5 ms·

Microsoft to unbundle Teams software in Europe to abate EU antitrust concerns

92 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

jcarrano 3y ago
I still can't understand why MS is forced to break up product bundles but Google can make Android with a bunch of Google apps, some of which are very difficult to turn off.
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  I was under the impression that the EU is working on legistlation forcing all smartphone apps to be uninstallable, including manufacturer bundled ones. https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-draft-law-uninstall-preinstalled-apps-1163382/ https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-draft-law-uninstall-prei...
  - pipes 3y ago
    I haven't experienced something being uninstallable, I've always used Google pixel phones, do other manufacturers do this?
    - daveoc64 3y ago
      You can't uninstall most Google apps on a Pixel phone. Google Maps and Google Drive can't be uninstalled, for example. You can disable them - this stops the app running and will remove its icon, but it'll still use space. Some system apps can't be disabled - many of these are critical system processes, but there are also some that are non-essential.
      - pipes 3y ago
        Ah I didn't know! Thanks
  - matthewfelgate 3y ago
    Maybe the EU should concentrate on more important things. Like why EU GDP is stagnating compare to the USA.
- stop50 3y ago
  Google can argue that they don't have 100% of the market and they did changes with android 12+ that enables other stores to provide packages.
  - fidotron 3y ago
    Outside of the English speaking world (and Japan) iOS market share is generally much lower than particularly in the US. I would be tempted to say this is because a lot of the iOS pitch is “trust Apple because you don’t trust the regulatory environment” whereas in places like Germany the regulatory trust is higher so that pitch sounds weaker.
    - Proziam 3y ago
      Apple hardware is prohibitively expensive for most of the world. That's probably the primary driver for the market share gap. Even in the US, the brand is a status/class symbol to some extent. That said, I have heard the "trust" version of the pitch from some VC types floating around UNLV and I find their trust in Apple to be perplexing.
      - bdavbdav 3y ago
        It’s not an uncommon view - I trust them in terms of privacy and security much more than the alternatives.
- jsnell 3y ago
  The reason you can't understand it is that your entire premise is faulty. The EU already forced Google to unbundle parts of Android (while also issuing a 4 billion Euro fine) about 5 years ago. Specifically, for Android it's the device manufacturer who decides what gets pre-installed on the phone. The EU required Google to not make preinstalling Search and Chrome a precondition of getting to install the other apps.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Understand for a moment that Microsoft isn't even counted as Big Tech by most people: GAFA (Google Apple Facebook Amazon) or FAANG (Facebook Apple Amazon Netflix Google) as Big Tech is usually referred by. Microsoft isn't or can't line the necessary wallets to play with the big boys, simply speaking. This means they don't get to enjoy the perks of Big Tech, but also get to enjoy not being lambasted along with them.
  - supriyo-biswas 3y ago
    "GAFAM" is definitely a well-known term in the EU at least.
  - Delphiza 3y ago
    Microsoft is in the top 3 of big tech market cap (US). They officially spend about $10M per year lobbying in the US, which is in the same ballpark as other big tech. Maybe the HN crowd doesn't count Microsoft as big tech, but financial markets, enterprises, governments, and regulators most definitely do.
  - matthewfelgate 3y ago
    Community Notes: Microsoft is the 2nd biggest company in the world behind Apple.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    No Microsoft isn’t treated like BigTech by geeks who listened to a loud mouth guy on CNBC who originally coined the term “FANG” (notice the missing “A”) that included a Netflix who’s market share is nothing compared to Apple and Microsoft that were already two of the 5 most valuable companies even when the term was coined
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
roody15 3y ago
I will say Microsoft is overly agrees installing Teams. When removing I find three different listing under add/remove programs. The App Store version Microsoft Teams, the Microsoft Teams system installer, and Microsoft Teams. It then proceeds to try and set the default to auto-launch and request a Microsoft sign in at login. This is aggressive, annoying and in at least to me comes off as desperate or in the least adwarey.
- tyingq 3y ago
  They also have separate downloads for "Teams for home" and "Teams for work or school" that end up running as different applications.
