4 ms·

I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence. The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them. They

I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence. The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them. They are by far one of the most painful parts of factorio for me.

wbl 3y ago
Try logistic train network mod
Aeolun 3y ago
They’re sort of understandable. When someone described it to me as the blue signals checking the status of the next signal (blue or colored) and doing that, everything made a lot more sense. They’re still sometimes hard to debug because there’s no visualization but I always end up feeling that the issue was my fault
- freeone3000 3y ago
  The stuck train is your visualization :P
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  Blue signals just mean that some, but not all, segments ahead are blocked by a signal. Also, this video[1] by Soulless Gaming on "How to Fix Train Path Errors" has a lot of useful tips on train/signal troubleshooting. [1] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsep-xJXkI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsep-xJXkI
xedrac 3y ago
There's certainly a learning curve - it's a form of programming that must be learned.
- mmastrac 3y ago
  .
  - TuringTourist 3y ago
    I would argue that train signalling is not intentionally obfuscated as brainfuck is however. Just a different form of thinking.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      I think it's pretty clear from the blog posts that they tried to make trains as simple as they could, and it's as complex as it is now because that's the simplest it can be without having actual errors and bugs.
moviuro 3y ago
> The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them. Chain signals before an intersection; regular signals after those, and on the track to split the track for multiple trains simultaneously. See: https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Train_signals https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Train_signals if you haven't already.
- drewmate 3y ago
  Another major stumbling block for train signals once you get the basics down is segment length. Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.) I frequently set up tracks with segments as large as my longest train, but then end up having to add an intersection here or there, breaking up segments into smaller sizes. This is the root of most of my train woes (aside from LTN issues, which are a whole other issue!)
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    > Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.) That's what chain signals are for. If a train waiting at a signal causes issues, replace the previous signal with a chain signal to prevent the train from problematically waiting at the signal.
pmoriarty 3y ago
I just use city-block blueprints and never really worry about signals. However, the foolproof advice I've gotten from r/Factorio has been to put chain signals at the entrance and exit to every junction, and to make sure there's enough space for your longest train to stop behind a rail signal (and you wouldn't mind having it stop there). I can also recommend the cybersyn mod (or LTN). Once you understand one of these mods it makes dealing with trains much less of a hassle.
- red_admiral 3y ago
  Not necessarily at the exit. Normal signal: train stops if there's a train in the section ahead (or it's reserved for another train on a conflicting path), otherwise train goes. Chain signal: train stops here until it can get a mutex on a path past another non-chain signal. So if you have rail sections (small letters) and signals (capitals) a - A - b - B - c - C - d in a row on a plain line and A/B are chain signals and C is regular, then trains from the left will stop at A until the train can grab all sections b, c, d in one go. That's why chain signals at the entrance to a junction are good (prevents a train stopping on the junction) but you want regular ones at the exit, at least if some plain line follows.
  - pmoriarty 3y ago
    "Chain in, rail out" is the standard advice. However, if you search around r/Factorio you'll see there's debate about whether that's the best advice for beginners. Chain both in and out is supposedly the foolproof method, and apart from stations, rail signals are just an optimization. Though I've played a lot of Factorio, I've never really felt the need to dive deeply in to signals, and I'm happy to just use the foolproof method and leave more optimized solutions for those who need them.
    - mcv 3y ago
      I prefer to see it as regular signals designate the next segment as a segment where trains are allowed to wait. If you don't want trains to stop in that segment, don't put a regular signal in front of it. And of course you don't want trains stopping on intersections, because they'll block everybody, so you always put chain signals in front of intersections.
guhidalg 3y ago
Repeat after me: "Chain IN, Rail OUT" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDmzFKhPI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDmzFKhPI0 It's basically a visual version of the classic deadlock conditions. Chain signals create dependencies between locks, and the locks themselves (the rail signals) have to be granular enough to keep large sections of the rail network available to acquire. The confusing part about the chain signals is the blue state: the train will use its pathfinding to read forward of the signal and it will move if the path it needs to take is available. You have to look forward of the signal to see if the rail signal for the path the train wants to take is green or not.
oefrha 3y ago
Vanilla trains are absolutely pitiful for megabases, and annoying even for midsized bases. I simply consider LTN part of the base game.
- bombcar 3y ago
  LTN is really nice, but it is "fun" (for some people, like me) to build a LTN-like network in vanilla before using LTN going forward. Once you've "figured it out" it's much easier to drop down "smart stations" instead of building them yourself each time. Just like I recommend players who want to do city blocks build their own blueprints instead of just loading up someone's (even if you later switch to someone's standard blueprint, you'll at least understand the why). And of course, it's a sandbox game! You could just download a completed map, but there's no fun in that.
- polski-g 3y ago
  I switched to Cybersyn, same functionality as LTN but way less complexity setting it up.
dimava 3y ago
The best available explanation, think "20% of things that cover 80% of cases", is DoshDoshington's [Factorio Trains Explained in Less Than Three Minutes](https://youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY https://youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY)
EMM_386 3y ago
> I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence. I had over 500 hours in Factorio before I felt comfortable with signalling. I got so frusturated with it originally I just ignored it as best I could. But the "chain in, rail out" thing as others are mentioning really is the key. It's not always as perfectly simple as that, but it's a very good starting point. You break everything up into blocks ... if you place a chain signal right before an intersection and a rail signal on the way out, you'll be there for most situations. Most. My most complex map has about 50 trains running and all intersecting each other and so far, everything is running smoothly on that one. No trains slamming into each other and everything running efficiently as far as I can tell. Almost all of it is just that "chain in, rail out" thing.
- TylerE 3y ago
  Also; Bidirectional trap is a massive moon trap. Avoid it at all costs.
infogulch 3y ago
If you just want to have trains and move on, I made a complete tiling rail kit a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/i2szgb/tiling_utility_rail_kit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/i2szgb/tiling_uti... > 2-way 6-wide right hand rail system on a global 60-tile grid with interoperable 90° & 45° variants. Intended to be simple, complete, & hard to misuse. > Features: rotational symmetry, red&green wired poles, landfill, blueprints for Through, Turn, Tee, Junction, and U-Turn for both 90° & 45°, 90°/ 45° transition blueprints > Tiling is based on large power poles, 60 is the max distance between 3 poles in a straight line, or 5 poles diagonally. Here's a big example with all the rail components slapped together for a demo: https://i.imgur.com/84P9nO0.png https://i.imgur.com/84P9nO0.png I also made the simplest tiling nuclear blueprint kit: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/gp0jmb/infogulchs_modular_tiling_nuclear_kit_supports/ https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/gp0jmb/infogulchs...
animal531 3y ago
I'm not even sure how many hours I have in the game, but I've never bothered with trains, I just didn't enjoy their gameplay for some reason. Fortunately this is totally fine, you can get by without them.

