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NASA officials sound alarm over future of the Deep Space Network

214 points by bpierre 3y ago

RecycledEle 3y ago
If You think it's bad now, wait until Starship starts dumping hundreds of tons of space probes all over. The obvious solution is more big antennas on Earth and network if store-and-forward relays all over the Solar System. I predict they'll get cheap instead of fixing it.
- palata 3y ago
  > The obvious solution is more big antennas on Earth Or sending less crap in space...
navels 3y ago
The problem of intergalactic communication is a plot point in this fantastic sci-fi novel I am currently reading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep) cannot recommend enough although it doesn't really inform the current conversation :-)
westurner 3y ago
Loophole-free solutions that do not violate Bell's; entanglement communication: Entangled satellites and QKD repeaters do exist. Godel had a few interesting spacetime solutions that may be helpful for Deep Space Communications. Evolved Antenna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna Rogue wave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave Can DSN be scaled? Or would it be best to use quantum radio? Hawking radiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation Perhaps if Hawking radiation is in all the things, Hawking radiation could be used for DSN-like communications. When phenomena in the quantum foam "dissolve", is there an ~ejection fraction? Couldn't there be ±t per minimally perturbable effect in the quantum foam, though? Maybe internet/p2p-like routing algorithms, or, which field/wave/fluid perturbations are omnidirectional? Rydberg antenna / Rydberg sensor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydberg_atom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydberg_atom > The Rydberg sensor can reliably detect signals over the entire spectrum and compare favourably with other established electric field sensor technologies, such as electro-optic crystals and dipole antenna-coupled passive electronics.[59][60]
- westurner 3y ago
  Additional methods that could potentially be useful if Godel-like wormholes and massless particles are still considered infeasible: Ambient backscatter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_backscatter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_backscatter Backscatter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter Passive W-Fi: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_Wi-Fi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_Wi-Fi LiFi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi With ambient backscatter, passive WiFi is already implemented; and maybe someday backscatter LiFi could achieve very high signal efficiency at low-energy in deep space, too? . Could there be deviations from stable patterns in the CMB: Cosmic Microwave Background? Quantum navigation maps such signal sources such that inexpensive sensors can achieve something like inertial navigation FWIU? . "Smaller, more versatile antenna could be a communications game-changer" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37337628 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37337628 : > LightSlingers use volume-distributed polarization currents, animated within a dielectric to faster-than-light [FTL] speeds, to emit electromagnetic waves. (By contrast, traditional antennas employ surface currents of subluminally moving massive particles on localized metallic elements such as dipoles.) Owing to the superluminal motion of the radiation source, LightSlingers are capable of “slinging” tightly focused wave packets with high precision toward a location of choice. This gives them potential advantages over phased arrays in secure communications such as 4G and 5G local networks . /? Curved photon beams: https://www.google.com/search?q=curved+photon+beam https://www.google.com/search?q=curved+photon+beam . Newer Waveguide approaches; - "Experiment demonstrates continuously operating optical fiber made of thin air" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35812168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35812168 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408561 - https://phys.org/news/2023-06-trillionths-photon-pairs-compress-electron.html https://phys.org/news/2023-06-trillionths-photon-pairs-compr... : > The physicists chose the incidence angles and frequencies so that the co-propagating electrons, which fly through vacuum at half the speed of light, overlap with optical wave crests and troughs of exactly the same speed . PROMPT: Read/write nonlocal spacetime with minimal perturbations at safe energy levels for high-throughput data transmission over astronomical-scale distances
westurner 3y ago
DSN: Deep Space Network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Deep_Space_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Deep_Space_Network
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ourmandave 3y ago
  Do the good people at the Flat Earth Society have any response to 'splain this away? =D
  - engineer_22 3y ago
    The last time a Flat Earther tried to do science they proved the earth was curved. [1] [1] - Flat-Earther accidentally proves the earth is round in his own experiment https://youtu.be/GFqmDazwb6Y?si=4umT9XKG6ZCdJWKU https://youtu.be/GFqmDazwb6Y?si=4umT9XKG6ZCdJWKU
  - westurner 3y ago
