. It's the company you keep. Don't let everyone else dictate your life.
• dihard 15y ago
  How about .. embrace your femininity. The bigger the chip on our shoulder about being a chick in the workplace, the more we're told to "lighten up." Plan the potluck - isn't it fun to plan things? Take the notes - aren't you super organized and taking notes anyway? If given a demeaning comment - sincerely and gracefully refute it the first time, replacing it with a comment about the quality of your work. And, seriously, stop wearing revealing clothes to work - have some respect and save that for your spouse! This is not to diminish therealkatie's complaints, nor to say that every woman actually enjoys baking cookies, planning potlucks, or taking notes. I do, though, and I've never had a problem with respect.
  • wpietri 15y ago
    I don't think you can diminish somebody's complaints and then follow up with "this is not to diminish your complaints".
    • xentronium 15y ago
      "I am sorry that you felt offended"
• choros12 15y ago
  geeeezzz... I hate all these biased political correct people... guys why not to talk about having equal amount of male and female childcare professionals? Or coal miners? Sexes are NOT equal. Start dealing with reality. please.
• hzay 15y ago
  I'm a woman, this happens to me (not very often but that might be because I've worked in this industry only for two years) and whenever it does, I just say something horribly cold. One day I had a pretty watch on, and a male coworker said "That's such a come-hither watch". He was one of the most intelligent people I'd met, and it was painful to hear that come from him. I made an exception and tried to tell him that one might wear something pretty simply because they liked wearing it but I don't believe I got my point across. I don't think it's a reason to quit though. Everyone suffers from several disadvantages that others might not know about. For example, the guy above once complained that some american universities (like purdue university) prefer women candidates to improve their sex ratio, and that it's unfair. I don't want to tell you to stoically put up with this problem, but that's what I try to do.
  • cellularmitosis 15y ago
    "That's such a come-hither watch". Making objectifying comments in the workplace is wrong, no two ways about it. But because I don't have your context, this one jumped out at me as "could be interpreted in many ways". I'm curious if I can cajole a bit more context out of you? (because I've made my share of innocently-intended comments resulting in a situation going horribly awry, so I'm always looking to improve my appropriateness radar). Specifically, do you think it was A) an innocent/clueless comment, B) a "testing the waters" comment as a prelude to hitting on you, or C) outright hitting on you? A) Do you think he was just complimenting you on the watch? Particularly, I wonder because he made the comment about a thing, not about you. I.e., consider the difference between "that's a sexy skirt" and "you have a sexy ass". The later is clearly objectifying, but the former could be interpreted innocently or offensively, because its a comment about an object (although even the former is pretty risky -- you'd have to be very close friends with the person and be sure they'd understand your intent to feel safe making such a remark). B) Or perhaps he was "testing the waters"? I've notice that being labelled a "creep" actually has more to do with whether your attraction is unrequited, than whether the action was objectively creepy, and a "testing the waters" approach is one way to try and avoid being the office creepster. Unless of course even testing the waters is creepster material (I hope not...). C) or was he just flat-out being a slime ball?
• thomasdavis 15y ago
  Attack sexism, not humour! Please stop killing humour
• aptsurdist 15y ago
  I just want to say a sincere thank you for writing this. I hope the whole community will read this with an open mind and understand how important it is to be conscious of these subtleties.
  • reneherse 15y ago
    Hear hear.
• dazbradbury 15y ago
  Sounds like another argument for more people to read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"[1]: For the people making sexist comments, there are lots of interesting stories and points in there. But obviously you can't force people to read the book, and expect any difference! However, it is very applicable for the OP also. Take for example this overview of one chapter: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment: Begin with praise and honest appreciation. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders. Let the other person save face. Praise every improvement. Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct. Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...
