8 ms·

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in m

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the times has to make this such a volatile work environment especially when one can't 'go home' during off hours. I've also worked in mixed company. Decades ago, I worked in a somewhat crowded building of some hundreds of people. My office was small and in an isolated part of the building and I shared it with three young attractive women who were part of my staff. Whilst I also had male staff they worked in other sections of the building. Working with these women in close quarters was very different to working in an all-male environment which I had been used to previously. I enjoyed their company and we got along well together, and I was always well behaved and there were no complaints about my behavior. In fact, as their superior, they'd gang up and bully me—they ruled the office, not me. Times have changed, there's absolutely no way I would accept working in that situation today as it'd be just too risky. Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions. Sure, women have rights to equality and I'd never deny them that right, but it seems to me that mixed company on a submarine is an 'explosive' environment and it's inevitable there will be trouble. (A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural.) One has to feel some sympathy for all of those submariners.

pbj1968 3y ago
Or you just shut off the lizard brain and don’t think about your coworkers that way.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  It has nothing to do with lizard brain whatsoever. If for some reason I had to take disciplinary action against one of those women and I had good and legitimate reason to do so then I would be at risk of retribution. The chances of me being believed would be negligible. I have always been courteous to coworkers, especially women. Your comment has just validified my point about today's politics. Decades ago no one would have thought in those terms let alone wrongly accused someone of them. Just for clarification's sake, when I mentioned I'd be worried about accidentally saying something out of place I wasn't referring to me making sexual innuendos but rather that these days innocent comment is so easily assumed to be offensive or taken the wrong way. It's why so many of us now simply say nothing, as it's safer to do so. Your hair-trigger assumption again proves my point.
  - mjmsmith 3y ago
    Better to say nothing and risk being thought a lizard brain than to say "A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural", and remove all doubt.
    - hilbert42 3y ago
      Perhaps so, but if I'm not stating facts then what else do we attribute the subsequent trouble to as outlined in those links? What's worse risk of being shot as the messenger or saying nothing and letting situations get more out of hand? I've always preferred the former but as I've witnessed here many prefer to remain silent.
  - nvy 3y ago
    >If for some reason I had to take disciplinary action against one of those women and I had good and legitimate reason to do so then I would be at risk of retribution. Tell me you don't have military experience without telling me you don't have military experience. This statement is patently absurd.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - deanCommie 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hilbert42 3y ago
      "Why be EXTRA courteous to women? Already reveals you think of them as different." Because that's the ways boys were taught by BOTH schools and their parents when I was a kid not only from our youngest age but also it was reinforced throughout highschool until we left. This was sacrosanct value of good behavior in our society until recently. It's a damn shame that you and others like you are not old enough to have a sufficient sense of history to realize the problems and damage you are causing by accusing innocent people like me for having the normal views and values of my society's culture. It is extremely upsetting and unfair that you make such allegations. I'm not responsible for society having turned its values upsidedown in recent years.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Isn’t the “lizard brain” just instinct though? That’s what makes it the lizard brain.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  What you call "lizard brain" is actually normal human physiology and psychology. Expecting adult humans to behave as sexless victorian vulcans, cool creatures of pure rationality and suppressed emotion, is asking quite a lot. People can put on this kind of act for a time, but when the farce slips you shouldn't be surprised. For better or worse, people on these ships are going to have sex (even when it's just men.. don't tell me you've never heard about sailors.)
  - gcheong 3y ago
    Sex is normal - making rape lists and sexual harassment/abuse is not. There’s quite a bit of consensual middle-ground between “sexless Victorian vulcans” and outright sexual harassment/abuse and the latter shouldn’t be tolerated regardless of who it is.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      The suggestion I responded to was that humans turn off their "lizard brain" and to stop thinking about their coworkers in any sort of sexual way. Obviously making "rape lists" is very far over the line and should not be tolerated (who said otherwise?!) but to ban people from even thinking about their coworkers in a sexual way is patently absurd. We're humans, you would have to chemically neuter people to accomplish that goal.
      - gcheong 3y ago