    The Holographic Principle says that spacetime is 2D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle (Indeed, though, all of the other rotating bodies in n-body gravity fluid spacetime which are visible from here appear to have assumed the shape of a sphere probably like ~fixed-point attraction; and there's no way to swim to the edge)
    - Filligree 3y ago
      Not so much that it is 2D, as that there’s a mathematical transformation you can do that lets you calculate its evolution in a 2D space. Which can be useful. The “is” question is harder to evaluate, but to the degree it’s a meaningful question I’d say “probably not”.
      - westurner 3y ago
        How do fluids compress at the edge of a rotating 2D disc manifold then? Maybe it's like Conway's Game or does it wrap around at the edge of the statically-dimensioned tensor?
datavirtue 3y ago
Why are we just hearing about this? Should have been trickling this out because I can't see the citizens jumping to provide funding for this. They are trying to figure out how their teenagers can afford food, car, and college while taking care of grandma. Sounds like a first world problem and the message to struggling citizens has been: make do.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  You're just hearing about it because it's now in pop-sci. Congress has been hearing about it forever. DSN has been a constrained resource for a long, long time.
- Ultimatt 3y ago
  Why would a teenager bother going to college, if the society they live in is decaying and doesn't even maintain capabilities it held three generations prior. Especially if the communicated focus from their parents is to only ever worry about feeding grandma and driving a car.
- tetris11 3y ago
  The cynical way I interpret this: "We need private enterprise to step in to fill this gap, because the public infrastructure is failing".
excalibur 3y ago
Problems with the DSN? This is bad! Let's launch a bunch of CubeSats to fly over the antennae and monitor them for issues!
jvanderbot 3y ago
TL;DR the quantity is killing the quality. There are so many small cubesat-style missions that we're actually losing communications time with James Webb to keep track of them all. And Artemis is going to swamp everything with downlink data rates. I worked at JPL, sometimes with the folks mentioned in this article. I suspect this is a money problem, not a technology problem. IIRC, everyone knows optical (laser) comms are going to carry a lot more load, and the DSN build-out plan already specs more ground-stations with smaller radii (better for closer tracking) vs larger dishes (better for voyager / juno style missions). There's also been commercial support (e.g., Amazon[1]) These folks know how to do it effectively and efficiently (and cheaply) just need the resources and permission. 1. https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/amazon-launches-aws-ground-station-service/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/amazon-launches-a...
- PaulGaspardo 3y ago
  The Psyche mission launching in October (to the asteroid of the same name) will include a laser-based communication system technology demonstration, the first beyond the Moon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Optical_Communications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Optical_Communicati... And here on Earth there's a new DSN antenna currently under construction at Goldstone (California) that will be capable of handling both radio and optical signals. https://www.peraton.com/news/meet-dss-23-the-112-foot-wide-addition-to-the-deep-space-network/ https://www.peraton.com/news/meet-dss-23-the-112-foot-wide-a... So nothing operational yet, but stuff is happening.
dmix 3y ago
> We're not going to have bits of data. We're going to have gigabits of data," said Philip Baldwin, acting director of the network services division at JPL. "I don't want 1080p for video resolution. I want 8K video." Is this a reason why India's moon craft had such low resolution images? I checked and the rover only has 2x 1 megapixel cameras for some 3d stuff. The pictures from the lander were the usual low res generic stuff we've always gotten. Why cant they put a 4k lense on these things? That has to have scientific value even for looking at their own rovers/landers for defects.
- squigaviator 3y ago
  The problem with newer sensors and such is that they're not designed to handle the stress of going into space as well withstanding the greatly increased radiation exposure on Mars and the Moon. The missions to send stuff up into space is already expensive and so you'll have to reduce the chances of the gear you're sending up of failing. Unless you can afford to keep making trips to Mars until you get something there that works and then stays working long enough to do viable work.
  - bozhark 3y ago
    That seems so counter productive
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    The experimental helicopter on Mars might start to change the equation though -- it's built with many commercial grade components, instead of fancier things, and has worked well above expectations. The CPU is just a regular Snapdragon, like in phones. https://spectrum.ieee.org/nasa-designed-perseverance-helicopter-rover-fly-autonomously-mars https://spectrum.ieee.org/nasa-designed-perseverance-helicop...
- dr_orpheus 3y ago
  > Why cant they put a 4k lense on these things Bigger focal plane means more power, more data processing/storage means more power. More power means more solar arrays/batteries. More solar arrays/batteries means more mass. More mass means larger actuators to move it around. Larger actuators means more power...all of the above means more money. I can't give a specific reason why, but there are likely cascading effects and system impacts to the mission. Its not like larger space rated focal planes, larger data storage and high powered amplifiers to get more data down don't exist. But at some point you do just have to call it "good enough" or "meets requirements" to avoid the system spiraling out of control.
