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There are two macro population health trends that suggest we are somehow poisoning ourselves at a large scale. Most people do not relate the two, but I persona
by bhouston 3y ago
There are two macro population health trends that suggest we are somehow poisoning ourselves at a large scale. Most people do not relate the two, but I personally wouldn't be surprised if they have related causes.
The first is the Flynn effect, which was rising IQ levels decade over decade, which halted and then reserved for most Western nations around 1990s/2000s and is now declining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
The second is the dropping fertility/sperm counts/hormone issues/etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_infertility_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_infertility_crisis
I think microplastics along with forever chemicals/PFAS are two of the likely culprits and are probably fairly easy to deal with.
I wonder what else could be contributing?
- hotstickyballs 3y ago[flagged]
- xdavidliu 3y agoi don’t think evolution works that fast; the only thing that fast would be something like selective breeding for dogs, but thats intentional; the type of evolution you’re talking about is more on the order of 10^6 years
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoEvolution is working every single generation. Dogs no more or less than humans or anything else. Dogs were selected, but everything responds to environmental pressures. All the time. Natural ones no different than human-provided ones, right? And humans have changed more in the last 50K years than in the 1M before that. Because of civilization I have to think. Anyway, off by 2 orders of magnitude there, for really significant changes.
- xdavidliu 3y agoi’m not saying the effect is zero; im saying the effect is clearly too small; there are obviously degrees to this. halving of overall hormone levels are surely not explained by a measly three generations of improved health care removing the selective pressure in favor of the survival of high-hormone humans
- lukas099 3y agoEveryone always says this but I’ve never heard it from an actual evolutionary biologist. Some genes evolve faster than others; in fact, some genes have themselves evolved to be able to evolve faster.
- flavius29663 3y agoI think Eugenism started with this kind of argument.
- bhouston 3y ago> Improvement of health services reduces selection pressure on reproductive fitness of population Yes this is true. With all the C-section babies we have now, if we ever loss access to low cost surgical delivery care, we are going to have a spike in childbirth related deaths. But the male infertility crisis is rising faster than evolution can adapt here. There is something external involved.
- tsukikage 3y ago...we should be just fine in the (English-speaking) west then: to a first approximation, no-one can afford the US health services outside dire emergencies, while over in the UK they're busy "starving the beast" so they can privatise huge swathes of it.
- AngryData 3y agoThe average human reproductive fitness level is not anywhere near bad enough for just a couple of generations to have such a profound effect on reproductive health.
- spicyusername 3y agoprobably fairly easy to deal with. [citation needed]
- bhouston 3y agoMy suggestion, which isn't rocket science: Ban plastic food containers for any type of long-term storage or anything that gets heated up (and different plastics have different microplastic shedding profiles, so ban the worst first) and also ban PFAS in anything that gets close to food. It will increase costs, but the alternative is we poison ourselves, so it is sort of needed. Phase it in so that industries have time to adapt.
- coffeebeqn 3y agoThat’s hardly the only source. And the plastics are already in the ecosystem and circulating for a very long time even if we banned all plastics today - which we won’t and instead every year we produce and use more
- bhouston 3y ago> That’s hardly the only source. Sure, everything is multi factor. Saying things are complex is a way to ensure there is no action taken ever. > And the plastics are already in the ecosystem and circulating for a very long time even if we banned all plastics today - which we won’t and instead every year we produce and use more Sure, but the sooner we act, once we know for sure this is a significant contributor, the sooner we stop making the problem worse. I want my children to be able to have children, don't you?
- zekrioca 3y agoDoes it matter though? By banning plastics, we would increase awareness and move one step closer to solve this.
- flavius29663 3y agoI think that with the advances in refrigeration, materials, logistics, we can safely go back to having bulk food for a lot of our needs. Also reusable glass containers instead of plastic bottles (e.g. for milk, oil, etc.)
- hoseja 3y agoYou need to add obesity to that.
- tomrod 3y agoPerhaps related to microplastics interfering with the endocrine system. https://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/programs/geh/geh_newsletter/2022/6/spotlight/microplastics_may_increase_risk_for_obesity.cfm https://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/programs/geh/geh_newslett...
- doublerabbit 3y agoWhich is ironic as to the fact that fatty products are normally encased in toxic plastics.
- rajamaka 3y agoAlongside fruits and vegetables
- fingting 3y ago[flagged]
- purpleflame1257 3y agoSperm counts have been falling since the 50s, though.
- fingting 3y ago[flagged]
- bhouston 3y agoI tried to find a citation and it was sort of mixed in terms of results -- it doesn't seem like it is the primary cause of it dropping across the board: https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-745766 https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-745766
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoThe Flynn effect reversal has a pretty simple (but unpopular) explanation that has nothing to do with microplastics.
