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I'm a big fan of WSL, which has kept me on Windows for years more than I otherwise would have. But I can't stand the scammy adware infused OS Windows has becom

by mythz 3y ago

I'm a big fan of WSL, which has kept me on Windows for years more than I otherwise would have. But I can't stand the scammy adware infused OS Windows has become and will be moving to Apple Silicon full-time when the next gen M3 Desktop hardware is out. As a recent M2 Macbook Air owner I'm surprised how much software supports ARM/Apple Silicon natively, where everything I use daily as a .NET developer worked OOB [1]. It's also great for running multiple OS's, e.g. you can install a headless Ubuntu with `brew install lima` or install and run latest ARM Windows 11, Ubuntu and Fedora OS's with UTM [2] which saved me a Parallels License I thought I needed to run Windows on macOS. [1] https://servicestack.net/posts/postgres-mysql-sqlserver-on-apple-silicon https://servicestack.net/posts/postgres-mysql-sqlserver-on-a... [2] https://mac.getutm.app https://mac.getutm.app

knighthack 3y ago
Younger kids are getting used to Linux via Steam and the Steam Deck, and support for games on Linux are increasing constantly. I'd wager that the upcoming generation will be less kept to Windows, which will be a good thing.
gumballindie 3y ago
Why not Linux (depending on your line of work). Wider hardware choice, easier to upgrade, and no corporate oversight. Doesn't cover all use cases but it's a good option these days.
- trustingtrust 3y ago
  With computers like framework and system76, the community for hardware support is solid too now. Seriously considering a switch from M1. I feel like macOS is half baked development environment. I only stay because I never bought a Linux supported computer and I got the M1 air very cheap. But I am considering getting a framework as I just damaged a usb-c port and I am not entering apple’s repairability problem.
  - backendanon 3y ago
    I've had excellent support from Linux across a variety of machines for 2 decades. Dell, Lenovo and HP.
  - _fat_santa 3y ago
    While Framework and Sys76 are the two major players in the Linux laptop space, if you are looking to save money I would recommend picking up a Dell/Lenovo/HP "business" laptop, those run Linux really well and a good chunk are even certified to run Ubuntu. In my experience though I stopped buying laptops for personal use and started buying desktops. Easier to upgrade, usually cheaper and better support for Linux just by virtue of not having things like a Wifi or BT card.
    - pxc 3y ago
      Why is Framework considered a player in that space? What does that company actively do to improve Linux support? Do they offer free BIOSes like coreboot? Are any of their peripheral firmwares open-source? What kind of Linux compatibility do they guarantee for their hardware prior to launch? Afaik they're exactly the same as Lenovo: a Windows PC manufacturer that happens to be popular with Linux users, and which doesn't go out of their way to break things for Linux users. But they've shipped laptops that had broken power management on Linux on launch day, for example. They're not a Linux hardware vendor.
      - hot_gril 3y ago
        Lenovo Thinkpads have explicit Linux support, but they still tend to have issues with Bluetooth audio at the very least.
        pxc 3y ago
        That's a welcome development. In the past, every time I've been in the market for a laptop, they had few or no explicitly supported models. (The Bluetooth thing sucks though.)
  - 3y ago
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  Not the person you responded to, but I'm in the same boat; I went from grudgingly using it due to being the 'best' in practice, to seeing it as something I need to move away from. I've used the 'big three' (windows/macos/linux) desktop OSs at work and home in recent years. Here's my ranking: 1) Linux 2) MacOS 3) Windows Where I have control to use what I want, linux is my choice. At work though, I need to jump through endpoint management and security theater nonsense, so I am stuck choosing between MacOS and Windows.
- mythz 3y ago
  I do all my deployment to Linux Servers, but I want my main Desktop to just work and plan on sticking to the primary OS the hardware was built for. Don't need broad hardware support, it just needs to support M3 hardware when it comes out. I'm also running macOS software like Pixelmator Pro and Affinity software suite. I'm already running multiple Docker Linux containers, headless Ubuntu on lima and GUI Ubuntu and Fedora VMs in UTM, so don't feel like I'm missing out on the Desktop Linux experience. I could definitely do most of my development on Linux given .NET SDK and JetBrains products supports it, but I'll be waiting a few years at least for Asahi Linux to get feature parity before running it natively.
- jwells89 3y ago