xwdv 3y ago
Ok so where do we donate money?
- mattkrause 3y ago
  irs.gov
  - xwdv 3y ago
    I can’t believe no one but the IRS wants all this money.
  - mminer237 3y ago
    It's actually part of the BFS, not the IRS: https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624 https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624
  - kaliqt 3y ago
    If you want it to go straight into the shredder, sure.
- westurner 3y ago
  AMZN! Because they have AWS Ground Station https://aws.amazon.com/ground-station/ https://aws.amazon.com/ground-station/ : > AWS Ground Station Easily control satellites and ingest data with fully managed Ground Station as a Service But that doesn't solve for limited availability of regulated spectra or spectra regulation. Can ionizing radiation affect trapped ions in crystal lattice quantum sensors, for fiber optics? FWIU degree of collinearity is the degree of quantum entanglement for photons and probably also phonons in a vacuum?
DonnyV 3y ago
[flagged]
- jmondi 3y ago
  We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
sinuhe69 3y ago
For near-earth communications, I don't see why they can not use the SpaceX network or similar instead. Tracking these tiny CubeSats with only 3 DSN dishes are insane! DSN should really work for deep-space missions only. I believe that NASA recognized the problem and potential solutions, but they moved slowly probably due to their clunky bureaucracy. > NASA relies on commercial ground stations for more than half of its ground station support for the agency's satellites in low-Earth orbit. NASA last year selected SpaceX, Amazon, Viasat, Telecast, SES, and Inmarsat to begin developing commercial capabilities to replace the government-owned Tracking and Data Relay Satellite network, which is used for near-continuous connectivity with the International Space Station and other satellites closer to Earth.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Those CubeSats were a deep-space mission. Out near the Moon. The TDRSS is separate from DSN. Expanding low-orbit options won't do anything to help here.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    I didn’t realize Cubesats could go that far. That’s really great.
    - PaulGaspardo 3y ago
      CubeSats have gone all the way to Mars even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Cube_One https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Cube_One
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Cubesats have been out as far as Mars. There were two which hitched a ride along Perseverance and deployed prior to Mars entry to serve as relays and collect data on the entry, descent and landing phases of the mission.
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  Ukraine has been having trouble with the Starlink because Putin & Musk are pals. It isn't safe for our country to depend on someone that flaky.
pro-kythera 3y ago
So the DSN has some properties of cooperative multitasking ... what could go wrong? > “When Artemis comes online, everybody else moves out of the way, and it’s an impact to all the science missions, even the flagship science missions," Dodd said. > What makes CubeSats appealing to NASA and research scientists is what makes them unappealing to the Deep Space Network, Dodd said. ... "When your DSN is oversubscribed, I don't think it's a good use to put throwaway missions on the same set of antennas.
NKosmatos 3y ago
This is ridiculous from NASA point of view :-( They're shooting their self in the foot. They should fund the DSN and make sure that not only all antennas are operational, but build new ones at the 3 locations or even better create additional locations. A strike from DSN personnel would teach NASA to spend some money on dish antennas. It's insane to "throw" hundred of billions of USD for Artemis and not invest 1 billion for the comms infrastructure. I guess it won't be long until a "genius" manager comes up with the idea of DSNaaS (Deep Space Network as a Service) :-) Bonus link, live console/status of the DSN: https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html
- binkHN 3y ago
  > ...live console/status of the DSN: https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html Very cool--you can even see the data rate for each one, AND the animation changes if the data rate is higher.
  - secondcoming 3y ago
    This is highly likely to be a dumb question, but can each dish only communicate with one object at a time?
    - wl 3y ago
      These are highly directional antennas that are pointed at the vehicles they’re communicating with.
    - bikezen 3y ago
      Yes, though sometimes we use something called "bent pipe" where we communicate with something like MRO who is then communicating to an asset on the ground at Mars, so technically we're talking to two assets, but not "really"
    - dr_orpheus 3y ago
