4 ms·

I thought exactly the opposite. Why keep all the old clutter around just for some edge cases that can easily be resolved by virtualization?

by planb 3y ago

ant6n 3y ago
Because lot of recent desktop linux adoption is being driven by Steam and its huge library of Linux-compatible games. I wonder though, whether with GeForce (etc), streaming games from the cloud, the local OS becomes even less important after all. Even a MacBook could be a decent gaming laptop (the hardware is already a superb gaming laptop, just apple keeps the software crippled).
jeroenhd 3y ago
If Steam doesn't work on Ubuntu, Ubuntu may as well kill off what remains of their consumer desktop product. Barely anyone uses Linux at all, and 9f the few people that do a significant amount of people like to play a video game on their computers every once in a while. Based on the Steam hardware survey and the number of Steam users, I'd estimate about 8 million people would suddenly lose the ability to play games. Many of them would go back to Windows. Others would move to another Linux distro. Either way, Ubuntu would make a lot of people mad.
- ungamedplayer 3y ago
  ]barely anyone uses Linux at all The steam console runs Linux. Android runs a Linux.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    It was clear from the context that he was talking about traditional Linux desktops with Gnome, KDE etc; not systems that happen to use the Linux kernel as a base but are otherwise completely different. (That's the case for Android at least; I'm not sure about the Steam Deck.) Android could swap out Linux for some other kernel (e.g. Fuchsia) relatively easily and users wouldn't notice. Google already did that with the Nest Hub.
    - cesarb 3y ago
      > (That's the case for Android at least; I'm not sure about the Steam Deck.) AFAIK, the Steam Deck is a traditional Linux desktop (KDE), which automatically runs the Steam launcher (in full-screen Big Picture mode) by default (but you can easily exit it and go back to the normal desktop if you want).
    - ungamedplayer 3y ago
      I would love to see another competitor, but fuchsia is not there yet. It is simpler for when you have minimal hardware, but phones are no longer minimal.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    Fair enough, Android has actual market share. It's rarely considered "Linux" in this context though. The Steam Deck is a device serving a few million in a market of billions. The Switch outsold the Deck ten to one, with the Switch being an old console and the Deck in its release year. Even with Steam Deck included in the survey, about 2% of Steam users (which is a subset of the gaming market) use Linux.
- grey_earthling 3y ago
  Steam works out-of-the-box in Fedora Silverblue, via Flathub. Ubuntu avoids Flatpak for strategic reasons, which is a valid choice that might make sense for developers, but it also makes Ubuntu less easy-to-use for people who just want to use their computer.
  - simion314 3y ago
    >Ubuntu avoids Flatpak for strategic reasons, Is flatpack still Desktop focused , depends on desktop session or changed recently? It this still holds true then your claim is bullshit, snap is a more powerful tool because I could setup CLI programs on a server without a desktop session. From flatpack FAQ I still see >Flatpak is designed to run inside a desktop session and relies on certain session services, such as a D-Bus session bus and, optionally, a systemd --user instance. This makes Flatpak not a good match for a server.
    - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
      Meh, why not use Docker for that?
      - simion314 3y ago
        Between a docker or a snap I prefer snap, something simple to package a simple snap.
        curt15 3y ago
        Whether it is easier to package for snap is debatable. Building docker images is a much more widespread and well established workflow.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    What solution does Flatpak provide, other than the fact the x86 files are now in a special hidden directory? Someone still needs to build all the 32 bit dependencies for org.freedesktop.Platform.Compat.i386. I suppose Ubuntu could stop packaging these files if they distributed all 32 bit software over snap or Flatpak, but I don't think this solves as many problems as removing x86 multiarch would create.
- fweimer 3y ago
  I thought that most games run under Proton? Wouldn't Proton eventually adopt WoW64, eliminating the need for 32-bit executables on the host? https://www.winehq.org/announce/8.0 https://www.winehq.org/announce/8.0 (Threads on x86-64 Linux can freely switch between 32-bit and 64-bit mode.)
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    Wine is making excellent progress, but you still need specific versions of Proton/Wine for specific applications and games. I don't think we'll be free of 32 bit libraries just yet. It'll happen eventually, but I think we've still got a few years of multiarch ahead of us.
Pesthuf 3y ago
Desktop linux has finally found a niche where it can actually compete with Windows - gaming - and the first thing distro developers and some users demand is changes that will make it much worse for that purpose. Require more hoops to jump through. Reduce compatibility. Reduce performance. All for the sake of "muh purity". There is some serious aversion to providing users what they want in the Linux world.
- varelse 3y ago
  [dead]

