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A Journey Through Spain’s Islamic History

104 points by Thevet 3y ago

tgv 3y ago
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- rayiner 3y ago
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- capableweb 3y ago
  What are you talking about? The article goes through the history, both positive and negative. There is plenty of not-so-light-and-happy parts in the article. Examples: > And yet, after the Reconquest, the once-wealthy region fell into decay. By the early 19th century, it had become so wild and impoverished that Washington Irving was forced to trudge its grueling mountain roads in a mule team convoy with armed guards to protect from highwaymen. > The remote setting has also seen its share of violence. In 1568, more than seven decades after the Reconquest, the Muslims of Almería joined the so-called Rebellion of the Alpujarras against Christian domination in Spain, creating an outlaw Islamic enclave that held out until it was crushed in 1571. > Soon after, a mass escape of Republican civilian refugees on the desert highway from Málaga to Almería was strafed remorselessly by Franco’s Nazi-supplied planes, leaving at least 3,000 dead. The city of Almería then became “a vast encampment,” > Spain’s attempts at reconciliation have ranged from symbolic—a 2022 apology to women executed as witches in Catalonia—to acts that have direct contemporary impact, like the exhumation of victims in mass graves from the Spanish Civil War, offering closure to descendants who want their relatives identified and properly reburied. > In 2015, there was also an attempt to deal with injustices following the demise of al-Andalus, when the Madrid government apologized for the 1492 Edict of Expulsion aimed at Sephardic Jews and offered Spanish citizenship to their international descendants.
  - onetimeusename 3y ago
    None of these things happened under Al-Andalus prior to the Reconquista which I think shows the bias of the author. There were of course persecutions that happened of non-Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_i... Similarly, some of the examples of bad things the author cited are stretching plausibility to kind of imply that they were a result of Christian rule when they happened in the 19th century in the Spanish Civil War era. edit: forgot to mention that slavery appeared to be practiced by Muslims and Jews in Al-Andalus. At the time of the formation of Al-Andalus, Muslims were prohibited from enslaving fellow believers, but there was a slave trade of non-Muslims in which Muslims and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_Am...
    - deleted 3y ago
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- bigbillheck 3y ago
  > where forms of serfdom were still present in the late 20th century While I don't doubt it, I haven't been able to find anything that actually supports this claim. But considering who it was that actually owned serfs I think we can all agree that this is another reason it's a shame the wrong side won the Spanish Civil War.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (Spanish: Pacto del Olvido) is the political decision by both leftist and rightist parties of Spain to avoid confronting directly the legacy of Francoism after the death of Francisco Franco in 1975.[1] The Pact of Forgetting was an attempt to move on from the Civil War and subsequent repression and to concentrate on the future of Spain.[2] In making a smooth transition from autocracy and totalitarianism to democracy, the Pact ensured that there were no prosecutions for persons responsible for human rights violations or similar crimes committed during the Francoist period. On the other hand, Francoist public memorials, such as the mausoleum of the Valley of the Fallen, fell into disuse for official occasions.[3] Also, the celebration of "Day of Victory" during the Franco era was changed to "Armed Forces Day" so respect was paid to both Nationalist and Republican parties of the Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting No wonder Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism, Francoists, Carlists and more, you cannot just pretend like something didn't happen.
    - profeatur 3y ago
      >wrongdoers This goes all ways. The USSR had their hands in Spanish politics. Spain’s extensive gold reserves were drained and shipped off to Moscow, for instance. Spain was dragged into a political and economic system with no real organic connection to the country. Democracy here has always been a farce. During covid the leftist government enacted some of the most draconian lockdowns in the world, and there was zero pushback from the kind of people who seethe over Franco. Also, the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco (hence more control), the economy is relatively worse off, and the fertility rate is in a death spiral.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  One has to really stretch the modern definition of "colonization" and its moral implications for it to be applicable to the 7 centuries of Muslim Spain, but not make it applicable to the immediately preceding Visigothic and Suevi kingdoms of Hispania, some of the Germanic tribes who invaded and took over during the fall of the Roman Empire. Even if we were to accept invasion of Iberia by the Umayyad Caliphate of Arabia in 711 as an exercise in colonisation, the Caliphate collapsed by 750, and Muslim rule in Iberia was succeeded by a complex succession of mostly local rule by the united Emirate or Caliphate of Cordova, or broken into smaller Taifas, and fluctuating levels of control by Berber dynasties which also controlled parts of North Africa—but notably would sometimes seat their court in Seville or Cordova. Was that colonisation? If it was, it's hard to argue that the similar political and territorial changes taking place in the Christian kingdoms, counties, and principalities of Northern Spain, often by descendants of the Visigothic invaders, were not also acts of colonisation. Another example would be the Marca Hispanica, established by Charlemagne, and direct predecessor of the County of Barcelona and hence the Principality of Catalonia, a realm of the Crown of Aragon which is a constituent part of modern Spain. Spanish mediæval history is a constant shuffle of rulers and territorial changes, which can neither be ascribed to the oversimplified idea of the Christian