4 ms·

Green light for people turning right while also providing a green light for pedestrians crossing that stream is common in the US, but also just begging to kill

Green light for people turning right while also providing a green light for pedestrians crossing that stream is common in the US, but also just begging to kill people. Frankly the same applies to "right on red".

JJMcJ 3y ago
Nothing would increase pedestrian safety as much as ending right turn on red, no matter how convenient that is for drivers.
- polka_haunts_us 3y ago
  As a frequent pedestrian, I can't square this thought at all. If the right has a red that means the crosswalk directly in front of the car has a green. I've never had issues walking perpendicular to traffic because almost no one thinks they have right of way sitting in front of a red. The issues I've had is when I'm walking parallel to traffic and people turning right on green have the thought "Oh, he's far enough away from my lane, I can squeeze in", causing a cascade of people having the same thought. Or even people who just don't notice me b/c they're looking straight at the light more than they're looking right at who is waiting on the sidewalk.
- pbjtime 3y ago
  I can see how that discussion is tangential to this one, but I can't see how it's directly related.
- seabird 3y ago
  Right on red isn't a convenience for drivers. Very often it results in multi-minute waits for an opportunity to make an unprotected left or intersection crossing for tens of blocks downstream from a busy street that people are constantly turning right off of.
  - JJMcJ 3y ago
    It's a convenience for the drivers at the light. You're right about the downstream, I am in such a situation and it's miserable trying to make a left onto the arterial cross street near me.
taeric 3y ago
I'm baffled/terrified that that is common. We have a few intersections near us that are definitely the other way, if anyone has a green to go through an intersection, everyone else has a yellow or red. Preferably red. We have a few intersections with specific "no right" signs so that those can be red while the crosswalk is green.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
Another bonkers thing I've noticed since moving to the US: In the UK, zebra crossings (pedestrian crossings not protected by traffic lights) have two features which help make them safe: 1. Flashing orange lamps, which allow a driver to see the crossing from a distance, even if their view of the roadway is obscured by vehicles in front of them. 2. No parking zones for several car lengths either side of the crossing, which allow a driver to have an unobstructed view of the pavement (sidewalk) on either side of the crossing, so they can see if there are pedestrians about to start crossing. In contrast, when I drive here, I have to be really vigilant to watch out for crossings that have neither a stop sign nor a traffic light. And then, because there are cars obscuring my view of the sidewalk and first few feet of the crossing, I have to slow down and look directly to the right as I pass, lest I see a pedestrian a second too late. This poor design makes pedestrians distrustful (and rightly so) so, in many places, pedestrians will wait at crossings until there are no cars in sight, and only then start to cross, even though they had right of way all along.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
Strangely, I think right on red might even be safer, as: - you must come to a complete stop before making the turn, and - as your light is red, you know to look out for pedestrians or vehicles that have right of way
- spacedcowboy 3y ago
  I believe there is some … difference … between theory and practice, however! At least in my experience over the last couple of decades in the US.
  - JJMcJ 3y ago
    Many people don't even slow down that much, just enough so the car won't skid making the turn.
    - astura 3y ago
      Yep, They barely slow down and definitely don't look.
      - JJMcJ 3y ago
        Or look to their left for automobile traffic crossing with the green.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Depends on the state. In my state, people seem to be very careful drivers, and drivers seem attentive enough to react to unexpected events. Meanwhile it seems like drivers in California don't even know what a stop sign is. We have right turn on red here, and if you were to run someone over while doing that, you'd not have many friends left for being such an asshole. I disagree entirely with the article. Rule number one of driving is "watch where you are going and don't run into anything", which the driver in this case clearly failed to do. The two lanes turning right means that your view of the crosswalk could be obscured, but in that case, it is your responsibility as a driver to only continue moving if you are sure it is safe. I do not give a crap how supposedly "unsafe" the intersection was designed, it is your responsibility as a driver to not drive into people.
navane 3y ago
What about kids exiting buses on the street side, instead of on the curb side.
- gizmo686 3y ago
  School busses have stop signs that come out when dropping off/picking up students and require that traffic stop in both directions. As long as drivers follow the law, it is perfectly safe.
gumby 3y ago
BTW in California, left on red is legal when it's one-way to one-way. Most people don't realise it so I don't do it if there is any ped around. Also no-stop right turns at red lights are made by putting a triangular island that forms a "protected" right lane. I put "protected" in quotes because it's protected in traffic engineer jargon but affords no protection to peds. Few pedestrians realise that the driver is not supposed to stop when making this turn, and that even when a crosswalk is marked there is no pedestrian signal. Super dangerous. With these it's often hard to even see a pedestrian even when you slow down. Again, this is California; I don't know about anywhere else. CA has it's own traffic laws; for example I believe it's the only state in which it's legal to overtake on the right hand side (the equivalent is called "undertake" in the UK I believe).
- taeric 3y ago
  I think most places are "turn on red is legal, if you don't have to cross traffic?" In practice, this means right for most intersections, and left for 1-way to 1-way. (And to be fully fair, they usually are codified individually.) Similarly, many places are taking up the "Idaho Stop law" for cyclists. Gets rather annoying to have to explain to random folks that you can, in fact, not fully stop at a stop sign as a biker now.
crote 3y ago
> Green light for people turning right while also providing a green light for pedestrians crossing that stream It's actually not that big of a problem - in the right situation. My country does something similar, but only in low-traffic situations and with good visibility. For example, imagine a junction between a high-traffic road and a low-traffic street. A left turn from the low-traffic street might turn out to be nearly impossible without traffic lights. However, the right turn onto the low-traffic street does not warrant a dedicated turning lane, and in space-restricted environments that often isn't even a possibility at all. And even a moderate pedestrian volume will lead to the high-traffic road being severely limited in the straight-ahead direction just because a pedestrian wants to close the low-traffic street.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
“Right on green” and “right on red” are both bad for pedestrians, although I see more mistakes on right on green just because many drivers see the green light as a free to go. This could be solved by controlled right lights (which correspond to left turn light cycles), but those require more lanes, meaning more space. Traffic flows so well in Switzerland than the USA because of the way they do this.