• orderly_chaos 15y ago
  If you walk around alone in an unsafe neighborhood at night, you're asking for trouble. If you don't have a choice but to be in an unsafe neighborhood, hunker down and get to a point in your life when you can afford a safe neighborhood. In the programming world, this translates to : become a great programmer, and you will find yourself in a great programming environment (birds of a feather...). If you really love programming, you will get to that point eventually. Great programmers love programming, and love learning from other great programmers even more. That's why they'll never offend another great programmer or risk it all by indulging in bad behavior. (You can actually substitute "great programmer" here with "great any-profession". There might be exceptions, but in 15 years of programming, I haven't met any.) When you don't have these types of programmers around you, whats left is the (sub-)average programmer, and the concomitant sexist environment. Also, by wearing a low-cut blouse to a professional environment, you drive away those people who actually contribute to a good environment, leaving behind those that don't. Biologically, men's brains light up when they see a woman's cleavage. The people who value you as a programmer will avoid you, because they recognize what's going on in their heads, avoid the distraction, and the risk of offending you. Heck, some of them might not even look in your direction. My advice is the same one I give my daughters: wear a scarf - it prevents the over-heating problem you mentioned. Its the same reason I wear boxers, rather than walk around in shorts. You don't need to lighten up, just hunker down.
  • natep 15y ago
    I think that solving the problem of an unsafe neighborhood is much more intractable than solving sexism in the workplace. Mostly, this is because 'we' are not part of the culture in those unsafe neighborhoods. We are part of the tech culture. If we, as a culture/society/whatever can agree that this kind of behavior is unethical, unprofessional, and not welcome, then we can and should express our disapproval towards those who are sexist, or allow for sexism to be the problem it is. So, to me, you're saying that because we can't solve unsafe neighborhoods by calling out that undesirable behavior when we see it (which we can't), we shouldn't call out undesirable behavior in an unsafe work environment. Biologically, human minds do or want to do lots of things when presented with various stimuli. That doesn't mean it's OK for them to do it. I wonder if we're biologically inclined to victim-blame the way you just did...
• chojeen 15y ago
  I have to wonder if I'm just hanging out in the wrong circles or working at the wrong companies, because I've never seen anything even approaching some of the appalling examples in the article. Am I in the minority here? Note that I'm not denying that it happens; I've just never seen it personally. Disclaimer: I work for a midwestern branch of a major company based in California, and I've never worked in any of the major tech hubs.
• losvedir 15y ago
  This post raises two issues which everyone keeps conflating. I don't think we can have a productive discussion unless they're kept separate. The first issue is the "you should take notes" mindset. This one is unequivocally wrong. The second issue is the "low cut blouse" remark, which I feel is wrong only by social convention. Here's why the first issue is wrong: It implies that women don't belong in this line of work, that they can't do it effectively, and that they should get out. Factually wrong. The second issue is wrong largely by social convention, I think. It's natural for men and women to be attracted to others in the work place. It's hard to avoid. That said, by social convention we're not supposed to talk about it. Talking about it makes you seem creepy since you're flouting social convention and if you're willing to do that, what else are you willing to do....? However, if the underlying physiological response is not inappropriate (and I don't think it's fair to suggest that it's inappropriate -- it's how we're wired), then how could it be logically inappropriate to mention your feelings? I think our society has found that business proceeds best if we don't mention them and pretend we're not feeling them, but I could envision a culture along the lines of Radical Honesty where just bringing up how you feel isn't wrong. So, keep the issues separate and treat each appropriately. Implying women aren't able to do tech work? Absolutely wrong. Stop it. Indicating that a woman is attractive? Realize it's inappropriate because of how our society determined we should interact at work, not because it's inherently immoral, but still don't do it because it might make her feel uncomfortable.
• marquis 15y ago
  There's a real problem here that comes down to the status-quo of the office. Imagine your office of 100 people is 50% male/female, and a nice sampling of racial groups, sexualities and ages (I've had the fortune to work in such a place). What happens is that there is sufficient diversity and commonality between enough people of their varying interests, looks and views, that you find it completely unnecessary to make comments about what someone is wearing, or whether their gender deems them capable. I say again, the problem with the high-tech industry is there is simply not enough diversity. Now we can't fix this today or tomorrow, maybe not in 10 years, but you can certainly imagine that it's there. With any comment, consider what is appropriate given a hypothetical situation where there is a good balance of whatever-stereotype-you-are-addressing and go from there.
