8 ms·

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit i

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for health issues. Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money. Also, the government even pays for certain courses so I can find employment again. The social system in Europe is amazing.

quonn 3y ago
Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.
- Teever 3y ago
  Tuiton in France is $500-600 USD/year for any European citizen. And degrees are only 3 years in France.
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    > And degrees are only 3 years in France. Uh, no, France follows the European-wide bachelor's master's doctorate system when it comes to granting european credits. Which means that, yes, you can follow the normal cycle of 3 years (license/bachelor's), 5 years (masters), 7 years (doctorage), and these will basically count if you're looking to study abroad. Some of my coworkers have 2 years of studies (IUT/BTS). Some have 4 (M1). Some of the PhDs in my company have 9 years, other 11, others are both working and researching at the same time. There's no mandatory 3 years.
    - Teever 3y ago
      I'm not sure how anything you said refutes what I said. Can you clarify?
  - dfawcus 3y ago
    European citizen, or EU citizen?
    - Teever 3y ago
      I think European Citizen, it's been a while since I checked but they specifically mentioned Swiss citizens in the documents that I read.
- ubercore 3y ago
  How so? Isn't this quite dependent on country? As far as I understand here in Norway, there are no costs associated with University.
- Etheryte 3y ago
  Higher education is free in many EU countries, you often only have to pay if you want to study abroad. The ones that are not free aren't anywhere near as expensive as you describe.
- tommek4077 3y ago
  BS.
  - quonn 3y ago
    Some sources: 35.000-45.000 for the Bachelor alone. https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherungen/kredit-schulden-insolvenz/studium-der-kinder-finanzieren-frueh-vorsorgen-lange-profitieren-44028 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge... (Verbraucherzentrale, semi-public consumer protection agency) 10.000 per year: https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-mohr/was-kostet-ein-studium-17451124.html https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-m... (one of the top quality newspapers in Germany) 36.000 und 75.000 per child: https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studienkosten.html https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studien... (Sparkasse, pretty much the largest credit union) Up to 133.000 (1851 per month): https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/ https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/ But sure, believe what you want.
    - tommek4077 3y ago
      You are mixing live costs with tution costs. That way even jobs are costing you money. So it stays: BS
- badpun 3y ago
  Depends on the country. All public universities (and these are the best ones) in Poland are free, for example.
- rpadovani 3y ago
  Uhm, what? If you live with your parents, and the university is free, where does that number come from? And if you don't live with your parents, you live with others students, spending 600-1000 euro month for living, how do you reach that numbers?
  - quonn 3y ago
    Bachelor + Masters is 10 semesters usually. 1000 * 12 * 5 = 60.000. Well in the range that I quoted. And depending on the city the actual costs can be more.
    - rpadovani 3y ago
      Ah, but then your first comment is highly misleading, because when you talk number, readers assume cost per year. You are basically saying that living in Europe in a university city cost anything between 6000 and 20000 euros each year. Maybe a bit high, but I think I can agree. But living is a cost all around the world, and universities in Europe add a very low overhead on top of it, while universities in US can easily triple your cost of living, so I still don't see your point
      - quonn 3y ago
        Really? I never thought that could possibly be interpreted as cost per year. I can clarify that. My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter. And without even a shred of doubt, a US tech salary of supposedly around 150k compared to perhaps 80k in Germany more than balances the extra costs for university over a time of 20 years that the kids grow up.
        thfuran 3y ago
        >Really? I never thought that could possibly be interpreted as cost per year. I can clarify that Well, 30k-100k is about right for the annual cost of undergrad in the US and school costs are much more commonly discussed as per year than in total around here. >My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter. That seems a bit misleading as well. Almost all of that cost is unrelated to university attendance. People incur costs for food and rent regardless of whether they're university students.
