7 ms·
The maximum limit for cash payments in Italy is 1000€, so 3k would still be a lot. Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? Where does that cash come fro
by mdrzn 3y ago
The maximum limit for cash payments in Italy is 1000€, so 3k would still be a lot.
Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? Where does that cash come from? 60% of the times, it's money laundering every time.
edit: I suppose since I'm in EU and I'm only 30 I'm "used" to the 1k limit, while non-EU (or specifically USA) people might be grabbing their pitchforks.
- aaomidi 3y ago“I don’t want to store my money in a bank”.
- spacewrangler 3y agoNone of your business.
- tomrod 3y ago> Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? For their own personal reasons. Purchasing a business, a vehicle, a property or other real/tangible asset, hush money, avoiding a lawsuit, and so forth. > Where does that cash come from? It doesn't matter. Why do you care where people get their currency from? Do you have a rash of mint or bank robberies or something?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago> Purchasing a business, a vehicle, a property These purchases are already so bound up with red tape that making the actual payment via bank transfer is hardly an inconvenience. > hush money Extortion is a crime. You are listing a person’s attempt to placate a criminal as a reason the state shouldn’t get involved? > avoiding a lawsuit Few places are so litigious as the USA, and such concerns hardly register for the people living in the subject of this HN post.
- tomrod 3y ago> These purchases are already so bound up with red tape that making the actual payment via bank transfer is hardly an inconvenience. That's a separate problem that allowing overeager regulation of currency utilization enables. > Extortion is a crime. You are listing a person’s attempt to placate a criminal as a reason the state shouldn’t get involved? Correct, extortion is a crime in some locales. Note, I said hush money, not extortion. > Few places are so litigious as the USA, and such concerns hardly register for the people living in the subject of this HN post. Few as litigious as the USA _so far_. ------- A better set of questions here: who benefits, and by how much, with regulating currency so tightly?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago> That's a separate problem that allowing overeager regulation of currency utilization enables. Now it seems like you are resorting to the libertarian fantasizing that used to be so common on news-for-nerds sites. > Note, I said hush money, not extortion. Threatening to go public with a story when the other party might feel compelled to pay hush money, is already viewed as extortion. > Few as litigious as the USA _so far_. The special litigiousness of the USA is due to a number of longstanding factors including its inherited common-law system that differs from most other developed countries. It is not clear why you would expect other countries to become as litigious anytime soon. > A better set of questions here: who benefits, and by how much, with regulating currency so tightly? The general public who can be sure that taxes are being paid fairly and they are receiving the services they should. Again, not all countries are as culturally forgiving of tax evasion as Americans, let alone those places with even less controls over the flow of cash than the USA.
- tomrod 3y ago>> That's a separate problem that allowing overeager regulation of currency utilization enables. > Now it seems like you are resorting to the libertarian fantasizing that used to be so common on news-for-nerds sites. As I see no reason it is a fantasy, I'll continue "resorting" to the reality that, frankly, the entity able to put me to death legally probably doesn't need to know my reasons and justifications for every action I take, respectfully. If that makes me a left-libertarian, then so be it. Respectfully, sounds like you might have some hangups with discussing points that have overlap in classical liberal philosophies, throwing out legitimate discussion with the baby and bathwater. >> Note, I said hush money, not extortion. > Threatening to go public with a story when the other party might feel compelled to pay hush money, is already viewed as extortion. Payment for private services, like sexual services, are common in Europe and likely preferred to be kept private. I believe you would view this as legalized extortion.Yet, the desire for discretion exists even when the "threat" of information being public isn't necessarily blackmail. > The general public who can be sure that taxes are being paid fairly and they are receiving the services they should. Again, not all countries are as culturally forgiving of tax evasion as Americans, let alone those places with even less controls over the flow of cash than the USA. That's a weird way to spell "banks and financial institutions." There are plenty on controls already on the impoverished and middle class. A blunt hammer like this gums up transaction processing and allows for additional regulatory capture by banks and financial institutions.
- pjc50 3y agoNote that in most of the EU you also have to provide ID to do a real estate transfer, for exactly the same money laundering reasons.
- MSFT_Edging 3y agoHow else would you buy a used car/motorbike from a private party?
- Scarblac 3y agoBank transfer from my phone. It's as instant as handing over cash.
- mdrzn 3y agoSend it via bank? A quick and free bank transfer which also works out as "receipt" of payment.
- helaoban 3y agoWhat happens when your bank says: "no." ?
