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Ten killed in private jet crash – Wagner leader Prigozhin 'on passenger list'
- mensetmanusman 3y agoSo Putin has just very publicly demonstrated that assassination is a justified use of conflict resolution to the world (and Ukraine).
- Arrath 3y agoWith this event being, what, the tenth time?
- willcipriano 3y ago[flagged]
- mensetmanusman 3y agoTargeted killings of foreign entities that have declared violent conflict seems somewhat different than killing a fellow political figure from your own country you just shook hands with.
- mempko 3y agoRational minds love rationalizing don't they.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bsjaux628 3y ago[flagged]
- willcipriano 3y ago[flagged]
- dredmorbius 3y agoAt 115 deaths that implies very large hands. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37242239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37242239>
- willcipriano 3y agoA single row of my table contains: "Various, including high-value targets, 1000+ assassinated"
- dredmorbius 3y agoThe specific claim I was responding to, clearly, was "It you want to claim the handful of suspicious deaths around Putin". The question isn't how many other parties have killed, though if you're going to go that route, we can add the the 300+ dead in the 1999 Russian Apartment Bombings,[1], the 3,404 civillian mortalities of the Russo-Ukraine war on Donbas (prior to 2022) and the 9,000 -- 40,000 UA civilians killed since 2022,[2] and the 30,000 civilian dead of the 2nd Russian-Chechen War.[3] Note that I'm specifically referring to civilian rather than combatant deaths. Many of the specific acts of violence against civilians by Russian-allied forces constitute war crimes. And yes, I'll anticipate that the US-Iraq War (2003--2011) in which the Lancet estimates over 600k excess violent deaths, and which was in my view a crime against humanity which I opposed then and now. But that wasn't the question. It was whether or not Putin is directly, through policy, and/or through practices responsible for only a "handful* of direct opportunistic deaths and assassinations of a principally political nature, in a way that none of the killings listed in the Wikipedia entry you submitted for US actions can be ascribed. And again, by no reasonable interpretation does that claim bear out. ________________________________ Notes: 1. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombing...> 2. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...> citing <https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/over-9000-civilians-killed-ukraine-since-russia-invaded-kyiv-2023-01-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/over-9000-civilians-kil...>, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-16500people-74 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...>, and <https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/08/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-14-august-2023 https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/08/ukraine-civilian-casua...> 3. Comprising the period 7 August 1999 -- 30 April 2009, and specifically excluding the earlier first Chechen war 1994--1996 with ~100k dead, but not on Putin's watch. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War>
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y agoIt's funny. When you point something bad about Russia, the response is always "america does it too". Do you people realize how weak that makes you look? Imagine if when america does something bad, the response was "Russia does it too". Do you realize why that scenario sounds ridiculous? Because Russia doesn't matter.
- willcipriano 3y ago> Imagine if when america does something bad, the response was "Russia does it too". That was essentially the justification for the war crimes in Vietnam. Most recently I've seen it deployed in defence of cluster munitions[0] to be used in Ukraine. Your sarcastic reply entirely captures the issue. [0]https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/14/us-cluster-munition-transfer-ukraine-ignores-history-civilian-harm https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/14/us-cluster-munition-tran...
- popilewiz 3y ago[dead]
- pengaru 3y agoPrigozhin's no Jamal Khashoggi... this outcome for him seems nowhere near uniquely Russian, having attempted a failed coup d'etat.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Putin has just very publicly demonstrated that assassination is a justified use of conflict resolution to the world To an armed insurrection? It's sort of the default.
- yreg 3y agoIsn't sort of the default a trial? Especially if the leader has an absolute power over the police and the courts?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Especially if the leader has an absolute power over the police and the courts? He doesn’t. If he had, Prigozhin wouldn’t have gotten as far as he did. Putin needed to know that when he gave the kill order, it would be obeyed. The entire Russian state is in such embarrassing shambles that this isn’t an order he could confidently issue without serious concern that it would circle back on him. Hence the stab in the back; Moscow couldn’t survive a serious trial, a fact almost evidenced by the success of Wagner’s march.
- yreg 3y agoI don't see how MoD's inability to scramble enough units in the area to stop the march is related to level of Putin's grip over the judges and legislators.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Putin's grip over the judges and legislators Judges and legislators don’t keep dictators in power, armies do.