  - dghughes 3y ago
    The funny part is Teams doesn't work half the time anyway.
    - Liftdex 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - tyingq 3y ago
      I use it on Windows, and it's not the best application I've used, but I can't think of many meetings where I was unable to attend...maybe a minute of kill teams + restart. But, I hear it's more flaky on macos.
      - DanielHB 3y ago
        Teams video/chat calls work really well in my opinion. The problem is everything else
      - dao- 3y ago
        > can't think of many meetings where I was unable to attend does this mean you can think of /some/ meetings you were unable to attend? I would assume that "doesn't work half the time" was slightly hyperbolic, and so it seems like your experience is roughly in line with the parent comment despite your response being worded like a rebuttal. > maybe a minute of kill teams + restart. lol, okay. so it's basically flawless.
dade_ 3y ago
Quick close the barn door, the animals have escaped!
orwin 3y ago
I used to think teams was OK (the audio is seriously great), but now I have a use for my RAM, and while idle, it consume twice as much RAM as a plain Firefox, and more than a wsl running vscode. This is abnormal.
- jug 3y ago
  Note that Teams was using Electron but a preview no longer bundles a browser and massively reduces RAM usage. Still only for Windows though.
- cmehdy 3y ago
  It also has an endless list of visual glitches, hardware issues even with "headphones recommended by Microsoft", input issues, pretty bad UX, poor integration with Microsoft's own services (SharePoint, outlook calendar..), a horrible "test call", etc. Doesn't seem to matter anyway, once a Windows shop is captive they know most clients are there for life..
  - bdavbdav 3y ago
    Audio device selection is horrible. Several of my (otherwise fully working) devices either don’t show up in the lists, or if they do, pass no audio.
  - pluijzer 3y ago
    The most annoying to me is that the elapsed time element doesn't have a fixed size. It constantly changes size and pushes all other elements from left to right. It is very distracting. I can thing of so many easy fixes for this yet it is there since at least 3 years. This comes across as very amateurish for a product of a multi billion company.
solarkraft 3y ago
Man, I don't get it. I have a lot of problems with the (imo anti-competitive) behavior of big tech companies, but the bundling of Teams is among the least of my concerns. What about App Stores and API availability? What about constantly preferring and promoting first-party offers (required accounts, MS Edge, Bing, Apple iCloud)? All the platform leverage they're more or less starting to abuse to lock users into "services" only they can provide. THOSE are problems that are limiting competition and getting worse and worse. They're really, entirely; unapologetically holding users hostage and more or less forcibly extracting rent from them (hey, your iCloud is full!). Yet the EU steps in in these what feel like token ways. A bit like the recent Apple move of ("We support right to repair ... at authorized service providers, for repairs we approve"). I know of the Digital Markets Act, but haven't yet seen a hint that it will limit rent-seeking by platform providers (worse yet: the idea has been floated that Apple may still be able to do it on third-party app stores, completely circumventing the point of the law, just like "legitimate interest" has for GDPR!). I love my little EU and its general (verbal) attitude towards consumer and market protection. But there's a lot more talk than there is walk. I hope this will change at some point - the direction is still the right one, after all.
- Sakos 3y ago
  > but the bundling of Teams is among the least of my concerns. I don't understand this point of view. We should be addressing all forms of anti-competitive behavior. This included. The fact that this is being addressed at all even though it's a "minor" (which is laughable, considering it's Microsoft, one of the biggest tech companies in the world) issue is an incredibly positive event. I look forward to further anti-competitive behavior being looked at, whether Microsoft or Google or whoever else.
  - Incipient 3y ago
    Going after things that are technically anti-competitive, but realistically aren't particularly major, is a problem. Everyone thinks "yep we're doing our job, making a difference!" and stops there. Like a government going after tax evasion "we stopped Frank from claiming an air freshener in his car, so we're saving the economy!" while Facebook farms billions in profits offshore. Fixing something small has the risk of creating a facades of activity/effectiveness when in reality its still 90% broken.
corentin88 3y ago
Duplicate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37335404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37335404

