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Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers

Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (Spanish: Pacto del Olvido) is the political decision by both leftist and rightist parties of Spain to avoid confronting directly the legacy of Francoism after the death of Francisco Franco in 1975.[1] The Pact of Forgetting was an attempt to move on from the Civil War and subsequent repression and to concentrate on the future of Spain.[2] In making a smooth transition from autocracy and totalitarianism to democracy, the Pact ensured that there were no prosecutions for persons responsible for human rights violations or similar crimes committed during the Francoist period. On the other hand, Francoist public memorials, such as the mausoleum of the Valley of the Fallen, fell into disuse for official occasions.[3] Also, the celebration of "Day of Victory" during the Franco era was changed to "Armed Forces Day" so respect was paid to both Nationalist and Republican parties of the Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting No wonder Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism, Francoists, Carlists and more, you cannot just pretend like something didn't happen.

profeatur 3y ago
>wrongdoers This goes all ways. The USSR had their hands in Spanish politics. Spain’s extensive gold reserves were drained and shipped off to Moscow, for instance. Spain was dragged into a political and economic system with no real organic connection to the country. Democracy here has always been a farce. During covid the leftist government enacted some of the most draconian lockdowns in the world, and there was zero pushback from the kind of people who seethe over Franco. Also, the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco (hence more control), the economy is relatively worse off, and the fertility rate is in a death spiral.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  > the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco A key part of Fascism is that there is no real division between private and state enterprise, beyond some cosmetic titles. So the proportion is definitely not greater today, whatever measure you define. And if you mean "the total amount", which is even more meaningless, and today it is greater, than that is because Franco's economy was just very underdeveloped.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany This is precisely what happened in non-Soviet-occupied Germany. Only the most senior Nazis were severely punished at big trials like Nuremberg. For lesser ranking Nazis, even when they were sentenced to imprisonment, their sentences were generally short or soon commuted. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation commission focused on the investigation side in order to provide healing, but it sought to avoid prosecuting any but the most trenchant participants in Apartheid – and the country was praised for that. There is certainly a belief that coming down hard on the ancien regime may only prolong civil conflict, so it is hard to see Spain’s way of dealing with Franco’s legacy as beyond the pale. > Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism I don’t think this is a fair characterization of contemporary Spanish politics. The political successor of Spanish Fascism (the falangistas) had dwindled by the 1990s to a handful of elderly folk who were derided by wider society. Today in Spain, the term “fascist” is often applied by people on the left to any ideological opponent on the far-right or even the center-right, but that right-wing opponent’s actual link to Franco or the distinctly early-twentieth-century phenomenon that was Fascism, is doubtful.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > This is precisely what happened in non-Soviet-occupied Germany. Only the most senior Nazis were severely punished at big trials like Nuremberg. > but it sought to avoid prosecuting any but the most trenchant participants in Apartheid So, not at all what happened in Spain then, as no one got punished at all, everyone was supposed to just collectively forget about it. I wouldn't have a issue with it if it just focused on the "most trenchant participants" but instead nothing was done. > Today in Spain, the term “fascist” is often applied by people on the left to any ideological opponent on the far-right or even the center-right, but that right-wing opponent’s actual link to Franco or the distinctly early-twentieth-century phenomenon that was Fascism, is doubtful. I'm not sure if you visited Spain recently, but there is definitely young francoists and falangists all around Spain, openly promoting fascism and trying to protect whatever legacy Franco still has in the country. It's not a handful of elderly folks as you think.
the_gipsy 3y ago
After 40 years of Franco, everybody was scared of a coup. In fact, in '81 a some military-police did try it, but fortunately failed. So it was kind of sensible not to tear up the country and provoke another war and/or dictatorship. You can't just "flip the country over" and go after basically everybody with any political, military, or economic power.
mejutoco 3y ago
This is indeed the source of many troubles for Spain, and it is quite shocking. There are laws against investigating were victims of civil war are buried, and other dark things like that. At the time, any reforms had to please the Franco supporters, or a coup was feared. This is why the Constitution is ambiguous in many points: Spanish is aconfessional but with special historical weight for Catholicism, the amount of independence of different regions, etc.). I think it is easier to understand after 2 facts: 1. The dictatorship lasted from 1939 until 1975. 2. Franco designated what would be the next King as his successor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I). Keep in mind Spain was a republic before Franco's coup and civil war. This king, instead of becoming the new dictator, was installed back with the monarchy.