- dredmorbius 3y agoWikpedia lists, by my count, 115 assassinations since Putin effectively assumed power in 1999: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Russian_assassinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Russian_ass...> Several of those are in Arabic / Islamic states (Syria, Afghanistan, etc.), but numerous others have occurred in Russia itself, in former Soviet states, and in independent and Western states including the UK, Turkey, and Germany. A large number appear to be political rather than military targets, notably of journalists and opposition politicians.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mindcrime 3y ago[flagged]
- qaq 3y agoAn expected outcome he should not have stopped his advance on moscow
- denkmoon 3y agoI think it's fair to say the expected outcome of that scenario is also prigozhin's death...
- throwaway894345 3y agoWhy? What was going to stop him from getting to Moscow? He was tearing through the country virtually without resistance.
- dylan604 3y agobut an "honorable" one as all of the warrior movies would have us believe. this is just chicken shit assassination.
- qaq 3y agoThats was not a certainty and going out guns blazing is more in line with the character he built up
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoThe chances that this is an accident are pretty low. Putin wanted to get as little blowback as possible from knocking him off, since he's widely popular. I'm sure he didn't think twice about murdering 9 other innocent people at the same time.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- inversia 3y agoPresumably 8, because judging by the statements, Dmitry Utkin - his right-hand man - was on board. He is a hardened criminal, a murderer and a lover of Nazi symbols on his body.
- 5e92cb50239222b 3y agoYou should also mention Utkin's callsign: Wagner.
- Pigalowda 3y agoI don’t think many on a Wagner private aircraft are “innocent”. Maybe not even the pilot or stewardess, if there was one.
- dredmorbius 3y agoAs with other suspected recent Russian / Putin assassinations, the very audacity is a key component. "We'll blow your plane out of the sky and send nine others to their graves" is a strong message, much as polonium tea, street gunnings, and killing journalists in their homes have been.
- pvaldes 3y ago> murdering 9 other innocent people Everybody in that list were high ranks in the Wagner group. All supporting if not directly commiting many atrocities and war crimes in Sudan, Syria or Ukranie. We talk of a group executing people with hammers or cutting their hands and beheading them while recording all, and sending the video to all the contacts in the phone of the victim. Calling them "innocent people" is extremely generous. The most interesting part is how carefully the killer assured to behead the top of the group at the same time in one single hit.
- jqpabc123 3y agoWow! Did not see that coming at all. Former friends of Putin should avoid high elevations and food.
- rossdavidh 3y agoIf true, the only surprise is why it would have been a surprise to him. I couldn't figure out why he felt so free to travel in Russia.
- EA-3167 3y agoMy guess is that he knew he was a dead man walking, wherever he was; he was just living out his last days/weeks recognizing that he was beyond saving.
- input_sh 3y agoThe only surprise for me is that it took two months since the attempted coup.
- rossdavidh 3y agoHypothesis: he just faked his own death, to allow him to operate in Africa for a few years unnoticed. Of course, if his dental records are matched to a corpse later today, this will be a short-lived hypothesis.
- TechBro8615 3y ago
- seydor 3y agoThey didn't really need to kill the other 9
- NikkiA 3y agoprivate plane with 7 passengers? chances are they were all wagner + wagner crew
- arisAlexis 3y agoThey have killed around 100k innocent Ukrainians, I don't think they care much.
- danpalmer 3y agoSabotage? Attack? This seems awfully convenient for a state notorious for its detractors falling out of windows or drinking radioactive tea.
- quantified 3y agoAssuming he actually was aboard.
- oxfordmale 3y agoApparently an accidental collision with a missile. Secret service was photographed in the ground. I am sure they happen to have dental records with them.
- dirtyid 3y agoDisgruntled RU AA operator pulling trigger cause Wagner toasted his friend's helicopter during mutiny is poetic justice.
- arnon 3y ago[flagged]
- thesuperbigfrog 3y agoDid the plane "crash" due to a collision with a missile?
- datadrivenangel 3y ago"Earlier, a Wagner-linked Telegram channel Grey Zone reported that the jet was shot down by air defences in Tver region, north of Moscow." Unconfirmed, but seems very plausible.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- klysm 3y ago[flagged]
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago[flagged]
- oxfordmale 3y agoThe pilot must have accidentally left the plane mid-flight. Happens to the best of us. Update: the latest news is that the plane had an accidental collision with an missile.