  The frustrating thing about shopping for x86 laptops (as you probably will be if you’re wanting to run Linux) is how few models come even a little close to comparing to MacBooks in terms of battery life even with tools like tlp running and CPU throttled down as far as it’ll go, and that’s to say nothing about heat and fan noise. I’ve been looking around and the only two 12-14” options I can find that match that description are the HP Dragonfly G4 and ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD), and those still fall several hours short of the M2 Air, and the M3 Air will likely widen that gap with its SoC being on a smaller process node.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    Battery is indeed best on macbooks. > ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD) I went for the asus proart studio book. high screen resolution, high refresh rate, the oled display is gorgeous (although the touch screen overlay is slightly visible, not an issue once used to it) and it feels more robust than a macbook. also trivially upgrade-able short of cpu and gpu. had to patch my acpi tables for sound support, and no asus dial compat yet. every now and then i get my hands dirty and i might be able to hack something to get it working. thus got a new hobby as well :-)
- mort96 3y ago
  The problem with PC hardware is that yes, there's more choice, but it's all mostly bad. Nobody other than Apple manages to put a decent and reliable trackpad on their machines for example, and all PC laptops I've used have at times gotten really loud. If you're okay with non-Windows OSes, hardware choice is the main reason to pick Apple machines. Also, Linux is coming along rather well on Apple Silicon machines.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    FWIW, I find current gen (starting with 8th) HP EliteBooks decent enough. They work perfectly in Linux (actually better than Windows, since for a while some bits weren't recognized...). They're quiet unless I'm compiling something (if I don't use Windows, which for some reasons gets the fan spinning even when it's supposed to be asleep). The trackpad is good, even though it's worse than my 2013 MBP's. The main issue I have with them is the absurdly bad displays. Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad.
    - jader201 3y ago
      > Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad. To me, that’s far from “decent enough”, not even taking into account the other (more minor) differences you name.
      - vladvasiliu 3y ago
        The reason I mention it is because some people don't really care about display quality. I know basically none of my colleagues do. They'll see a MBP and go "yeah, it looks better. so?". But they do care if half the things don't work (think borked wifi or no webcam). So, for people like this, I find it's a good data point. And even though I do care about display quality, given my usage pattern, this isn't much of an issue in practice, since 99% of this PC's usage is tethered to a high-quality external screen. If I had a gorgeous MBP, I'd still be looking at the same monitor. The battery doesn't last as long as an M mac, either. But then again, I rarely use it away from a desk. I could technically use one of those mini pcs that I'd cart around, but for the 1% of the time when I do use while out and about, it's a good compromise.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Linux is ok nowadays, but why? The Mac hardware is already better, and Apple isn't too annoying. You'll have more random nonsense to deal with on Linux, some of it not their fault.
  - consoomer 3y ago
    Mac is more annoying than it seems. I went full Linux around three years ago. The annoyance for me peaked with Mac phoning home file data every time I tried to open a file and apps breaking upon major updates. My main issue was with the hardware though. I would spend $3,400-$4500 on a nice machine only to have the keyboard break and be told they would replace the entire motherboard, etc. Then to have a screen break due to a poor cable connection and be told I would have to replace everything again. I said fuck it and bought a decent machine with open hardware and a good-enough screen. It's no mac display, but damn... I haven't had to fight with hardware or software in about three years. The kicker? My machine only cost me $1,100 and battery isn't half bad. I get 9 hours with it.. which I never believed was possible with Linux before.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Apple isn't too annoying I find Apple to be too annoying for my tastes. Less annoying than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean much.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      It's that vs the annoyance of using Linux. Which is worse? I've been there, diagnosing bluetooth and wifi issues, dealing with free vs non-free drivers, finding out Netflix won't run in 1080p/4K, going down the Flash rabbit hole back then, dealing with sleep issues, having sound not work, jumping ship to whatever DE is best supported, messing with WINE for the plethora of non-Linux-supported apps, it never ends. A "how to do X in Linux" article exists for so many things that you'd never search for on Mac (or even Windows), but Linux users tend to make it sound like everything works out of the box.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >Wider hardware choice You're joking right? Sure, something built in 2002 will probably still work well in Linux, but that's often the case for Windows, and on a Windows system, the hardware AND the proprietary software it came with will probably still work. Meanwhile, in Linux land, if you don't buy very very very specific hardware you can never hope to have functional sleep.
  - tremon 3y ago