      The DSN stations can receive from multiple spacecraft at the same time, but can only transmit to one. If you look at the DSN status station and click on the details sometimes you will see them in "MSPA (Multiple Spacecraft Per Antenna) mode". Looks like they can do 4 at the same time [0]. You will typically see this for Mars spacecraft where there are multiple within the beamwidth of the antenna. It also looks like they have proposed some options to provide additional downlink by doing raw recording of the intermediate frequency with a high bandwidth receiver and doing the demodulation with additional processing to get telemetry/data for more spacecraft [1]. So they could support getting more data, but not necessarily "realtime" data. [0] https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/dsndocs/810-005/206/206D.pdf https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/dsndocs/810-005/206/206D.pdf [1] https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-200/200B.pdf https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-200/200B.pdf
MR4D 3y ago
I don't understand why one of the first priorities for NASA and the moon isn't a satellite communications systems designed for the moon. I truly believe that NASA would fare much better if they focused on regulation, deep space research, and communication. They already do the first 2, but for some reason, they neglect communication. They build these fantastic probes, but then don't build out a communication network. This *despite the fact that they have people like Vint Cerf at their disposal !! This just boggles my mind. Once they build out for the moon, they could have a blueprint for deep space, while still being easy enough to iterate on designs (the moon being a much closer and easier to reach target, thereby reducing the development/test/feedback loop, as they wouldn't have to wait 6+ months for travel time.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  It is one of their priorities. https://tempo.gsfc.nasa.gov/projects/LCRNS?tab=overview https://tempo.gsfc.nasa.gov/projects/LCRNS?tab=overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Lunar_Mission_Support_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Lunar_Mission_Suppo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LunaNet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LunaNet
  - MR4D 3y ago
    The first two words of your NASA link are "In 2022.." they established it. NASA started way after artemis, which strongly suggests this is an afterthought. The documents are design and planning of the architecture, - nowhere near rollout. Further, STMD doesn't even mention anything close to communications on it's home page (correct me if I missed it). It's also not listed on their Spacetech page [0]. Also, teh LNSS project only goes so far as a demonstration scheduled for 2028 that will test whether they can pick up earth-GPS signals on the moon. [1] Communications is essential to growing work outside of earth orbit. Nowhere do I see that NASA has this as a "priority". Now, it's possible that NASA has 1,000 priorities, but that just means they have none. I appreciate the ESA link - glad to see they are doing something about this, but I was referring to the article about NASA and NASA priorities. I get that we share things, but really, there is nothing significantly there regarding NASA. [0] - https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/programs https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/programs [1] - https://www.gps.gov/cgsic/meetings/2022/murata.pdf https://www.gps.gov/cgsic/meetings/2022/murata.pdf
eterevsky 3y ago
Aren't missions paying for the usage of DSN? How come a small cubesat gets the amount of time on the network comparable to JWST? Could this be commercialized? If there's high demand it should be profitable to build new dishes to increase bandwidth.
- snowwrestler 3y ago
  I don’t think missions are individually billed for DSN time, rather DSN time is allocated according to NASA internal priorities. Which is a classic resourcing problem in bureaucracies. That also explains the challenge for private investment. If none of the missions are budgeted to buy bandwidth, then you would have no customers for a private DSN service.
- dr_orpheus 3y ago
  Yes and no. There are usage cost times for DSN stations [0]. That link is old and says it is on the order of $1000/hr in 2009. Inflation adjusted it would be more, but I think costs have actually risen to closer to a $5000/hr. Theoretically each of the eight cubesat missions would be paying this cost, so that would come out to $500k that each of them would be paying. Not a lot for larger space missions, but may be a lot for a cubesat mission. However, I doubt that they are all paying for this and is was just part of the usage agreement to host their mission on Artemis. Some of the cubesats are also NASA sponsored so they would just be paying themselves. It likely is somewhat profitable, but would require a huge investment. Some have suggested (can't find the source) that the DSN should be charging closer to $35,000/hr to cover costs of maintenance and building new dishes to expand the network, but NASA themselves can't be a for profit company. So if there was someone providing commercial ground services for deep space, lets say with commercial efficiency they get services to cost $20,000/hr. Great! But why would I do that if I can still go to DSN and pay $5000. But as the article indicates there were probably be a reckoning soon because I've already heard people describe scheduling and allocation of DSN time at JPL as a battle royale. https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/files/6_NASA_MOCS_2014_10_01_14.pdf https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/files/6_NASA_MOCS_2014_10_01_...
kaliqt 3y ago
Wellp, at this rate they should just ask SpaceX to do it for Mars and piggyback off it for everything else.