- kridsdale3 3y agoWhat are the odds!?
- lamontcg 3y agoautopsy showed he was full of polonium and shot himself twice in the back of the head before jumping out of a plane that accidentally collided with a missile
- johnwheeler 3y agoThat’s not sus
- meepmorp 3y agoShocking. Not that it happened, but that it took this long.
- throwaway2990 3y agoApparently his second plane is flying at the moment?
- fatfingerd 3y agoSounds like a coincidence waiting to happen.
- kjs3 3y agoWhen 'accidentally' falling off a hi-rise balcony doesn't send the appropriate message...
- mrguyorama 3y agoPlenty of speculation that Putin bumped him off, but it could very well be the other extreme: Prigozhin knew Putin wasn't going to let him live, regardless of any "deal", and so he faked his death? Both are just ass-pulls without further information.
- legitster 3y agoIf he was smart enough to fake his own death, he probably would have done it in Ukraine, rather than staging the coup at all.
- mrguyorama 3y agoThe assumptions for my wild ass theory are that he thought the coup was going to succeed. Remember, he drove something like a thousand kilometers towards Moscow, AFTER it was clear what he was doing. There are videos of Rosgvardia soldiers just standing by and letting his column through. He was attacked by helicopters, and shot at least one down, so it was going pretty well. IMO he honestly should have just gone through with it, but that's only because I hold no value in his life or Putin's. After it failed, I assume he knows Putin was going to at least try and kill him. That's why I think he would try to fake his own death. But eh, that's just as likely to me as some other crazy 3D chess.
- legitster 3y agoHe personally was never actually in the convoy. So it was hard to believe he was every that invested in its success.
- w7 3y agoWhat makes you say that? Mussolini was in Milan, and stayed in Milan, when he ordered the coup march to Rome. Mussolini lead his coup from >100-600km away from the march, why would the leader of Wagner need to be in the convoy?
- rasz 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- legitster 3y agoThere's no way everyone in the free world saw this coming and Prigozhin did not. I'm still scratching my head about what he thought his endgame was going to be after the coup.
- petertodd 3y agoEasy: he thought the coup would be the action with the highest chance of success at the point when he had committed himself to going ahead with it. He was going to lose control of Wagner if the coup didn't succeed, whether or not he tried. So no surprise he made that attempt. You don't get to where he did in life without being bold, taking risks, and being lucky. And it's likely that at the point where he had already committed himself to the coup, it looked more likely to succeed than it does now with the benefit of hindsight. As for why he kept hanging around Russia... where else is he going to go? He was a wanted man everywhere. Wanted by both the civilized world, and Russia. There are no good options in that circumstance.
- legitster 3y agoStill, if your options are ending up in The Hague or getting fired by your murderous boss, internationally embarrassing your boss in order to get a better severance package seems to be so much, much worse than either option. But again, we are talking about a literal mafia boss. He probably was dumb enough to think he had actual leverage.
- Gud 3y agoWhat makes you think a mafia boss would be stupid? Wouldn't street smart be exactly the kind of trait that would put you in the upper echelons of a mafia state such as Russia. I think there is a lot more to this story than what has come to light. I suspect they were threatening to kill his family and had the means to do so.
- civilitty 3y ago> What makes you think a mafia boss would be stupid? Wouldn't street smart be exactly the kind of trait that would put you in the upper echelons of a mafia state such as Russia. What makes you think a mafia boss would be smart? Their defining features are ruthlessness and brutality, not intelligence or "street smarts". Putin for example is known for bombing civilian apartment buildings to get into power and very publicly poisoning traitors with polonium and nerve agents, not to mention entering a disastrous war and tanking the Russian economy. Those upper echelons are only there as an accident of history. They were in the right place and the right time to loot the Russian state during privatization while killing, imprisoning, and controlling all their opposition.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway2990 3y agoHis second plane flying behind the first turned back to Moscow.
- jncfhnb 3y agoWell fuck that guy. Do take a chance to enjoy his mastery of the art of disguise however https://nypost.com/2023/07/06/photos-show-wagner-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin-in-absurd-disguises/amp/ https://nypost.com/2023/07/06/photos-show-wagner-boss-yevgen...