92 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

I still can't understand why MS is forced to break up product bundles but Google can make Android with a bunch of Google apps, some of which are very difficult to turn off.

hypertele-Xii 3y ago
I was under the impression that the EU is working on legistlation forcing all smartphone apps to be uninstallable, including manufacturer bundled ones. https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-draft-law-uninstall-preinstalled-apps-1163382/ https://www.androidauthority.com/eu-draft-law-uninstall-prei...
- pipes 3y ago
  I haven't experienced something being uninstallable, I've always used Google pixel phones, do other manufacturers do this?
  - daveoc64 3y ago
    You can't uninstall most Google apps on a Pixel phone. Google Maps and Google Drive can't be uninstalled, for example. You can disable them - this stops the app running and will remove its icon, but it'll still use space. Some system apps can't be disabled - many of these are critical system processes, but there are also some that are non-essential.
    - pipes 3y ago
      Ah I didn't know! Thanks
- matthewfelgate 3y ago
  Maybe the EU should concentrate on more important things. Like why EU GDP is stagnating compare to the USA.
stop50 3y ago
Google can argue that they don't have 100% of the market and they did changes with android 12+ that enables other stores to provide packages.
- fidotron 3y ago
  Outside of the English speaking world (and Japan) iOS market share is generally much lower than particularly in the US. I would be tempted to say this is because a lot of the iOS pitch is “trust Apple because you don’t trust the regulatory environment” whereas in places like Germany the regulatory trust is higher so that pitch sounds weaker.
  - Proziam 3y ago
    Apple hardware is prohibitively expensive for most of the world. That's probably the primary driver for the market share gap. Even in the US, the brand is a status/class symbol to some extent. That said, I have heard the "trust" version of the pitch from some VC types floating around UNLV and I find their trust in Apple to be perplexing.
    - bdavbdav 3y ago
      It’s not an uncommon view - I trust them in terms of privacy and security much more than the alternatives.
jsnell 3y ago
The reason you can't understand it is that your entire premise is faulty. The EU already forced Google to unbundle parts of Android (while also issuing a 4 billion Euro fine) about 5 years ago. Specifically, for Android it's the device manufacturer who decides what gets pre-installed on the phone. The EU required Google to not make preinstalling Search and Chrome a precondition of getting to install the other apps.
Dalewyn 3y ago
Understand for a moment that Microsoft isn't even counted as Big Tech by most people: GAFA (Google Apple Facebook Amazon) or FAANG (Facebook Apple Amazon Netflix Google) as Big Tech is usually referred by. Microsoft isn't or can't line the necessary wallets to play with the big boys, simply speaking. This means they don't get to enjoy the perks of Big Tech, but also get to enjoy not being lambasted along with them.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  "GAFAM" is definitely a well-known term in the EU at least.
- Delphiza 3y ago
  Microsoft is in the top 3 of big tech market cap (US). They officially spend about $10M per year lobbying in the US, which is in the same ballpark as other big tech. Maybe the HN crowd doesn't count Microsoft as big tech, but financial markets, enterprises, governments, and regulators most definitely do.
- matthewfelgate 3y ago
  Community Notes: Microsoft is the 2nd biggest company in the world behind Apple.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  No Microsoft isn’t treated like BigTech by geeks who listened to a loud mouth guy on CNBC who originally coined the term “FANG” (notice the missing “A”) that included a Netflix who’s market share is nothing compared to Apple and Microsoft that were already two of the 5 most valuable companies even when the term was coined

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

roody15 3y ago

I will say Microsoft is overly agrees installing Teams. When removing I find three different listing under add/remove programs. The App Store version Microsoft Teams, the Microsoft Teams system installer, and Microsoft Teams. It then proceeds to try and set the default to auto-launch and request a Microsoft sign in at login. This is aggressive, annoying and in at least to me comes off as desperate or in the least adwarey.