214 points by bpierre 3y ago

If You think it's bad now, wait until Starship starts dumping hundreds of tons of space probes all over. The obvious solution is more big antennas on Earth and network if store-and-forward relays all over the Solar System. I predict they'll get cheap instead of fixing it.

palata 3y ago
> The obvious solution is more big antennas on Earth Or sending less crap in space...

navels 3y ago

The problem of intergalactic communication is a plot point in this fantastic sci-fi novel I am currently reading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep) cannot recommend enough although it doesn't really inform the current conversation :-)

westurner 3y ago

Loophole-free solutions that do not violate Bell's; entanglement communication: Entangled satellites and QKD repeaters do exist. Godel had a few interesting spacetime solutions that may be helpful for Deep Space Communications. Evolved Antenna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna Rogue wave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave Can DSN be scaled? Or would it be best to use quantum radio? Hawking radiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation Perhaps if Hawking radiation is in all the things, Hawking radiation could be used for DSN-like communications. When phenomena in the quantum foam "dissolve", is there an ~ejection fraction? Couldn't there be ±t per minimally perturbable effect in the quantum foam, though? Maybe internet/p2p-like routing algorithms, or, which field/wave/fluid perturbations are omnidirectional? Rydberg antenna / Rydberg sensor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydberg_atom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rydberg_atom > The Rydberg sensor can reliably detect signals over the entire spectrum and compare favourably with other established electric field sensor technologies, such as electro-optic crystals and dipole antenna-coupled passive electronics.[59][60]

westurner 3y ago
Additional methods that could potentially be useful if Godel-like wormholes and massless particles are still considered infeasible: Ambient backscatter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_backscatter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_backscatter Backscatter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter Passive W-Fi: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_Wi-Fi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_Wi-Fi LiFi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi With ambient backscatter, passive WiFi is already implemented; and maybe someday backscatter LiFi could achieve very high signal efficiency at low-energy in deep space, too? . Could there be deviations from stable patterns in the CMB: Cosmic Microwave Background? Quantum navigation maps such signal sources such that inexpensive sensors can achieve something like inertial navigation FWIU? . "Smaller, more versatile antenna could be a communications game-changer" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37337628 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37337628 : > LightSlingers use volume-distributed polarization currents, animated within a dielectric to faster-than-light [FTL] speeds, to emit electromagnetic waves. (By contrast, traditional antennas employ surface currents of subluminally moving massive particles on localized metallic elements such as dipoles.) Owing to the superluminal motion of the radiation source, LightSlingers are capable of “slinging” tightly focused wave packets with high precision toward a location of choice. This gives them potential advantages over phased arrays in secure communications such as 4G and 5G local networks . /? Curved photon beams: https://www.google.com/search?q=curved+photon+beam https://www.google.com/search?q=curved+photon+beam . Newer Waveguide approaches; - "Experiment demonstrates continuously operating optical fiber made of thin air" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35812168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35812168 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408561 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36408561 - https://phys.org/news/2023-06-trillionths-photon-pairs-compress-electron.html https://phys.org/news/2023-06-trillionths-photon-pairs-compr... : > The physicists chose the incidence angles and frequencies so that the co-propagating electrons, which fly through vacuum at half the speed of light, overlap with optical wave crests and troughs of exactly the same speed . PROMPT: Read/write nonlocal spacetime with minimal perturbations at safe energy levels for high-throughput data transmission over astronomical-scale distances

westurner 3y ago

DSN: Deep Space Network: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Deep_Space_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Deep_Space_Network

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ourmandave 3y ago
Do the good people at the Flat Earth Society have any response to 'splain this away? =D
- engineer_22 3y ago
  The last time a Flat Earther tried to do science they proved the earth was curved. [1] [1] - Flat-Earther accidentally proves the earth is round in his own experiment https://youtu.be/GFqmDazwb6Y?si=4umT9XKG6ZCdJWKU https://youtu.be/GFqmDazwb6Y?si=4umT9XKG6ZCdJWKU
- westurner 3y ago
  The Holographic Principle says that spacetime is 2D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle (Indeed, though, all of the other rotating bodies in n-body gravity fluid spacetime which are visible from here appear to have assumed the shape of a sphere probably like ~fixed-point attraction; and there's no way to swim to the edge)
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Not so much that it is 2D, as that there’s a mathematical transformation you can do that lets you calculate its evolution in a 2D space. Which can be useful. The “is” question is harder to evaluate, but to the degree it’s a meaningful question I’d say “probably not”.
    - westurner 3y ago
      How do fluids compress at the edge of a rotating 2D disc manifold then? Maybe it's like Conway's Game or does it wrap around at the edge of the statically-dimensioned tensor?