- photoGrant 3y agohttps://archive.is/mh2eT https://archive.is/mh2eT
- lreeves 3y agoAnyone else get endless captchas these days with archive.is? Tried several browsers including no adblocking and such to no avail.
- dredmorbius 3y agoYes. It's possibly Cloudflare-related: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37148681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37148681>
- lreeves 3y agoOh yeah good catch, I use AdGuard and thought I had it set to an internal DNS resolver for it's upstream but nope, it was CloudFlare and fixing it fixed the Archive issue. Thanks.
- bloopernova 3y agoWell. At least it wasn't a slow painful death from Polonium or Novichok. Small mercies in what appears to be a merciless regime.
- mamonster 3y agoPrecision: Priogozhin is not yet confirmed dead, he and Utkin(the commander of Wagner, a.k.a code name Wagner) were among the passengers on the list but no bodies identified yet. There is a second Wagner plane(RA02748) currently circling around Moscow. There are also unconfirmed videos already appearing of the fall, looks like anti-aircraft missiles.
- LegitShady 3y agoI think pretty much everyone who is familiar with the backstory here knew this was coming in some form. I'm honestly surprised it took this long for him to have a tragic accident involving anti aircraft missiles, a bomb, sabotage, or something similar. I guess the only question left is if he was really on the plane or is faking his death to avoid possible repercussions. Guy has to have a lot of money and safe houses etc to hide in.
- boppo1 3y agoI'm curious why he didn't see it coming and finish his push to Moscow. He was dead the moment he started down that path and could have only saved himself with a coup.
- jncfhnb 3y agoHe was hopelessly underpowered to take and hold Moscow in any meaningful sense. That’s not a credit to Russia. He just didn’t have the firepower.
- LegitShady 3y agoAs someone else mentioned, Moscow wasn't defenseless and they would never have successfully held any part of the city. IMHO he understood that even before the 'march on moscow', the russian defense establishment was already plotting his demise and the dissolution of his private army, and he had no good solutions. This was a guy who would be looking out for radioactive milkshakes for the rest of his life no matter what.
- im3w1l 3y agoI think it's interesting that they killed 9 other people too. Not very clean. Wouldn't they have had many opportunities to kill just him in the past? He supposedly made a media appearance just the other day. Could that have been the reason they went with this rush job of a murder?
- meepmorp 3y agoAssuming it wasn't an accident, the collateral damage is a feature, not a bug. Not only will you die if you rebel, but everyone around you will, too - keeps people from getting ideas, and others from following them.
- legitster 3y agoI suspect as part of his "deal" he keeps a huge security entourage that goes with him everywhere. It's probably his own private plane too. He probably had every possibility thought out except for literally getting shot out of the sky by a defense battery: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733
- mrguyorama 3y agoWhich is a weird possibility to miss. When it comes to Russian crimes in Ukraine, shooting an entire civilian air liner out of the sky is something that is on the table. Even if he honestly didn't think Putin would shoot him out of the sky, Russian defense batteries are on high alert with the frequent drones, and they've been terrible at FoF already in this war. Honestly, any plane in the sky over Russia is actively at risk of being shot down by accident.
- ianburrell 3y agoIt is likely that most of the passengers were associates of Prigozhin. Killing Wagner top brass would be an advantage for Putin. Putin doesn't care about the optics beyond showing his power. Also, Prigozhin had a whole mercenary army and would have been protected on the ground. No way that he would accidentally fall out a window.
- ethbr1 3y ago... that is one thing you could do, if you were currently trying to convince Wagner mercenaries to join Russian MoD-controlled "PMCs" to replenish forces. "Only in Russia" is become cliché at this point.
- strangattractor 3y agoAt least he didn't get thrown out a window;)
- mac3n 3y agoprobably fell out the window
- codeTired 3y agoIf you are going to make a move at a dictator you are either successful or you die. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who is familiar with the situation. In Russia murdering officials, enemies and people who do not fall in line is quite common.
- The_Colonel 3y agoPrigozhin had high approval among the ultra nationalists. Not sure if offing him will be good for Putin.