Reconquista (=Reconquest) nor can it be regarded as an example of colonisation in the modern sense. Regarding this complexity, consider that the Coat of Arms of Spain [0], in its many historical variations, explicitly references the Crown of Castile (Kingdoms of Leon and Castile), the Crown of Aragon, the Kingdom of Navarre, and the Kingdom of Granada. The first two entities were united by dynastic union, and the latter two were taken by conquest. To what extent was the conquest of Muslim Granada a decolonisation event, and not the conquest of Christian Navarre? Finally, regarding Andalusia being the poorest part of the country [2] and its history with serfdom, this is more due to the repopulation carried out by the Kingdom of Castile after the (re?)conquest of territories from Muslim rulers. Much land was granted to Christian noble families and feudal lordships were established as reward to them, to a greater extent than had happened in the North of Spain in the earlier period. In fact, the effect of repopulation and land awards as recompense can be seen to a certain extent in the map of municipalities of Spain [1]. Notice that the Northern Meseta, mostly modern Castilla y León (Northwest square of inland) is much more granular than the bottom half, including the Southern Meseta, mostly Castilla-La-Mancha and Extremadura (inland area below north-south midline of Spain just north of Andalusia), Andalusia and Murcia. That is the case even though the Northern and Southern Mesetas are not significantly different in terms of climate and geography. Their only differences is how the Southern one was more systematically repopulated by the Crown of Castile, as was the rest of Southern Spain. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain [1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipio_(Espa%C3%B1a)#/media/Archivo:Spain_municipalities.png https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipio_(Espa%C3%B1a)#/media... [2] There were of course many later contributing factors, including the effect of the Spanish Empire, the effect of 19th century protectionist economic policies, as well as the whole 20th century. Here I'm only focusing on the how the late mediæval period had its effect.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  I know somehow Andalusians really seem to enjoy self-deprecation, and put down anyone who talks about the region in a positive light, but the numbers show it's not that poor. I know very well these kind of numbers don't reflect on perceived poverty in rural villages, but Andalusia as a whole is not doing that bad at all, objectively. Actually even has pockets of extreme wealth, like Marbella or Sotogrande. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_autonomous_communities_by_gross_domestic_product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_autonomous_com...
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Andalusia and Extremadura are at the bottom of the table of Spain's autonomous communities by GDP per Capita and HDI. They share metrics comparable to Sicily and other poorer parts of Southern and Eastern Europe such as Portugal. Before the rapid economic growth Spain saw in the 1980s, it was most likely even poorer and less developed. There is still a North-South divide in Spain with Communities Madrid northwards sharing economic and developmental indicators with Western European countries like France or Germany, while Southern Spain shares developmental and economic indicators closer to Portugal, Sicily, or other southern and Eastern European regions. The same issue plagues Southern Italy as well.
- keenmaster 3y ago
  I don’t see how this is supposed to be meaningful. Ancient Greece was incredible for its time, and modern Greece is relative poor. I hope we both agree that doesn’t diminish Greece’s past in any way.
- dang 3y ago
  "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - StackOverlord 3y ago
    Then make sure nobody from Eglin Air Force Base posts on here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit...
    - dang 3y ago
      I'm not quite sure I get your angle but HN users are as welcome from Eglin Air Force Base as from anywhere else, as long as they're using the site as intended. Why shouldn't they be interested in pedestrian footbridges in Minneapolis? (to mention one darling of the moment)
christkv 3y ago
Ah yes the beautiful myth of the Andalusian Paradise. Turns out it's probably just a myth. For a different historic take I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Andalusian-Paradise-Christians-Medieval/dp/1610170954 https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Andalusian-Paradise-Christians-M...
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  This book was published by Regnery in their ISI Books line and if you look at the rest of their catalog (https://www.regnery.com/books/isi-books/ https://www.regnery.com/books/isi-books/) there's a certain theme that's overwhelming. To be slightly more explicit, when so many of their other books are so obviously by and for right wing culture warriors, why would they have published this one if it was not? (And if you look outside that particular imprint the publisher's politics become even more obvious)
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    Without knowing the content of those books, it's hard to judge if that's true. Or you'll have to explain why this is obvious.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      I knew nothing about ISI but after skimming through the book list at the bottom of the page, I mean that's pretty obvious…
      - Chris2048 3y ago
        Not to me. There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too. And that's exactly what to expect from a conservative library! There's no left-wing book, at all, in the shelves and that's a pretty clear sign. We can't know for sure if the “general topics” are themselves conservative, but the complete lack of left-wing PoV in collection, that doesn't bode well.
profeatur 3y ago
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6stringronin 3y ago
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- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  > Its always the same narrative talking about European colonization of the world, "yes, this is what armies/nations did back then, past is past" When talking about Spain or Constantinople, "look at the awful colonizers!" Who do you see saying these things today? In e.g. the early 1900s that was probably the common view, but today the common view in the west seems to be the exact opposite.