- Aromasin 3y ago
  Places like the Netherlands and Switzerland generally pay around €2k a year for all students. The only place I know of anywhere near that price is the UK.
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    That would be England and Wales. The countries of the UK have different education systems.
- lqet 3y ago
  What? My parents send me the child allowance ("Kindergeld") they received for me for the 6 years I was at university, plus 100 EUR/month. I also had a regular job earning 450 EUR per month, so I had around 700-800 EUR of income per month with a 240 EUR rent. Tuition was 500 EUR per semester, so around 80 EUR/month. I was health insured for free via the insurance of my parents. I had around 300-400 EUR per month for food, electricity, and internet, which was more than enough for a single nerd. I financed vacations etc. via freelance work and savings from jobs I had when I was in school and my civil service. This was in Germany from 2008 to 2014. Overall, I estimate that my university education cost my parents around 7000 EUR. And this wasn't even educational costs, but mostly living expenses.
  - quonn 3y ago
    Here is a realistic estimate for Munich. A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000. Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300. The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month. There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc. Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me. Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive. And by law your parents have to pay. You are not required to even work. On average parents are required to finance housing and food with 930 per month. Source: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherungen/kredit-schulden-insolvenz/unterhalt-fuer-die-ausbildung-eltern-haben-unterhaltspflicht-44030 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge...
    - maccard 3y ago
      Your comparison is completely wrong. Not getting into specifics of rental prices, or student eating/socialising habits, > Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me This is the number people talk about when they're talking about tuition costs for Americans. Everyone needs shelter and to eat, whether they're a student or an engineer at a FAANG. It's $5-10k fo r community college depending on in or out of state. It's $10-$20k per year for a university for most, and if you look at a "top" university, it's significantly more. University of Boulder which is a top-50-USA-university is just shy of $40k per year for tuition. Stanford is $55k, and UPenn (Which was the most expensive I could find) is $61k per year.
- nevon 3y ago
  There's no single policy that applies in all European countries. In a lot of countries there's no tuition fee (I live in one of them and went to university here), in some there's a token fee per year (a few hundred euros), and in some others students have to be fairly substantial tuition fees. Nothing close to the numbers you're quoting though. $10-20k per year is the highest I've ever heard of for public universities in Europe.
  - quonn 3y ago
    As I said in my comment it has nothing to do with tuition fees.
    - nevon 3y ago
      Then what exactly is your point? That people require money to live? My parents spent exactly $0 on my education, as every student gets a grant of around €3000/m, and you can get a low interest student loan for the rest.
      - quonn 3y ago
        Which country? I should have clarified that I‘m talking about Germany which is certainly part of Europe. And for sure nobody here gets 3000 per month. In Germany students receive no grant (other than the regular Kindergeld for children) unless their parents together earn less than 40k before taxes.
        nevon 3y ago
        Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to write €300/m. Just looked up the numbers, and the exact amount is €360/m as a subsidy, and up to another €700/m in a low-interest loan (0.59%). This is in Sweden.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    in austria the tuition fee for foreigners was (or is if they haven't changed it) dependent on how much an austrian student would pay for tuition in that foreign country.
- n_ary 3y ago
  > edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. I am also there and I didn't pay any monies anywhere for university(unless you mean fancy private university?). All state universities are free and we only paid some misely amount every 6 months for the city-ticket(free access to all public transport in the city, cool stuff). Also, state pays each child ~125/month until they are 25. I believe you are in some different parallel universe entirely O.o
