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EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still ne

EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away. Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.

_ea1k 3y ago
Orange Charging offers a low cost "dumb" solution that still manages to bill for the power. It'd be a great fit for a lot of apartment complexes, IMO.
- vel0city 3y ago
  What is the solution?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Really simple outlets with builtin power monitors, cellular for management and billing, bluetooth for mesh connectivity between multiple units, and bluetooth for customer connectivity for activation. Cost ~$400 for a 240V unit. https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620 https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
    - vel0city 3y ago
      That doesn't sound very dumb, that sounds quite complicated. Bluetooth for customer connectivity? So I'll still need an app...
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        Well, it can't be completely dumb and still support billing. There are several competing factors here: - They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself - They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here - Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best. - They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
        vel0city 3y ago
        If it can't truly be a dumb device, maybe you shouldn't be telling people its a "dumb" device. Hey guys, this thing is "green". Well, we couldn't actually paint it green, so it's blue, but that's as close as we could get it!
olyjohn 3y ago
Jesus. They figured this out with gas pumps like 50 years ago. There's no need for an app. Period, the end. You pre-auth with a card, and then it stops giving you fuel when you hit the limit, or it stops after a certain amount. It then charges you based on how much you used when you stop charging. If you keep charging, it costs you more.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  The author is advocating for outlets that you have to bring your own charger for. If you do this and have a way to meter it, you've literally designed what existing ChargePoint or other J1772 chargers do today, just without the convenience of having the charging cord built into the appliance. There's nothing stopping people from having a pay-at-the-pump style chargers. I'd advocate for it. I'm just saying that we basically already have this, except it requires apps at the current time for some of them. That has nothing to do with smart vs not.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Ya, the problem is solved if we just made electricity into a liquid rather than a current. Seriously though, the problem is mostly that these are all new with a very different model from being a gas pump (due to longer charge times). They also throw the chargers into random retail locations, they are completely unmanned, and everyone except Tesla pretends maintenance need doesn’t exist.
lafar6503 3y ago
Electricity meters have been known for decades, even with payment terminals.after all, they were invented to bill customers for electricity used. And I can see authors point - if you look at Tesla chargers, it's not only the stalls but whole underground infrastructure with cooling, air conditioners and who knows what else. If cars were designed to use AC instead it would be enough to have an AC outlet (3 phase probably) and a meter, and whole charging station could be built by an electrician, with standard components. Yep you won't get a megawatt power this way, but 30-50kW is realistic
- vel0city 3y ago
  Yeah but even adding a credit card terminal massively increases the complexity compared to the plain plug the author is talking about here. If you're going to have to include relays and ground fault equipment and payment systems you're 95% of the way to a "complicated" EVSE.
- stetrain 3y ago
  So the power meter dutifully ticks up the charge you have used while plugged in. Then what? How do you pay it? Do you have to go track down some person who may or may not be on duty to read the meter, hope they read it before you started, and pay them in quarters? Cars are designed to use AC. That's how all current Level 2 chargers work. They are basically dumb outlets plus a contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. But beyond a certain level (around 20kW) the size and cost of putting a larger AC to DC converter in the car is prohibitive. At one point Tesla Superchargers were literally racks of the same AC to DC converters found in the car, but fed with 3-phase power, bussed together, and cooled all external to the car. There's no other way to implement a reliable 20-minute roadtrip charge.
  - lafar6503 3y ago
    Oh come on, pay for use is a solved problem. Look at gas pumps. But if it's not feasible to have a big DC converter in every car then no luck
    - 3y ago
beefield 3y ago
> EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
- Kirby64 3y ago
  I'm not suggesting you couldn't do this directly via credit card payment via terminal. I think they should allow that. In fact, some systems DO allow this. My point is that if you make it a "dumb outlet" like the author suggest, it's literally identical to what we have today except you now have to bring your own charging cord (which, is inconvenient. Like bringing a gas pump handle and line with you to the gas station).
- IshKebab 3y ago
  You can in the EU (or you will be able to anyway). Thanks to EU red tape you'll be able to use contactless to pay for charging. https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactless-payments-for-ev-charging-and-hydrogen-refuelling-stations/ https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactle... Presumably the Brexit dividend will allow UK EV owners to continue to have to deal with a gazillion shitty apps. I wish they'd do the same for car parks.
- vel0city 3y ago
  You can, a lot of chargers these days do have credit card terminals and can start charging with just a swipe/tap/chip read of a regular card.
- supergeek 3y ago
  The main limit is minimum transaction fees. A gas station is usually at least a $20 transaction. Since most level 2 charges are about $1 of electricity per hour, you're paying massive credit card fees for short charges. The apps all support some sort of balance to combine charges into large single transactions.
bdcravens 3y ago
It need not be any more complicated than a gas pump. Just swipe/tap and use.