- elcidcampeador 3y ago
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- a-french-anon 3y ago
  >What great monuments were left by the Europeans for their conquered? "What have the Romans ever done for us?"
- onetimeusename 3y ago
  > What great monuments were left by the Europeans for their conquered? India has a lot of British made buildings they try to preserve but a number of them have gone into disrepair which is unfortunate. Even so a number of them are still in use like Rashtrapati Bhavan which used to be a presidential palace. There are quite a few British made buildings still in use and considered architecturally and historically significant. >look up Mozarabic Rite. what about it? it existed prior to Al-Andalus. Christianity is a middle-eastern religion so you can find a lot of middle-eastern/Mediterranean influence in Early Christian rites/prayer and chants. > Respect for the local population seems like something European colonization never did when they spread their misery around the world. Christians were dhimmis under Muslim rule in Spain.
- dang 3y ago
  "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Simorgh 3y ago
I've recently been enjoying 'Tales of the Alhambra' which are folk stories collated by the American writer, Washington Irving. He visited Andalusia and gathered stories from the citizens of the region which harken back to the time of the Al-Andalus. I cannot recommend the book enough! The societies that he describes feel magical, enlightened, inspiring, thoughtful, advanced and romantic. I often wonder, 'how inspirational was Al-Andalus for contemporary Europeans?' The discovery and founding of America by Europeans itself has many parallels to the much earlier establishment of Al-Andalus. It too was an idealistic colony. Coincidentally, the word California - which symbolically marks a 'boundary of the west' of sorts - has an Arabic root!
- capableweb 3y ago
  Irving is directly referenced and quoted multiple times in the article, and so is his "travel memoir" Tales of the Alhambra (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49947/49947-h/49947-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49947/49947-h/49947-h.htm)
plinkplonk 3y ago
"Kingdoms of Faith" by Brian Catlos is an excellent book about Al Andalus, from the Arab invasion to the fall of Granada (the aftermath is not covered extensively).
elcidcampeador 3y ago
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29athrowaway 3y ago
No mention of the Toledo School of Translators, the equivalent to the Tizard mission of the 12th century. That event along with similar events in Italy and elsewhere was what truly triggered the Renaissance but historians in the West won't ever acknowledge it using that phrasing. Today, people are taught that Leonardo Da Vinci was hiding in a room somewhere and suddenly the Renaissance happened. That caliber of nonsense is necessary to explain the gap without recognizing the merit of other civilizations. Then you read this and realize that everything you have been taught about medieval times are fake feel-good stories about how the West is the light https://web.archive.org/web/20051210130856/http://umcc.ais.org/~maftab/ip/pdf/bktxt/hayy.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20051210130856/http://umcc.ais.o... (book written in 1160 CE) A brief extract: > Now 'tis established in the exact Sciences by precise demonstration, that the Sun is a Spherical Body, and so is the Earth; and that the Sun is much greater than the Earth; and that part of the Earth which is at all times illuminated by the Sun is above half of it; and that in that half which is illuminated, the Light is most intense in the midst, both because that part is the most remote from Darkness, as also, because it offers a greater surface to the Sun; and that those parts which are nearer the Circumference of the Circle, have less Light; and so gradually, till the Circumference of the Circle, which encompasses the illuminated part of the Earth, ends in Darkness. After the fall of Islamic civilization in the Iberian peninsula and the middle east, the world took many centuries to reach the same level of scientific progress from centuries earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law If the Mongols had not burned the Grand library of Baghdad you would be in a flying car right now talking with your friends on Mars.
- laputan_machine 3y ago
  Historically, Islamic philosophers (as they were then called) took works from the greek philosophers before them and expanded upon it. Then a few other philosphers who did not like people learning from non-muslims leaned hard into fundamentalism and you now have the kind of Islam (Salafist/Wahhabism) that exists today, e.g. Saudi Arabia The Mongols opened the door to fundamentalism, but it didn't have to go that way. The sack of Baghdad is a simplification Read up on Al Ghazali, it is eye-opening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali
37074177throw 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i... I have to find the letter (possibly a Jewish reader can dig it out?) but I remember reading and being amused by a letter penned by Maimonides to iirc Jews in Arabian peninsula. Apparently they had written to him having heard of the paradise of tolerance in Muslim Spain and his letter poo pooing it, telling them it’s no better than their locale. I always read that letter as a sort of rabbinical wisdom on his part: he knew they wouldn’t be able to get there so he painted a dismal picture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Jewish historians today would support the dismal picture. There were indeed severe restrictions on Jews in Muslim-ruled Andalusia: they were forced to wear special clothing, to dwell in a mellah (a special neighbourhood), and were prevented from riding horses. Yes, Christian Europe imposed analogical restrictions, but Andalusia under Muslim rule could hardly be called tolerant.
- Ligma123 3y ago
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  - oa335 3y ago
    About that book: “ It would be a book-length corrective that would address and properly contextualize and source all of the errors that occur at every level in The Myth, from basic problems of terminology to broader methodological and interpretive flaws” - https://wp.nyu.edu/sjpearce/2017/03/17/paradise-lost/ https://wp.nyu.edu/sjpearce/2017/03/17/paradise-lost/