- constantly 3y agoCould you please share this simple explanation for those of us who aren’t as smart as you?
- bhouston 3y agoI'm pretty sure he is going to either say either immigrants or something related to Chad vs Incel. But more concretely, there is evidence that conservatives out reproduce liberals in the US and in part it is related to the urban - country divide and that could also be related to both pollution, but also likely cost of living: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advantage https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant...
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoSomething else it could be is that the internet is a great tool for learning and connecting, but it's also a great tool for turning your brain off and being passively entertained for hours on end. Even worse than that would be the concept of algorithmic thinking patterns being trained into people as they allow a social media site to "tell" them what to think about. An example would be people who go onto Twixxer to find out what they are supposed to be mad about today. I understand that there are legitimate issues which need a spotlight put on them and social media can be a great tool for that. But it also thrives on that level of anger and energy, so there is a decent amount of less-than-dire issues being flogged just for engagement. If enough people are just entertaining their brain away/being directed by an algorithm more often than not, I can see this moving the needle on general intelligence since "the brain is a muscle" and not using it means you can lose it over time.
- oceanofsolaris 3y agoI assume dysgenics (which you’d assume is happening if family size is inversely correlated with education and or income). AFAIK there are some studies that show that dysgenics are at least not the only effect in play (e.g. this study https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1718793115 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1718793115). But I am far from an expert on the topic.
- rthomas6 3y agoAlso the metabolic syndrome/obesity epidemic. 40% of US adults have obesity. By 2030 about half of US adults will, and in 29 states more than half of adults will be obese. We see obesity becoming increasingly normalized. People feel powerless to stop it and that we should just accept it. It feels to me like there is something besides diet changes happening to us. That's part of it, but I wonder if microplastics or some kind of gut biome disruption is playing a role as well.
- bhouston 3y agoObesity is caused in part by environmental toxins, probably to different extents in different people: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/19/environmental-toxins-are-worsening-obesity-pandemic-say-scientists https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/19/environm... https://www.webmd.com/obesity/what-to-know-obesogens https://www.webmd.com/obesity/what-to-know-obesogens These so called "obesogens" just increase the propensity towards obesity and depending on exposure and your sensitivity to then, you can overcome them or not via exercise and dieting and other means.
- saberience 3y agoObesity is caused by eating too much. If you don’t eat then you won’t gain weight, there is no subverting the laws of thermodynamics. It sounds callous but if you go to Africa or visit a prisoner of war camp you won’t find many fat people and so blaming chemicals in America for so many fat people doesn’t make much sense to me.
- purpleflame1257 3y agoObesity itself is oestrogenic. It's the calories, stupid!
- remarkEon 3y agoI used to think this, that the obesity thing was just a function of an increase in calorie consumption and a drop off in physical activity. I just can't take this view seriously anymore. When you look around today, there are body types that never existed prior to the 1970s - at least at any kind of scale. Comparing pictures of family gatherings from the 1950s through the 1970s, and then to the 1990s and beyond and there's such a stark, shocking difference. Two of my cousins had gastric bypass surgery (before they passed away), and there was never a real change in their diet or exercise (one was a cop, so it's not like he didn't get exercise). Something is poisoning us in America, and if there was one issue presidential candidates should be talking about that should be an easy bipartisan win it's health and fitness.
- confidantlake 3y agoIt is the calories. We are simply eating many more calories than in the 1970s. Cheap, high calorie, highly processed food were not ubiquitous like they are today. Being a cop is a very sedentary position in most of America. Unless you are a city cop out walking around you are probably in your car most of the day.
- remarkEon 3y agoI'm not being clear, because there's some confusion in the replies to my comment here and elsewhere in the larger thread. I'm not denying that calorie counting helps most people lose weight. I did it to cut after a gain phase when I was training for certain events. Of course it works (for most people), and I agree with you that I wish more people did it. What I am saying is that, for many and an increasing number of people, something is wrong - calorie surplus or not - with that they're ingesting. Even the physiology of being "fat" in the 1950s looked absolutely nothing like obesity does today. The "processed" part is the difference, though, so we certainly agree on that point.
- FollowingTheDao 3y agoEMFs.
- bedhead 3y ago[flagged]
- SubiculumCode 3y agoOut of sight out of mind. humans rarely react to anything unless they see it. If microplastics caused us to bleed out our eyeballs, things would change quick.
- throwaway92837 3y ago[dead]
- screye 3y agoIs there no existing population that has been minimally affected by these 2 factors ? A controlled study is impossible to do, but the correlations and trend lines should show up when comparing across different population wide exposures to PFAs and microplastics. That's another reason I think it is important to keep granular data of localized IQ, fertility, and trends in reproductive choice. People are worried about what it will reveal. We should instead be worried about what we're missing.