        Fair enough. I agree turning off the lizard brain is impossible so if I misread your comment in this way I apologize. I was more referring to "people are going to have sex when working together, even when just men", which I agree with, but wanted to make the distinction between co-workers hooking up to what was referred to in the article, which wasn't clear to me from your comment.
ABeeSea 3y ago
This comment says more about you than the work environment.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  Read my reply to Angostura.
Angostura 3y ago
[flagged]
- poisonarena 3y ago
  > Possibly something to work on. tacking this on to whatever you are disagreeing with automatically makes me not respect whatever it is you are saying
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Where does he say that?
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Ironically, such malicious interpretations of casual remarks are probably the sort of thing hilbert42 is worried about. Walking defensively on eggshells in the office is one thing, at least at the end of the day you can go home and breath easy, but sealed in a metal tube under the ocean, where you have to guard what you say at all times even in your sleep? No thanks, not for me.
    - hilbert42 3y ago
      Right. I was careful but it was also a friendly office,
    - snypher 3y ago
      It seems to be indicated in the subtext of your wording, even in this comment you stated "eggshells"/"breathe easy"; if your natural behavior does not align with your workplace policy wrt not devaluing someone of the opposite sex, then yes you should seek some behavior modification. Edit; to address the original comment >Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions. Is the implication "such risky conditions" = working with e.g. women?
      - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nonethewiser 3y ago
The dynamic is completely different in mixed company. It used to be common for men and women to attend different universities. In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education [0] and its not really surprising - everyone is more productive and focused. What’s surprising is how we don't realize the effectiveness of single sex education despite research, common sense, and tradition all pointing towards its effectiveness. [0] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1987-02510-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1987-02510-001
- whatshisface 3y ago
  Maybe it's because we don't actually want the human race to go one more generation before dying out. :-)
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Antinatalism is ugly.
- bondarchuk 3y ago
  That study simply looks at the differences between students at single- and mixed-sex schools. There are so many confounders I doubt it can be used to say something meaningful purely about the effects of sex separation. They do (try to) control for some confounders but they are all related to the students' individual backgrounds and none of them related to e.g. the school or the teachers. And the schools are all Catholic.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education What about quality of socialisation, and how they fare later in life in terms of relationships
  - pge 3y ago
    As a graduate of an all-male school, I think the issue you raise is the right one. Our education was second to none, but many years later we openly joke about the social adjustment we went through in college (and later) to compensate for having been in that environment in our formative years
callalex 3y ago
Thanks for sharing this fascinating take on how you experience the world. Personally, as a man, I have never found the need to worry about any of the issues you highlight when interacting with other genders. I wonder what makes our experiences so different?
- phnofive 3y ago
  What do you think makes your experiences so different?
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Could be perhaps generation difference. Many things today considered to be sexism used to be normal fun a few decades ago and perhaps older people can slip into the old behavior if not careful. I'm personally not worried about working in a mixed team, no matter how small the office is. I just keep things professional ... and that's it. Having said that, conditions in a submarine might be different, and office experience might not be applicable.
- darkclouds 3y ago
  I've been accused of groping a woman at staff party when I hadnt. Other colleagues knew my married male manager was having an affair with this single mum and was at it in a room with all the coats. I was asked to go get a coat by a colleague that knew what was going on and I walked in on them so walked straight back out. Monday morning to save face, she accused me of groping her and spread it around the company. I left shortly after that incident, it became untenable to stay on. Women have reputations to uphold, so will often lie to maintain them, laws are in their favour.
  - callalex 3y ago
    Do you habitually generalize the behavior of one lying person to a entire half of the human population?
- pm3003 3y ago