JJMcJ 3y ago

Nothing would increase pedestrian safety as much as ending right turn on red, no matter how convenient that is for drivers.

polka_haunts_us 3y ago
As a frequent pedestrian, I can't square this thought at all. If the right has a red that means the crosswalk directly in front of the car has a green. I've never had issues walking perpendicular to traffic because almost no one thinks they have right of way sitting in front of a red. The issues I've had is when I'm walking parallel to traffic and people turning right on green have the thought "Oh, he's far enough away from my lane, I can squeeze in", causing a cascade of people having the same thought. Or even people who just don't notice me b/c they're looking straight at the light more than they're looking right at who is waiting on the sidewalk.
pbjtime 3y ago
I can see how that discussion is tangential to this one, but I can't see how it's directly related.
seabird 3y ago
Right on red isn't a convenience for drivers. Very often it results in multi-minute waits for an opportunity to make an unprotected left or intersection crossing for tens of blocks downstream from a busy street that people are constantly turning right off of.
- JJMcJ 3y ago
  It's a convenience for the drivers at the light. You're right about the downstream, I am in such a situation and it's miserable trying to make a left onto the arterial cross street near me.

taeric 3y ago

I'm baffled/terrified that that is common. We have a few intersections near us that are definitely the other way, if anyone has a green to go through an intersection, everyone else has a yellow or red. Preferably red. We have a few intersections with specific "no right" signs so that those can be red while the crosswalk is green.