- p1esk 3y agoYou mean the ultra nationalists like Strelkov/Girkin? Seems Putin really cares about what they think.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- latchkey 3y agoSaw this quote on the xitters... BREAKING: A business plane carrying Yevgeny Prigozhin, the leader of Wagner Group, accidentally fell out of a window in the sky.
- reducesuffering 3y agoAccording to Russian state media, he didn't fall out of a window, it was a special landing operation.
- lockhouse 3y agoThat’s actually very humane treatment for an enemy of Putin’s. I’m surprised he wasn’t Novichokked.
- alemanek 3y agoNovo is for the blatant assassinations. Proghizin had some actual power so this is Putin providing an opportunity for that power base to come back quietly.
- mannerheim 3y agoShooting someone down with air defence isn't a blatant assassination?
- alemanek 3y agoNope, Russian air defense has been shooting down their own planes for awhile now.
- kridsdale3 3y agoTalk shit, get hit? (with a surface to air missile)
- hinata08 3y agoPutin has the sense of drama. He's the mafia boss but with the actual nation state resources. (we can thank him for not spreading polonium across all of London this time) Whether the information is confirmed or not, it's honestly scary. He Protec but He Also Attac, and he never forgets.
- ozten 3y agoCould be a co-incidence, but two months ago was June 23rd - the withdraw from Ukraine and start of the advance on Moscow.
- expertentipp 3y agoThere was a moment everyone thought he chilled and became civilized, or that he is only a puppet of oligarchs... but he really seems to be literally the cruelest alpha mafia boss.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Putin has the sense of drama Putin was literally unable to resist the Wagner's march on Moscow. He had to negotiate a cease fire. The dramatic move would have been eliminating Prighozin then, not two months later.
- kapilvt 3y agorevenge is a dish best served cold. Putin's shored up on the internal police structures w/ heavy equipment (ie can't happen again re march on Moscow), purged on the military hard line that aligned to prighozin. then applied the coup d'état, no need to rush. prighozin was already being called a dead man walking on state tv.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> prighozin was already being called a dead man walking on state tv The same state TV where the war has been going great, mind you. Putin had to do this. But dramatizing it as anything but a weak leader having to consolidate control before being able--not willing, able--to retaliate is pure theatre.
- yreg 3y agoEven the official story seems to be air defense.
- maxbond 3y ago[I am not a pilot.] [ETA: see replies, I've been convinced that air defense is, with the available information at this particular moment, the most likely explanation.] I've read a few articles and not seen that suggested, but this is a developing story. WSJ is reporting that this is footage of the crash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UQAUj914h0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UQAUj914h0 Assuming it's genuine, that looks more like a stall than a surface to air missile to my untrained eyes.
- stickfigure 3y agoThere are clearer videos posted, some showing that it's missing a wing.
- maxbond 3y agoDo you have a link?
- stickfigure 3y agoTry this? https://t.me/pilotblog/6196 https://t.me/pilotblog/6196 In particular, the video with the "112" watermark.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- maxbond 3y agoInteresting, yes I see what you mean, and it does look to my (again untrained) eye that these are videos of the same event.
- HillRat 3y ago
- mupuff1234 3y agoI wouldn't think that he uses his real identity for travel.
- lijok 3y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w
- lijok 3y ago[flagged]
- expertentipp 3y agoFinally I will never again be fed with the content by the creepiest and weirdest social media influencer.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoSomething happened to Kadyrov?
- expertentipp 3y agooh god, forgot about that one
- boeingUH60 3y agoKadyrov is Putin's b**h. He's safe for now.
- sinkwool 3y agotheir relationship is more complicated. Some might argue Putin is Karydov's b**h, seeing as how the federal government is paying large amounts of money to keep formal control over Chechnya and Kadyrov's clan happy.
- boeingUH60 3y agoPutin had nothing to do with this, I'm sure...
- hinata08 3y agonah We can take bets, but I guess a spark plug must have gone jammed after clogs weren't oiled, so the diesel wouldn't ignited and the plane crashed. indeed, the mechanics was on vacation in the UK to check out cathedrals in small towns. These plane things are terribly unreliable.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y agoDo private planes just crash or can it glide to a landing ona road
- hinata08 3y agothey usually do but for unknown reasons, the passengers refused to glide and decided to plunge the plane to wilfully die. now, since they wilfully died, there is no reason to trigger further investigations. And supreme leader Putin will seek damages from the families of the passengers, as they destroyed his plane.