  What hilbert42 says is very relatable to me even if it never got so bad for me. I can't stress enough how everything is different "when one can't 'go home' during off hours". I used to be an enlisted sailor, then an officer. It's sometimes hard to have a few minutes alone in an entire day (night included), especially on smaller or older ships. After a few months any small thing can become a very nasty fight very fast. The word "microagression" suddenly makes a lot of sense. I once got into a fight because some guy thought I had slightly moved his towel that was in front of my bunk. This man had been at sea on the ship for more than 6 month, I had joined mid-tour a month before. I've seen a male-only boat (there were one or two female officers, which was accepted because of the bathroom configuration) get one female enlisted sailor, a talented and very professional young woman. Everything changed in one day. Though submariners are often a bit more mature than others, managing a mixed crew on a small ship is very different. Remember the average age on a military ship is rarely above 25. Sexual harassment is not the hardest, since everyone is with everyone 24/7, most cases are very clear cut. I've seen a few very nasty cases (sexual predator that went undetected for months or year, a guy that wasn't reported despite a suspected rape attempt and went on to assault someone on his next ship under my command, a false rape claim) but it's mostly straightforward to handle. A lot of officers don't close their doors when doing personal review or other one-to-one interviews and conversations with female sailors but the paranoia mostly stops there. Dealing with "regular" harassment, rumours, jealousy etc is way less simple with a mixed crew, regardless of the personal qualities of the people. And of course your management style has to be adapted. When you have more than a few (young) women in a team, you have to lead differently. (Women over 40 are rarely on the "bad" side (when there is a clear one) of those problems). I've seen quite a few of those cases. Sometimes, we've been successful in stopping them before harm gets done, sometimes someone's life was ruined for months or years or people had to be transferred because trust had been broken too deep and some people couldn't work together anymore. And a few cases with legal proceedings (harassment lawsuit etc), but never handled one myself. On a personal note I (male) have had to share a two beds room with a female for a few months. We didn't sleep a lot, and often not at the same time, never had any problems. It was a male-only boat with less than five women. Hope this gives you an impression of what it can be like.
Lio 3y ago
It's interesting that just today The Guardian is running a story praising a new women only living space in London[1], a city where 81% of homeless, rough sleepers are men[2]. This chimes with the view that gender segregation is only seen as a bad thing when it's male only spaces. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have-brothers-sons-lovers-but-they-cant-live-here-the-happy-home-shared-by-26-women https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessness-rough-sleepers-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessne...
- notahacker 3y ago
  Am struggling to see a connection between impoverished rough sleepers and a single expensive apartment development in genteel New Barnet having a covenant that its tenants must be women. I guess women wouldn't have to stretch credulity quite so far to show how male only spaces and defaults impact them...
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    The problem and hypocrisy is that saying "only men allowed" will get you tarred and feathered, while saying "only women allowed" will get you showered with praise about how courageous and bold you are. Now, what was that about gender equality again?
    - defrost 3y ago
      Tarred and feathered? Not in England. Eton (1440-), Harrow (1572), Radley (1847) are all prestige "public" (for very rich well connected 'public') boys-only schools; the jewels in a crown of many more [1] that serve as introductions to a sea of men only clubs that still exist aplenty. With examples of an exclusive to women apartment building, many exclusive to male schools and clubs the only thing demonstrating gender openess in England here is homelessness - which might be dominated by men but still admits women to wander sans roof on the streets. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boys%27_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boys%27_schools_in_the...
littlestymaar 3y ago
> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. Maybe you should accept that you're not a teenager anymore and that there are things that you shouldn't be saying out loud in a professional environment just because you think it's funny, it's not.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  > As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. You seem to have missed his point. It isn't whether his comments are considered desirable. He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. We accept this because the alternative is self-imposed segregation. Which is, again, what they are pointing out. In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > t is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. In some imaginary world maybe, but in practice we have many people with mountains of documented misbehavior still being in charge, so we definitely don't live in that world. First of all, very few women report even blatant misbehavior like groping, forced kisses or even rape, and then there are even fewer HR department that react properly when such reports are raised. The risk of a misunderstanding ending your career is basically null. The risk of ending a woman's career when she reports misconducts is much, much higher. > Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. Insulting your boss will almost always lead to you being fired, threatening a cop will get you legal troubles. Free speech is not absolute, and was never supposed to be. > In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. Then you have a problem when communicating with women, and you should probably spend more time around them to learn. Yes at the beginning this will likely mean that you'd need to weight all your words to avoid saying something inappropriate, but at the end of the day, you'd have learned how to behave > This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding. That's a pretty bad assessment, as men are much more likely to throw you under the bus at the first occasion than women, because rivalries are much more intense between people of the same sex. Being afraid of your women coworker because they could report you is as irrational as being afraid of your neighbors because they could murder your family.