  - whims31 3y ago
    It really depends on the historical context. I don't know what the standards were for the period but i saw this random tidbit from wikipedia while reading up on the Roma people (Note : this was after the era of the Andalus ): >From 1510 onwards, any Romani found in Switzerland were to be executed; while in England (beginning in 1554) and Denmark (beginning of 1589) any Romani which did not leave within a month were to be executed. Portugal began deportations of Romanis to its colonies in 1538. Compared to getting executed for being at the the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong ethnicity, Andalus may well have been a oasis of tolerance in Europe, relatively speaking.
jmyeet 3y ago
A podcaster I listen to said something that stuck with me. He doesn’t care who invented the light bulb. That would’ve happened anyway. What’s way more interesting is events that could’ve completely changed human history. Like if Julius Caesar lost in Gaul or the Persians had defeated the Greeks or the Mongols had invaded Europe. On that list had to be what if Islam had spread throughout Europe? It very much could’ve at different points. Not just the Moors but later the Ottomans.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  Is that podcaster Dan Carlin of Hardcore History? I recall him saying something similar, about the Great Man theory of history.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  > what if Islam had spread throughout Europe? For much of Europe, it did. If you take a look at the maps of various Islamic empires, there remains a fairly small part of Europe that was never ruled by them. Practically speaking, what is called 'Europe' today are just the parts that were never conquered, or were later retaken. The rest we call e.g. Turkey.
- xhkkffbf 3y ago
  I believe that Henry the Eighth was talking with some of the Muslim calliphates in Northern Africa around the time he broke from Rome. He could have gone Islamic but decided to set up his own church instead. Who knows how it would have worked out if he chose differently.
ROTMetro 3y ago
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- GreenWatermelon 3y ago
  You seem to have mistaken the Ottomans for the Andalusians, and went of on a rant.
- oa335 3y ago
  You are utterly confused between Ottomans and Andalusians, as well as Janissaries vs eunuchs.
- stryan 3y ago
  Janissaries were part of the Ottoman Empire starting in 1300s, while this article is about Muslim Spain, which lasted until 1400s at the latest. So, ignoring the rest of the bait in your content, no they did not have Janissaries.
- Simorgh 3y ago
  The Janissary were a part of the Ottoman Empire - which was on 'other end' of Europe, geographically. The Janissaries were not eunuchs. Eunuchs were also an element of society in Ancient Rome. I'm pointing out that it was not considered in previous ages, as it is today. As an example Italians would castrate boys prepped for singing opera - castrati - until the 1800s, it seems. Is the idealism of a successful society ever not of the elites and the rulers? I have read somewhere that the monarchs of Al-Andalus often had Visigoth (i.e. Spanish) lineage. Arabic may have been their lingua franca, but their society may have been essentially Spanish in many ways, just not 'Christian Spanish'. I think that the decline and fall of Al-Andalus may have been mostly a result of internal divisions, conflict and civil war. The Reconquista was however from without, the terror of the Spanish Inquisition was what followed, for the newly conquered.
- keenmaster 3y ago
  Janissaries were a uniquely Ottoman practice, and evoke something completely different than Muslim Andalucia. Also, I don’t believe that the Ottomans mutilated Janissaries in the way you described - that would be counterproductive, since strength is important in the military, especially with highly motivated elite soldiers. Look it up, that’s a popular myth, no more real than the Unsullied in Game of Thrones. In contrast to the Ottoman Empire, no one talks about some great Andalusian army. Al-Andalus was known for its culture, architecture, scientific innovation, multiculturalism, etc…that being said, the American school system doesn’t really cover Al-Andalus, the so-called Islamic Golden Age, and Muslim advancement of the frontier of knowledge.
ROTMetro 3y ago
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- exo-pla-net 3y ago
  Sucked that they did that. But they were there for centuries; their kids didn't do it. If Moorish descendents are bereft of virtue owing to the sins of their fathers, does the same apply to the descendents of the European invaders of America?
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    I read condemnation on this site every day against Europeans/Americans because of things done in the past that we were not a part of. Yes, a social structure similar to Jim Crow in the USA should be condemned not celebrated as being tolerant or some mythical place. It was not a good culture, it was not kind. Islam only allowed enslavement on non-muslims. Nice 'tolerance'. You shouldn't enslave people, and my people we mean non-believers. As many as 1.25 million white Europeans were enslaved by Islamic slavers. Much tolerance, much beauty.
    - exo-pla-net 3y ago
      I don't believe that the article was celebrating Islamic culture as a whole. It looked at their residual food/architecture. I furthermore don't know that there is a monolithic Islamic culture. Kurdish culture is a heck of a lot different than Afghani culture. Europeans and Americans did plenty of slaving. It's almost like it's a human thing, not a religion thing. I think you need to touch grass, friend. Dehumanization of the infidels is what allowed Moors to enslave Europeans. Take care not to become their mirror image.
100k 3y ago
I got interested in Al-Andalus when I visited Tarragona, where the Moors pushed out the Visigoths and ruled for 400 years. A short book I recommend is Moorish Spain by Richard Fletcher (https://www.amazon.com/Moorish-Spain-Richard-Fletcher/dp/0520248406 https://www.amazon.com/Moorish-Spain-Richard-Fletcher/dp/052...). It's a quick and engaging read covering the conquest and slow rollback of Muslim rule.