    You're joking right? Not as much as you. Windows 11 won't (officially) install on any system lacking a TPM v2.0. The only reason that Windows 11 can be installed without hassle on modern hardware is because every motherboard manufacturer started scrambling to outfit their systems with such a TPM by default. Also, for Windows Vista they completely rewrote their driver model for many devices, which means that no printer/scanner/sound card/graphics card from the year you mention has functioning drivers for any current Windows version. So no, something built in 2002 will most definitely not run current Windows. Even most systems built in 2018 will not run Windows 11.
giancarlostoro 3y ago
I wanted to add a new user account on my new Windows 11 system. It came with Windows Home right. So when I went to add one, it told me that feature is disabled because I have poor man's Windows, go to this other program. So I go to program B. Guess what program B told me? It told me I was using poor man's Windows to go back to program A to add a new user. I had to do it via command line. After I was about to remove my Hotmail user (I just wanted offline only users) I said screw this, and installed POP_OS! instead, installed Steam, and move on with life. I even played the good 'ole Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux thanks to Proton. I think at this point I have nothing keeping me using Windows other than the rare game that Proton doesn't support, but my old gaming rig still works and plays most games, so I can easily swap. It pisses me off though, because my Windows 10 box for some reason, at some point, any new program I install does not show up in the start menu whatsoever. I've not even been able to find anything on Google that remotely answers why its broken. At least with Steam I dont have to worry about it, but if I hit Windows Key and type anything, I dont see any programs I installed like three years ago. Freaking weird. Anyway, I think moving forward I'll be buying Mac or Linux Systems. I'll let employers buy me Windows boxes. Edit: Typo'd Proton as Photon ;)
- kibwen 3y ago
  I'm a big fan of PopOS after using it for over a year now. I hadn't used desktop Linux for over a decade and expected the usual hassle and obscure fiddling, but in all honesty I've found it easier to use than not just Windows (obviously, it's a shitshow these days) but even Mac too (which wouldn't let me configure my suspend settings without running obscure shell commands copied off the internet, and required me to set up homebrew to get any decent software store, and broke git on every single system update, and...)
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    I might switch to Fedora since I want something kind of "rolling" but not quite bleeding edge. But I've used Debian/Ubuntu based OS' for a while, and POP is definitely one of my favorites currently. I will nag about one thing though, their package manager UI has some severe bug where it halts the whole UI (probably a threading issue).
capableweb 3y ago
I want so badly be a big fan of WSL, but I just can't, I'm hitting too many issues for it to be productive and I had to jump back into a proper Linux environment... > But they make it really hard to rely on. From random shutdowns, GPU unreliability to data corruption and performance differences with just using Linux directly, I had to move away from it and back to Linux because I felt like I slowly losing my mind troubleshooting these issues. > Latest issue was that the virtual disk file continued to grow beyond 500GB large while Linux still reported that it was just 20% full from the inside. So, reading about things, I gave optimize-vhd a try and boom, full disk file was corrupted. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37308850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37308850 I wish it was working properly, because I have to use Windows for other things anyways and I don't really care about ads because I don't feel like they're getting in the way when I use the OS. But that WSL basically doesn't work properly is such a showstopper.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  Yeah I don't understand the love for WSL. Within the first couple weeks of using it, I've run into * Time doesn't stay in sync after sleeping, which breaks package updating. * It doesn't get the DNS servers it should from DHCP, so you have to go manually edit /etc/resolv.conf * The filesystem is super slow, and git commands take multiple seconds. All stuff that can be worked around, but I don't have to deal with this crap when just running Linux, and all Windows gets me is a clunky UI and ads. It's mystifying to me that everyone is somehow capable of managing fleets of Linux servers just fine, but for some reason managing developer Linux workstations is impossible, so we end up with these Rube Goldberg machines.
  - NikkiA 3y ago
    The problem I see most often is that WSL causes processor stalls in my other VMs, I'm not sure if it's intentional to force you to use WSL or the Hyper-V VM subsystem exclusively, if it is I can't see how it's a wise move. Enabling Hyper-V also meant that virtualbox completely lost the ability to have a clock that ran properly - each VM was seeing the hardware timer out by 3 seconds every minute, and thus the only fix there was to run ntp every minute. vmware wasn't affected somehow.
johnwalkr 3y ago
Darn, no GPU support for UTM. I'm using solidworks on Parallels/ARM windows 11 on my 14" M1 macbook pro and it works well, slightly faster than on my 2019 intel 13" macbook pro with bootcamp. I would love to move away from parallels and stop repurchasing it every time MacOS is updated and it stops working.
eurekin 3y ago