bArray 3y ago
> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. Using banter for high-stress situations is quite a British thing. There's a story I was told about British troops during WWII in wet rat ridden trenches, cold and low on rations, having banter to keep morale high - much to the Americans surprise. I can't liken my situation to theirs (thank goodness), but in a tough spot I was in male only company and we openly discussed who we would eat first, who we would keep around for company, etc. > Times have changed, there's absolutely no way I would accept working in that situation today as it'd be just too risky. Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions. Unfortunately this rings true. > Sure, women have rights to equality and I'd never deny them that right, but it seems to me that mixed company on a submarine is an 'explosive' environment and it's inevitable there will be trouble. (A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural.) Not just that, but if an allegation is made (which is much more likely in this situation) then it's almost impossible to deal with. You can't isolate people from one another, you can't do any real investigation - it just sucks. It's okay saying "believe all women", but I know at least two women now that have used claims of sexual assault because they had cheated on partners and got caught. The accused had the claims dropped against them, but lost their jobs and lives as a result.
- lemper 3y ago
  > Using banter for high-stress situations is quite a British thing. can depth crush rape list be categorised as banter?
  - bArray 3y ago
    > can depth crush rape list be categorised as banter? I imagine from your perspective there is never an acceptable time when such things can be thought, let alone uttered. I understand this, but it's only afforded to idealists. There is a different perspective where you have a large group of people that are experiencing a mixture of extreme emotions (fear, loneliness, anger, regret, etc) and are unable to express them. Sometimes the more extreme the situation, the more extreme the distraction needed. When I was discussing eating my friends - there was no serious plan in place. We had zero intentions of eating each other, and we had never before or never will eat another human (depending on how food inflation goes /s). It was an extreme distraction that broke the ice in a high-stress environment that just got everybody talking. It kept morale up, it did its job.
RalfWausE 3y ago
Granted, i am no submariner, but i wasted some time of my life in the early 00s in the german army. We never had any problems with harassment or anything like that... for one, the women i met there were at least twice as tough as the men in the same unit and had an attitude that let you forget really fast they were from another gender. I never understood there could be any form of problem... though, perhaps the infantry just attracts other kinds of women than more "civilised" forms of duty.
- pm3003 3y ago
  IIRC the German fleet had been traumatized by a series of false sexual assault claims by one or two women in the late 90s. I don't remember the details but it was before women were allowed to serve in every position in 2000/2001.
anonymous_sorry 3y ago
> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place Uh, unless you're in the habit of saying things like "I want to rape her, her and her, lol", it's really not anything to be stressed about. If you make an innocent mistake, someone may tell you about it and you get to learn something. That's it.
- zo1 3y ago
  It's not about raping, wow you have a low opinion of men. It's about the sexual tension, the emotions, jealousy, consensual pairing causing drama, etc. And why is no one asking women if they even want to be in such a spot. I know I'd feel odd if the genders were reversed and it was a very female dominated space that was asking me to be one of the 10% of men quota.
  - anonymous_sorry 3y ago
    > It's not about raping That was a direct reference to the article linked by the grandparent of my original post, regarding bullying suffered by women serving on UK nuclear subs. Someone responded to that with a comment I read as "yeah, working with women can be a minefield". Sorry if it seemed a bit out of the blue. > It's about the sexual tension, the emotions, jealousy, consensual pairing causing drama, etc. Surely this is just part of the human experience. Learning to deal with it is part of growing up. That's not to diminish the difficulty experienced by people going through this stuff, but what's the alternative?
    - aerostable_slug 3y ago
      > what's the alternative? Don't have women on submarines. I mean, that's the alternative whether it's palatable (for any number of reasons) or not. And, as someone in favor of having mixed teams in general, it's admittedly difficult for me to imagine the warfighting advantage of a mixed submarine crew. Anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, reconnaissance, special operations support, land attack, and nuclear deterrence don't seem to have any particular characteristics where the presence of women on the crew would be advantageous. This is in contrast with something like civil affairs or certain types of special operations, where women bring new capabilities to the table. That said, the berthing in new boats is designed around mixed crews so clearly the horse left the barn a while ago, so it's beyond time to figure out how to make it work.