_ea1k 3y ago

Orange Charging offers a low cost "dumb" solution that still manages to bill for the power. It'd be a great fit for a lot of apartment complexes, IMO.

vel0city 3y ago
What is the solution?
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Really simple outlets with builtin power monitors, cellular for management and billing, bluetooth for mesh connectivity between multiple units, and bluetooth for customer connectivity for activation. Cost ~$400 for a 240V unit. https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620 https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
  - vel0city 3y ago
    That doesn't sound very dumb, that sounds quite complicated. Bluetooth for customer connectivity? So I'll still need an app...
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Well, it can't be completely dumb and still support billing. There are several competing factors here: - They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself - They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here - Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best. - They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        If it can't truly be a dumb device, maybe you shouldn't be telling people its a "dumb" device. Hey guys, this thing is "green". Well, we couldn't actually paint it green, so it's blue, but that's as close as we could get it!

olyjohn 3y ago

Jesus. They figured this out with gas pumps like 50 years ago. There's no need for an app. Period, the end. You pre-auth with a card, and then it stops giving you fuel when you hit the limit, or it stops after a certain amount. It then charges you based on how much you used when you stop charging. If you keep charging, it costs you more.

Kirby64 3y ago
The author is advocating for outlets that you have to bring your own charger for. If you do this and have a way to meter it, you've literally designed what existing ChargePoint or other J1772 chargers do today, just without the convenience of having the charging cord built into the appliance. There's nothing stopping people from having a pay-at-the-pump style chargers. I'd advocate for it. I'm just saying that we basically already have this, except it requires apps at the current time for some of them. That has nothing to do with smart vs not.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Ya, the problem is solved if we just made electricity into a liquid rather than a current. Seriously though, the problem is mostly that these are all new with a very different model from being a gas pump (due to longer charge times). They also throw the chargers into random retail locations, they are completely unmanned, and everyone except Tesla pretends maintenance need doesn’t exist.

lafar6503 3y ago

Electricity meters have been known for decades, even with payment terminals.after all, they were invented to bill customers for electricity used. And I can see authors point - if you look at Tesla chargers, it's not only the stalls but whole underground infrastructure with cooling, air conditioners and who knows what else. If cars were designed to use AC instead it would be enough to have an AC outlet (3 phase probably) and a meter, and whole charging station could be built by an electrician, with standard components. Yep you won't get a megawatt power this way, but 30-50kW is realistic

vel0city 3y ago
Yeah but even adding a credit card terminal massively increases the complexity compared to the plain plug the author is talking about here. If you're going to have to include relays and ground fault equipment and payment systems you're 95% of the way to a "complicated" EVSE.
stetrain 3y ago
So the power meter dutifully ticks up the charge you have used while plugged in. Then what? How do you pay it? Do you have to go track down some person who may or may not be on duty to read the meter, hope they read it before you started, and pay them in quarters? Cars are designed to use AC. That's how all current Level 2 chargers work. They are basically dumb outlets plus a contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. But beyond a certain level (around 20kW) the size and cost of putting a larger AC to DC converter in the car is prohibitive. At one point Tesla Superchargers were literally racks of the same AC to DC converters found in the car, but fed with 3-phase power, bussed together, and cooled all external to the car. There's no other way to implement a reliable 20-minute roadtrip charge.
- lafar6503 3y ago
  Oh come on, pay for use is a solved problem. Look at gas pumps. But if it's not feasible to have a big DC converter in every car then no luck
  - 3y ago

beefield 3y ago

> EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)

Kirby64 3y ago
I'm not suggesting you couldn't do this directly via credit card payment via terminal. I think they should allow that. In fact, some systems DO allow this. My point is that if you make it a "dumb outlet" like the author suggest, it's literally identical to what we have today except you now have to bring your own charging cord (which, is inconvenient. Like bringing a gas pump handle and line with you to the gas station).
IshKebab 3y ago
You can in the EU (or you will be able to anyway). Thanks to EU red tape you'll be able to use contactless to pay for charging. https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactless-payments-for-ev-charging-and-hydrogen-refuelling-stations/ https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactle... Presumably the Brexit dividend will allow UK EV owners to continue to have to deal with a gazillion shitty apps. I wish they'd do the same for car parks.
vel0city 3y ago
You can, a lot of chargers these days do have credit card terminals and can start charging with just a swipe/tap/chip read of a regular card.
supergeek 3y ago
The main limit is minimum transaction fees. A gas station is usually at least a $20 transaction. Since most level 2 charges are about $1 of electricity per hour, you're paying massive credit card fees for short charges. The apps all support some sort of balance to combine charges into large single transactions.

bdcravens 3y ago

It need not be any more complicated than a gas pump. Just swipe/tap and use.