datavirtue 3y ago

Why are we just hearing about this? Should have been trickling this out because I can't see the citizens jumping to provide funding for this. They are trying to figure out how their teenagers can afford food, car, and college while taking care of grandma. Sounds like a first world problem and the message to struggling citizens has been: make do.

jvanderbot 3y ago
You're just hearing about it because it's now in pop-sci. Congress has been hearing about it forever. DSN has been a constrained resource for a long, long time.
Ultimatt 3y ago
Why would a teenager bother going to college, if the society they live in is decaying and doesn't even maintain capabilities it held three generations prior. Especially if the communicated focus from their parents is to only ever worry about feeding grandma and driving a car.
tetris11 3y ago
The cynical way I interpret this: "We need private enterprise to step in to fill this gap, because the public infrastructure is failing".

excalibur 3y ago

Problems with the DSN? This is bad! Let's launch a bunch of CubeSats to fly over the antennae and monitor them for issues!

jvanderbot 3y ago

TL;DR the quantity is killing the quality. There are so many small cubesat-style missions that we're actually losing communications time with James Webb to keep track of them all. And Artemis is going to swamp everything with downlink data rates. I worked at JPL, sometimes with the folks mentioned in this article. I suspect this is a money problem, not a technology problem. IIRC, everyone knows optical (laser) comms are going to carry a lot more load, and the DSN build-out plan already specs more ground-stations with smaller radii (better for closer tracking) vs larger dishes (better for voyager / juno style missions). There's also been commercial support (e.g., Amazon[1]) These folks know how to do it effectively and efficiently (and cheaply) just need the resources and permission. 1. https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/amazon-launches-aws-ground-station-service/ https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/amazon-launches-a...

PaulGaspardo 3y ago
The Psyche mission launching in October (to the asteroid of the same name) will include a laser-based communication system technology demonstration, the first beyond the Moon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Optical_Communications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Optical_Communicati... And here on Earth there's a new DSN antenna currently under construction at Goldstone (California) that will be capable of handling both radio and optical signals. https://www.peraton.com/news/meet-dss-23-the-112-foot-wide-addition-to-the-deep-space-network/ https://www.peraton.com/news/meet-dss-23-the-112-foot-wide-a... So nothing operational yet, but stuff is happening.

dmix 3y ago

> We're not going to have bits of data. We're going to have gigabits of data," said Philip Baldwin, acting director of the network services division at JPL. "I don't want 1080p for video resolution. I want 8K video." Is this a reason why India's moon craft had such low resolution images? I checked and the rover only has 2x 1 megapixel cameras for some 3d stuff. The pictures from the lander were the usual low res generic stuff we've always gotten. Why cant they put a 4k lense on these things? That has to have scientific value even for looking at their own rovers/landers for defects.

squigaviator 3y ago
The problem with newer sensors and such is that they're not designed to handle the stress of going into space as well withstanding the greatly increased radiation exposure on Mars and the Moon. The missions to send stuff up into space is already expensive and so you'll have to reduce the chances of the gear you're sending up of failing. Unless you can afford to keep making trips to Mars until you get something there that works and then stays working long enough to do viable work.
- bozhark 3y ago
  That seems so counter productive
- yencabulator 3y ago
  The experimental helicopter on Mars might start to change the equation though -- it's built with many commercial grade components, instead of fancier things, and has worked well above expectations. The CPU is just a regular Snapdragon, like in phones. https://spectrum.ieee.org/nasa-designed-perseverance-helicopter-rover-fly-autonomously-mars https://spectrum.ieee.org/nasa-designed-perseverance-helicop...
dr_orpheus 3y ago
> Why cant they put a 4k lense on these things Bigger focal plane means more power, more data processing/storage means more power. More power means more solar arrays/batteries. More solar arrays/batteries means more mass. More mass means larger actuators to move it around. Larger actuators means more power...all of the above means more money. I can't give a specific reason why, but there are likely cascading effects and system impacts to the mission. Its not like larger space rated focal planes, larger data storage and high powered amplifiers to get more data down don't exist. But at some point you do just have to call it "good enough" or "meets requirements" to avoid the system spiraling out of control.