pbj1968 3y ago

Or you just shut off the lizard brain and don’t think about your coworkers that way.

hilbert42 3y ago
It has nothing to do with lizard brain whatsoever. If for some reason I had to take disciplinary action against one of those women and I had good and legitimate reason to do so then I would be at risk of retribution. The chances of me being believed would be negligible. I have always been courteous to coworkers, especially women. Your comment has just validified my point about today's politics. Decades ago no one would have thought in those terms let alone wrongly accused someone of them. Just for clarification's sake, when I mentioned I'd be worried about accidentally saying something out of place I wasn't referring to me making sexual innuendos but rather that these days innocent comment is so easily assumed to be offensive or taken the wrong way. It's why so many of us now simply say nothing, as it's safer to do so. Your hair-trigger assumption again proves my point.
- mjmsmith 3y ago
  Better to say nothing and risk being thought a lizard brain than to say "A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural", and remove all doubt.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    Perhaps so, but if I'm not stating facts then what else do we attribute the subsequent trouble to as outlined in those links? What's worse risk of being shot as the messenger or saying nothing and letting situations get more out of hand? I've always preferred the former but as I've witnessed here many prefer to remain silent.
- nvy 3y ago
  >If for some reason I had to take disciplinary action against one of those women and I had good and legitimate reason to do so then I would be at risk of retribution. Tell me you don't have military experience without telling me you don't have military experience. This statement is patently absurd.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deanCommie 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    "Why be EXTRA courteous to women? Already reveals you think of them as different." Because that's the ways boys were taught by BOTH schools and their parents when I was a kid not only from our youngest age but also it was reinforced throughout highschool until we left. This was sacrosanct value of good behavior in our society until recently. It's a damn shame that you and others like you are not old enough to have a sufficient sense of history to realize the problems and damage you are causing by accusing innocent people like me for having the normal views and values of my society's culture. It is extremely upsetting and unfair that you make such allegations. I'm not responsible for society having turned its values upsidedown in recent years.
nonethewiser 3y ago
Isn’t the “lizard brain” just instinct though? That’s what makes it the lizard brain.
mcpackieh 3y ago
What you call "lizard brain" is actually normal human physiology and psychology. Expecting adult humans to behave as sexless victorian vulcans, cool creatures of pure rationality and suppressed emotion, is asking quite a lot. People can put on this kind of act for a time, but when the farce slips you shouldn't be surprised. For better or worse, people on these ships are going to have sex (even when it's just men.. don't tell me you've never heard about sailors.)
- gcheong 3y ago
  Sex is normal - making rape lists and sexual harassment/abuse is not. There’s quite a bit of consensual middle-ground between “sexless Victorian vulcans” and outright sexual harassment/abuse and the latter shouldn’t be tolerated regardless of who it is.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    The suggestion I responded to was that humans turn off their "lizard brain" and to stop thinking about their coworkers in any sort of sexual way. Obviously making "rape lists" is very far over the line and should not be tolerated (who said otherwise?!) but to ban people from even thinking about their coworkers in a sexual way is patently absurd. We're humans, you would have to chemically neuter people to accomplish that goal.
    - gcheong 3y ago
      Fair enough. I agree turning off the lizard brain is impossible so if I misread your comment in this way I apologize. I was more referring to "people are going to have sex when working together, even when just men", which I agree with, but wanted to make the distinction between co-workers hooking up to what was referred to in the article, which wasn't clear to me from your comment.

ABeeSea 3y ago

This comment says more about you than the work environment.

hilbert42 3y ago
Read my reply to Angostura.