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    I'm sure that the GP comment referred to total costs, not just tuition. Cost of living in a German city for 5-6 years can definitely add up to 30k-100k. Note that the costs of attendance typically cited by US schools similarly include cost of living, e.g. housing and meals (e.g. [0]). [0] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-attendance/annual-student-budget/ https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten...
  - quonn 3y ago
    Good for you. I paid around 70 per month and it only covered the subway network between my apartment and the university. Or whole network for 85. That‘s not exactly cheap.
    - rpadovani 3y ago
      Beginning 2013, there is the semester tickets for students, which is twenty euros per month. Before that, 70 euros? Where were you living, Freising? Two external rings were around 50 euros at the time, and many students rent inside the (old) 4 inner rings, or the first external one if you study in Garching
      - quonn 3y ago
        Munich. And TUM is at Garching. And I paid 70. I know what I paid. It was 70 every month, year after year.
        3y ago
- morelisp 3y ago
  By your logic then this is also "the cost of having a job." Nobody discusses costs like this.
  - quonn 3y ago
    If you are a parent you need to save this money and pay it. Some students sue their parents for that every year in Germany (most know they have an obligation). Google it. For the family this is a real cost.
- bjelkeman-again 3y ago
  In Sweden you get a student loan and a grant to pay for housing, food, transport etc from CSN. [1] The grant is about 1/3 of the total sum. I studied at university and my parents paid nothing. Even as an adult student could I go back and get the grant part. In Sweden the state pays for you to study. [1] https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loans-for-studies-in-sweden.html#h-Sizeofgrantsandloansyoucanreceive https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loan...
  - paulmd 3y ago
    And this is in fact a good thing because the state benefits from higher tax revenue as a result of a skilled workforce. The American obsession with making children pay their own way for everything is counterproductive at a social level and frankly revealing (and sickening) in terms of what it says about us as a people. God forbid someone (a literal child!) “gets something for nothing”. This is really the core problem with America: a significant chunk of the population is literally mean and cruel and antisocial, in the sense that they oppose the idea of helping others as a concept in itself. People will search for reasons to justify their inherent belief that it should not be done. In fact in many cases they will actively promote cruel and counterproductive policies because it makes them feel better! And as a result there's really not a single social system in america that is not rotted to the core even if it exists. Social Security is an insane mess to be on. Programs like food stamps are thrown to the states who underfund them in the best of cases, and in many times actually sabotage or deliberately shrink them, even when it results in receiving less money for the programs. That's the goal!
nxm 3y ago
Salaries are lower and taxes are significantly higher. Take your pick, but I’d rather take the American approach of a more dynamic job market. I wouldn’t want to deal with low GDP growth, public strikes (see France) and little ability to build wealth.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Anything but low GDP growth, the horror.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  What are your personal challenges in dealing with low GDP growth? I myself have found no need to deal with low GDP growth when it is happening. Now what I wouldn't like to deal with is with lack of paid holidays, having to deal with masses of insurance paperwork and co-payments in case I need healthcare assistance, or deal with running out of sick days over the course of a year if I'm unlucky. I suppose with enough wealth I wouldn't need to worry about the problems above, but I believe very few Americans have succeeded in that regard under their system. So, I prefer to stick to the generally European approach of protecting the basic rights and wellbeing of all our citizens, and will strike to defend it if necessary.
- pydry 3y ago
  I think this is what John Steinbeck meant by a working class that sees itself as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  > public strikes (see France) You mean the ones that are getting ignored and violently repressed with police behavior that Iran considers overly violent ? Don't worry, we're getting to the American approach of a job market: work, or die. > little ability to build wealth. France is the third country in the world with the most millionaires.