I use one Windows desktop for a LLM & Stable Diffusion server (among others). I like to conserve power, so I have remote power switch (just a smart plug) and configured wake on Lan with very short time to sleep. I have been very happy with it working, until it suddenly stops responding. I walk back to it and 5 out of 6 times it's Windows update blue full screen that essentially reads "we're changing settings for browser". That one time is BSOD
intelVISA 3y ago
Modern hardware can power VMs within 1-5% of native and passthrough PCI-e devices... there's virtually no excuse to risk your machine's health and security by exposing it to Windows on bare metal in 2023. Stay smart, stay protected.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  Doesn't nvidia limit gpu pass through to vms?
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    Not with their latest cards afaik, and the older ones have workarounds.
FredPret 3y ago
I became a new MacOS user when the M1 was released. One thing I really like is that it's so much more similar to Linux than Windows. Many of my favourite Linux server tools also run on Mac. They're either included or are a "brew install x" away. Everything from cron to nginx (for local web dev) works like a charm. Combine this with the extreme ease of doing office-type work on a Macbook: Excel works, printing / scanning works. Add in multi-day battery life and a kickass CPU. Price this the same or lower than the equivalent Windows machine. It's a learning curve to go from Windows to MacOS, but well worth it, and a total no-brainer for most non-gamers.
- acruns 3y ago
  people can't manage to block "malware" on a Windows system but somehow manage to use a dev tools? and the idea that a Mac costs the same or less as a dell/hp is ludicrous. the cheapest MacBook air is $1000, while a Windows laptop is $500. sorry to destroy your ideology but at least be honest and say I prefer a Mac and can afford it suck windows can pound sand.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Equivalent hardware. $500 does not buy you a Mac Air level laptop. And I am talking about power users, not the hypothetical grandma. Although grandma is ALSO better served by a Macbook.
    - math_dandy 3y ago
      Regarding hardware for grandma, you misspelled iPad.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        Correct, grandma should use an iPad. Big screen, big fonts, plays Wordle, does Facetime, doesn't even have a terminal. I love my iPad for video and games like chess. Even some people who draw like theirs for that.
      - 3y ago
gentleman11 3y ago
But hn worships the Microsoft ceo. That tall praiseworthy man who has taught us all what we should aspire to. He is a brave, glorious man See also: fake search results when looking for chrome in bing https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/6/23736289/microsoft-bing-chrome-search-fake-ai-chatbot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/6/23736289/microsoft-bing-ch...
hospitalJail 3y ago
No Nvidia though. That is what you are paying for with Windows.
bradgessler 3y ago
How well does the file system perform when it writes through the hypervisor on those VMs? I’ve tried running Docker for development environments on macOS but gave up because writing and reading files from macOS host was 2 orders of magnitude slower than native performance.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
> But I can't stand the scammy adware infused OS Windows has become Set up the drivers for a professional level ASUS motherboard last night, during the installation of the drivers, which was essential because LAN and Wifi didn't work without them. It showed me ads for Norton 360 and WinRar over and over during the installation that seemed to take way longer than it should. Then it told me an update was required and preselected in the update was install WinRar and Norton360. Like ASUS, please I'm begging you, just charge me the $0.20 to $1 more that these ads earned you direct to me. Please just charge what you need to make a quality professional product and have some self respect for what you're shipping. This only happens because it's become normal all across windows software and tools.
yread 3y ago
can't you just install the enterprise version or whatever it's called. The real 'Pro'
- tremon 3y ago
  Enterprise version is not available for purchase in single-license; FAFAIK, you need a licensing agreement first.
hot_gril 3y ago
Microsoft stuff is a whole separate world that I've never explored, so I was surprised to learn that .NET isn't just for developing Windows applications. What's your workflow with that, and is it compromised in any way by developing outside of Microsoft's platform?
- mythz 3y ago
  .NETs (fka .NET Core) is cross platform since inception and now runs fast and flawlessly on Linux and macOS. I only use it to build server (i.e. non GUI) Apps. The tooling and workflow is just as good on Windows as I’m able to use Jet Brains Rider / VS Code to develop .NET projects on both. Having a full native Unix Terminal and using tools like Docker is nicer on macOS, installing and building OSS projects is better supported but Finder is worse than Explorer which is IMO the biggest drawback.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    > Finder is worse than Explorer which is IMO the biggest drawback. As a longtime Mac user, I agree. Quicklook is nice, but that's about it.
sixothree 3y ago
Apple is so user hostile in so many ways. I don’t understand what people see in it.