profeatur 3y ago

>wrongdoers This goes all ways. The USSR had their hands in Spanish politics. Spain’s extensive gold reserves were drained and shipped off to Moscow, for instance. Spain was dragged into a political and economic system with no real organic connection to the country. Democracy here has always been a farce. During covid the leftist government enacted some of the most draconian lockdowns in the world, and there was zero pushback from the kind of people who seethe over Franco. Also, the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco (hence more control), the economy is relatively worse off, and the fertility rate is in a death spiral.

the_gipsy 3y ago
> the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco A key part of Fascism is that there is no real division between private and state enterprise, beyond some cosmetic titles. So the proportion is definitely not greater today, whatever measure you define. And if you mean "the total amount", which is even more meaningless, and today it is greater, than that is because Franco's economy was just very underdeveloped.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany This is precisely what happened in non-Soviet-occupied Germany. Only the most senior Nazis were severely punished at big trials like Nuremberg. For lesser ranking Nazis, even when they were sentenced to imprisonment, their sentences were generally short or soon commuted. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation commission focused on the investigation side in order to provide healing, but it sought to avoid prosecuting any but the most trenchant participants in Apartheid – and the country was praised for that. There is certainly a belief that coming down hard on the ancien regime may only prolong civil conflict, so it is hard to see Spain’s way of dealing with Franco’s legacy as beyond the pale. > Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism I don’t think this is a fair characterization of contemporary Spanish politics. The political successor of Spanish Fascism (the falangistas) had dwindled by the 1990s to a handful of elderly folk who were derided by wider society. Today in Spain, the term “fascist” is often applied by people on the left to any ideological opponent on the far-right or even the center-right, but that right-wing opponent’s actual link to Franco or the distinctly early-twentieth-century phenomenon that was Fascism, is doubtful.

capableweb 3y ago
> This is precisely what happened in non-Soviet-occupied Germany. Only the most senior Nazis were severely punished at big trials like Nuremberg. > but it sought to avoid prosecuting any but the most trenchant participants in Apartheid So, not at all what happened in Spain then, as no one got punished at all, everyone was supposed to just collectively forget about it. I wouldn't have a issue with it if it just focused on the "most trenchant participants" but instead nothing was done. > Today in Spain, the term “fascist” is often applied by people on the left to any ideological opponent on the far-right or even the center-right, but that right-wing opponent’s actual link to Franco or the distinctly early-twentieth-century phenomenon that was Fascism, is doubtful. I'm not sure if you visited Spain recently, but there is definitely young francoists and falangists all around Spain, openly promoting fascism and trying to protect whatever legacy Franco still has in the country. It's not a handful of elderly folks as you think.

the_gipsy 3y ago

After 40 years of Franco, everybody was scared of a coup. In fact, in '81 a some military-police did try it, but fortunately failed. So it was kind of sensible not to tear up the country and provoke another war and/or dictatorship. You can't just "flip the country over" and go after basically everybody with any political, military, or economic power.

mejutoco 3y ago

This is indeed the source of many troubles for Spain, and it is quite shocking. There are laws against investigating were victims of civil war are buried, and other dark things like that. At the time, any reforms had to please the Franco supporters, or a coup was feared. This is why the Constitution is ambiguous in many points: Spanish is aconfessional but with special historical weight for Catholicism, the amount of independence of different regions, etc.). I think it is easier to understand after 2 facts: 1. The dictatorship lasted from 1939 until 1975. 2. Franco designated what would be the next King as his successor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I). Keep in mind Spain was a republic before Franco's coup and civil war. This king, instead of becoming the new dictator, was installed back with the monarchy.