- lordnacho 3y ago
  It seems like Europe is optimized lower-percentile outcomes, whereas the US is optimized for things going smoothly. In the US if things go as planned, you have a house, two cars, health insurance, and you can pay for college for your kids. If they don't go well you can be in real trouble depending on what exactly went wrong. In Europe if they don't go as planned, you still have access to housing and healthcare, and your kids can still get a degree. If things go as planned, you are paying for the people who weren't so lucky.
emptysongglass 3y ago
Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age, which is increasing. Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant. These are not things to be celebrated.
- orwin 3y ago
  We not only have a better life expectancy (6years for men?), we also have a better 'good health' expectancy. Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. It's 2011 all over again, when we heard all sort of 'southern Europeans are lazy/corrupt' and other shit. I even bought it like a good child. No. Southern Europeans economies used to depend a lot on north sea and Sahara oil and gas, and the reserves (and production) started declining in 2008 and 2010 respectively. Only oil producers, Russian clients and 'nuclear-based' economies managed to avoid crisis. What is funny now that everybody speak about how Germany economy is in crisis. Well yeah. Same causes, same consequences. I really don't see how it seems no one gets it. I understand politics wanting to grandstand and explain how growth is caused their policies, but I mean, the data is available. And we have panda. Look at oil import data from Italy then look at growth, from 2010 to 2012,its obvious one of the two is driving the other. Check the other 'PIGS', it's the same.
  - pleoxy 3y ago
    > Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. I can't think of an area of the economy anywhere that is more policy based than energy.
    - orwin 3y ago
      Electricity is 50% of the energy France use. That is policy-based, maybe. hydro is maxed out, we can't install more renewable because producers in Asia are at capacity. The only part we really control is nuclear power. So 30% of French energy depends on policy. Area more depending on policy: construction, food production, Healthcare, education, military.
throw0101b 3y ago
> Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money. Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. European countries have some of the highest (youth) unemployment rates in the OECD: * https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm * https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-updated-june-2023.htm https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-upda...
- janosdebugs 3y ago
  In Austria AFAIK one can get fired without cause, but if I'm reading this correctly, there doesn't seem to be a massive difference in unemployment against the EU baseline. (Am I reading this right?)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    That part is true, in Austria and afaik in Switzerland and Denmark too, you don't need a reason to fire someone. You just give them their notice period whenever you feel like it and you're done with them, no need to PIP them or look for reasons to let them go.
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
  > Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. This is not entirely true. They are more considerate in hiring which means layoffs, including mass layoffs, happen more rarely as they have consequences. But they can fire people (and they do) when things go bad. This is one of most common reasons for firing people. What they cannot do is to fire me today and tomorrow hire someone else to exactly the same things that I was doing unless I was doing something wrong and they justify it.
  - flashgordon 3y ago
    Talent in Australia etc is just as awesome and doesn't burn itself out while being productive. Having sane and "fair" working conditions goes a long way. I was having a conversation with a senior director about 5 years ago about why not opening an office in Sydney. Plus points being high levels of professionalism and reasonable TC (stock comp being unheard off at the time). His retort was well if stock is not there people won't be incentivized. For folks talking about meaning and impact I was shocked how he couldn't fathom the idea that may be people just wanna do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay! Oh well
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
In which country?