by mythz 3y ago

knighthack 3y ago

Younger kids are getting used to Linux via Steam and the Steam Deck, and support for games on Linux are increasing constantly. I'd wager that the upcoming generation will be less kept to Windows, which will be a good thing.

gumballindie 3y ago

Why not Linux (depending on your line of work). Wider hardware choice, easier to upgrade, and no corporate oversight. Doesn't cover all use cases but it's a good option these days.

trustingtrust 3y ago
With computers like framework and system76, the community for hardware support is solid too now. Seriously considering a switch from M1. I feel like macOS is half baked development environment. I only stay because I never bought a Linux supported computer and I got the M1 air very cheap. But I am considering getting a framework as I just damaged a usb-c port and I am not entering apple’s repairability problem.
- backendanon 3y ago
  I've had excellent support from Linux across a variety of machines for 2 decades. Dell, Lenovo and HP.
- _fat_santa 3y ago
  While Framework and Sys76 are the two major players in the Linux laptop space, if you are looking to save money I would recommend picking up a Dell/Lenovo/HP "business" laptop, those run Linux really well and a good chunk are even certified to run Ubuntu. In my experience though I stopped buying laptops for personal use and started buying desktops. Easier to upgrade, usually cheaper and better support for Linux just by virtue of not having things like a Wifi or BT card.
  - pxc 3y ago
    Why is Framework considered a player in that space? What does that company actively do to improve Linux support? Do they offer free BIOSes like coreboot? Are any of their peripheral firmwares open-source? What kind of Linux compatibility do they guarantee for their hardware prior to launch? Afaik they're exactly the same as Lenovo: a Windows PC manufacturer that happens to be popular with Linux users, and which doesn't go out of their way to break things for Linux users. But they've shipped laptops that had broken power management on Linux on launch day, for example. They're not a Linux hardware vendor.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Lenovo Thinkpads have explicit Linux support, but they still tend to have issues with Bluetooth audio at the very least.
      - pxc 3y ago
        That's a welcome development. In the past, every time I've been in the market for a laptop, they had few or no explicitly supported models. (The Bluetooth thing sucks though.)
- 3y ago
gorjusborg 3y ago
Not the person you responded to, but I'm in the same boat; I went from grudgingly using it due to being the 'best' in practice, to seeing it as something I need to move away from. I've used the 'big three' (windows/macos/linux) desktop OSs at work and home in recent years. Here's my ranking: 1) Linux 2) MacOS 3) Windows Where I have control to use what I want, linux is my choice. At work though, I need to jump through endpoint management and security theater nonsense, so I am stuck choosing between MacOS and Windows.
mythz 3y ago
I do all my deployment to Linux Servers, but I want my main Desktop to just work and plan on sticking to the primary OS the hardware was built for. Don't need broad hardware support, it just needs to support M3 hardware when it comes out. I'm also running macOS software like Pixelmator Pro and Affinity software suite. I'm already running multiple Docker Linux containers, headless Ubuntu on lima and GUI Ubuntu and Fedora VMs in UTM, so don't feel like I'm missing out on the Desktop Linux experience. I could definitely do most of my development on Linux given .NET SDK and JetBrains products supports it, but I'll be waiting a few years at least for Asahi Linux to get feature parity before running it natively.
jwells89 3y ago
The frustrating thing about shopping for x86 laptops (as you probably will be if you’re wanting to run Linux) is how few models come even a little close to comparing to MacBooks in terms of battery life even with tools like tlp running and CPU throttled down as far as it’ll go, and that’s to say nothing about heat and fan noise. I’ve been looking around and the only two 12-14” options I can find that match that description are the HP Dragonfly G4 and ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD), and those still fall several hours short of the M2 Air, and the M3 Air will likely widen that gap with its SoC being on a smaller process node.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Battery is indeed best on macbooks. > ASUS Zenbook S OLED (AMD) I went for the asus proart studio book. high screen resolution, high refresh rate, the oled display is gorgeous (although the touch screen overlay is slightly visible, not an issue once used to it) and it feels more robust than a macbook. also trivially upgrade-able short of cpu and gpu. had to patch my acpi tables for sound support, and no asus dial compat yet. every now and then i get my hands dirty and i might be able to hack something to get it working. thus got a new hobby as well :-)
mort96 3y ago
