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> Truthfully, I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this

> Truthfully, I'd prefer to get rid of the app and just have users go to the website and install the PWA, but the average user still doesn't know how to do this. Let's be clear: that's not because users don't know how to do it. It's because Google and Apple haven't made it as easy as installing an app from their app store. That's a choice, and it's a deliberate one.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://youtu.be/ddbHp8tGBwQ https://youtu.be/ddbHp8tGBwQ
- IshKebab 3y ago
  > it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Right, because for a very long time (and maybe still) PWAs have been much closer to terrible websites than good apps. They generally don't have the same UX properties as real apps. Remember when the iPhone first came out and web apps were the only option and they sucked balls? That never really changed. People still find mobile sites with maps that are impossible to use. They don't expect that from app store apps. And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient?
  - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
    > And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient? Really? You don't understand the value in having the PWA appear as a native app icon alongside everything else on the device?
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      You can do that with a link. Just click the three dots then "Add to home screen".
      - gnum4n 3y ago
        Yes, "Add to home screen" is exactly how you install a PWA to your phone =) It's a bit confusing, isn't it? "Add to home screen" makes it seem like you're just adding a link, but it's installing the PWA, possibly enabling notifications, and etc.
      - arcanemachiner 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    > And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient? The point is that there are apps that can pretty much be built entirely using web technologies as PWAs, but in doing so they are no longer "just web sites" and they need functionality of installed apps, like notifications. For example, most banking apps on Android could be entirely rewritten as PWAs, but they'd need to make use of things like notifications (I don't want a random website sending me notifications, but I DO want notifications of activity on my bank account) and camera APIs (e.g. for mobile check deposit).
    - janosdebugs 3y ago
      Both of these features are available in browsers these days.
      - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        Well, obviously all the features that are available to PWAs are available in browsers - a browser is the thing that executes a PWA to begin with. It basically is just a difference in use case and how most people thing about "apps" vs. "websites". If I have a long term relationship with a business, and I access its functionality frequently, I'd rather have it as an app on my homescreen.
      - anders_p 3y ago
        You might as well be arguing that people could just go to the bank instead of using technology. There are benefits to having something installed. You can give anything installed the ability to send notifications. Having to manage that permission on a per-website basis is way above the tech ability of most users. But this is apparently difficult for "tech literate" people to grasp.
    - astrange 3y ago
      I find bank apps to be the least flexible about notifications; there's no way to get them to use app notifications for a lot of things they insist on using email and/or SMS for. The last thing being the worst as SMS 2FA is so insecure, but SMS of your bank deposits isn't much better.
  - holoduke 3y ago
    But nowadays you can't really see the difference between good webapps and native apps. We also migrated our native apps to full SPA apps. And really it makes development so much easier. The apps we have are relatively simple without fancy stuff. But the css render engine is fast. Even on Android. And we reduced some of our apps from 30mbs of java code to 150kb of java/typescript. Plus as a bonus we can have a website and serve ios as well. For us there is really no reason to go back. Sidenote: some parts of the app are still native. Ads, Auth and analytics
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Thanks for posting, I think this is a great point. Web tech has advanced to the point that a large swath of apps can be implemented as PWAs with no loss of experience (though last I checked iOS was still holding things back). This isn't true for all apps, but with the notable exception of games, I'd say it applies to most: banking/finance apps, social media apps, travel/airline/booking apps, etc.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      > Ads, Auth and analytics So two of the three parts that are native are there to make it a worse user experience?
      - anders_p 3y ago
        If you seriously think analytics makes for a worse user experience, then you're speaking out of ignorance. Analytics tell developers exactly where bugs and crashes occur. And on which devices or versions of the OS the problem is. Without analytics it would take weeks/months to figure out exactly what line of code is causing the issue. Heck, the developers might NEVER KNOW that the software has an issue. Apps would just keep crashing on users for years. And developers would have no idea why users were abandoning their product. Nobody that has any idea what they're talking about would say that analytics makes for a worse user experience.
        scarface_74 3y ago
  - lrem 3y ago
    Just looking through the apps I currently have open… Bank app, chat app, maps, Tile, YouTube and a weather app. Only one of them is actually doing anything that wouldn’t fit a PWA. So why are they apps, not a collection of links?
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      I would say only the weather and bank apps would be really equal as a PWA. Maps require complex gestures and advanced graphics and UIs that would never work well as a PWA. Try maps.google.com. Its nothing like the Google Maps app. Plus Android Auto integration. Tile probably needs pretty deep Bluetooth integration and background processing that the web doesn't provide. YouTube can do things like PiP that you can't do on the web.
      - spion 3y ago