xwdv 3y ago

Ok so where do we donate money?

mattkrause 3y ago
irs.gov
- xwdv 3y ago
  I can’t believe no one but the IRS wants all this money.
- mminer237 3y ago
  It's actually part of the BFS, not the IRS: https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624 https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624
- kaliqt 3y ago
  If you want it to go straight into the shredder, sure.
westurner 3y ago
AMZN! Because they have AWS Ground Station https://aws.amazon.com/ground-station/ https://aws.amazon.com/ground-station/ : > AWS Ground Station Easily control satellites and ingest data with fully managed Ground Station as a Service But that doesn't solve for limited availability of regulated spectra or spectra regulation. Can ionizing radiation affect trapped ions in crystal lattice quantum sensors, for fiber optics? FWIU degree of collinearity is the degree of quantum entanglement for photons and probably also phonons in a vacuum?

DonnyV 3y ago

[flagged]

jmondi 3y ago
We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

sinuhe69 3y ago

For near-earth communications, I don't see why they can not use the SpaceX network or similar instead. Tracking these tiny CubeSats with only 3 DSN dishes are insane! DSN should really work for deep-space missions only. I believe that NASA recognized the problem and potential solutions, but they moved slowly probably due to their clunky bureaucracy. > NASA relies on commercial ground stations for more than half of its ground station support for the agency's satellites in low-Earth orbit. NASA last year selected SpaceX, Amazon, Viasat, Telecast, SES, and Inmarsat to begin developing commercial capabilities to replace the government-owned Tracking and Data Relay Satellite network, which is used for near-continuous connectivity with the International Space Station and other satellites closer to Earth.

ceejayoz 3y ago
Those CubeSats were a deep-space mission. Out near the Moon. The TDRSS is separate from DSN. Expanding low-orbit options won't do anything to help here.
- JCharante 3y ago
  I didn’t realize Cubesats could go that far. That’s really great.
  - PaulGaspardo 3y ago
    CubeSats have gone all the way to Mars even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Cube_One https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Cube_One
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Cubesats have been out as far as Mars. There were two which hitched a ride along Perseverance and deployed prior to Mars entry to serve as relays and collect data on the entry, descent and landing phases of the mission.
Tangurena2 3y ago
Ukraine has been having trouble with the Starlink because Putin & Musk are pals. It isn't safe for our country to depend on someone that flaky.

pro-kythera 3y ago

So the DSN has some properties of cooperative multitasking ... what could go wrong? > “When Artemis comes online, everybody else moves out of the way, and it’s an impact to all the science missions, even the flagship science missions," Dodd said. > What makes CubeSats appealing to NASA and research scientists is what makes them unappealing to the Deep Space Network, Dodd said. ... "When your DSN is oversubscribed, I don't think it's a good use to put throwaway missions on the same set of antennas.

NKosmatos 3y ago

This is ridiculous from NASA point of view :-( They're shooting their self in the foot. They should fund the DSN and make sure that not only all antennas are operational, but build new ones at the 3 locations or even better create additional locations. A strike from DSN personnel would teach NASA to spend some money on dish antennas. It's insane to "throw" hundred of billions of USD for Artemis and not invest 1 billion for the comms infrastructure. I guess it won't be long until a "genius" manager comes up with the idea of DSNaaS (Deep Space Network as a Service) :-) Bonus link, live console/status of the DSN: https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html

binkHN 3y ago
> ...live console/status of the DSN: https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html Very cool--you can even see the data rate for each one, AND the animation changes if the data rate is higher.
- secondcoming 3y ago
  This is highly likely to be a dumb question, but can each dish only communicate with one object at a time?
  - wl 3y ago
    These are highly directional antennas that are pointed at the vehicles they’re communicating with.
  - bikezen 3y ago
    Yes, though sometimes we use something called "bent pipe" where we communicate with something like MRO who is then communicating to an asset on the ground at Mars, so technically we're talking to two assets, but not "really"
  - dr_orpheus 3y ago
    The DSN stations can receive from multiple spacecraft at the same time, but can only transmit to one. If you look at the DSN status station and click on the details sometimes you will see them in "MSPA (Multiple Spacecraft Per Antenna) mode". Looks like they can do 4 at the same time [0]. You will typically see this for Mars spacecraft where there are multiple within the beamwidth of the antenna. It also looks like they have proposed some options to provide additional downlink by doing raw recording of the intermediate frequency with a high bandwidth receiver and doing the demodulation with additional processing to get telemetry/data for more spacecraft [1]. So they could support getting more data, but not necessarily "realtime" data. [0] https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/dsndocs/810-005/206/206D.pdf https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/dsndocs/810-005/206/206D.pdf [1] https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-200/200B.pdf https://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-200/200B.pdf