quonn 3y ago

Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.

Teever 3y ago
Tuiton in France is $500-600 USD/year for any European citizen. And degrees are only 3 years in France.
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  > And degrees are only 3 years in France. Uh, no, France follows the European-wide bachelor's master's doctorate system when it comes to granting european credits. Which means that, yes, you can follow the normal cycle of 3 years (license/bachelor's), 5 years (masters), 7 years (doctorage), and these will basically count if you're looking to study abroad. Some of my coworkers have 2 years of studies (IUT/BTS). Some have 4 (M1). Some of the PhDs in my company have 9 years, other 11, others are both working and researching at the same time. There's no mandatory 3 years.
  - Teever 3y ago
    I'm not sure how anything you said refutes what I said. Can you clarify?
- dfawcus 3y ago
  European citizen, or EU citizen?
  - Teever 3y ago
    I think European Citizen, it's been a while since I checked but they specifically mentioned Swiss citizens in the documents that I read.
ubercore 3y ago
How so? Isn't this quite dependent on country? As far as I understand here in Norway, there are no costs associated with University.
Etheryte 3y ago
Higher education is free in many EU countries, you often only have to pay if you want to study abroad. The ones that are not free aren't anywhere near as expensive as you describe.
tommek4077 3y ago
BS.
- quonn 3y ago
  Some sources: 35.000-45.000 for the Bachelor alone. https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherungen/kredit-schulden-insolvenz/studium-der-kinder-finanzieren-frueh-vorsorgen-lange-profitieren-44028 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge... (Verbraucherzentrale, semi-public consumer protection agency) 10.000 per year: https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-mohr/was-kostet-ein-studium-17451124.html https://m.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/frag-den-m... (one of the top quality newspapers in Germany) 36.000 und 75.000 per child: https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studienkosten.html https://www.sparkasse.de/pk/ratgeber/bildung/studium/studien... (Sparkasse, pretty much the largest credit union) Up to 133.000 (1851 per month): https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/ https://www.studis-online.de/studienkosten/ But sure, believe what you want.
  - tommek4077 3y ago
    You are mixing live costs with tution costs. That way even jobs are costing you money. So it stays: BS
badpun 3y ago
Depends on the country. All public universities (and these are the best ones) in Poland are free, for example.
rpadovani 3y ago
Uhm, what? If you live with your parents, and the university is free, where does that number come from? And if you don't live with your parents, you live with others students, spending 600-1000 euro month for living, how do you reach that numbers?
- quonn 3y ago
  Bachelor + Masters is 10 semesters usually. 1000 * 12 * 5 = 60.000. Well in the range that I quoted. And depending on the city the actual costs can be more.
  - rpadovani 3y ago
    Ah, but then your first comment is highly misleading, because when you talk number, readers assume cost per year. You are basically saying that living in Europe in a university city cost anything between 6000 and 20000 euros each year. Maybe a bit high, but I think I can agree. But living is a cost all around the world, and universities in Europe add a very low overhead on top of it, while universities in US can easily triple your cost of living, so I still don't see your point
    - quonn 3y ago
      Really? I never thought that could possibly be interpreted as cost per year. I can clarify that. My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter. And without even a shred of doubt, a US tech salary of supposedly around 150k compared to perhaps 80k in Germany more than balances the extra costs for university over a time of 20 years that the kids grow up.
      - thfuran 3y ago
        >Really? I never thought that could possibly be interpreted as cost per year. I can clarify that Well, 30k-100k is about right for the annual cost of undergrad in the US and school costs are much more commonly discussed as per year than in total around here. >My point is that the statement that salaries can be low because university has no cost is wrong. The cost is significant even without tuition and therefore salaries absolutely matter. That seems a bit misleading as well. Almost all of that cost is unrelated to university attendance. People incur costs for food and rent regardless of whether they're university students.
Aromasin 3y ago
Places like the Netherlands and Switzerland generally pay around €2k a year for all students. The only place I know of anywhere near that price is the UK.
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  That would be England and Wales. The countries of the UK have different education systems.
lqet 3y ago
What? My parents send me the child allowance ("Kindergeld") they received for me for the 6 years I was at university, plus 100 EUR/month. I also had a regular job earning 450 EUR per month, so I had around 700-800 EUR of income per month with a 240 EUR rent. Tuition was 500 EUR per semester, so around 80 EUR/month. I was health insured for free via the insurance of my parents. I had around 300-400 EUR per month for food, electricity, and internet, which was more than enough for a single nerd. I financed vacations etc. via freelance work and savings from jobs I had when I was in school and my civil service. This was in Germany from 2008 to 2014. Overall, I estimate that my university education cost my parents around 7000 EUR. And this wasn't even educational costs, but mostly living expenses.
- quonn 3y ago
  Here is a realistic estimate for Munich. A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000. Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300. The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month. There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc. Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me. Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive. And by law your parents have to pay. You are not required to even work. On average parents are required to finance housing and food with 930 per month. Source: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherungen/kredit-schulden-insolvenz/unterhalt-fuer-die-ausbildung-eltern-haben-unterhaltspflicht-44030 https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/geld-versicherunge...