        PiP, the one feature of youtube that I did not want (in the majority of cases) but got anyway. edit: Sorry for the snark. I think that maps are probably doable with pointer events (https://caniuse.com/?search=pointer https://caniuse.com/?search=pointer) and Android is doing pretty well in terms of Web Bluetooth https://github.com/WebBluetoothCG/web-bluetooth/blob/main/implementation-status.md#chrome https://github.com/WebBluetoothCG/web-bluetooth/blob/main/im...
        mk12345 3y ago
        Good points. Additionally, PiP is also possible in most browsers. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Picture-in-Picture_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Picture-in-...
      - c-hendricks 3y ago
        I use YouTube in a browser on my phone specifically because it has PiP without having to pay Google monthly for the privilege. If I request the Desktop version of YouTube, where Google doesn't hide their own Mini player button, the video continues to play in the corner. Mapbox.js is also pretty capable. Not really sure what you're on about TBH.
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  On Android you have to pop open a menu and find the install option. That's not inherently discoverable as you need to know it's even possible, and most people don't. It would be trivial to present the user with a more proactive notification that a site can be installed as an app, or even include such a notice in their search results on Google, but they choose not to do so.
  - jarm0 3y ago
    Actually nowadays it's not that bad anymore. Android browser itself offers installable PWA and there is an event called beforeinstallprompt event (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/beforeinstallprompt_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/befo...), which can be used to perform PWA installation on user interaction. Of course it's not supported in every browser. iOS is more difficult since user needs to understand that "saving to home screen" is same as installing "app" and there's no way to trigger it programmatically or help user in any other way than with visual illustrations.
    - callalex 3y ago
      In iOS it’s also buried deep in the “share” menu which makes absolutely no sense as you are not sharing the website with anybody.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        That menu does far more than share, such as opening the URL or document or whatever you are viewing in a different app or saving it somewhere.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        How is it buried when it’s on the same level as everything else?
        hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        Because it doesn't make sense that it's part of the web share functionality to begin with. The native share dialog is about "I have this piece of content, now share it with one of these other apps", e.g. saving a document locally, or sending it with AirDrop, or saving to Google Drive, or sending as an email attachment, etc. Installing a site as an app on your homescreen has absolutely nothing to do with sharing content to begin with.
- streptomycin 3y ago
  I have some PWAs in the Play Store via that method. I also got this same Android API update email and had to jump through various hoops to update them all. I wish I could list an actual PWA (like a URL to a website) in the Play Store and then never have to worry about Android API version updates, since I'm literally not using any Android-specific features.
  - harshitaneja 3y ago
    Couldn't this be automated as a github action and run on a fixed schedule or triggered by policy update email?
- 8note 3y ago
  I just have no desire to have an app. The attempt to download one when I visit a website is unwelcome.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    That's what's pretty great about PWAs: 1. For people like you that don't want to install them, they're just a normal website. 2. For people that do want to install them for the added functionality (things like notifications), then it is easy to install, and furthermore cheaper for developers to build and maintain (one codebase instead of multiple). You say "you have no desire to have an app", but I think for most people that's really dependent on the site/application. Yeah, for any site I just have a short term or infrequent transaction, I don't want an app either. But many/most people use apps for businesses they have long term relationships with (namely financial institutions).
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      And web apps are always a worse experience. Even with simple things that should be a decent experience like the Papa John’s pizza app or AirBnb
      - cxr 3y ago
        That's not always because of anything intrinsic to the Web. We know that ordering a pizza isn't any more complicated than what can be represented on a paper form. Forms can also be capably represented in a browser. The problem is that app developers are by and large not capable of distilling the requirements down to what is necessary and sufficient for the task at hand. Instead, they're foolishly preoccupied with what they consider to be the mandate to deliver experiences. In short: most devs' simulacra suck.
      - e12e 3y ago
        > And web apps are always a worse experience. Check out: https://timetable.fusion-festival.de/ https://timetable.fusion-festival.de/
- mort96 3y ago
  On iOS you click share -> add to home screen. How much easier can it really be on Android?
- vimbtw 3y ago
  iOS allows for installing a website as an app. You can install PWAs without ever using the App Store.
zodester 3y ago
On iOS PWA installation is hidden under the share sheet but is easier in terms of accounts as you don't need an Apple ID signed into the App Store.
scarface_74 3y ago
You mean - click on the share button and “copy to Home Screen”? It’s literally been an option since iOS 1.
kergonath 3y ago
I find it much easier to install a web app from the website than having to find anything on the App Store. There’s nothing easier, it’s only 2 taps when browsing the website, at least on Safari. The process is exactly the same as in iPhoneOS 1.0, when this was the only official way to get applications. The problem is not that it’s difficult, it’s that the share sheet got bloated and should be completely rethought.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I disagree, at least on the Android side of things (Apple has long been hostile to PWAs). Installing a PWA from a website is trivially easy on Android, it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Also, Google has made in much easier in recent years to submit plain PWAs to the Play Store: https://youtu.be/ddbHp8tGBwQ https://youtu.be/ddbHp8tGBwQ