rahimnathwani 3y ago

Another bonkers thing I've noticed since moving to the US: In the UK, zebra crossings (pedestrian crossings not protected by traffic lights) have two features which help make them safe: 1. Flashing orange lamps, which allow a driver to see the crossing from a distance, even if their view of the roadway is obscured by vehicles in front of them. 2. No parking zones for several car lengths either side of the crossing, which allow a driver to have an unobstructed view of the pavement (sidewalk) on either side of the crossing, so they can see if there are pedestrians about to start crossing. In contrast, when I drive here, I have to be really vigilant to watch out for crossings that have neither a stop sign nor a traffic light. And then, because there are cars obscuring my view of the sidewalk and first few feet of the crossing, I have to slow down and look directly to the right as I pass, lest I see a pedestrian a second too late. This poor design makes pedestrians distrustful (and rightly so) so, in many places, pedestrians will wait at crossings until there are no cars in sight, and only then start to cross, even though they had right of way all along.

rahimnathwani 3y ago

Strangely, I think right on red might even be safer, as: - you must come to a complete stop before making the turn, and - as your light is red, you know to look out for pedestrians or vehicles that have right of way

spacedcowboy 3y ago
I believe there is some … difference … between theory and practice, however! At least in my experience over the last couple of decades in the US.
- JJMcJ 3y ago
  Many people don't even slow down that much, just enough so the car won't skid making the turn.
  - astura 3y ago
    Yep, They barely slow down and definitely don't look.
    - JJMcJ 3y ago
      Or look to their left for automobile traffic crossing with the green.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Depends on the state. In my state, people seem to be very careful drivers, and drivers seem attentive enough to react to unexpected events. Meanwhile it seems like drivers in California don't even know what a stop sign is. We have right turn on red here, and if you were to run someone over while doing that, you'd not have many friends left for being such an asshole. I disagree entirely with the article. Rule number one of driving is "watch where you are going and don't run into anything", which the driver in this case clearly failed to do. The two lanes turning right means that your view of the crosswalk could be obscured, but in that case, it is your responsibility as a driver to only continue moving if you are sure it is safe. I do not give a crap how supposedly "unsafe" the intersection was designed, it is your responsibility as a driver to not drive into people.

navane 3y ago

What about kids exiting buses on the street side, instead of on the curb side.

gizmo686 3y ago
School busses have stop signs that come out when dropping off/picking up students and require that traffic stop in both directions. As long as drivers follow the law, it is perfectly safe.

gumby 3y ago

BTW in California, left on red is legal when it's one-way to one-way. Most people don't realise it so I don't do it if there is any ped around. Also no-stop right turns at red lights are made by putting a triangular island that forms a "protected" right lane. I put "protected" in quotes because it's protected in traffic engineer jargon but affords no protection to peds. Few pedestrians realise that the driver is not supposed to stop when making this turn, and that even when a crosswalk is marked there is no pedestrian signal. Super dangerous. With these it's often hard to even see a pedestrian even when you slow down. Again, this is California; I don't know about anywhere else. CA has it's own traffic laws; for example I believe it's the only state in which it's legal to overtake on the right hand side (the equivalent is called "undertake" in the UK I believe).

taeric 3y ago
I think most places are "turn on red is legal, if you don't have to cross traffic?" In practice, this means right for most intersections, and left for 1-way to 1-way. (And to be fully fair, they usually are codified individually.) Similarly, many places are taking up the "Idaho Stop law" for cyclists. Gets rather annoying to have to explain to random folks that you can, in fact, not fully stop at a stop sign as a biker now.

crote 3y ago

> Green light for people turning right while also providing a green light for pedestrians crossing that stream It's actually not that big of a problem - in the right situation. My country does something similar, but only in low-traffic situations and with good visibility. For example, imagine a junction between a high-traffic road and a low-traffic street. A left turn from the low-traffic street might turn out to be nearly impossible without traffic lights. However, the right turn onto the low-traffic street does not warrant a dedicated turning lane, and in space-restricted environments that often isn't even a possibility at all. And even a moderate pedestrian volume will lead to the high-traffic road being severely limited in the straight-ahead direction just because a pedestrian wants to close the low-traffic street.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

“Right on green” and “right on red” are both bad for pedestrians, although I see more mistakes on right on green just because many drivers see the green light as a free to go. This could be solved by controlled right lights (which correspond to left turn light cycles), but those require more lanes, meaning more space. Traffic flows so well in Switzerland than the USA because of the way they do this.