7 ms·

> the latest retailer to capitulate to rising crime and lower foot traffic. Nordstrom also bailed on the entirety of the Canadian market. Was that also due to

> the latest retailer to capitulate to rising crime and lower foot traffic. Nordstrom also bailed on the entirety of the Canadian market. Was that also due to crime in SF? It's difficult to communicate and explain the enormous secular and systemic rippling shifts in economic conditions that have followed the pandemic and the shift to work from home, particularly and extraordinarily pronounced in SF for various reasons much more so than other places in the world. A much easier story to solely blame localized crime. It is doubtful this is the real cause.

johnny99k 3y ago
doubtful? Have you see the crime in SF? Walgreens has to have nearly everything locked up. You are right though. It's not just the crime. It's because the current government isn't willing to prosecute criminals that are stealing from these businesses. SF is starting to resemble Detroit, which has nearly no grocery stores in the city limits because of rampant crime.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Whole Foods just broke ground in the Western Addition, Lucky opened a new store in the Bayview, and a whole new local grocery chain called Luke's just sprang into existence in the last year.
  - darth_avocado 3y ago
    Flagship Whole Foods on market just shut down because of safety reasons. https://abc7.com/amp/whole-foods-san-francisco-store-closing-worker-safety-concerns/13115702/ https://abc7.com/amp/whole-foods-san-francisco-store-closing...
    - ribosometronome 3y ago
      To the point argued by the OP in this comment thread, Flagship Whole Foods /claims/ they shut down because of safety reasons. It looks better for leadership if the reasons they have to shut down are outside of their control, rather than things they should have been reasonably able to predict and thus look bad on them, like that opening a high end grocery store in a largely office district during the middle of a pandemic when no one was there is going to the area lead to issues getting people there.
    - sundaeofshock 3y ago
      They opened a Whole Foods in a location that has been problematic for at least 50 years and then complain about all the crime in the area. Whatever…
      - pfisherman 3y ago
        This is the truth. Mid market has always been sketchy. Nobody lives or hangs out in downtown SF. Downtown is for the “bridge and tunnel” crowd. Like why would you ever put it here and not in one of the neighborhoods (ex Sunset, Richmond, Glen Park, Soma). That being said the 5th street area losing Nordstrom is a big blow. Things there have certainly gotten worse recently as it has started more and more resemble Market street on the other side of Seventh.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > SF is starting to resemble Detroit Ways you can tell that someone has never been to either San Francisco nor Detroit: a case in point.
  - johnny99k 3y ago
    heh. I lived in Detroit for 2 decades (I was born there) and still visit regularly. I also worked in SF for a long time as well. Reply-guys being reply-guys.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I lived in Toledo for four years so visited Detroit often during that time, and I lived in the Bay Area for a few years as well. I just can’t see anyone saying SF is like Detroit without some huge distortions going on.
      - borkt 3y ago
        Where in the Bay Area do you currently live? We are talking about market street sf here, not sea cliff.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Lived, sorry, typo, for 2 years. I’m pretty familiar with market street. Heck, I worked right next to the Caltrain station for a year, that area isn’t the nicest.
        TMWNN 3y ago
        "Right next to the Caltrain station" on 4th and King is way, way nicer than the problem parts of Market Street. There is no comparison.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        No it’s not. Many of the people complaining about people pooping on the street happens in the area between the Caltrain station and the convention center, not market. It’s not like we didn’t walk to market often enough for lunch. I’ve seen burned out neighborhoods in Detroit, places that look like war zones. SF just has a large number of homeless in comparison, most of whom get there via the greyhound bus station.
