4 ms·

Sure, but it's not like deciding to make china unfriendly wasn't provoked by china. The US was making legitimate attempt at "bringing china into the fold". Si

Sure, but it's not like deciding to make china unfriendly wasn't provoked by china. The US was making legitimate attempt at "bringing china into the fold". Since xi jinping came into power, lots of sketchy stuff has happened on their end that made this strategy less tenable. For example: being invited to rimpac and then sending uninvited ships (2014)

woooooo 3y ago
It's possible to be perfectly cordial without being a US client state. Why should they have to be "in the fold"?
- nradov 3y ago
  It is impossible to have cordial relations with China while they are threatening to invade our ally Taiwan, and building artificial islands as military outposts in the South China Sea. The unfortunate reality is that China is now our enemy. That situation will persist and probably worsen at least until Xi is replaced.
  - 8note 3y ago
    If china declared Puerto Rico to be it's ally and started building military bases there without US permission, the US would do more than threaten to invade Puerto Rico, it'd do it immediately
    - whats_a_quasar 3y ago
      Dude, this is blatant whataboutism. Puerto Rico is in no way equivalent to Taiwan, and I suspect you know that. Taiwan is a sovereign, independent, democratic nation. The Chinese Communist Party has never had political control over Taiwan. It just claims the right to overrule the right to self-determination of 23 million people because it feels like it. The Commonwealth of Puerto Rico is an unincorporated U.S. territory, but it could leave at any time. The commonwealth has held four referendums, none of which have found a strong majority for either statehood or independence, so the island kinda keeps muddling along with the status quo. Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and though they don't have representation in the U.S. federal government, they also don't pay federal taxes and have an elected local government. The ethics of the situation are not complicated. The CCP can't just decide to subjugate an independent, democratic people.
      - bllguo 3y ago
        of course, forget the history behind the formation of Taiwan. forget that the US props it up to maintain a military enclave where it has no right to be, in order to threaten China. it's just an innocent independent democratic people that China seeks to assimilate for no legitimate reason! Even _without_ the historical context it is completely justifiable from a national security perspective to push out the military presence of the most aggressive nation in the past century. Lastly - the gall for an American to invoke "self-determination" after its track record.. simply incredible. We are what, one week removed from the leaks re: Imran Khan?
        sdfghswe 3y ago
        > forget the history behind the formation of Taiwan > where it has no right to be Would you like to tell us your version of history according to which Taiwan has no right to be? Because in the one I'm familiar with, one of the factions fighting the civil war won almost everywhere but failed to invade that island. The fact that they've resisted and survived certainly gives them the right to be, by definition.
      - nonethewiser 3y ago
        The US also doesn’t have bases in Puerto Rico so I have no idea what that analogy is supposed to do.
        nradov 3y ago
        The US Army has Fort Buchanan in Puerto Rico. https://home.army.mil/buchanan/ https://home.army.mil/buchanan/
      - throwawaymaths 3y ago
        > Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and though they don't have representation in the U.S. federal government, Delegates vote in committee. It ain't nothing. "Committees is where the real action happens"
      - woooooo 3y ago
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  By the the fold I meant a country that generally plays by internationally accepted customs and cordiality, not a "US client state". If a country invites you to their joint military exercise, you don't spy on them during the exercise. This is basic common sense.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    Add up the populations of the countries that were party to the formation of your "internationally accepted customs". Then add up the population who weren't consulted.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    I'm sorry, are you saying that the US doesn't spy on military exercises of our allies?
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      Nothing as cringingly stupid as this: https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-ship-rimpac https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-s... Happy to be corrected, show me.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    >internationally accepted customs Which are more often than not US dictated. >If a country invites you to their joint military exercise, you don't spy on them during the exercise This is nonsense. No-one does this more than the US.
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      Citation please. Heres mine: https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-ship-rimpac https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-s... Very cringey.

woooooo 3y ago

It's possible to be perfectly cordial without being a US client state. Why should they have to be "in the fold"?

nradov 3y ago
It is impossible to have cordial relations with China while they are threatening to invade our ally Taiwan, and building artificial islands as military outposts in the South China Sea. The unfortunate reality is that China is now our enemy. That situation will persist and probably worsen at least until Xi is replaced.
- 8note 3y ago
  If china declared Puerto Rico to be it's ally and started building military bases there without US permission, the US would do more than threaten to invade Puerto Rico, it'd do it immediately
  - whats_a_quasar 3y ago
    Dude, this is blatant whataboutism. Puerto Rico is in no way equivalent to Taiwan, and I suspect you know that. Taiwan is a sovereign, independent, democratic nation. The Chinese Communist Party has never had political control over Taiwan. It just claims the right to overrule the right to self-determination of 23 million people because it feels like it. The Commonwealth of Puerto Rico is an unincorporated U.S. territory, but it could leave at any time. The commonwealth has held four referendums, none of which have found a strong majority for either statehood or independence, so the island kinda keeps muddling along with the status quo. Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and though they don't have representation in the U.S. federal government, they also don't pay federal taxes and have an elected local government. The ethics of the situation are not complicated. The CCP can't just decide to subjugate an independent, democratic people.
    - bllguo 3y ago
      of course, forget the history behind the formation of Taiwan. forget that the US props it up to maintain a military enclave where it has no right to be, in order to threaten China. it's just an innocent independent democratic people that China seeks to assimilate for no legitimate reason! Even _without_ the historical context it is completely justifiable from a national security perspective to push out the military presence of the most aggressive nation in the past century. Lastly - the gall for an American to invoke "self-determination" after its track record.. simply incredible. We are what, one week removed from the leaks re: Imran Khan?
      - sdfghswe 3y ago
        > forget the history behind the formation of Taiwan > where it has no right to be Would you like to tell us your version of history according to which Taiwan has no right to be? Because in the one I'm familiar with, one of the factions fighting the civil war won almost everywhere but failed to invade that island. The fact that they've resisted and survived certainly gives them the right to be, by definition.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      The US also doesn’t have bases in Puerto Rico so I have no idea what that analogy is supposed to do.
      - nradov 3y ago
        The US Army has Fort Buchanan in Puerto Rico. https://home.army.mil/buchanan/ https://home.army.mil/buchanan/
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      > Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and though they don't have representation in the U.S. federal government, Delegates vote in committee. It ain't nothing. "Committees is where the real action happens"
    - woooooo 3y ago
throwawaymaths 3y ago
By the the fold I meant a country that generally plays by internationally accepted customs and cordiality, not a "US client state". If a country invites you to their joint military exercise, you don't spy on them during the exercise. This is basic common sense.
- woooooo 3y ago
  Add up the populations of the countries that were party to the formation of your "internationally accepted customs". Then add up the population who weren't consulted.
- woooooo 3y ago
  I'm sorry, are you saying that the US doesn't spy on military exercises of our allies?
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Nothing as cringingly stupid as this: https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-ship-rimpac https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-s... Happy to be corrected, show me.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  >internationally accepted customs Which are more often than not US dictated. >If a country invites you to their joint military exercise, you don't spy on them during the exercise This is nonsense. No-one does this more than the US.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Citation please. Heres mine: https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-ship-rimpac https://news.usni.org/2014/07/18/china-sends-uninvited-spy-s... Very cringey.