The problem with PC hardware is that yes, there's more choice, but it's all mostly bad. Nobody other than Apple manages to put a decent and reliable trackpad on their machines for example, and all PC laptops I've used have at times gotten really loud. If you're okay with non-Windows OSes, hardware choice is the main reason to pick Apple machines. Also, Linux is coming along rather well on Apple Silicon machines.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  FWIW, I find current gen (starting with 8th) HP EliteBooks decent enough. They work perfectly in Linux (actually better than Windows, since for a while some bits weren't recognized...). They're quiet unless I'm compiling something (if I don't use Windows, which for some reasons gets the fan spinning even when it's supposed to be asleep). The trackpad is good, even though it's worse than my 2013 MBP's. The main issue I have with them is the absurdly bad displays. Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad.
  - jader201 3y ago
    > Even the top-of-the-line display is ridiculously bad. To me, that’s far from “decent enough”, not even taking into account the other (more minor) differences you name.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      The reason I mention it is because some people don't really care about display quality. I know basically none of my colleagues do. They'll see a MBP and go "yeah, it looks better. so?". But they do care if half the things don't work (think borked wifi or no webcam). So, for people like this, I find it's a good data point. And even though I do care about display quality, given my usage pattern, this isn't much of an issue in practice, since 99% of this PC's usage is tethered to a high-quality external screen. If I had a gorgeous MBP, I'd still be looking at the same monitor. The battery doesn't last as long as an M mac, either. But then again, I rarely use it away from a desk. I could technically use one of those mini pcs that I'd cart around, but for the 1% of the time when I do use while out and about, it's a good compromise.
hot_gril 3y ago
Linux is ok nowadays, but why? The Mac hardware is already better, and Apple isn't too annoying. You'll have more random nonsense to deal with on Linux, some of it not their fault.
- consoomer 3y ago
  Mac is more annoying than it seems. I went full Linux around three years ago. The annoyance for me peaked with Mac phoning home file data every time I tried to open a file and apps breaking upon major updates. My main issue was with the hardware though. I would spend $3,400-$4500 on a nice machine only to have the keyboard break and be told they would replace the entire motherboard, etc. Then to have a screen break due to a poor cable connection and be told I would have to replace everything again. I said fuck it and bought a decent machine with open hardware and a good-enough screen. It's no mac display, but damn... I haven't had to fight with hardware or software in about three years. The kicker? My machine only cost me $1,100 and battery isn't half bad. I get 9 hours with it.. which I never believed was possible with Linux before.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Apple isn't too annoying I find Apple to be too annoying for my tastes. Less annoying than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean much.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    It's that vs the annoyance of using Linux. Which is worse? I've been there, diagnosing bluetooth and wifi issues, dealing with free vs non-free drivers, finding out Netflix won't run in 1080p/4K, going down the Flash rabbit hole back then, dealing with sleep issues, having sound not work, jumping ship to whatever DE is best supported, messing with WINE for the plethora of non-Linux-supported apps, it never ends. A "how to do X in Linux" article exists for so many things that you'd never search for on Mac (or even Windows), but Linux users tend to make it sound like everything works out of the box.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
mrguyorama 3y ago
>Wider hardware choice You're joking right? Sure, something built in 2002 will probably still work well in Linux, but that's often the case for Windows, and on a Windows system, the hardware AND the proprietary software it came with will probably still work. Meanwhile, in Linux land, if you don't buy very very very specific hardware you can never hope to have functional sleep.
- tremon 3y ago
  You're joking right? Not as much as you. Windows 11 won't (officially) install on any system lacking a TPM v2.0. The only reason that Windows 11 can be installed without hassle on modern hardware is because every motherboard manufacturer started scrambling to outfit their systems with such a TPM by default. Also, for Windows Vista they completely rewrote their driver model for many devices, which means that no printer/scanner/sound card/graphics card from the year you mention has functioning drivers for any current Windows version. So no, something built in 2002 will most definitely not run current Windows. Even most systems built in 2018 will not run Windows 11.