- scythe 3y agoSure, there are plenty of such populations. The first one that comes to mind is the Kogi, who live in a sky island 4000 meters above northern Colombia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogi_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogi_people But none of those populations can actually be used for testing, because you would need to collect relevant data on them starting 50 years ago, and we don't have any time machines.
- bawolff 3y ago> The first is the Flynn effect, which was rising IQ levels decade over decade, which halted and then reserved for most Western nations around 1990s/2000s and then started to reverse a bit: Same point in time where people started to get cell phones and be always connected to the internet.
- confidantlake 3y agoUnderrated comment. When I was growing up I would often read books and do math problems for fun because there was not much else to do. Now I am constantly on the internet watching things and using my brain very little.
- wadd1e 3y agoI'd like to offer a single datapoint(mine) on this too, I'm going to university soon and in the last few years, the fact that the internet exists has allowed me to solve interesting math problems that I would've never learnt in school
- GoblinSlayer 3y agoI was solving crosswords.
- throwaway92837 3y ago[dead]
- throw4847285 3y agoI'm gonna need some more hard evidence before I believe that microplastics in the human body play a strong causative role in both infertility and changing IQ scores (and first you have to convince me of the import of IQ scores). It's a classic "jacking off butterflies" response. That's a reference to the TV show Childrens Hospital, in which one of the doctors finds a cure for cancer and it's butterfly semen. One of the other characters says something along the lines of "We both know cancer is an amalgam of unique conditions, it should be impossible to find a single cure" but they brush it off and starting jacking off butterflies. That's how I feel whenever people try to reduce complex social phenomena to a single simplistic cause. "We both know it can't be just this one thing, but let's pretend it is because that's easier to solve."
- joeframbach 3y agoAnd how do you feel about leaded gasoline?
- throw4847285 3y agoI don't go a day where I don't drink at least two glasses.
- bhouston 3y agoMicroplastics may be a significant cause of Male Infertility: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9134445/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9134445/ The plastic brain: neurotoxicity of micro- and nanoplastics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7282048/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7282048/ Phalates in plastics reduce IQ significantly: https://time.com/3625352/phthalates-iq-toxins/ https://time.com/3625352/phthalates-iq-toxins/
- throw4847285 3y agoI don't deny that there is more and more research every day about the negative impacts of microplastics on the human body. From my place of relative ignorance, it still seems that more sweeping claims like "Microplastics are responsible for the Flynn Effect and the male infertility crisis" are awfully bold. You throw obesity in there too, and doesn't it seem like folks are trying to pin all of society's ills on a single issue? It's like when people try to pathologize black people by arguing that all their social ills are actually just due to lead exposure. That has proven to be a very shaky argument, and one that has to plow through a lot of nuance and complex social phenomena to land on a materialist claim so simplistic that it's kind of infantilizing. Plus, the obsessive focus on IQ reeks of bad social science.
- flir 3y agoIf the Flynn Effect is caused by more complex environments, it's possible we've just maxed out the improvements to be had from turning up the gain on that. Maybe this is just as smart as we get because of hard biological limits.
- itomato 3y agoSolvent-extracted hydrogenated seed oils for one thing. Canola is an industry term, not Latin plant name, but why would culture repressed by toxic ersatz foodstuffs and microplastics care to know about brassica seeds?
- scythe 3y agoI was pretty disappointed to learn that hexane is still commonly used for solvent extraction of vegetable oil. Residual levels are generally < 50 ppb, but hexane metabolites can covalently bond to biomolecules [1] and take years to be removed [2]. There are tons of safer solvents to choose from. 1: https://chemistry-europe.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1002/cbic.201700210 https://chemistry-europe.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdire... 2: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/jns.12261 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/jns.12261
- scythe 3y ago>I wonder what else could be contributing? The Wikipedia article on the Flynn effect mentions air pollution. Though this is a little surprising because in some parts of the West, air pollution has decreased since the introduction of acid rain controls in the 1980s, while the decline shows up generally after the 90s.
- userbinator 3y agoI suspect those trends are more political rather than environmental.
- dhfjfhfh 3y agoI wonder if the Flynn effect could be more about our cultural environment then our chemical environment. In 1900 lots of people lived with low access to information or highly sensory stimulating environments. By 1950 there was a lot more stimulus and info. TV, comic books, color movies, rock & roll, fear of nuclear armageddon. By 2000 we're overloaded. Cable TV, computers, cheap and rapid long distance communication, fear of climate armageddon. Maybe the cognitive load has just become too much. Two beers might make you better at darts, but 20 won't.