  - maccard 3y ago
    Your comparison is completely wrong. Not getting into specifics of rental prices, or student eating/socialising habits, > Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me This is the number people talk about when they're talking about tuition costs for Americans. Everyone needs shelter and to eat, whether they're a student or an engineer at a FAANG. It's $5-10k fo r community college depending on in or out of state. It's $10-$20k per year for a university for most, and if you look at a "top" university, it's significantly more. University of Boulder which is a top-50-USA-university is just shy of $40k per year for tuition. Stanford is $55k, and UPenn (Which was the most expensive I could find) is $61k per year.
nevon 3y ago
There's no single policy that applies in all European countries. In a lot of countries there's no tuition fee (I live in one of them and went to university here), in some there's a token fee per year (a few hundred euros), and in some others students have to be fairly substantial tuition fees. Nothing close to the numbers you're quoting though. $10-20k per year is the highest I've ever heard of for public universities in Europe.
- quonn 3y ago
  As I said in my comment it has nothing to do with tuition fees.
  - nevon 3y ago
    Then what exactly is your point? That people require money to live? My parents spent exactly $0 on my education, as every student gets a grant of around €3000/m, and you can get a low interest student loan for the rest.
    - quonn 3y ago
      Which country? I should have clarified that I‘m talking about Germany which is certainly part of Europe. And for sure nobody here gets 3000 per month. In Germany students receive no grant (other than the regular Kindergeld for children) unless their parents together earn less than 40k before taxes.
      - nevon 3y ago
        Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to write €300/m. Just looked up the numbers, and the exact amount is €360/m as a subsidy, and up to another €700/m in a low-interest loan (0.59%). This is in Sweden.
- em-bee 3y ago
  in austria the tuition fee for foreigners was (or is if they haven't changed it) dependent on how much an austrian student would pay for tuition in that foreign country.
n_ary 3y ago
> edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. I am also there and I didn't pay any monies anywhere for university(unless you mean fancy private university?). All state universities are free and we only paid some misely amount every 6 months for the city-ticket(free access to all public transport in the city, cool stuff). Also, state pays each child ~125/month until they are 25. I believe you are in some different parallel universe entirely O.o
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  I'm sure that the GP comment referred to total costs, not just tuition. Cost of living in a German city for 5-6 years can definitely add up to 30k-100k. Note that the costs of attendance typically cited by US schools similarly include cost of living, e.g. housing and meals (e.g. [0]). [0] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-attendance/annual-student-budget/ https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten...
- quonn 3y ago
  Good for you. I paid around 70 per month and it only covered the subway network between my apartment and the university. Or whole network for 85. That‘s not exactly cheap.
  - rpadovani 3y ago
    Beginning 2013, there is the semester tickets for students, which is twenty euros per month. Before that, 70 euros? Where were you living, Freising? Two external rings were around 50 euros at the time, and many students rent inside the (old) 4 inner rings, or the first external one if you study in Garching
    - quonn 3y ago
      Munich. And TUM is at Garching. And I paid 70. I know what I paid. It was 70 every month, year after year.
      - 3y ago
morelisp 3y ago
By your logic then this is also "the cost of having a job." Nobody discusses costs like this.
- quonn 3y ago
  If you are a parent you need to save this money and pay it. Some students sue their parents for that every year in Germany (most know they have an obligation). Google it. For the family this is a real cost.
bjelkeman-again 3y ago
In Sweden you get a student loan and a grant to pay for housing, food, transport etc from CSN. [1] The grant is about 1/3 of the total sum. I studied at university and my parents paid nothing. Even as an adult student could I go back and get the grant part. In Sweden the state pays for you to study. [1] https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loans-for-studies-in-sweden.html#h-Sizeofgrantsandloansyoucanreceive https://www.csn.se/languages/english/student-grants-and-loan...
- paulmd 3y ago
  And this is in fact a good thing because the state benefits from higher tax revenue as a result of a skilled workforce. The American obsession with making children pay their own way for everything is counterproductive at a social level and frankly revealing (and sickening) in terms of what it says about us as a people. God forbid someone (a literal child!) “gets something for nothing”. This is really the core problem with America: a significant chunk of the population is literally mean and cruel and antisocial, in the sense that they oppose the idea of helping others as a concept in itself. People will search for reasons to justify their inherent belief that it should not be done. In fact in many cases they will actively promote cruel and counterproductive policies because it makes them feel better! And as a result there's really not a single social system in america that is not rotted to the core even if it exists. Social Security is an insane mess to be on. Programs like food stamps are thrown to the states who underfund them in the best of cases, and in many times actually sabotage or deliberately shrink them, even when it results in receiving less money for the programs. That's the goal!