• jimmyjazz14 15y ago
  I am very glad this subject is being discussed here. The subtle sexism in the tech industry has always been disturbing to me as a man and I can only imagine how women must feel about it. Sexism in our industry is not only offensive it is counterproductive. It saddens me to think of the great female innovators that may be turned off from entering the industry because it is seen as unwelcoming to them.
• castillowl 15y ago
  Overly Sensitive.
• jarodym 15y ago
  "When asked, most men will gallantly express their admiration for women in general and profess a profuse love for their mates in particular. Despite these touching personal testimonials, society is rife with misogyny and patriarchy. A cursory glance at the current newspapers or television news reveals a global society in which the majority of men disdain women. While some cultures are more egalitarian than others, men's actions suggest that they believe firmly in their superiority over women. -Leonard Schlain (Sex, Time, and Power)
• didip 15y ago
  When I managed my team, I bought gallons of beers for everyone. With my own money, and handing the beers myself to my peers (In this example I'm using beer-time as substitute for potluck). Of course I did ask for reimbursement through the company and the company did approve, but that's not the point. The act of doing potluck is supposed to raise morale. Whoever manager in charge should organize the potluck him/herself for maximum boost of morale. Telling others to do potluck is so lame. Telling someone else to take note is equally lame.
• strix_varius 15y ago
  Would you enjoy working with this author, regardless of gender? I work on a small team - just over 20 people - with only four women. Every single one is a hilarious, self-possessed, confident individual. All the men, myself included, treat them with respect... meaning, we tease the shit out of them. To do otherwise would exclude them from the team. Have you ever seen a cohesive group that didn't joke around? A tiny fraction of the jabs traded by men are HR-approved... if we filtered that for the women who work with us, we would be treating them as if they're too weak or too sensitive to be a part of the group. So instead, we treat them no differently than any other team member. If one of the other coders were to arrive unusually dressed up, I would absolutely comment on it, regardless of whether it's a suit or a dress, but one of the ladies would probably beat me to it. Frankly, the women push the HR line harder than any of us guys, and we love them for it. If you find that people are consistently telling you to "lighten up," whether you're male or female, you shouldn't assume that the world is conspiring to put you down. You're probably just no fun to work with.
• derrida 15y ago
  Talking of sexism. Dear Y-combinator community, you have been caught red-handed @ 17:50 in this video at Startup School http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&t=17m50s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&t=17m50s Would you laugh if it were a male speaking? I kind of wish people would, then men might know the feeling of what it's like. Can you imagine if this happened to you? This isn't PG's fault. It's the idiots in the audience. You can have a high-IQ, make brilliant stuff and still be a sexist asshole. I'm a male, and I hate this stuff, because my it's my friends that are the ones that are affected by this behaviour.
• tsotha 15y ago
  Damn, I'm glad I don't have to work with such a prickly person. Men have to deal with minor sleights and annoyances, too. That's why they tell you to "lighten up". Because you're not special.
• bshankle3 15y ago
  My wife is a programmer. I hear you!
• ChristianMarks 15y ago
  I consider the phrase "lighten up" patronizing and would avoid it altogether. I was once told to "lighten up" by an interviewer at a bank and immediately knew that I did not want to work there. It's insulting to suggest that a person ought to have feelings other than the ones they have. In my view, feelings (not behavior) are generally involuntary, largely beyond conscious control and lie outside the moral sphere. I'm in academia, where the use-mention distinction isn't recognized where sexual innuendo is concerned. To be on the safe side, I take the attitude that even non-interacting, space-like separated particles at opposite ends of the universe could be accused of sexually harassing each other--and probably are.
• jamesrcole 15y ago
  I can't stand it when people use the "Lighten up" line. What it really means is that they can't empathise. For them it's no big deal... so therefore, as far as they see it, it is no big deal. . If someone truly thinks another person is taking something too seriously, and really feels that something should be said about it, then the non-patronising thing to do would be to try and explain it to the other person.