104 points by Thevet 3y ago

tgv 3y ago

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rayiner 3y ago
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capableweb 3y ago
What are you talking about? The article goes through the history, both positive and negative. There is plenty of not-so-light-and-happy parts in the article. Examples: > And yet, after the Reconquest, the once-wealthy region fell into decay. By the early 19th century, it had become so wild and impoverished that Washington Irving was forced to trudge its grueling mountain roads in a mule team convoy with armed guards to protect from highwaymen. > The remote setting has also seen its share of violence. In 1568, more than seven decades after the Reconquest, the Muslims of Almería joined the so-called Rebellion of the Alpujarras against Christian domination in Spain, creating an outlaw Islamic enclave that held out until it was crushed in 1571. > Soon after, a mass escape of Republican civilian refugees on the desert highway from Málaga to Almería was strafed remorselessly by Franco’s Nazi-supplied planes, leaving at least 3,000 dead. The city of Almería then became “a vast encampment,” > Spain’s attempts at reconciliation have ranged from symbolic—a 2022 apology to women executed as witches in Catalonia—to acts that have direct contemporary impact, like the exhumation of victims in mass graves from the Spanish Civil War, offering closure to descendants who want their relatives identified and properly reburied. > In 2015, there was also an attempt to deal with injustices following the demise of al-Andalus, when the Madrid government apologized for the 1492 Edict of Expulsion aimed at Sephardic Jews and offered Spanish citizenship to their international descendants.
- onetimeusename 3y ago
  None of these things happened under Al-Andalus prior to the Reconquista which I think shows the bias of the author. There were of course persecutions that happened of non-Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_i... Similarly, some of the examples of bad things the author cited are stretching plausibility to kind of imply that they were a result of Christian rule when they happened in the 19th century in the Spanish Civil War era. edit: forgot to mention that slavery appeared to be practiced by Muslims and Jews in Al-Andalus. At the time of the formation of Al-Andalus, Muslims were prohibited from enslaving fellow believers, but there was a slave trade of non-Muslims in which Muslims and local Jewish merchants traded in Spanish and Eastern European Christian slaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_colonial_Spanish_Am...
  - deleted 3y ago
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bigbillheck 3y ago
> where forms of serfdom were still present in the late 20th century While I don't doubt it, I haven't been able to find anything that actually supports this claim. But considering who it was that actually owned serfs I think we can all agree that this is another reason it's a shame the wrong side won the Spanish Civil War.
- capableweb 3y ago
  Furthermore, I just recently learn that after Franco's death, the entire country decided that it was best to not investigate and prosecute any of the wrongdoers from before the pact in order to make the transition to democracy "more smooth" after the dictatorship fell apart. Imagine the same happening after Nazi Germany fell, hard to imagine people willingly just forgetting what happened... > The Pact of Forgetting (Spanish: Pacto del Olvido) is the political decision by both leftist and rightist parties of Spain to avoid confronting directly the legacy of Francoism after the death of Francisco Franco in 1975.[1] The Pact of Forgetting was an attempt to move on from the Civil War and subsequent repression and to concentrate on the future of Spain.[2] In making a smooth transition from autocracy and totalitarianism to democracy, the Pact ensured that there were no prosecutions for persons responsible for human rights violations or similar crimes committed during the Francoist period. On the other hand, Francoist public memorials, such as the mausoleum of the Valley of the Fallen, fell into disuse for official occasions.[3] Also, the celebration of "Day of Victory" during the Franco era was changed to "Armed Forces Day" so respect was paid to both Nationalist and Republican parties of the Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting No wonder Spain still experiences a lot of issues related to fascism, Francoists, Carlists and more, you cannot just pretend like something didn't happen.
  - profeatur 3y ago
    >wrongdoers This goes all ways. The USSR had their hands in Spanish politics. Spain’s extensive gold reserves were drained and shipped off to Moscow, for instance. Spain was dragged into a political and economic system with no real organic connection to the country. Democracy here has always been a farce. During covid the leftist government enacted some of the most draconian lockdowns in the world, and there was zero pushback from the kind of people who seethe over Franco. Also, the government is many times larger than it ever was during Franco (hence more control), the economy is relatively worse off, and the fertility rate is in a death spiral.
Mordisquitos 3y ago