IshKebab 3y ago
> it's just that most users really have separated in their minds (not surprising due to history) that apps come from app stores, and the browser is used for websites. Right, because for a very long time (and maybe still) PWAs have been much closer to terrible websites than good apps. They generally don't have the same UX properties as real apps. Remember when the iPhone first came out and web apps were the only option and they sucked balls? That never really changed. People still find mobile sites with maps that are impossible to use. They don't expect that from app store apps. And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient?
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  > And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient? Really? You don't understand the value in having the PWA appear as a native app icon alongside everything else on the device?
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    You can do that with a link. Just click the three dots then "Add to home screen".
    - gnum4n 3y ago
      Yes, "Add to home screen" is exactly how you install a PWA to your phone =) It's a bit confusing, isn't it? "Add to home screen" makes it seem like you're just adding a link, but it's installing the PWA, possibly enabling notifications, and etc.
    - arcanemachiner 3y ago
      [flagged]
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > And if it's just a web site, why do you need to "install" it? A link is surely sufficient? The point is that there are apps that can pretty much be built entirely using web technologies as PWAs, but in doing so they are no longer "just web sites" and they need functionality of installed apps, like notifications. For example, most banking apps on Android could be entirely rewritten as PWAs, but they'd need to make use of things like notifications (I don't want a random website sending me notifications, but I DO want notifications of activity on my bank account) and camera APIs (e.g. for mobile check deposit).
  - janosdebugs 3y ago
    Both of these features are available in browsers these days.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Well, obviously all the features that are available to PWAs are available in browsers - a browser is the thing that executes a PWA to begin with. It basically is just a difference in use case and how most people thing about "apps" vs. "websites". If I have a long term relationship with a business, and I access its functionality frequently, I'd rather have it as an app on my homescreen.
    - anders_p 3y ago
      You might as well be arguing that people could just go to the bank instead of using technology. There are benefits to having something installed. You can give anything installed the ability to send notifications. Having to manage that permission on a per-website basis is way above the tech ability of most users. But this is apparently difficult for "tech literate" people to grasp.
  - astrange 3y ago
    I find bank apps to be the least flexible about notifications; there's no way to get them to use app notifications for a lot of things they insist on using email and/or SMS for. The last thing being the worst as SMS 2FA is so insecure, but SMS of your bank deposits isn't much better.
- holoduke 3y ago
  But nowadays you can't really see the difference between good webapps and native apps. We also migrated our native apps to full SPA apps. And really it makes development so much easier. The apps we have are relatively simple without fancy stuff. But the css render engine is fast. Even on Android. And we reduced some of our apps from 30mbs of java code to 150kb of java/typescript. Plus as a bonus we can have a website and serve ios as well. For us there is really no reason to go back. Sidenote: some parts of the app are still native. Ads, Auth and analytics
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Thanks for posting, I think this is a great point. Web tech has advanced to the point that a large swath of apps can be implemented as PWAs with no loss of experience (though last I checked iOS was still holding things back). This isn't true for all apps, but with the notable exception of games, I'd say it applies to most: banking/finance apps, social media apps, travel/airline/booking apps, etc.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > Ads, Auth and analytics So two of the three parts that are native are there to make it a worse user experience?
    - anders_p 3y ago
      If you seriously think analytics makes for a worse user experience, then you're speaking out of ignorance. Analytics tell developers exactly where bugs and crashes occur. And on which devices or versions of the OS the problem is. Without analytics it would take weeks/months to figure out exactly what line of code is causing the issue. Heck, the developers might NEVER KNOW that the software has an issue. Apps would just keep crashing on users for years. And developers would have no idea why users were abandoning their product. Nobody that has any idea what they're talking about would say that analytics makes for a worse user experience.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
- lrem 3y ago
  Just looking through the apps I currently have open… Bank app, chat app, maps, Tile, YouTube and a weather app. Only one of them is actually doing anything that wouldn’t fit a PWA. So why are they apps, not a collection of links?
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    I would say only the weather and bank apps would be really equal as a PWA. Maps require complex gestures and advanced graphics and UIs that would never work well as a PWA. Try maps.google.com. Its nothing like the Google Maps app. Plus Android Auto integration. Tile probably needs pretty deep Bluetooth integration and background processing that the web doesn't provide. YouTube can do things like PiP that you can't do on the web.
    - spion 3y ago