• einhverfr 15y ago
  Reading through the article and the comments here it seems to me that there is a tremendous unresolved tension. There seems to be an idea that we just 'fix the sexism' and that's that. However, stepping back and asking harder questions makes me think the problems are fundamental to highly developed capitalist economies. Before you mod me down, at least read the rest of what I have to say. Everything we do-- what we wear, how we walk, the way we talk, sends subtle social signals, and these impact all areas of life. Two fundamental (and increasingly entwined) areas of life are sexuality (without which our race dies out) and economic (without which, each of us dies individually). These are tremendously entertwined, with over half of Americans having dated co-workers (see: http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/02/10/the-state-of-the-office-romance-2012/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/02/10/the-state-...). So it seems to me that, particularly single, women navigating the modern workplace are trying to navigate two fundamentally conflicting desires. The first is to be professional and not be open to the problem of being offered promotions for sexual favors, or retaliation for declining such offers, and the second is to find romance, companionship, love, etc. The fact that workplace romances are so common cannot be discounted in this area. And so you have two key questions: 1) How do you define appropriate boundaries? This is a hellishly difficult problem in the context of the workplace. 2) If boundaries aren't bright but involve a lot of give and take, then doesn't that fundamentally mean that there will be a lot of behavior that will fall outside of that which is desirable? I honestly don't see how you solve that problem. On the gender role issue, I am a firm believer that one is generally better off making such tasks as taking notes or arranging potlucks things which are volunteer, and then if that fails, rotated, eliminating those who can't do it reasonably well. But beyond that........ As long as so much of our social spheres surround work, and that's where a lot of opportunity for dating (both for men and women) lies, I just don't buy that you can wish away unwanted attention.
  • natep 15y ago
    I think another commenter in this thread had a good answer (it was his understanding of California law). You can politely ask a coworker on a date, but if that person declines, then you drop it.
    • 15y ago
• paganel 15y ago
  > All I did was make a joke about you needing to be in the kitchen! I'm a fellow programmer, and a guy (if it matters), but whenever I hear this exact comment (luckily for me I didn't hear it from any of my present or past co-workers, only distant acquaintances) I almost literally start to boil. Are some of us men really, I mean really that stupid?! Again, luckily for me most of my career as a programmer has been spent in small non-software specific firms (5 to 20 people) where the female to male ratio was in most cases higher than 50%, so that I didn't have to hear this misogynistic and stupid crap.
• hef19898 15y ago
  You just made me speachless. One of the best comments I ever read on that issue (or any other resembling it)!
  • hef19898 15y ago
    Question out of curiosity: I've been down voted why exactly here? :-)
    • lucb1e 15y ago
      I was actually wondering the same.
• perlpimp 15y ago
  At my work place we throw around homoerotic jokes and comments all the time and no one is offended. I guess it is only if you're comfortable enough with a group that you can ask them to do ridiculous things, kind of funny way. In rework it mentions that you should hire friends, sounds like that girl is the stranger wether it is because she is a girl or wether the men are disgusting pigs - whatever the case. She can adapt the group become a leader, I've seen it happen with girls or she can cry about being an abused minority. Such is a difference between strong and weak people. Granted we don't come to work to be leaders some of us enjoy just writing code and doodling up layouts and logos in photoshop. In this case a compromise should be found - offsite work on the project. From a coffee shop or otherwise. You know there are other companies to work with as well, maybe with better female/male ratio. In the end this is a battle of sexes, the chemistry is wrong - men want to have sex with women and when you add in the mix work and being close, you can either make so that you are not attractive to any of the male members of the work force or do something else. Asking men not to be men is just as cruel as asking a woman to be a man. One way to augment this issue is to hire a ton of girls to work in the team to maybe dilute the male collective. But in every case this may lead to different and unpredictable results. You can't just board a pirate ship and expect sailors to behave all gentlemanly at once - maybe pirate ship full of amazons? at any rate this is hugely complicated because people are. Complaining about it won't get you anywhere, acting does. Most of us want to see more females in the force. Most of the time nerds I know work harder, because they want to strut their awesome code and how well it works before female member of the team.