One has to really stretch the modern definition of "colonization" and its moral implications for it to be applicable to the 7 centuries of Muslim Spain, but not make it applicable to the immediately preceding Visigothic and Suevi kingdoms of Hispania, some of the Germanic tribes who invaded and took over during the fall of the Roman Empire. Even if we were to accept invasion of Iberia by the Umayyad Caliphate of Arabia in 711 as an exercise in colonisation, the Caliphate collapsed by 750, and Muslim rule in Iberia was succeeded by a complex succession of mostly local rule by the united Emirate or Caliphate of Cordova, or broken into smaller Taifas, and fluctuating levels of control by Berber dynasties which also controlled parts of North Africa—but notably would sometimes seat their court in Seville or Cordova. Was that colonisation? If it was, it's hard to argue that the similar political and territorial changes taking place in the Christian kingdoms, counties, and principalities of Northern Spain, often by descendants of the Visigothic invaders, were not also acts of colonisation. Another example would be the Marca Hispanica, established by Charlemagne, and direct predecessor of the County of Barcelona and hence the Principality of Catalonia, a realm of the Crown of Aragon which is a constituent part of modern Spain. Spanish mediæval history is a constant shuffle of rulers and territorial changes, which can neither be ascribed to the oversimplified idea of the Christian Reconquista (=Reconquest) nor can it be regarded as an example of colonisation in the modern sense. Regarding this complexity, consider that the Coat of Arms of Spain [0], in its many historical variations, explicitly references the Crown of Castile (Kingdoms of Leon and Castile), the Crown of Aragon, the Kingdom of Navarre, and the Kingdom of Granada. The first two entities were united by dynastic union, and the latter two were taken by conquest. To what extent was the conquest of Muslim Granada a decolonisation event, and not the conquest of Christian Navarre? Finally, regarding Andalusia being the poorest part of the country [2] and its history with serfdom, this is more due to the repopulation carried out by the Kingdom of Castile after the (re?)conquest of territories from Muslim rulers. Much land was granted to Christian noble families and feudal lordships were established as reward to them, to a greater extent than had happened in the North of Spain in the earlier period. In fact, the effect of repopulation and land awards as recompense can be seen to a certain extent in the map of municipalities of Spain [1]. Notice that the Northern Meseta, mostly modern Castilla y León (Northwest square of inland) is much more granular than the bottom half, including the Southern Meseta, mostly Castilla-La-Mancha and Extremadura (inland area below north-south midline of Spain just north of Andalusia), Andalusia and Murcia. That is the case even though the Northern and Southern Mesetas are not significantly different in terms of climate and geography. Their only differences is how the Southern one was more systematically repopulated by the Crown of Castile, as was the rest of Southern Spain. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain [1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipio_(Espa%C3%B1a)#/media/Archivo:Spain_municipalities.png https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipio_(Espa%C3%B1a)#/media... [2] There were of course many later contributing factors, including the effect of the Spanish Empire, the effect of 19th century protectionist economic policies, as well as the whole 20th century. Here I'm only focusing on the how the late mediæval period had its effect.
ricardobayes 3y ago
I know somehow Andalusians really seem to enjoy self-deprecation, and put down anyone who talks about the region in a positive light, but the numbers show it's not that poor. I know very well these kind of numbers don't reflect on perceived poverty in rural villages, but Andalusia as a whole is not doing that bad at all, objectively. Actually even has pockets of extreme wealth, like Marbella or Sotogrande. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_autonomous_communities_by_gross_domestic_product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_autonomous_com...
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Andalusia and Extremadura are at the bottom of the table of Spain's autonomous communities by GDP per Capita and HDI. They share metrics comparable to Sicily and other poorer parts of Southern and Eastern Europe such as Portugal. Before the rapid economic growth Spain saw in the 1980s, it was most likely even poorer and less developed. There is still a North-South divide in Spain with Communities Madrid northwards sharing economic and developmental indicators with Western European countries like France or Germany, while Southern Spain shares developmental and economic indicators closer to Portugal, Sicily, or other southern and Eastern European regions. The same issue plagues Southern Italy as well.
keenmaster 3y ago
I don’t see how this is supposed to be meaningful. Ancient Greece was incredible for its time, and modern Greece is relative poor. I hope we both agree that doesn’t diminish Greece’s past in any way.
dang 3y ago
"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- StackOverlord 3y ago
  Then make sure nobody from Eglin Air Force Base posts on here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit...
  - dang 3y ago
    I'm not quite sure I get your angle but HN users are as welcome from Eglin Air Force Base as from anywhere else, as long as they're using the site as intended. Why shouldn't they be interested in pedestrian footbridges in Minneapolis? (to mention one darling of the moment)