- mymac 3y agoThat depends on the kind and severity of the failure. You could have a full electrical failure and the plane would still fly. But when you miss a wing the rest doesn't really matter any more.
- dragonwriter 3y agoUsually, after they are shot down by air defense missiles, what’s left just crashes.
- maxbond 3y agoPerhaps some private planes (Cirrus) are better equipped to survive losing a wing, since they have rocket-deployed parachutes. Somewhat boring video of the parachute in action ("boring" being a synonym for "an amazing triumph of safety engineering"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBCUQlF3MMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBCUQlF3MMU 14m video essay about the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT58pzY41wA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT58pzY41wA (Reporting says this was an Embraer, this is strictly a tangent.)
- Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago"they expect one of us the the wreckage, brother"))))
- galenmarchetti 3y agowhat are the odds this is a faked death so prigozhin can chill on a beach island somewhere?
- nodesocket 3y agoThis wreaks of foul play. Have they confirmed it was an anti-aircraft missile that brought down the plane and not a bomb? Why the delay killing him? Why was Prigozhin even in Moscow I thought he was exiled? Wasn’t he just in Africa and made a video yesterday?
- lovich 3y agoCan we fix the title? I don’t know if the bbc changed it after this was submitted but he’s not confirmed dead only presumed and the linked article title says as much. He was supposedly in Africa several hours before this so it’s still suspicious
- yreg 3y agoBBC changed the title. Source on "He was supposedly in Africa several hours before"?
- lovich 3y agoDon't have a great one. I know he said he was in Africa[1] a few days ago and in a thread on this topic on reddit I saw people discussing some video he had released a few hours before but they didn't link it. They were also speculating if it had been recorded long before he has supposedly showed back up in Russia on that plane or not. [1]https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/21/europe/russia-yevgeny-prigozhin-africa-desert-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/21/europe/russia-yevgeny-prigozh...
- yreg 3y agoUnless it's a different video than the one I know about, it was released on Monday.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y agoHe lost his mind in Bakhmut...
- konschubert 3y ago[I deleted my comment]
- tryauuum 3y agoHe was good at politics, until he wasn't
- damnesian 3y agoCoincidence?
- mamonster 3y agoUpdate: Senior Wagner personnel have confirmed to Rogov(senior russian person in Zaporozhiye) that both Prigozhin and Utkin/Wagner are dead. Source: Rogov's telegram.
- PaulHoule 3y agoIt was unimaginable to me that Putin could let Prigozhin live after what he did. Brace for the conspiracy theories though that he faked his own death.
- mymac 3y agoAlready happening. I thought that guy in the checkout line at the 7-11 looked familiar...
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoPlease fix the title: Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash
- anigbrowl 3y agoUnfortunately HN doesn't give you very long to change the title, and news orgs commonly rewrite headlines as time goes on. The submitted title was copied as it appeared at the time of submission. FWIW, every attempt at confirming this is coming to the same conclusion: that Prigozhin was on the plane.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago[flagged]
- tcmb 3y agoI was just reading the New Yorker's profile and history of Prigozhin/Wagner group: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/07/inside-the-wagner-uprising https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/07/inside-the-wag...
- bobowzki 3y agoAssuming he was indeed on the plane: He lasted longer than I expected.
- onemoresoop 3y agoThere's also a small possibility he'd staged his own death. Regardless of that, I shudder at how easily Russia eliminates their own people.
- bobowzki 3y agoAbsolutely. We probably won't know for a long time.
- ateng 3y agoLin Biao, the second in command in China back in 1971, allegedly attempted a coup , and when he's defecting to USSR his plane crashed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Biao#%22Lin_Biao_incident%22_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Biao#%22Lin_Biao_incident%...
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago"On the passenger list" is interestingly different from "on the plane"... [Edit: According to https://www.yahoo.com/news/yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-plane-crash-171752706.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-plane-cr...: > The Wagner mercenary boss was on board the aircraft when it came down, authorities have said. So, he was on the plane. (Or Russia is lying about it.)
- skygazer 3y agoI’m scratching my head wondering why there was a passenger list at all for a private flight, and beyond that, why he would put his name on it if he were actually on the flight, given he uses doubles and disguises and fake names. Was he over-confident and sloppy?