nxm 3y ago

Salaries are lower and taxes are significantly higher. Take your pick, but I’d rather take the American approach of a more dynamic job market. I wouldn’t want to deal with low GDP growth, public strikes (see France) and little ability to build wealth.

ChatGTP 3y ago
Anything but low GDP growth, the horror.
Mordisquitos 3y ago
What are your personal challenges in dealing with low GDP growth? I myself have found no need to deal with low GDP growth when it is happening. Now what I wouldn't like to deal with is with lack of paid holidays, having to deal with masses of insurance paperwork and co-payments in case I need healthcare assistance, or deal with running out of sick days over the course of a year if I'm unlucky. I suppose with enough wealth I wouldn't need to worry about the problems above, but I believe very few Americans have succeeded in that regard under their system. So, I prefer to stick to the generally European approach of protecting the basic rights and wellbeing of all our citizens, and will strike to defend it if necessary.
pydry 3y ago
I think this is what John Steinbeck meant by a working class that sees itself as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
ohgodplsno 3y ago
> public strikes (see France) You mean the ones that are getting ignored and violently repressed with police behavior that Iran considers overly violent ? Don't worry, we're getting to the American approach of a job market: work, or die. > little ability to build wealth. France is the third country in the world with the most millionaires.
lordnacho 3y ago
It seems like Europe is optimized lower-percentile outcomes, whereas the US is optimized for things going smoothly. In the US if things go as planned, you have a house, two cars, health insurance, and you can pay for college for your kids. If they don't go well you can be in real trouble depending on what exactly went wrong. In Europe if they don't go as planned, you still have access to housing and healthcare, and your kids can still get a degree. If things go as planned, you are paying for the people who weren't so lucky.

emptysongglass 3y ago

Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age, which is increasing. Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant. These are not things to be celebrated.

orwin 3y ago
We not only have a better life expectancy (6years for men?), we also have a better 'good health' expectancy. Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. It's 2011 all over again, when we heard all sort of 'southern Europeans are lazy/corrupt' and other shit. I even bought it like a good child. No. Southern Europeans economies used to depend a lot on north sea and Sahara oil and gas, and the reserves (and production) started declining in 2008 and 2010 respectively. Only oil producers, Russian clients and 'nuclear-based' economies managed to avoid crisis. What is funny now that everybody speak about how Germany economy is in crisis. Well yeah. Same causes, same consequences. I really don't see how it seems no one gets it. I understand politics wanting to grandstand and explain how growth is caused their policies, but I mean, the data is available. And we have panda. Look at oil import data from Italy then look at growth, from 2010 to 2012,its obvious one of the two is driving the other. Check the other 'PIGS', it's the same.
- pleoxy 3y ago
  > Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. I can't think of an area of the economy anywhere that is more policy based than energy.
  - orwin 3y ago
    Electricity is 50% of the energy France use. That is policy-based, maybe. hydro is maxed out, we can't install more renewable because producers in Asia are at capacity. The only part we really control is nuclear power. So 30% of French energy depends on policy. Area more depending on policy: construction, food production, Healthcare, education, military.

throw0101b 3y ago

> Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money. Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. European countries have some of the highest (youth) unemployment rates in the OECD: * https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm * https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-updated-june-2023.htm https://www.oecd.org/employment/unemployment-rates-oecd-upda...

janosdebugs 3y ago
In Austria AFAIK one can get fired without cause, but if I'm reading this correctly, there doesn't seem to be a massive difference in unemployment against the EU baseline. (Am I reading this right?)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That part is true, in Austria and afaik in Switzerland and Denmark too, you don't need a reason to fire someone. You just give them their notice period whenever you feel like it and you're done with them, no need to PIP them or look for reasons to let them go.
hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
> Which causes companies to be very slow in hiring people, because if business turns they have less flexibility. This is not entirely true. They are more considerate in hiring which means layoffs, including mass layoffs, happen more rarely as they have consequences. But they can fire people (and they do) when things go bad. This is one of most common reasons for firing people. What they cannot do is to fire me today and tomorrow hire someone else to exactly the same things that I was doing unless I was doing something wrong and they justify it.
- flashgordon 3y ago
  Talent in Australia etc is just as awesome and doesn't burn itself out while being productive. Having sane and "fair" working conditions goes a long way. I was having a conversation with a senior director about 5 years ago about why not opening an office in Sydney. Plus points being high levels of professionalism and reasonable TC (stock comp being unheard off at the time). His retort was well if stock is not there people won't be incentivized. For folks talking about meaning and impact I was shocked how he couldn't fathom the idea that may be people just wanna do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay! Oh well

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

In which country?