Angostura 3y ago

[flagged]

poisonarena 3y ago
> Possibly something to work on. tacking this on to whatever you are disagreeing with automatically makes me not respect whatever it is you are saying
nonethewiser 3y ago
Where does he say that?
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  Ironically, such malicious interpretations of casual remarks are probably the sort of thing hilbert42 is worried about. Walking defensively on eggshells in the office is one thing, at least at the end of the day you can go home and breath easy, but sealed in a metal tube under the ocean, where you have to guard what you say at all times even in your sleep? No thanks, not for me.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    Right. I was careful but it was also a friendly office,
  - snypher 3y ago
    It seems to be indicated in the subtext of your wording, even in this comment you stated "eggshells"/"breathe easy"; if your natural behavior does not align with your workplace policy wrt not devaluing someone of the opposite sex, then yes you should seek some behavior modification. Edit; to address the original comment >Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions. Is the implication "such risky conditions" = working with e.g. women?
    - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nonethewiser 3y ago

The dynamic is completely different in mixed company. It used to be common for men and women to attend different universities. In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education [0] and its not really surprising - everyone is more productive and focused. What’s surprising is how we don't realize the effectiveness of single sex education despite research, common sense, and tradition all pointing towards its effectiveness. [0] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1987-02510-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1987-02510-001

whatshisface 3y ago
Maybe it's because we don't actually want the human race to go one more generation before dying out. :-)
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  Antinatalism is ugly.
bondarchuk 3y ago
That study simply looks at the differences between students at single- and mixed-sex schools. There are so many confounders I doubt it can be used to say something meaningful purely about the effects of sex separation. They do (try to) control for some confounders but they are all related to the students' individual backgrounds and none of them related to e.g. the school or the teachers. And the schools are all Catholic.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education What about quality of socialisation, and how they fare later in life in terms of relationships
- pge 3y ago
  As a graduate of an all-male school, I think the issue you raise is the right one. Our education was second to none, but many years later we openly joke about the social adjustment we went through in college (and later) to compensate for having been in that environment in our formative years

callalex 3y ago

Thanks for sharing this fascinating take on how you experience the world. Personally, as a man, I have never found the need to worry about any of the issues you highlight when interacting with other genders. I wonder what makes our experiences so different?

phnofive 3y ago
What do you think makes your experiences so different?
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Could be perhaps generation difference. Many things today considered to be sexism used to be normal fun a few decades ago and perhaps older people can slip into the old behavior if not careful. I'm personally not worried about working in a mixed team, no matter how small the office is. I just keep things professional ... and that's it. Having said that, conditions in a submarine might be different, and office experience might not be applicable.
darkclouds 3y ago
I've been accused of groping a woman at staff party when I hadnt. Other colleagues knew my married male manager was having an affair with this single mum and was at it in a room with all the coats. I was asked to go get a coat by a colleague that knew what was going on and I walked in on them so walked straight back out. Monday morning to save face, she accused me of groping her and spread it around the company. I left shortly after that incident, it became untenable to stay on. Women have reputations to uphold, so will often lie to maintain them, laws are in their favour.
- callalex 3y ago
  Do you habitually generalize the behavior of one lying person to a entire half of the human population?
pm3003 3y ago
What hilbert42 says is very relatable to me even if it never got so bad for me. I can't stress enough how everything is different "when one can't 'go home' during off hours". I used to be an enlisted sailor, then an officer. It's sometimes hard to have a few minutes alone in an entire day (night included), especially on smaller or older ships. After a few months any small thing can become a very nasty fight very fast. The word "microagression" suddenly makes a lot of sense. I once got into a fight because some guy thought I had slightly moved his towel that was in front of my bunk. This man had been at sea on the ship for more than 6 month, I had joined mid-tour a month before. I've seen a male-only boat (there were one or two female officers, which was accepted because of the bathroom configuration) get one female enlisted sailor, a talented and very professional young woman. Everything changed in one day. Though submariners are often a bit more mature than others, managing a mixed crew on a small ship is very different. Remember the average age on a military ship is rarely above 25. Sexual harassment is not the hardest, since everyone is with everyone 24/7, most cases are very clear cut. I've seen a few very nasty cases (sexual predator that went undetected for months or year, a guy that wasn't reported despite a suspected rape attempt and went on to assault someone on his next ship under my command, a false rape claim) but it's mostly straightforward to handle. A lot of officers don't close their doors when doing personal review or other one-to-one interviews and conversations with female sailors but the paranoia mostly stops there. Dealing with "regular" harassment, rumours, jealousy etc is way less simple with a mixed crew, regardless of the personal qualities of the people. And of course your management style has to be adapted. When you have more than a few (young) women in a team, you have to lead differently. (Women over 40 are rarely on the "bad" side (when there is a clear one) of those problems). I've seen quite a few of those cases. Sometimes, we've been successful in stopping them before harm gets done, sometimes someone's life was ruined for months or years or people had to be transferred because trust had been broken too deep and some people couldn't work together anymore. And a few cases with legal proceedings (harassment lawsuit etc), but never handled one myself. On a personal note I (male) have had to share a two beds room with a female for a few months. We didn't sleep a lot, and often not at the same time, never had any problems. It was a male-only boat with less than five women. Hope this gives you an impression of what it can be like.