• VonLipwig 15y ago
  It's all down to ignorance really isn't it. Isolated incidents by themselves aren't really a big deal. Idiots are everywhere. Sometimes people just don't think before speaking. Sometimes the odd jibe is actually amusing. Of course when the jibe has been heard a hundred times before it never is. I have a stutter and the amount of crap I have had over the years is rediculous. It isn't people taking the piss, I am used to that. Its people being 'kind'. People assuming I cannot do something or wouldn't want to do something on account of my speech. People being 'protective' or finishing sentences... The outride rudeness of people is easy to confront and challenge. It is the subtle stuff which is very difficult to deal with. Often people genuinely do not understand that they have done something wrong. They were just asking someone to take notes and you have become the defacto note taker... whats wrong with that? I have always thought the best thing to do is stand your ground but if you do that every time you get a reputation of being a stickler and being less approachable. The trouble is finding the right balance between letting the odd thing slide without just leaving yourself open to taking crap. I feel for Katie and think it is a shame that she has been effectively forced out doing she something she enjoys by the ignorance of others.
• thhaar 15y ago
  My £0.02: having worked in a few teams in the UK, France and Sweden over the course of the last decade, I'd say this is a cultural effect that can be won over locally by a certain company or social group, but would require a coordinated and concerted effort on behalf of men and women to stamp this kind of stealth-bullying out of social acceptability. I fully support the men who will help call out this kind of behaviour, and am also fully satisfied that this issue has front-paged HN for as long as it has. From my own experience of work, cultural norms and popular issues, although only the smallest of samples, I'd say that (younger) Swedes have a much better handle on the balance of respect and gender roles than their peers in FR or the UK (England, specifically). Even the most subtle attempt at sexism is picked up on to a degree where it is unacceptable to at least publicly chance a remark of this kind in the workplace or in the media. Why this is I can only guess. Prevalent (older) attitudes may account for the continued pay discrepancy between men and women and all that this reflects, but I'd say the Swedes have a very much less subtly-offensive 'working atmosphere' than those I've been part of elsewhere. Also troubling is the question of 'women/babies/employment', but that's a whole other can of worms; just as a parting shot - men also leave poorly managed jobs when something better in life is offered to them, at least you get up to 9 months warning with women.
• daemon13 15y ago
  Honestly speaking I am surprised by the quantity of comments, especially the ones on sexism and similar stuff (how to dress, what to cook, etc). Usually, this is an indicator of one big underlying problem, therefore I assume that it is a problem in the US. At least, this is how the author positions the situation and her individual case. But..... in reality, at least based on what I observed in the multinational companies, where I worked, such behavior usually surfaces in three cases. (1) The person does not understand how organizational dynamics and people/power play works, i.e. does not know the rules of the game. (2) The person is not a good performer, or at least this is how colleagues perceive her or (for god sake) him. (3) The corporate environment and culture OR the boss are negative - in this case most employees are treated like that. Based on my personal experience:- In case of (3) the best advice is to run - find another company that would value this particular individual strengths. There are plenty of companies out there. The life is not worth it to spend it on converting jerks to mother Theresa. In case of (2) the best advice is to "make yourself so good, that they can't ignore you" [I do not recall that exact wording]. I seriously doubt that a valuable employee [i.e. she/he is the only one who can fix things with positive/negative impact on P&L] would be mistreated. In case she would be, than probably this is the case (3) - the company/boss does not understand the employee's value ---> same advice as above - run. I recall two cases - female HR assistant and male Director of Strategy. The former was just dumb, and the latter was bullshitting his way around. In both cases gender had nothing to do with the fact that both had nothing to bring to the table. So the consensus of high-producing crowd (both female and male) was unanimous. Usually, if a person is an excellent performer, these things (negative comments, stupid microtasks, etc) just do not appear or do not stick. In case of (1) the best advice is to find a mentor (gender not relevant), who could teach or coach on how to behave oneself in a group or organization, so called organizational behavior or simply politics. It is difficult to summarize it, but the goal