MR4D 3y ago

I don't understand why one of the first priorities for NASA and the moon isn't a satellite communications systems designed for the moon. I truly believe that NASA would fare much better if they focused on regulation, deep space research, and communication. They already do the first 2, but for some reason, they neglect communication. They build these fantastic probes, but then don't build out a communication network. This *despite the fact that they have people like Vint Cerf at their disposal !! This just boggles my mind. Once they build out for the moon, they could have a blueprint for deep space, while still being easy enough to iterate on designs (the moon being a much closer and easier to reach target, thereby reducing the development/test/feedback loop, as they wouldn't have to wait 6+ months for travel time.

ceejayoz 3y ago
It is one of their priorities. https://tempo.gsfc.nasa.gov/projects/LCRNS?tab=overview https://tempo.gsfc.nasa.gov/projects/LCRNS?tab=overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Lunar_Mission_Support_Services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Lunar_Mission_Suppo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LunaNet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LunaNet
- MR4D 3y ago
  The first two words of your NASA link are "In 2022.." they established it. NASA started way after artemis, which strongly suggests this is an afterthought. The documents are design and planning of the architecture, - nowhere near rollout. Further, STMD doesn't even mention anything close to communications on it's home page (correct me if I missed it). It's also not listed on their Spacetech page [0]. Also, teh LNSS project only goes so far as a demonstration scheduled for 2028 that will test whether they can pick up earth-GPS signals on the moon. [1] Communications is essential to growing work outside of earth orbit. Nowhere do I see that NASA has this as a "priority". Now, it's possible that NASA has 1,000 priorities, but that just means they have none. I appreciate the ESA link - glad to see they are doing something about this, but I was referring to the article about NASA and NASA priorities. I get that we share things, but really, there is nothing significantly there regarding NASA. [0] - https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/programs https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/programs [1] - https://www.gps.gov/cgsic/meetings/2022/murata.pdf https://www.gps.gov/cgsic/meetings/2022/murata.pdf

eterevsky 3y ago

Aren't missions paying for the usage of DSN? How come a small cubesat gets the amount of time on the network comparable to JWST? Could this be commercialized? If there's high demand it should be profitable to build new dishes to increase bandwidth.

snowwrestler 3y ago
I don’t think missions are individually billed for DSN time, rather DSN time is allocated according to NASA internal priorities. Which is a classic resourcing problem in bureaucracies. That also explains the challenge for private investment. If none of the missions are budgeted to buy bandwidth, then you would have no customers for a private DSN service.
dr_orpheus 3y ago
Yes and no. There are usage cost times for DSN stations [0]. That link is old and says it is on the order of $1000/hr in 2009. Inflation adjusted it would be more, but I think costs have actually risen to closer to a $5000/hr. Theoretically each of the eight cubesat missions would be paying this cost, so that would come out to $500k that each of them would be paying. Not a lot for larger space missions, but may be a lot for a cubesat mission. However, I doubt that they are all paying for this and is was just part of the usage agreement to host their mission on Artemis. Some of the cubesats are also NASA sponsored so they would just be paying themselves. It likely is somewhat profitable, but would require a huge investment. Some have suggested (can't find the source) that the DSN should be charging closer to $35,000/hr to cover costs of maintenance and building new dishes to expand the network, but NASA themselves can't be a for profit company. So if there was someone providing commercial ground services for deep space, lets say with commercial efficiency they get services to cost $20,000/hr. Great! But why would I do that if I can still go to DSN and pay $5000. But as the article indicates there were probably be a reckoning soon because I've already heard people describe scheduling and allocation of DSN time at JPL as a battle royale. https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/files/6_NASA_MOCS_2014_10_01_14.pdf https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/files/6_NASA_MOCS_2014_10_01_...

kaliqt 3y ago

Wellp, at this rate they should just ask SpaceX to do it for Mars and piggyback off it for everything else.