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Wagner making a deal with the CIA back few months ago I'm struggling to see the logic of such a deal for literally anybody involved.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Expecting a logic is naive, it's a war As in I'm struggling to see how anyone gains from the arrangement. It's a stupid conspiracy theory.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- kasey_junk 3y agoWhy does the CIA have to be involved. Owners of mercenary armies have a long history of starting coups on their own and autocratic dictators have a history of assassinating them when they fail. The CIA’s best option throughout this conflict has been to sit back and let the Russian system self own.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
- 6stringmerc 3y ago[flagged]
- snake_plissken 3y agoI had been floating around this theory that the original Wagner "mutiny" was actually a maskirovka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception) and was being coordinated together by Putin and Prigozhin. This complete speculation and mostly goes against the traditional narrative (i.e. Putin's legacy is now staked on the Ukraine invasion) but it would have accomplished the following, basically giving them more options and room to maneuver (both on the battlefield and in the political sphere): a) Allow Russia to disengage/extricate itself from Ukraine with a plausible/save face reason ("internal security reasons") b) Let them re-position Wagner forces to Belarus or along other boarders c) Lull Ukraine/the world into a false sense of security d) Purge/re-organize their military high command I wonder if this plane crash is part of it?
- mymac 3y agoThis plane crash would put the lie to that theory.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoNot necessarily, he may have outlived his usefulness. Assuming Putin and Prigozhin knew; now only Putin knows.
- mymac 3y agoYes, because Prigozhin would be so incredibly stupid as to not have foreseen that possibility and taken out some insurance because of that.
- mrguyorama 3y agoWell, he was stupid enough to take a "deal" from Putin and then not disappear from the face of the earth. What he was doing hanging out still in Russia after his coup attempt is just... insane. He was also stupid enough to get in a private plane and fly over territory that has Russian SAMs. With the crap going on in Moscow from those drones, and the absolute inability for Russian air defense to de-conflict an airspace, pretty much nobody should feel safe in a plane in the air in Russia.
- sottol 3y agoLooks like there a Twitter/X video supposedly showing it: https://twitter.com/echofm_online/status/1694390751839314029 https://twitter.com/echofm_online/status/1694390751839314029
- psychphysic 3y agoOn the left the unusual cloud looks very much like the contrail of a missile like object flying mostlt vertically. But his jet would be too high for a manpad, and a fighter jet would have likely fired from above cloud cover and missile wouldn't have left a contrail. There is some separation between left suspect cloud and the start of the jets con/smoke even. The visible jets con/smoke is wobbly which makes it seem like the was jet hit and then started tumbling before it breaks apart at quite low altitude. Whatever happened rapidly made the jet enter unstable flight. Is it likely the plane was shot down if so likely a shoot and scoot system like pantasir S1, or the cloud is nothing and it was a small bomb on board. I put my money on faking his own death. Mostly uninformed hot take.
- dirtyid 3y agoWonder if he faked his death. Seemed like dead man walking for how many RU aviators Prigozhin killed.
- tibbydudeza 3y agoGood riddance if true.