is to learn how to diffuse negative behavior towards you with humor, words or actions immediately at the point of action in such a way that everybody present would think that the one who initiated negative behavior is a jerk (or dumb, or idiot, or an asshole) without you calling names. For example a comment from colleague <"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"> can be rubuffed with "Oop, John's got his socks smelling today! I know where I shall not be sitting" or smth similar with a big smile. The simple view and approach is to perceive such people as programs with bugs. To resolve the bug you need to understand how the whole piece is working and what's inside. Therefore, you need to understand each individual, what's inside, what are the bugs and how to approach/address them. Each one is unique and shall be dealt with as such. Another approach is to start with yourself - how you perceive yourself and own self-confidence. I agree with OneBytePerGreen that the author shall "lighten up". I do not recall the exact term, but the author perceives that the external environment is what controls her behavior and outcomes. Such view does not faciliate personal growth, or any growth per se. The only way to change is to understand simple fact that behavior of others is defined by your own behavior and start with yourself, because that's the only one a human being can change. On a side note I especially disagree with one of the comments: <"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.> Acting like that is keeping the real issue under the table and unresolved. The real issue is the person's view of the world and lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in life. A good boss or co-worker would teach or coach the person how to to deal with that. Apologies for my English and, possibly, tone. My first real post on NH, so I might have missed some 'untold' rules.
• monochromatic 15y ago
  > I once had a boss who wanted to turn me into a personal assistant so badly, it ended up in a meeting with HR (he, as white and male, should be allowed to rein in the only female on the team!). Actually, he should. It has nothing to do with his sex and race though--it has to do with him being THE BOSS.
• ahoyhere 15y ago
  As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). Not saying this is what's happening in these cases, but I've often seen this happen to women not because they're women, but because they create the situation by training people to rely on them to do these things. Women who will take on the tasks nobody else wants to do, who will always do whatever others leave undone, who offers to bring other people food when she goes out, etc. In the spirit of helpfulness or whatever. This happens to men, too, but more women on the whole seem to be the "step in and get it done" type (for whatever reason). The kind you can rely on to bend over backwards to do something when asked, even if it's ridiculous. You see it in families and it's natural that people behave the same at work as they do at home, when it comes to this kind of behavior. I'm not like this at all, though. Not at all. Nobody says "Oh, Amy will get it all done." And this never happens to me.
  • ckpwong 15y ago
    When I was in my early 20's, I (the lone female developer) was once asked by my manager to put together a gift for the only other female team member, a tester, who had just given birth. I don't know why I was picked, because I was (1) very new to the team, (2) didn't knew the other person well, and (3) generally ill-equipped at that stage of my life (really, just entering the "adult world") to anticipate what was an appropriate gift for a new mother. There were other team members who were already parents (of multiple children, even), thus probably knew better. But I was picked. I think I just got a Toys'R'Us gift card as cop out.
• monochromatic 15y ago
  If you turn innocent (or even well-intentioned) comments into an HR case, I'm guessing your co-workers are not sad to see you gone.
• michaelhoffman 15y ago
  What happened to the "OH HAI SEXISM" thread, previously at (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3739913 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3739913)?
• sheraz 15y ago
  Dear Katie, Welcome to business, now grow up. I agree that the "lighten up" strategy is tiresome and ineffective. I don't know you, but it seems you need to grow some thicker skin and learn to hit back. Do you think Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorna, or Arianna Huffington take shit from people? Hello no! It is called assertiveness and standing your ground. Grow up, Katie. The real world has all kinds of people. People who grew up believing in gender roles. People who grew up thinking homosexuality is bad. People who grew up with no discipline from hippie parents. Putting all those personalities in the room can be chaotic. There are two lessons you need to learn: 1. assert yourself, and do it in a way that the offending party understands. HR and all these laws are crutches for solving the actual problems. 2. stop worrying about what others think about you.