I thought exactly the opposite. Why keep all the old clutter around just for some edge cases that can easily be resolved by virtualization?

by planb 3y ago

I thought exactly the opposite. Why keep all the old clutter around just for some edge cases that can easily be resolved by virtualization?

ant6n 3y ago

Because lot of recent desktop linux adoption is being driven by Steam and its huge library of Linux-compatible games. I wonder though, whether with GeForce (etc), streaming games from the cloud, the local OS becomes even less important after all. Even a MacBook could be a decent gaming laptop (the hardware is already a superb gaming laptop, just apple keeps the software crippled).

jeroenhd 3y ago

If Steam doesn't work on Ubuntu, Ubuntu may as well kill off what remains of their consumer desktop product. Barely anyone uses Linux at all, and 9f the few people that do a significant amount of people like to play a video game on their computers every once in a while. Based on the Steam hardware survey and the number of Steam users, I'd estimate about 8 million people would suddenly lose the ability to play games. Many of them would go back to Windows. Others would move to another Linux distro. Either way, Ubuntu would make a lot of people mad.

ungamedplayer 3y ago
]barely anyone uses Linux at all The steam console runs Linux. Android runs a Linux.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  It was clear from the context that he was talking about traditional Linux desktops with Gnome, KDE etc; not systems that happen to use the Linux kernel as a base but are otherwise completely different. (That's the case for Android at least; I'm not sure about the Steam Deck.) Android could swap out Linux for some other kernel (e.g. Fuchsia) relatively easily and users wouldn't notice. Google already did that with the Nest Hub.
  - cesarb 3y ago
    > (That's the case for Android at least; I'm not sure about the Steam Deck.) AFAIK, the Steam Deck is a traditional Linux desktop (KDE), which automatically runs the Steam launcher (in full-screen Big Picture mode) by default (but you can easily exit it and go back to the normal desktop if you want).
  - ungamedplayer 3y ago
    I would love to see another competitor, but fuchsia is not there yet. It is simpler for when you have minimal hardware, but phones are no longer minimal.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Fair enough, Android has actual market share. It's rarely considered "Linux" in this context though. The Steam Deck is a device serving a few million in a market of billions. The Switch outsold the Deck ten to one, with the Switch being an old console and the Deck in its release year. Even with Steam Deck included in the survey, about 2% of Steam users (which is a subset of the gaming market) use Linux.
grey_earthling 3y ago
Steam works out-of-the-box in Fedora Silverblue, via Flathub. Ubuntu avoids Flatpak for strategic reasons, which is a valid choice that might make sense for developers, but it also makes Ubuntu less easy-to-use for people who just want to use their computer.
- simion314 3y ago
  >Ubuntu avoids Flatpak for strategic reasons, Is flatpack still Desktop focused , depends on desktop session or changed recently? It this still holds true then your claim is bullshit, snap is a more powerful tool because I could setup CLI programs on a server without a desktop session. From flatpack FAQ I still see >Flatpak is designed to run inside a desktop session and relies on certain session services, such as a D-Bus session bus and, optionally, a systemd --user instance. This makes Flatpak not a good match for a server.
  - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
    Meh, why not use Docker for that?
    - simion314 3y ago
      Between a docker or a snap I prefer snap, something simple to package a simple snap.
      - curt15 3y ago
        Whether it is easier to package for snap is debatable. Building docker images is a much more widespread and well established workflow.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  What solution does Flatpak provide, other than the fact the x86 files are now in a special hidden directory? Someone still needs to build all the 32 bit dependencies for org.freedesktop.Platform.Compat.i386. I suppose Ubuntu could stop packaging these files if they distributed all 32 bit software over snap or Flatpak, but I don't think this solves as many problems as removing x86 multiarch would create.
fweimer 3y ago
I thought that most games run under Proton? Wouldn't Proton eventually adopt WoW64, eliminating the need for 32-bit executables on the host? https://www.winehq.org/announce/8.0 https://www.winehq.org/announce/8.0 (Threads on x86-64 Linux can freely switch between 32-bit and 64-bit mode.)
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Wine is making excellent progress, but you still need specific versions of Proton/Wine for specific applications and games. I don't think we'll be free of 32 bit libraries just yet. It'll happen eventually, but I think we've still got a few years of multiarch ahead of us.

Pesthuf 3y ago

Desktop linux has finally found a niche where it can actually compete with Windows - gaming - and the first thing distro developers and some users demand is changes that will make it much worse for that purpose. Require more hoops to jump through. Reduce compatibility. Reduce performance. All for the sake of "muh purity". There is some serious aversion to providing users what they want in the Linux world.

varelse 3y ago
[dead]