      PiP, the one feature of youtube that I did not want (in the majority of cases) but got anyway. edit: Sorry for the snark. I think that maps are probably doable with pointer events (https://caniuse.com/?search=pointer https://caniuse.com/?search=pointer) and Android is doing pretty well in terms of Web Bluetooth https://github.com/WebBluetoothCG/web-bluetooth/blob/main/implementation-status.md#chrome https://github.com/WebBluetoothCG/web-bluetooth/blob/main/im...
      - mk12345 3y ago
        Good points. Additionally, PiP is also possible in most browsers. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Picture-in-Picture_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Picture-in-...
    - c-hendricks 3y ago
      I use YouTube in a browser on my phone specifically because it has PiP without having to pay Google monthly for the privilege. If I request the Desktop version of YouTube, where Google doesn't hide their own Mini player button, the video continues to play in the corner. Mapbox.js is also pretty capable. Not really sure what you're on about TBH.
BaseballPhysics 3y ago
On Android you have to pop open a menu and find the install option. That's not inherently discoverable as you need to know it's even possible, and most people don't. It would be trivial to present the user with a more proactive notification that a site can be installed as an app, or even include such a notice in their search results on Google, but they choose not to do so.
- jarm0 3y ago
  Actually nowadays it's not that bad anymore. Android browser itself offers installable PWA and there is an event called beforeinstallprompt event (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/beforeinstallprompt_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/befo...), which can be used to perform PWA installation on user interaction. Of course it's not supported in every browser. iOS is more difficult since user needs to understand that "saving to home screen" is same as installing "app" and there's no way to trigger it programmatically or help user in any other way than with visual illustrations.
  - callalex 3y ago
    In iOS it’s also buried deep in the “share” menu which makes absolutely no sense as you are not sharing the website with anybody.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      That menu does far more than share, such as opening the URL or document or whatever you are viewing in a different app or saving it somewhere.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      How is it buried when it’s on the same level as everything else?
      - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
        Because it doesn't make sense that it's part of the web share functionality to begin with. The native share dialog is about "I have this piece of content, now share it with one of these other apps", e.g. saving a document locally, or sending it with AirDrop, or saving to Google Drive, or sending as an email attachment, etc. Installing a site as an app on your homescreen has absolutely nothing to do with sharing content to begin with.
streptomycin 3y ago
I have some PWAs in the Play Store via that method. I also got this same Android API update email and had to jump through various hoops to update them all. I wish I could list an actual PWA (like a URL to a website) in the Play Store and then never have to worry about Android API version updates, since I'm literally not using any Android-specific features.
- harshitaneja 3y ago
  Couldn't this be automated as a github action and run on a fixed schedule or triggered by policy update email?
8note 3y ago
I just have no desire to have an app. The attempt to download one when I visit a website is unwelcome.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  That's what's pretty great about PWAs: 1. For people like you that don't want to install them, they're just a normal website. 2. For people that do want to install them for the added functionality (things like notifications), then it is easy to install, and furthermore cheaper for developers to build and maintain (one codebase instead of multiple). You say "you have no desire to have an app", but I think for most people that's really dependent on the site/application. Yeah, for any site I just have a short term or infrequent transaction, I don't want an app either. But many/most people use apps for businesses they have long term relationships with (namely financial institutions).
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And web apps are always a worse experience. Even with simple things that should be a decent experience like the Papa John’s pizza app or AirBnb
    - cxr 3y ago
      That's not always because of anything intrinsic to the Web. We know that ordering a pizza isn't any more complicated than what can be represented on a paper form. Forms can also be capably represented in a browser. The problem is that app developers are by and large not capable of distilling the requirements down to what is necessary and sufficient for the task at hand. Instead, they're foolishly preoccupied with what they consider to be the mandate to deliver experiences. In short: most devs' simulacra suck.
    - e12e 3y ago
      > And web apps are always a worse experience. Check out: https://timetable.fusion-festival.de/ https://timetable.fusion-festival.de/
mort96 3y ago
On iOS you click share -> add to home screen. How much easier can it really be on Android?
vimbtw 3y ago
iOS allows for installing a website as an app. You can install PWAs without ever using the App Store.

zodester 3y ago

On iOS PWA installation is hidden under the share sheet but is easier in terms of accounts as you don't need an Apple ID signed into the App Store.

scarface_74 3y ago

You mean - click on the share button and “copy to Home Screen”? It’s literally been an option since iOS 1.

kergonath 3y ago

I find it much easier to install a web app from the website than having to find anything on the App Store. There’s nothing easier, it’s only 2 taps when browsing the website, at least on Safari. The process is exactly the same as in iPhoneOS 1.0, when this was the only official way to get applications. The problem is not that it’s difficult, it’s that the share sheet got bloated and should be completely rethought.