- dredmorbius 3y agoAmongst other coverage and reports, from other HN submissions: - Prigozhin on Manifest of Plane That Crashed in Russia <https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/plane-carrying-wagner-owner-prigozhin-crashes-in-russia-all-aboard-killed-82d25f1e https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/plane-carrying-wagner-owner...> - Wagner Chief Prigozhin Reported Dead After Russian Forces Shoot Down Plane <https://www.newsweek.com/yevgeny-prigozhin-dead-plane-shot-down-russia-wagner-group-leader-1822007 https://www.newsweek.com/yevgeny-prigozhin-dead-plane-shot-d...> - Yevgeny Prigozhin on Manifest of Plane That Crashed in Russia <https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/yevgeny-prigozhin-plane-crash-russia https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/yevgeny-prigozhin-plane-cra...> - Wagner’s Yevgeniy Prigozhin believed to be aboard crashed plane in Russia <https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/23/yevgeniy-prigozhin-plane-crash-ukraine-russia-live/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/23/yevgeniy-pri...> - Russian officials say Prigozhin was on passenger list of jet that crashed <https://www.npr.org/2023/08/23/1195466126/russia-wagner-prigozhin-crash https://www.npr.org/2023/08/23/1195466126/russia-wagner-prig...> - Russian Wagner chief Prigozhin listed on board plane that crashed in Moscow <https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-23-23/index.html https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news...> - Wagner Chief Prigozhin Listed Aboard Crashed Jet, Reports Say <https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-23/prigozhin-listed-as-passenger-aboard-crashed-jet-interfax-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-23/prigozhin...> - Wagner boss Prigozhin listed as passenger in fatal plane crash <https://www.axios.com/2023/08/23/wagner-prigozhin-plane-crash-10-dead-russia https://www.axios.com/2023/08/23/wagner-prigozhin-plane-cras...> - Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin on passenger list of crashed plane <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66599774 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-66599774> - Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin dies <https://abcnews.go.com/International/wagner-group-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-passenger-list-plane/story?id=102497445 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wagner-group-leader-yev...> - Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin listed as passenger on plane which crashed <https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/aug/23/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-drones-downed-moscow https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/aug/23/russia-uk...> - Prigozhin Listed as Passenger on Plane That Crashed, Killing All Aboard <https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08/23/world/prigozhin-russia-ukraine-war-news https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08/23/world/prigozhin-russ...> - Wagner mercenary boss Yevgeny Prigozhin killed in plane crash with nine others <https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/23/wagner-mercenary-boss-yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-in-plane-crash.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/23/wagner-mercenary-boss-yevgen...> - Yevgeny Prigozhin was passenger on crashed plane, Russian officials say <https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d1977a https://www.ft.com/content/812c9da3-80f2-4fe1-8fad-0b4441d19...> - Wagner boss Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66599733> - Wagner chief among passengers on crashed plane – officials [RT] <https://www.rt.com/russia/581729-wagner-chief-plane/ https://www.rt.com/russia/581729-wagner-chief-plane/> There's one further which is an opinion piece from a few weeks back, well before the present news: "Prigozhin will either be dead or there will be a second coup" <https://www.ft.com/content/03f220e1-6a7e-4850-bf4e-4b0f521d8f8c https://www.ft.com/content/03f220e1-6a7e-4850-bf4e-4b0f521d8...>. To which one is strongly tempted to respond: "why not both?"
- nemo44x 3y agoYou come at the king, you best not miss.
- nvy 3y agoThere's footage of a crashing aircraft circulating on Twitter and reddit[0], purportedly of this particular aircraft, and in one of the clips a plume from a missile can be seen. The aircraft depicted is clearly missing some of the vertical stabilizer and other flight surfaces which is consistent with a surface to air missile, which tends to bring down the targets by fragmentation damage (the aircraft doesn't explode in a Michael Bay fireball despite common belief). Furthermore the abrupt descent shown on the speed data suggests a catastrophic in-flight breakup, rather than something like a multiple engine failure wherein the aircraft would be able to glide, so being shot down or a bomb being detonated on board seem like the most likely causes. My money's on the former. [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/15zamen/footage_shows_how_russian_army_air_defense_shut/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/15zam...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dylan604 3y ago[flagged]
- PoignardAzur 3y ago[flagged]
- lenkite 3y ago[flagged]
- p1esk 3y agoThat's a strange title. Russian warlord Prigozhin who challenged Putin 2 month ago is dead (together with 9 others) after his plane was shut down in Russia by a rocket (most likely an execution ordered by Putin).
- nicce 3y agoWe have seen those titles everywhere. This one was interesting! (Flightradar context)
- dilyevsky 3y agoThe rocket thing is unconfirmed - it was too high for most AA systems except buk/s-300/400 class as the flightradar data suggests and at least from some pics of the wreck that are circulating online you can’t see the damage that you’d expect from such massive missile.
- not_your_vase 3y agoAt the very same time it is very surprising, and yet it was so very expected.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoAnalysis of unconfirmed open source media suggests either a SAM or air-to-air missile was used to bring it down due to a pattern of small, inward puncture marks indicative of a blast-frag proximity warhead. A bomb on-board would've created outward, localized, and larger mushrooming deformation. At the same time, the head of Russia's aerospace forces, Sergei Surovikin, was fired for being too close to Prigozhin. It's still unclear if he's on an actual vacation, in hiding, detained, disappeared, or dead.