wbl 3y ago

Try logistic train network mod

Aeolun 3y ago

They’re sort of understandable. When someone described it to me as the blue signals checking the status of the next signal (blue or colored) and doing that, everything made a lot more sense. They’re still sometimes hard to debug because there’s no visualization but I always end up feeling that the issue was my fault

freeone3000 3y ago
The stuck train is your visualization :P
pmoriarty 3y ago
Blue signals just mean that some, but not all, segments ahead are blocked by a signal. Also, this video[1] by Soulless Gaming on "How to Fix Train Path Errors" has a lot of useful tips on train/signal troubleshooting. [1] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsep-xJXkI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsep-xJXkI

xedrac 3y ago

There's certainly a learning curve - it's a form of programming that must be learned.

mmastrac 3y ago
.
- TuringTourist 3y ago
  I would argue that train signalling is not intentionally obfuscated as brainfuck is however. Just a different form of thinking.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I think it's pretty clear from the blog posts that they tried to make trains as simple as they could, and it's as complex as it is now because that's the simplest it can be without having actual errors and bugs.

moviuro 3y ago

> The signals required a lot of patience to learn and I'm not entirely sure I still understand them. Chain signals before an intersection; regular signals after those, and on the track to split the track for multiple trains simultaneously. See: https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Train_signals https://wiki.factorio.com/Tutorial:Train_signals if you haven't already.

drewmate 3y ago
Another major stumbling block for train signals once you get the basics down is segment length. Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.) I frequently set up tracks with segments as large as my longest train, but then end up having to add an intersection here or there, breaking up segments into smaller sizes. This is the root of most of my train woes (aside from LTN issues, which are a whole other issue!)
- jcranmer 3y ago
  > Signals indicate whether the next segment is occupied, not whether any given train will fit in there (and potentially block a segment or intersection behind it.) That's what chain signals are for. If a train waiting at a signal causes issues, replace the previous signal with a chain signal to prevent the train from problematically waiting at the signal.

pmoriarty 3y ago

I just use city-block blueprints and never really worry about signals. However, the foolproof advice I've gotten from r/Factorio has been to put chain signals at the entrance and exit to every junction, and to make sure there's enough space for your longest train to stop behind a rail signal (and you wouldn't mind having it stop there). I can also recommend the cybersyn mod (or LTN). Once you understand one of these mods it makes dealing with trains much less of a hassle.