giancarlostoro 3y ago

I wanted to add a new user account on my new Windows 11 system. It came with Windows Home right. So when I went to add one, it told me that feature is disabled because I have poor man's Windows, go to this other program. So I go to program B. Guess what program B told me? It told me I was using poor man's Windows to go back to program A to add a new user. I had to do it via command line. After I was about to remove my Hotmail user (I just wanted offline only users) I said screw this, and installed POP_OS! instead, installed Steam, and move on with life. I even played the good 'ole Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux thanks to Proton. I think at this point I have nothing keeping me using Windows other than the rare game that Proton doesn't support, but my old gaming rig still works and plays most games, so I can easily swap. It pisses me off though, because my Windows 10 box for some reason, at some point, any new program I install does not show up in the start menu whatsoever. I've not even been able to find anything on Google that remotely answers why its broken. At least with Steam I dont have to worry about it, but if I hit Windows Key and type anything, I dont see any programs I installed like three years ago. Freaking weird. Anyway, I think moving forward I'll be buying Mac or Linux Systems. I'll let employers buy me Windows boxes. Edit: Typo'd Proton as Photon ;)

kibwen 3y ago
I'm a big fan of PopOS after using it for over a year now. I hadn't used desktop Linux for over a decade and expected the usual hassle and obscure fiddling, but in all honesty I've found it easier to use than not just Windows (obviously, it's a shitshow these days) but even Mac too (which wouldn't let me configure my suspend settings without running obscure shell commands copied off the internet, and required me to set up homebrew to get any decent software store, and broke git on every single system update, and...)
- giancarlostoro 3y ago
  I might switch to Fedora since I want something kind of "rolling" but not quite bleeding edge. But I've used Debian/Ubuntu based OS' for a while, and POP is definitely one of my favorites currently. I will nag about one thing though, their package manager UI has some severe bug where it halts the whole UI (probably a threading issue).

capableweb 3y ago

I want so badly be a big fan of WSL, but I just can't, I'm hitting too many issues for it to be productive and I had to jump back into a proper Linux environment... > But they make it really hard to rely on. From random shutdowns, GPU unreliability to data corruption and performance differences with just using Linux directly, I had to move away from it and back to Linux because I felt like I slowly losing my mind troubleshooting these issues. > Latest issue was that the virtual disk file continued to grow beyond 500GB large while Linux still reported that it was just 20% full from the inside. So, reading about things, I gave optimize-vhd a try and boom, full disk file was corrupted. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37308850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37308850 I wish it was working properly, because I have to use Windows for other things anyways and I don't really care about ads because I don't feel like they're getting in the way when I use the OS. But that WSL basically doesn't work properly is such a showstopper.

ndriscoll 3y ago
Yeah I don't understand the love for WSL. Within the first couple weeks of using it, I've run into * Time doesn't stay in sync after sleeping, which breaks package updating. * It doesn't get the DNS servers it should from DHCP, so you have to go manually edit /etc/resolv.conf * The filesystem is super slow, and git commands take multiple seconds. All stuff that can be worked around, but I don't have to deal with this crap when just running Linux, and all Windows gets me is a clunky UI and ads. It's mystifying to me that everyone is somehow capable of managing fleets of Linux servers just fine, but for some reason managing developer Linux workstations is impossible, so we end up with these Rube Goldberg machines.
- NikkiA 3y ago
  The problem I see most often is that WSL causes processor stalls in my other VMs, I'm not sure if it's intentional to force you to use WSL or the Hyper-V VM subsystem exclusively, if it is I can't see how it's a wise move. Enabling Hyper-V also meant that virtualbox completely lost the ability to have a clock that ran properly - each VM was seeing the hardware timer out by 3 seconds every minute, and thus the only fix there was to run ntp every minute. vmware wasn't affected somehow.

johnwalkr 3y ago

Darn, no GPU support for UTM. I'm using solidworks on Parallels/ARM windows 11 on my 14" M1 macbook pro and it works well, slightly faster than on my 2019 intel 13" macbook pro with bootcamp. I would love to move away from parallels and stop repurchasing it every time MacOS is updated and it stops working.

eurekin 3y ago

I use one Windows desktop for a LLM & Stable Diffusion server (among others). I like to conserve power, so I have remote power switch (just a smart plug) and configured wake on Lan with very short time to sleep. I have been very happy with it working, until it suddenly stops responding. I walk back to it and 5 out of 6 times it's Windows update blue full screen that essentially reads "we're changing settings for browser". That one time is BSOD

intelVISA 3y ago

Modern hardware can power VMs within 1-5% of native and passthrough PCI-e devices... there's virtually no excuse to risk your machine's health and security by exposing it to Windows on bare metal in 2023. Stay smart, stay protected.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago
Doesn't nvidia limit gpu pass through to vms?
- intelVISA 3y ago
  Not with their latest cards afaik, and the older ones have workarounds.