christkv 3y ago

Ah yes the beautiful myth of the Andalusian Paradise. Turns out it's probably just a myth. For a different historic take I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Andalusian-Paradise-Christians-Medieval/dp/1610170954 https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Andalusian-Paradise-Christians-M...

bigbillheck 3y ago
This book was published by Regnery in their ISI Books line and if you look at the rest of their catalog (https://www.regnery.com/books/isi-books/ https://www.regnery.com/books/isi-books/) there's a certain theme that's overwhelming. To be slightly more explicit, when so many of their other books are so obviously by and for right wing culture warriors, why would they have published this one if it was not? (And if you look outside that particular imprint the publisher's politics become even more obvious)
- Chris2048 3y ago
  Without knowing the content of those books, it's hard to judge if that's true. Or you'll have to explain why this is obvious.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    I knew nothing about ISI but after skimming through the book list at the bottom of the page, I mean that's pretty obvious…
    - Chris2048 3y ago
      Not to me. There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        > There are some conservative books there, but also general topics too. And that's exactly what to expect from a conservative library! There's no left-wing book, at all, in the shelves and that's a pretty clear sign. We can't know for sure if the “general topics” are themselves conservative, but the complete lack of left-wing PoV in collection, that doesn't bode well.

profeatur 3y ago

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6stringronin 3y ago

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pfannkuchen 3y ago
> Its always the same narrative talking about European colonization of the world, "yes, this is what armies/nations did back then, past is past" When talking about Spain or Constantinople, "look at the awful colonizers!" Who do you see saying these things today? In e.g. the early 1900s that was probably the common view, but today the common view in the west seems to be the exact opposite.
elcidcampeador 3y ago
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a-french-anon 3y ago
>What great monuments were left by the Europeans for their conquered? "What have the Romans ever done for us?"
onetimeusename 3y ago
> What great monuments were left by the Europeans for their conquered? India has a lot of British made buildings they try to preserve but a number of them have gone into disrepair which is unfortunate. Even so a number of them are still in use like Rashtrapati Bhavan which used to be a presidential palace. There are quite a few British made buildings still in use and considered architecturally and historically significant. >look up Mozarabic Rite. what about it? it existed prior to Al-Andalus. Christianity is a middle-eastern religion so you can find a lot of middle-eastern/Mediterranean influence in Early Christian rites/prayer and chants. > Respect for the local population seems like something European colonization never did when they spread their misery around the world. Christians were dhimmis under Muslim rule in Spain.
dang 3y ago
"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Simorgh 3y ago

I've recently been enjoying 'Tales of the Alhambra' which are folk stories collated by the American writer, Washington Irving. He visited Andalusia and gathered stories from the citizens of the region which harken back to the time of the Al-Andalus. I cannot recommend the book enough! The societies that he describes feel magical, enlightened, inspiring, thoughtful, advanced and romantic. I often wonder, 'how inspirational was Al-Andalus for contemporary Europeans?' The discovery and founding of America by Europeans itself has many parallels to the much earlier establishment of Al-Andalus. It too was an idealistic colony. Coincidentally, the word California - which symbolically marks a 'boundary of the west' of sorts - has an Arabic root!

capableweb 3y ago
Irving is directly referenced and quoted multiple times in the article, and so is his "travel memoir" Tales of the Alhambra (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49947/49947-h/49947-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49947/49947-h/49947-h.htm)

plinkplonk 3y ago

"Kingdoms of Faith" by Brian Catlos is an excellent book about Al Andalus, from the Arab invasion to the fall of Granada (the aftermath is not covered extensively).

elcidcampeador 3y ago

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29athrowaway 3y ago

No mention of the Toledo School of Translators, the equivalent to the Tizard mission of the 12th century. That event along with similar events in Italy and elsewhere was what truly triggered the Renaissance but historians in the West won't ever acknowledge it using that phrasing. Today, people are taught that Leonardo Da Vinci was hiding in a room somewhere and suddenly the Renaissance happened. That caliber of nonsense is necessary to explain the gap without recognizing the merit of other civilizations. Then you read this and realize that everything you have been taught about medieval times are fake feel-good stories about how the West is the light https://web.archive.org/web/20051210130856/http://umcc.ais.org/~maftab/ip/pdf/bktxt/hayy.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20051210130856/http://umcc.ais.o... (book written in 1160 CE) A brief extract: > Now 'tis established in the exact Sciences by precise demonstration, that the Sun is a Spherical Body, and so is the Earth; and that the Sun is much greater than the Earth; and that part of the Earth which is at all times illuminated by the Sun is above half of it; and that in that half which is illuminated, the Light is most intense in the midst, both because that part is the most remote from Darkness, as also, because it offers a greater surface to the Sun; and that those parts which are nearer the Circumference of the Circle, have less Light; and so gradually, till the Circumference of the Circle, which encompasses the illuminated part of the Earth, ends in Darkness. After the fall of Islamic civilization in the Iberian peninsula and the middle east, the world took many centuries to reach the same level of scientific progress from centuries earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law If the Mongols had not burned the Grand library of Baghdad you would be in a flying car right now talking with your friends on Mars.

laputan_machine 3y ago
Historically, Islamic philosophers (as they were then called) took works from the greek philosophers before them and expanded upon it. Then a few other philosphers who did not like people learning from non-muslims leaned hard into fundamentalism and you now have the kind of Islam (Salafist/Wahhabism) that exists today, e.g. Saudi Arabia The Mongols opened the door to fundamentalism, but it didn't have to go that way. The sack of Baghdad is a simplification Read up on Al Ghazali, it is eye-opening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

37074177throw 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i... I have to find the letter (possibly a Jewish reader can dig it out?) but I remember reading and being amused by a letter penned by Maimonides to iirc Jews in Arabian peninsula. Apparently they had written to him having heard of the paradise of tolerance in Muslim Spain and his letter poo pooing it, telling them it’s no better than their locale. I always read that letter as a sort of rabbinical wisdom on his part: he knew they wouldn’t be able to get there so he painted a dismal picture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Jewish historians today would support the dismal picture. There were indeed severe restrictions on Jews in Muslim-ruled Andalusia: they were forced to wear special clothing, to dwell in a mellah (a special neighbourhood), and were prevented from riding horses. Yes, Christian Europe imposed analogical restrictions, but Andalusia under Muslim rule could hardly be called tolerant.
Ligma123 3y ago
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- oa335 3y ago
  About that book: “ It would be a book-length corrective that would address and properly contextualize and source all of the errors that occur at every level in The Myth, from basic problems of terminology to broader methodological and interpretive flaws” - https://wp.nyu.edu/sjpearce/2017/03/17/paradise-lost/ https://wp.nyu.edu/sjpearce/2017/03/17/paradise-lost/
- whims31 3y ago
  It really depends on the historical context. I don't know what the standards were for the period but i saw this random tidbit from wikipedia while reading up on the Roma people (Note : this was after the era of the Andalus ): >From 1510 onwards, any Romani found in Switzerland were to be executed; while in England (beginning in 1554) and Denmark (beginning of 1589) any Romani which did not leave within a month were to be executed. Portugal began deportations of Romanis to its colonies in 1538. Compared to getting executed for being at the the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong ethnicity, Andalus may well have been a oasis of tolerance in Europe, relatively speaking.