- rcme 3y ago
  A quick Google search seems to suggest there are plenty of grocery stores within San Francisco.
  - johnny99k 3y ago
    I said starting to resemble. I referenced a Walgreens, so obviously they still have stores.
    - rcme 3y ago
      If SF was starting to resemble a place without grocery stores, I would expect few grocery stores. Instead I found hundreds.
      - johnny99k 3y ago
        Downtown Detroit had large department stores too. They all closed. This was the beginning of the spiral downward. If things continue, SF will look like Detroit in 10 years.
- Trias11 3y ago
  Elections are coming soon. Can't prosecute the voters if you want to be reelected.
TheBlight 3y ago
My suspicion is many people would be less reluctant to return to the office if the area didn't resemble the set of Mad Max.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  People don't want to RTO even in places that aren't downtown SF.
duskwuff 3y ago
As a luxury department store, Nordstrom was feeling a lot of pressure from both online retail and from big-box retailers even before the pandemic. It's a tough business to be in.
darth_avocado 3y ago
It’s typical of people who don’t live in SF to completely downplay the situation there as “propaganda” because it puts their favorite tribe under scrutiny. Stores can be shut down in one place for a specific reason while another place for a completely different reason. Nordstrom is located in probably the most expensive real estate in San Francisco, while the conditions just outside the stores are deteriorating. If this was just broader systemic problems, why is their massive store in San Jose still continuing? Clearly that should also be closing considering the fact that San Jose is also as expensive as San Francisco in terms of real estate?
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > San Jose is also as expensive as San Francisco in terms of real estate? Maybe for residential real estate. I have a hard time imagining that it's anywhere close to the same in the commercial sector; there's dramatically more supply in SJ.
  - darth_avocado 3y ago
    SF Average retail rent /sqft: $38.20 https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-francisco-commercial-real-estate-market https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-francisco-commercial-... San Jose Average retail rent /sqft: $39.60 https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-jose-commercial-real-estate-market https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-jose-commercial-real-...
    - duskwuff 3y ago
      The Crexi market overview for San Jose appears to extend far beyond San Jose and well into the Peninsula: > Major San Jose/Santa Clara County employers include Google, Apple, Facebook, the County of Santa Clara, and Stanford University. Mountain View and Palo Alto are both seeing a lot of demand for office space from Google and Facebook, respectively, and I suspect that's driving up the average. San Jose itself isn't seeing so much of that.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
topspin 3y ago
> It's difficult to communicate and explain Yes, it is. And it's not getting easier is it? Nordstrom was there for the tourists. But SF tourism hasn't recovered as well as conventional group-think imagined. When a tier 1 operation like Nordstrom bails it rings out like artillery fire for all the lesser operations. We're officially well past "didn't want that company anyway," aren't we?
jahewson 3y ago
“lower foot traffic” would cover work from home, no? Also I’ve been to this store and the area around it is nasty to the point that I no longer take my children there. Yes, retail is having a hard time in general but my goodness just go walk down that street - do it.
- borkt 3y ago
  It was nasty before the pandemic. I’ve frequented the metreon imax for probably two decades, as well as conferences at the Moscone center. The more people became obsessed with the world in their phones, the less they cared what was going on physically around them. We aren’t entitled to nice things, people worked very hard to build and maintain them. Collectively we accepted the decay, and now we have nothing