red_admiral 3y ago
Not necessarily at the exit. Normal signal: train stops if there's a train in the section ahead (or it's reserved for another train on a conflicting path), otherwise train goes. Chain signal: train stops here until it can get a mutex on a path past another non-chain signal. So if you have rail sections (small letters) and signals (capitals) a - A - b - B - c - C - d in a row on a plain line and A/B are chain signals and C is regular, then trains from the left will stop at A until the train can grab all sections b, c, d in one go. That's why chain signals at the entrance to a junction are good (prevents a train stopping on the junction) but you want regular ones at the exit, at least if some plain line follows.
- pmoriarty 3y ago
  "Chain in, rail out" is the standard advice. However, if you search around r/Factorio you'll see there's debate about whether that's the best advice for beginners. Chain both in and out is supposedly the foolproof method, and apart from stations, rail signals are just an optimization. Though I've played a lot of Factorio, I've never really felt the need to dive deeply in to signals, and I'm happy to just use the foolproof method and leave more optimized solutions for those who need them.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I prefer to see it as regular signals designate the next segment as a segment where trains are allowed to wait. If you don't want trains to stop in that segment, don't put a regular signal in front of it. And of course you don't want trains stopping on intersections, because they'll block everybody, so you always put chain signals in front of intersections.

guhidalg 3y ago

Repeat after me: "Chain IN, Rail OUT" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDmzFKhPI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZDmzFKhPI0 It's basically a visual version of the classic deadlock conditions. Chain signals create dependencies between locks, and the locks themselves (the rail signals) have to be granular enough to keep large sections of the rail network available to acquire. The confusing part about the chain signals is the blue state: the train will use its pathfinding to read forward of the signal and it will move if the path it needs to take is available. You have to look forward of the signal to see if the rail signal for the path the train wants to take is green or not.

oefrha 3y ago

Vanilla trains are absolutely pitiful for megabases, and annoying even for midsized bases. I simply consider LTN part of the base game.

bombcar 3y ago
LTN is really nice, but it is "fun" (for some people, like me) to build a LTN-like network in vanilla before using LTN going forward. Once you've "figured it out" it's much easier to drop down "smart stations" instead of building them yourself each time. Just like I recommend players who want to do city blocks build their own blueprints instead of just loading up someone's (even if you later switch to someone's standard blueprint, you'll at least understand the why). And of course, it's a sandbox game! You could just download a completed map, but there's no fun in that.
polski-g 3y ago
I switched to Cybersyn, same functionality as LTN but way less complexity setting it up.

dimava 3y ago

The best available explanation, think "20% of things that cover 80% of cases", is DoshDoshington's [Factorio Trains Explained in Less Than Three Minutes](https://youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY https://youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY)

EMM_386 3y ago

> I wouldn't put trains and smooth in a single sentence. I had over 500 hours in Factorio before I felt comfortable with signalling. I got so frusturated with it originally I just ignored it as best I could. But the "chain in, rail out" thing as others are mentioning really is the key. It's not always as perfectly simple as that, but it's a very good starting point. You break everything up into blocks ... if you place a chain signal right before an intersection and a rail signal on the way out, you'll be there for most situations. Most. My most complex map has about 50 trains running and all intersecting each other and so far, everything is running smoothly on that one. No trains slamming into each other and everything running efficiently as far as I can tell. Almost all of it is just that "chain in, rail out" thing.

TylerE 3y ago
Also; Bidirectional trap is a massive moon trap. Avoid it at all costs.

infogulch 3y ago

If you just want to have trains and move on, I made a complete tiling rail kit a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/i2szgb/tiling_utility_rail_kit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/i2szgb/tiling_uti... > 2-way 6-wide right hand rail system on a global 60-tile grid with interoperable 90° & 45° variants. Intended to be simple, complete, & hard to misuse. > Features: rotational symmetry, red&green wired poles, landfill, blueprints for Through, Turn, Tee, Junction, and U-Turn for both 90° & 45°, 90°/ 45° transition blueprints > Tiling is based on large power poles, 60 is the max distance between 3 poles in a straight line, or 5 poles diagonally. Here's a big example with all the rail components slapped together for a demo: https://i.imgur.com/84P9nO0.png https://i.imgur.com/84P9nO0.png I also made the simplest tiling nuclear blueprint kit: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/gp0jmb/infogulchs_modular_tiling_nuclear_kit_supports/ https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/gp0jmb/infogulchs...

animal531 3y ago

I'm not even sure how many hours I have in the game, but I've never bothered with trains, I just didn't enjoy their gameplay for some reason. Fortunately this is totally fine, you can get by without them.