tyingq 3y ago
They also have separate downloads for "Teams for home" and "Teams for work or school" that end up running as different applications.
- dghughes 3y ago
  The funny part is Teams doesn't work half the time anyway.
  - Liftdex 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - tyingq 3y ago
    I use it on Windows, and it's not the best application I've used, but I can't think of many meetings where I was unable to attend...maybe a minute of kill teams + restart. But, I hear it's more flaky on macos.
    - DanielHB 3y ago
      Teams video/chat calls work really well in my opinion. The problem is everything else
    - dao- 3y ago
      > can't think of many meetings where I was unable to attend does this mean you can think of /some/ meetings you were unable to attend? I would assume that "doesn't work half the time" was slightly hyperbolic, and so it seems like your experience is roughly in line with the parent comment despite your response being worded like a rebuttal. > maybe a minute of kill teams + restart. lol, okay. so it's basically flawless.

dade_ 3y ago

Quick close the barn door, the animals have escaped!

orwin 3y ago

I used to think teams was OK (the audio is seriously great), but now I have a use for my RAM, and while idle, it consume twice as much RAM as a plain Firefox, and more than a wsl running vscode. This is abnormal.

jug 3y ago
Note that Teams was using Electron but a preview no longer bundles a browser and massively reduces RAM usage. Still only for Windows though.
cmehdy 3y ago
It also has an endless list of visual glitches, hardware issues even with "headphones recommended by Microsoft", input issues, pretty bad UX, poor integration with Microsoft's own services (SharePoint, outlook calendar..), a horrible "test call", etc. Doesn't seem to matter anyway, once a Windows shop is captive they know most clients are there for life..
- bdavbdav 3y ago
  Audio device selection is horrible. Several of my (otherwise fully working) devices either don’t show up in the lists, or if they do, pass no audio.
- pluijzer 3y ago
  The most annoying to me is that the elapsed time element doesn't have a fixed size. It constantly changes size and pushes all other elements from left to right. It is very distracting. I can thing of so many easy fixes for this yet it is there since at least 3 years. This comes across as very amateurish for a product of a multi billion company.

solarkraft 3y ago

Man, I don't get it. I have a lot of problems with the (imo anti-competitive) behavior of big tech companies, but the bundling of Teams is among the least of my concerns. What about App Stores and API availability? What about constantly preferring and promoting first-party offers (required accounts, MS Edge, Bing, Apple iCloud)? All the platform leverage they're more or less starting to abuse to lock users into "services" only they can provide. THOSE are problems that are limiting competition and getting worse and worse. They're really, entirely; unapologetically holding users hostage and more or less forcibly extracting rent from them (hey, your iCloud is full!). Yet the EU steps in in these what feel like token ways. A bit like the recent Apple move of ("We support right to repair ... at authorized service providers, for repairs we approve"). I know of the Digital Markets Act, but haven't yet seen a hint that it will limit rent-seeking by platform providers (worse yet: the idea has been floated that Apple may still be able to do it on third-party app stores, completely circumventing the point of the law, just like "legitimate interest" has for GDPR!). I love my little EU and its general (verbal) attitude towards consumer and market protection. But there's a lot more talk than there is walk. I hope this will change at some point - the direction is still the right one, after all.

Sakos 3y ago
> but the bundling of Teams is among the least of my concerns. I don't understand this point of view. We should be addressing all forms of anti-competitive behavior. This included. The fact that this is being addressed at all even though it's a "minor" (which is laughable, considering it's Microsoft, one of the biggest tech companies in the world) issue is an incredibly positive event. I look forward to further anti-competitive behavior being looked at, whether Microsoft or Google or whoever else.
- Incipient 3y ago
  Going after things that are technically anti-competitive, but realistically aren't particularly major, is a problem. Everyone thinks "yep we're doing our job, making a difference!" and stops there. Like a government going after tax evasion "we stopped Frank from claiming an air freshener in his car, so we're saving the economy!" while Facebook farms billions in profits offshore. Fixing something small has the risk of creating a facades of activity/effectiveness when in reality its still 90% broken.

corentin88 3y ago

Duplicate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37335404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37335404