Lio 3y ago

It's interesting that just today The Guardian is running a story praising a new women only living space in London[1], a city where 81% of homeless, rough sleepers are men[2]. This chimes with the view that gender segregation is only seen as a bad thing when it's male only spaces. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have-brothers-sons-lovers-but-they-cant-live-here-the-happy-home-shared-by-26-women https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessness-rough-sleepers-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessne...

notahacker 3y ago
Am struggling to see a connection between impoverished rough sleepers and a single expensive apartment development in genteel New Barnet having a covenant that its tenants must be women. I guess women wouldn't have to stretch credulity quite so far to show how male only spaces and defaults impact them...
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  The problem and hypocrisy is that saying "only men allowed" will get you tarred and feathered, while saying "only women allowed" will get you showered with praise about how courageous and bold you are. Now, what was that about gender equality again?
  - defrost 3y ago
    Tarred and feathered? Not in England. Eton (1440-), Harrow (1572), Radley (1847) are all prestige "public" (for very rich well connected 'public') boys-only schools; the jewels in a crown of many more [1] that serve as introductions to a sea of men only clubs that still exist aplenty. With examples of an exclusive to women apartment building, many exclusive to male schools and clubs the only thing demonstrating gender openess in England here is homelessness - which might be dominated by men but still admits women to wander sans roof on the streets. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boys%27_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boys%27_schools_in_the...

littlestymaar 3y ago

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. Maybe you should accept that you're not a teenager anymore and that there are things that you shouldn't be saying out loud in a professional environment just because you think it's funny, it's not.

Gareth321 3y ago
> As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way. You seem to have missed his point. It isn't whether his comments are considered desirable. He doesn't care, and neither do I. It is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. We accept this because the alternative is self-imposed segregation. Which is, again, what they are pointing out. In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > t is whether comments are raised to HR, management, or for personal lawsuits. This is potentially career ending. In some imaginary world maybe, but in practice we have many people with mountains of documented misbehavior still being in charge, so we definitely don't live in that world. First of all, very few women report even blatant misbehavior like groping, forced kisses or even rape, and then there are even fewer HR department that react properly when such reports are raised. The risk of a misunderstanding ending your career is basically null. The risk of ending a woman's career when she reports misconducts is much, much higher. > Part of living in a society with free speech is that we sometimes say things which hurt others people's feelings. Insulting your boss will almost always lead to you being fired, threatening a cop will get you legal troubles. Free speech is not absolute, and was never supposed to be. > In the office today I am very careful never to be alone in a room with a woman. I don't "banter" with women because I am worried that one of my comments, however harmless in intent, will be perceived poorly. Then you have a problem when communicating with women, and you should probably spend more time around them to learn. Yes at the beginning this will likely mean that you'd need to weight all your words to avoid saying something inappropriate, but at the end of the day, you'd have learned how to behave > This means my dynamic with male colleagues is different because I trust they will not attempt to end my career over a misunderstanding. That's a pretty bad assessment, as men are much more likely to throw you under the bus at the first occasion than women, because rivalries are much more intense between people of the same sex. Being afraid of your women coworker because they could report you is as irrational as being afraid of your neighbors because they could murder your family.

