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Read: Amazon CEO lays off its remote staff without severance

by mydriasis 3y ago

djohnston 3y ago
If you just don't quit eventually there is still a dismissal + severance right? What if I just keep working from home?
- joezydeco 3y ago
  Nobody owes you severance, unless you have a contract that says so. It might be offered in return for something they want you to do, like not badmouthing them on social media or suing for wrongful termination. Constructive dismissal is a more relevant topic here.
  - greggsy 3y ago
    Does constructive dismissal apply if there was an expectation to work in a traditional office setting when you commenced? I can imagine it would apply if it’s completely impractical to do so (e.g. during a pandemic), or if they keep changing the workplace location unreasonably, but I don’t think that’s the case here.
    - idkyall 3y ago
      I am not sure on all of the details as it seems most of the reporting on this is based on rumors leaked from Blind, but from what I understand, there is both RTO and ReturnToTeam at Amazon. RTT means you need to be in the same hub as the rest of your team[1]. So people may be within range of an Amazon office, but being asked to re-locate to another hub entirely if they joined or transferred to an org or team without a presence nearby. I think for those who were in person prior to the pandemic there is little recourse, but as I understand it, there are also people were hired as fully remote during the pandemic who are being asked to relocate[2]. I believe exceptions are not allowed unless you are L6 level or above. [1]https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2023/rising-use-of-amex-cards-shows-credit-appeals-to-savvy-younger-consumers/ https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2023/rising-use-... [2]https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/15ttywo/amazon_rto_finally_got_me_remotefriendly_companies/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/15ttywo/am...
  - fatfingerd 3y ago
    I think the WARN ACT would most likely apply if they terminate too many workers at once at one expected workplace, whether or not they think they have cause. It's interesting that the WARN ACT is not well written for WFH developments, but I don't know that that matters given that Amazon is considering people to have mandatory locations.
  - snotrockets 3y ago
    As those are mass layoffs, prior notice (not "you're fired if you don't come to the office", but "we will fire you in X days") is required.
- linguae 3y ago
  Severance isn’t guaranteed unless it’s company policy, and I would be concerned about being ineligible for unemployment benefits if I’m fired for breaking a company rule on attendance. Granted, I don’t know if being required to return to the office counts as constructive dismissal (and thus becoming eligible for unemployment benefits) if I was promised remote work and if I live too far from the office for a reasonable commute.
stevenae 3y ago
Lots of folks saying severance is not required. There are laws around mass layoffs in the US, requiring notice or severance.
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  Even under the premise that ending a temporary Covid policy is like a layoff, they've given quite a bit of notice. The source article says RTO for 3 days a week has been required since May.
  - stevenae 3y ago
    To continue the conversation: notice would be specifically saying, "you are officially laid off", not, "if you don't do this thing, we will lay you off".
UncleMeat 3y ago
It is sort of the opposite. The people with remote contracts aren't affected by this. It is the people who have contracts that list a work location but who have been working remotely anyway because of workplace flexibility who are affected. Yes, it is a crappy situation and workplace flexibility should be way way way more common but it isn't laying off remote staff.
- Civil7598 3y ago
  Nope. All of us with "Remote (State)" are told to move or quit. We had exceptions by VPs but are now told we need to get CEO or HR exceptions.
- bradjohnson 3y ago
  > The people with remote contracts aren't affected by this. False. I currently work at Amazon and was hired remotely, as per my employment contract, and I've been forced to relocate or resign.
polski-g 3y ago
Why would you expect severance for being terminated with cause (re: insubordination)?
- notatoad 3y ago
  Big companies hate firing for cause. it's almost always cheaper to pay the severance than to take on the liability of proving cause. It's extremely unlikely that amazon would go this route. Disguising layoffs as something else is about the stock price. It's not about getting out of paying severance.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Read: Amazon CEO lays off its remote staff without severance

djohnston 3y ago

If you just don't quit eventually there is still a dismissal + severance right? What if I just keep working from home?

joezydeco 3y ago
Nobody owes you severance, unless you have a contract that says so. It might be offered in return for something they want you to do, like not badmouthing them on social media or suing for wrongful termination. Constructive dismissal is a more relevant topic here.
- greggsy 3y ago
  Does constructive dismissal apply if there was an expectation to work in a traditional office setting when you commenced? I can imagine it would apply if it’s completely impractical to do so (e.g. during a pandemic), or if they keep changing the workplace location unreasonably, but I don’t think that’s the case here.
  - idkyall 3y ago
    I am not sure on all of the details as it seems most of the reporting on this is based on rumors leaked from Blind, but from what I understand, there is both RTO and ReturnToTeam at Amazon. RTT means you need to be in the same hub as the rest of your team[1]. So people may be within range of an Amazon office, but being asked to re-locate to another hub entirely if they joined or transferred to an org or team without a presence nearby. I think for those who were in person prior to the pandemic there is little recourse, but as I understand it, there are also people were hired as fully remote during the pandemic who are being asked to relocate[2]. I believe exceptions are not allowed unless you are L6 level or above. [1]https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2023/rising-use-of-amex-cards-shows-credit-appeals-to-savvy-younger-consumers/ https://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2023/rising-use-... [2]https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/15ttywo/amazon_rto_finally_got_me_remotefriendly_companies/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/15ttywo/am...
- fatfingerd 3y ago
  I think the WARN ACT would most likely apply if they terminate too many workers at once at one expected workplace, whether or not they think they have cause. It's interesting that the WARN ACT is not well written for WFH developments, but I don't know that that matters given that Amazon is considering people to have mandatory locations.
- snotrockets 3y ago
  As those are mass layoffs, prior notice (not "you're fired if you don't come to the office", but "we will fire you in X days") is required.
linguae 3y ago
Severance isn’t guaranteed unless it’s company policy, and I would be concerned about being ineligible for unemployment benefits if I’m fired for breaking a company rule on attendance. Granted, I don’t know if being required to return to the office counts as constructive dismissal (and thus becoming eligible for unemployment benefits) if I was promised remote work and if I live too far from the office for a reasonable commute.

stevenae 3y ago

Lots of folks saying severance is not required. There are laws around mass layoffs in the US, requiring notice or severance.

SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
Even under the premise that ending a temporary Covid policy is like a layoff, they've given quite a bit of notice. The source article says RTO for 3 days a week has been required since May.
- stevenae 3y ago
  To continue the conversation: notice would be specifically saying, "you are officially laid off", not, "if you don't do this thing, we will lay you off".

UncleMeat 3y ago

It is sort of the opposite. The people with remote contracts aren't affected by this. It is the people who have contracts that list a work location but who have been working remotely anyway because of workplace flexibility who are affected. Yes, it is a crappy situation and workplace flexibility should be way way way more common but it isn't laying off remote staff.

Civil7598 3y ago
Nope. All of us with "Remote (State)" are told to move or quit. We had exceptions by VPs but are now told we need to get CEO or HR exceptions.
bradjohnson 3y ago
> The people with remote contracts aren't affected by this. False. I currently work at Amazon and was hired remotely, as per my employment contract, and I've been forced to relocate or resign.

polski-g 3y ago

Why would you expect severance for being terminated with cause (re: insubordination)?

notatoad 3y ago
Big companies hate firing for cause. it's almost always cheaper to pay the severance than to take on the liability of proving cause. It's extremely unlikely that amazon would go this route. Disguising layoffs as something else is about the stock price. It's not about getting out of paying severance.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]