• mediacrisis 15y ago
  You know, I come to HN mostly for the enlightened commentary on the news articles that are posted. Yet anytime something related to sexism in the industry comes up, I am stunned at some of the comments. Yes. It is hard being a woman in the industry. It is hard being a woman in general. But the worst part is seeing how many men think we act like an entirely different species, and its disheartening. Sometimes, comments speak of women as if we don't even read this site. Obviously there are many cultural and sociological norms at play here, but I expect more from this community. I guess thats my fault.
  • rweba 15y ago
    The same story when anything involving race comes up.
• badclient 15y ago
  So hey HN, if we really are gonna go on a crusade against objectification and gender roles, why does it almost always have to be about women playing victim? Any guy could whip up blog posts about daily situations where specific (not necessarily superior) roles are imposed upon them by society simply because they are men. I get told all the time by the ladies (even if jokingly) that I should put on some weight so I am more of a man. I get asked all the time and it is assumed of me even more times to carry the bags because I am the man in the situation. Aren't there centuries old idea about being a "gentleman"? Where you are expected to hold the door for the woman, buy her stuff etc. Aren't there studies that men are much less likely to report rape than women? Shouldn't that be much more appalling to all than some of the pettier examples posted on HN recently?
• rmrm 15y ago
  in no way a contradiction of anything, or a statement of what is correct in the workplace just an observation on human relations as it relates to this topic: A.) Women would not like to be treated by men as men treat other men in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways. B.) Men would not like to be treated as women often treat other women in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways. which leads me to: C.) It is difficult for either gender to rigorously define appropriate asexual behavior towards one another, as their behavior is (generally) genuinely sex-aware.
• Shenglong 15y ago
  "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" -> "Oop, looks like Bob's wearing the same thing as yesterday." -> "Kinda desperate there, eh?"
• pabloPXL 15y ago
  I think both behaviors provide continuation to the problem. On one side, the people who is actually sexist, or racist, or just believe in stereotypes. In the another, the people who also believes that the rest of the people are biased towards their sex, skin color or condition. Ignoring information that is not interesting or useful for us is the best tool we have to not be hurt by other people so easily, get stronger and prepared to survive in an unfair society and preserve freedom of speech. Nobody wants to be negatively discriminated, but does somebody think positive discrimination is the solution? I believe is the same social problem after all.
• chunkybacon 15y ago
  Is anyone else bothered by the fact that of the 752 comments on this thread at the moment probably >700 were written by men? Isn't it potentially sexist in and of itself to have a large discussion about this subject exclusively between men?
  • agateform 15y ago
    AFAIK, ycombinator forum software does not make a sex/gender distinction. I don't see how it could be sexist. Being labeled a sexist is a terrible thing. Saying that a discussion by man on the subject is sexist seems potentially sexist because it implies that man should not discuss because they are man.
• peterwwillis 15y ago
  I hope one day we can all work in environments that are completely non-hostile. Some jobs seem to be a lot more rough than others, in my experience. I've never had to deal with sexism or prejudice but i've had my share of crap to take from coworkers. I've also worked with highly professional, straight-laced people who know not to be asshats and treat people fairly. I really hope you don't stop doing what you love because of where you work.
• jabits 15y ago
  I can't up this enough. My wife is a Java dev (I am a .Net dev), and I hear about the crap she has to endure almost weekly. It truly makes me want to walk into her client site and smack some faces. It is so hard to believe that this can be so common, especially since the field is made up mostly of younger "enlightened and tolerant" guys. This speaks so badly for our field (and society in general). (Now we are both in the early stages of "age-ism", but hey, we can fight that with talent, right?!?)
• pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  I'm a bit late to the party here but isn't she being sexist too? For example, with the notes issue - how does she know that she is being chosen because she's female. She probably doesn't. She's probably assuming that's the reason, because men are misogynist pigs, right? It's one of those situations where we can't tell at all. The mens rea, if there is one, is hidden. Why doesn't she assume that she takes the best notes or that the boss thinks that because of her CV [made up example:] having documentation experience or the best English pass scores of the group that she'll be the best note taker.