johnny99k 3y ago

doubtful? Have you see the crime in SF? Walgreens has to have nearly everything locked up. You are right though. It's not just the crime. It's because the current government isn't willing to prosecute criminals that are stealing from these businesses. SF is starting to resemble Detroit, which has nearly no grocery stores in the city limits because of rampant crime.

jeffbee 3y ago
Whole Foods just broke ground in the Western Addition, Lucky opened a new store in the Bayview, and a whole new local grocery chain called Luke's just sprang into existence in the last year.
- darth_avocado 3y ago
  Flagship Whole Foods on market just shut down because of safety reasons. https://abc7.com/amp/whole-foods-san-francisco-store-closing-worker-safety-concerns/13115702/ https://abc7.com/amp/whole-foods-san-francisco-store-closing...
  - ribosometronome 3y ago
    To the point argued by the OP in this comment thread, Flagship Whole Foods /claims/ they shut down because of safety reasons. It looks better for leadership if the reasons they have to shut down are outside of their control, rather than things they should have been reasonably able to predict and thus look bad on them, like that opening a high end grocery store in a largely office district during the middle of a pandemic when no one was there is going to the area lead to issues getting people there.
  - sundaeofshock 3y ago
    They opened a Whole Foods in a location that has been problematic for at least 50 years and then complain about all the crime in the area. Whatever…
    - pfisherman 3y ago
      This is the truth. Mid market has always been sketchy. Nobody lives or hangs out in downtown SF. Downtown is for the “bridge and tunnel” crowd. Like why would you ever put it here and not in one of the neighborhoods (ex Sunset, Richmond, Glen Park, Soma). That being said the 5th street area losing Nordstrom is a big blow. Things there have certainly gotten worse recently as it has started more and more resemble Market street on the other side of Seventh.
duskwuff 3y ago
> SF is starting to resemble Detroit Ways you can tell that someone has never been to either San Francisco nor Detroit: a case in point.
- johnny99k 3y ago
  heh. I lived in Detroit for 2 decades (I was born there) and still visit regularly. I also worked in SF for a long time as well. Reply-guys being reply-guys.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I lived in Toledo for four years so visited Detroit often during that time, and I lived in the Bay Area for a few years as well. I just can’t see anyone saying SF is like Detroit without some huge distortions going on.
    - borkt 3y ago
      Where in the Bay Area do you currently live? We are talking about market street sf here, not sea cliff.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Lived, sorry, typo, for 2 years. I’m pretty familiar with market street. Heck, I worked right next to the Caltrain station for a year, that area isn’t the nicest.
        TMWNN 3y ago
        "Right next to the Caltrain station" on 4th and King is way, way nicer than the problem parts of Market Street. There is no comparison.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        No it’s not. Many of the people complaining about people pooping on the street happens in the area between the Caltrain station and the convention center, not market. It’s not like we didn’t walk to market often enough for lunch. I’ve seen burned out neighborhoods in Detroit, places that look like war zones. SF just has a large number of homeless in comparison, most of whom get there via the greyhound bus station.
rcme 3y ago
A quick Google search seems to suggest there are plenty of grocery stores within San Francisco.
- johnny99k 3y ago
  I said starting to resemble. I referenced a Walgreens, so obviously they still have stores.
  - rcme 3y ago
    If SF was starting to resemble a place without grocery stores, I would expect few grocery stores. Instead I found hundreds.
    - johnny99k 3y ago
      Downtown Detroit had large department stores too. They all closed. This was the beginning of the spiral downward. If things continue, SF will look like Detroit in 10 years.
Trias11 3y ago
Elections are coming soon. Can't prosecute the voters if you want to be reelected.

TheBlight 3y ago

My suspicion is many people would be less reluctant to return to the office if the area didn't resemble the set of Mad Max.

ribosometronome 3y ago
People don't want to RTO even in places that aren't downtown SF.

duskwuff 3y ago

As a luxury department store, Nordstrom was feeling a lot of pressure from both online retail and from big-box retailers even before the pandemic. It's a tough business to be in.

darth_avocado 3y ago

It’s typical of people who don’t live in SF to completely downplay the situation there as “propaganda” because it puts their favorite tribe under scrutiny. Stores can be shut down in one place for a specific reason while another place for a completely different reason. Nordstrom is located in probably the most expensive real estate in San Francisco, while the conditions just outside the stores are deteriorating. If this was just broader systemic problems, why is their massive store in San Jose still continuing? Clearly that should also be closing considering the fact that San Jose is also as expensive as San Francisco in terms of real estate?

duskwuff 3y ago
> San Jose is also as expensive as San Francisco in terms of real estate? Maybe for residential real estate. I have a hard time imagining that it's anywhere close to the same in the commercial sector; there's dramatically more supply in SJ.
- darth_avocado 3y ago
  SF Average retail rent /sqft: $38.20 https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-francisco-commercial-real-estate-market https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-francisco-commercial-... San Jose Average retail rent /sqft: $39.60 https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-jose-commercial-real-estate-market https://www.crexi.com/insights/the-san-jose-commercial-real-...
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    The Crexi market overview for San Jose appears to extend far beyond San Jose and well into the Peninsula: > Major San Jose/Santa Clara County employers include Google, Apple, Facebook, the County of Santa Clara, and Stanford University. Mountain View and Palo Alto are both seeing a lot of demand for office space from Google and Facebook, respectively, and I suspect that's driving up the average. San Jose itself isn't seeing so much of that.
ribosometronome 3y ago

topspin 3y ago

> It's difficult to communicate and explain Yes, it is. And it's not getting easier is it? Nordstrom was there for the tourists. But SF tourism hasn't recovered as well as conventional group-think imagined. When a tier 1 operation like Nordstrom bails it rings out like artillery fire for all the lesser operations. We're officially well past "didn't want that company anyway," aren't we?

jahewson 3y ago

“lower foot traffic” would cover work from home, no? Also I’ve been to this store and the area around it is nasty to the point that I no longer take my children there. Yes, retail is having a hard time in general but my goodness just go walk down that street - do it.

borkt 3y ago
It was nasty before the pandemic. I’ve frequented the metreon imax for probably two decades, as well as conferences at the Moscone center. The more people became obsessed with the world in their phones, the less they cared what was going on physically around them. We aren’t entitled to nice things, people worked very hard to build and maintain them. Collectively we accepted the decay, and now we have nothing