bArray 3y ago

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. Using banter for high-stress situations is quite a British thing. There's a story I was told about British troops during WWII in wet rat ridden trenches, cold and low on rations, having banter to keep morale high - much to the Americans surprise. I can't liken my situation to theirs (thank goodness), but in a tough spot I was in male only company and we openly discussed who we would eat first, who we would keep around for company, etc. > Times have changed, there's absolutely no way I would accept working in that situation today as it'd be just too risky. Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions. Unfortunately this rings true. > Sure, women have rights to equality and I'd never deny them that right, but it seems to me that mixed company on a submarine is an 'explosive' environment and it's inevitable there will be trouble. (A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural.) Not just that, but if an allegation is made (which is much more likely in this situation) then it's almost impossible to deal with. You can't isolate people from one another, you can't do any real investigation - it just sucks. It's okay saying "believe all women", but I know at least two women now that have used claims of sexual assault because they had cheated on partners and got caught. The accused had the claims dropped against them, but lost their jobs and lives as a result.

lemper 3y ago
> Using banter for high-stress situations is quite a British thing. can depth crush rape list be categorised as banter?
- bArray 3y ago
  > can depth crush rape list be categorised as banter? I imagine from your perspective there is never an acceptable time when such things can be thought, let alone uttered. I understand this, but it's only afforded to idealists. There is a different perspective where you have a large group of people that are experiencing a mixture of extreme emotions (fear, loneliness, anger, regret, etc) and are unable to express them. Sometimes the more extreme the situation, the more extreme the distraction needed. When I was discussing eating my friends - there was no serious plan in place. We had zero intentions of eating each other, and we had never before or never will eat another human (depending on how food inflation goes /s). It was an extreme distraction that broke the ice in a high-stress environment that just got everybody talking. It kept morale up, it did its job.

RalfWausE 3y ago

Granted, i am no submariner, but i wasted some time of my life in the early 00s in the german army. We never had any problems with harassment or anything like that... for one, the women i met there were at least twice as tough as the men in the same unit and had an attitude that let you forget really fast they were from another gender. I never understood there could be any form of problem... though, perhaps the infantry just attracts other kinds of women than more "civilised" forms of duty.

pm3003 3y ago
IIRC the German fleet had been traumatized by a series of false sexual assault claims by one or two women in the late 90s. I don't remember the details but it was before women were allowed to serve in every position in 2000/2001.

anonymous_sorry 3y ago

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place Uh, unless you're in the habit of saying things like "I want to rape her, her and her, lol", it's really not anything to be stressed about. If you make an innocent mistake, someone may tell you about it and you get to learn something. That's it.

zo1 3y ago
It's not about raping, wow you have a low opinion of men. It's about the sexual tension, the emotions, jealousy, consensual pairing causing drama, etc. And why is no one asking women if they even want to be in such a spot. I know I'd feel odd if the genders were reversed and it was a very female dominated space that was asking me to be one of the 10% of men quota.
- anonymous_sorry 3y ago
  > It's not about raping That was a direct reference to the article linked by the grandparent of my original post, regarding bullying suffered by women serving on UK nuclear subs. Someone responded to that with a comment I read as "yeah, working with women can be a minefield". Sorry if it seemed a bit out of the blue. > It's about the sexual tension, the emotions, jealousy, consensual pairing causing drama, etc. Surely this is just part of the human experience. Learning to deal with it is part of growing up. That's not to diminish the difficulty experienced by people going through this stuff, but what's the alternative?
  - aerostable_slug 3y ago
    > what's the alternative? Don't have women on submarines. I mean, that's the alternative whether it's palatable (for any number of reasons) or not. And, as someone in favor of having mixed teams in general, it's admittedly difficult for me to imagine the warfighting advantage of a mixed submarine crew. Anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, reconnaissance, special operations support, land attack, and nuclear deterrence don't seem to have any particular characteristics where the presence of women on the crew would be advantageous. This is in contrast with something like civil affairs or certain types of special operations, where women bring new capabilities to the table. That said, the berthing in new boats is designed around mixed crews so clearly the horse left the barn a while ago, so it's beyond time to figure out how to make it work.