FredPret 3y ago

I became a new MacOS user when the M1 was released. One thing I really like is that it's so much more similar to Linux than Windows. Many of my favourite Linux server tools also run on Mac. They're either included or are a "brew install x" away. Everything from cron to nginx (for local web dev) works like a charm. Combine this with the extreme ease of doing office-type work on a Macbook: Excel works, printing / scanning works. Add in multi-day battery life and a kickass CPU. Price this the same or lower than the equivalent Windows machine. It's a learning curve to go from Windows to MacOS, but well worth it, and a total no-brainer for most non-gamers.

acruns 3y ago
people can't manage to block "malware" on a Windows system but somehow manage to use a dev tools? and the idea that a Mac costs the same or less as a dell/hp is ludicrous. the cheapest MacBook air is $1000, while a Windows laptop is $500. sorry to destroy your ideology but at least be honest and say I prefer a Mac and can afford it suck windows can pound sand.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Equivalent hardware. $500 does not buy you a Mac Air level laptop. And I am talking about power users, not the hypothetical grandma. Although grandma is ALSO better served by a Macbook.
  - math_dandy 3y ago
    Regarding hardware for grandma, you misspelled iPad.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Correct, grandma should use an iPad. Big screen, big fonts, plays Wordle, does Facetime, doesn't even have a terminal. I love my iPad for video and games like chess. Even some people who draw like theirs for that.
    - 3y ago

gentleman11 3y ago

But hn worships the Microsoft ceo. That tall praiseworthy man who has taught us all what we should aspire to. He is a brave, glorious man See also: fake search results when looking for chrome in bing https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/6/23736289/microsoft-bing-chrome-search-fake-ai-chatbot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/6/23736289/microsoft-bing-ch...

hospitalJail 3y ago

No Nvidia though. That is what you are paying for with Windows.

bradgessler 3y ago

How well does the file system perform when it writes through the hypervisor on those VMs? I’ve tried running Docker for development environments on macOS but gave up because writing and reading files from macOS host was 2 orders of magnitude slower than native performance.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

> But I can't stand the scammy adware infused OS Windows has become Set up the drivers for a professional level ASUS motherboard last night, during the installation of the drivers, which was essential because LAN and Wifi didn't work without them. It showed me ads for Norton 360 and WinRar over and over during the installation that seemed to take way longer than it should. Then it told me an update was required and preselected in the update was install WinRar and Norton360. Like ASUS, please I'm begging you, just charge me the $0.20 to $1 more that these ads earned you direct to me. Please just charge what you need to make a quality professional product and have some self respect for what you're shipping. This only happens because it's become normal all across windows software and tools.

yread 3y ago

can't you just install the enterprise version or whatever it's called. The real 'Pro'

tremon 3y ago
Enterprise version is not available for purchase in single-license; FAFAIK, you need a licensing agreement first.

hot_gril 3y ago

Microsoft stuff is a whole separate world that I've never explored, so I was surprised to learn that .NET isn't just for developing Windows applications. What's your workflow with that, and is it compromised in any way by developing outside of Microsoft's platform?

mythz 3y ago
.NETs (fka .NET Core) is cross platform since inception and now runs fast and flawlessly on Linux and macOS. I only use it to build server (i.e. non GUI) Apps. The tooling and workflow is just as good on Windows as I’m able to use Jet Brains Rider / VS Code to develop .NET projects on both. Having a full native Unix Terminal and using tools like Docker is nicer on macOS, installing and building OSS projects is better supported but Finder is worse than Explorer which is IMO the biggest drawback.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  > Finder is worse than Explorer which is IMO the biggest drawback. As a longtime Mac user, I agree. Quicklook is nice, but that's about it.

sixothree 3y ago

Apple is so user hostile in so many ways. I don’t understand what people see in it.