jmyeet 3y ago

A podcaster I listen to said something that stuck with me. He doesn’t care who invented the light bulb. That would’ve happened anyway. What’s way more interesting is events that could’ve completely changed human history. Like if Julius Caesar lost in Gaul or the Persians had defeated the Greeks or the Mongols had invaded Europe. On that list had to be what if Islam had spread throughout Europe? It very much could’ve at different points. Not just the Moors but later the Ottomans.

satvikpendem 3y ago
Is that podcaster Dan Carlin of Hardcore History? I recall him saying something similar, about the Great Man theory of history.
SenAnder 3y ago
> what if Islam had spread throughout Europe? For much of Europe, it did. If you take a look at the maps of various Islamic empires, there remains a fairly small part of Europe that was never ruled by them. Practically speaking, what is called 'Europe' today are just the parts that were never conquered, or were later retaken. The rest we call e.g. Turkey.
xhkkffbf 3y ago
I believe that Henry the Eighth was talking with some of the Muslim calliphates in Northern Africa around the time he broke from Rome. He could have gone Islamic but decided to set up his own church instead. Who knows how it would have worked out if he chose differently.

ROTMetro 3y ago

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GreenWatermelon 3y ago
You seem to have mistaken the Ottomans for the Andalusians, and went of on a rant.
oa335 3y ago
You are utterly confused between Ottomans and Andalusians, as well as Janissaries vs eunuchs.
stryan 3y ago
Janissaries were part of the Ottoman Empire starting in 1300s, while this article is about Muslim Spain, which lasted until 1400s at the latest. So, ignoring the rest of the bait in your content, no they did not have Janissaries.
Simorgh 3y ago
The Janissary were a part of the Ottoman Empire - which was on 'other end' of Europe, geographically. The Janissaries were not eunuchs. Eunuchs were also an element of society in Ancient Rome. I'm pointing out that it was not considered in previous ages, as it is today. As an example Italians would castrate boys prepped for singing opera - castrati - until the 1800s, it seems. Is the idealism of a successful society ever not of the elites and the rulers? I have read somewhere that the monarchs of Al-Andalus often had Visigoth (i.e. Spanish) lineage. Arabic may have been their lingua franca, but their society may have been essentially Spanish in many ways, just not 'Christian Spanish'. I think that the decline and fall of Al-Andalus may have been mostly a result of internal divisions, conflict and civil war. The Reconquista was however from without, the terror of the Spanish Inquisition was what followed, for the newly conquered.
keenmaster 3y ago
Janissaries were a uniquely Ottoman practice, and evoke something completely different than Muslim Andalucia. Also, I don’t believe that the Ottomans mutilated Janissaries in the way you described - that would be counterproductive, since strength is important in the military, especially with highly motivated elite soldiers. Look it up, that’s a popular myth, no more real than the Unsullied in Game of Thrones. In contrast to the Ottoman Empire, no one talks about some great Andalusian army. Al-Andalus was known for its culture, architecture, scientific innovation, multiculturalism, etc…that being said, the American school system doesn’t really cover Al-Andalus, the so-called Islamic Golden Age, and Muslim advancement of the frontier of knowledge.

ROTMetro 3y ago

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exo-pla-net 3y ago
Sucked that they did that. But they were there for centuries; their kids didn't do it. If Moorish descendents are bereft of virtue owing to the sins of their fathers, does the same apply to the descendents of the European invaders of America?
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  I read condemnation on this site every day against Europeans/Americans because of things done in the past that we were not a part of. Yes, a social structure similar to Jim Crow in the USA should be condemned not celebrated as being tolerant or some mythical place. It was not a good culture, it was not kind. Islam only allowed enslavement on non-muslims. Nice 'tolerance'. You shouldn't enslave people, and my people we mean non-believers. As many as 1.25 million white Europeans were enslaved by Islamic slavers. Much tolerance, much beauty.
  - exo-pla-net 3y ago
    I don't believe that the article was celebrating Islamic culture as a whole. It looked at their residual food/architecture. I furthermore don't know that there is a monolithic Islamic culture. Kurdish culture is a heck of a lot different than Afghani culture. Europeans and Americans did plenty of slaving. It's almost like it's a human thing, not a religion thing. I think you need to touch grass, friend. Dehumanization of the infidels is what allowed Moors to enslave Europeans. Take care not to become their mirror image.

100k 3y ago

I got interested in Al-Andalus when I visited Tarragona, where the Moors pushed out the Visigoths and ruled for 400 years. A short book I recommend is Moorish Spain by Richard Fletcher (https://www.amazon.com/Moorish-Spain-Richard-Fletcher/dp/0520248406 https://www.amazon.com/Moorish-Spain-Richard-Fletcher/dp/052...). It's a quick and engaging read covering the conquest and slow rollback of Muslim rule.