- mdrzn 3y agoWhy would the bank say no, if I have the funds? And let's not start with some fetish fantasy about "because an oppressive regime could do so any time"
- Gunnerhead 3y agoI love how you describe it a “fetish fantasy”, I’m sure every authoritarian dictatorship or fascist government in history would have been called a fetish fantasy a decade earlier. So naïve. The car is a variable for anything you can think of, but I will give you a hypothetical example with the car then. Imagine in 20 years where owning a gas car is frowned upon, the government introduces a new law that one can no longer purchase gas cars - used or not, maybe this government was even lobbied by some electric car conglomerate. Am I allowed to worry about that or is that a fetish fantasy too?
- helaoban 3y agoApologies for the bluntness, but this is just extremely naive. The bank, at its discretion or under order by government, can and will prevent the transfer of funds, so it's really just a case of Murphy's law. I don't know why there has to be appeal to "fetish fantasies". Is it so hard for you to imagine a scenario where you or others might unjustly be the target of nefarious actions by public or private parties who would wield the bureaucracy of banking system against you? This isn't a hypothetical, one of things opposing counsel does in a lawsuit involving money is to attempt to freeze or restrict your accounts. You may have never been in a situation where a bank prevents you from moving money, but it happens, and the worldview you are espousing doesn't survive first contact with such a situation. But you don't have to take my word for it. There's a reason the market for gold ingots exists, and it isn't just to guard against inflation.
- eur0pa 3y agoWhy? None of your business. Where it comes from? None of your business. Says who? Me, twice.
- thiht 3y ago> Where it comes from? None of your business. That ridiculously wrong. If you got a huge stash of cash and can’t justify where it comes from… well yeah, it screams undeclared work or illegal business. Do you have other legit explanations?
- freedude 3y ago"60% of the times, it's money laundering every time." Please provide your reference.
- mdrzn 3y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKiSPUc2Jck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKiSPUc2Jck
- gspencley 3y ago> Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? The answer to this is very simple: none of your business. I take strong issue with the word "need." Why do you need that car? That television? That four bedroom house? Why do you need that bow and arrow? For sport, you say? Why not play some ball game instead? Why do you need a chess set when you can play digitally online without killing a tree? Why do you need those fancy clothes? Why does your family need that Disney World vacation? Let's limit your life choices to what someone else decides that you "need" and then ask if life is still worth living. The fact is that freedom and liberty comes with it the ability to not have to explain or justify our life choices to others. Will bad people abuse it and do things you don't like? Yeah. That's the risk that comes with it and we have a legal system to identify and deal with those bad actors. A legal system that ought to exist to serve and promote liberty for the innocent, rather than eliminating it and destroying it for everyone out of fear and suspicion that some people might be up to no good some of the time. So unless there is evidence of wrong-doing, it really is no one's business who they associate with, who they trade with, what they trade, how much they trade and why. And "need" has absolutely no relevance. "Because I want to" ought to be good enough.
- mdrzn 3y agoNothing wrong with this point of view, except that it's not shared by Europeans as far as I know (and feel). The "none of your business" doesn't work in the long run.
- jaywalk 3y ago> The "none of your business" doesn't work in the long run. Well, it should.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoI am European and the feeling "that's none of your business" is shared by many people. An anecdote: The 500 euro bank note was originally created because Germans had the habit of paying in cash, even for large purchases like cars, and they had a DM1,000 bank note (which is about EUR500).
- 3y ago
- mytailorisrich 3y agoIt is a very slippery slope to use the "why would you need it" argument. To me it's on par with "if you have nothing to hide, why would you care". While we can indeed discuss whether it makes sense in most case to pay large sums in cash, this is not the issue. The issue is whether this should be illegal. Some people hoard gold and jewellery, should that be illegal? Maybe I am hoarding cash and maybe that's not a great idea but in a free society people should be free to make their own decisions on this.
- laputan_machine 3y ago"I'm ok with having my freedoms restricted so you should too"
- ClarityJones 3y agoCash is money. Cash is immune to bank runs. If you have $10,000, then you have $10,000. If you deposit $10,000 in a bank, then you have $0 and a promise from a bank that has $1,000 and a promise (from somebody else) for $9,000.
- mdrzn 3y agoSo maybe we should fix fractional reserve instead of having an issue against cash? I would rather pay $10k with a bank transfer than having to carry that much on me.
- ClarityJones 3y agoYes, fractional reserve banking should be reformed, and that's a reasonable preference. However, my point is that it's also reasonable for people to want to have physical possession of their assets.
- totony 3y agoWhat if the bank doesn't allow you to make that transaction? How much delay are you willing to accept? Fees?
- Scarblac 3y agoGovernment insures personal bank accounts up to 100k euro. You have your 10k.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- volent 3y agoThat is not true in most of Europe. Money you deposit in a bank is guaranteed by the state up to a certain limit (often 100 000€ per person per bank). Source (french) : https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/educational/explainers/tell-me-more/html/deposit_guarantee.fr.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/educational/explainers/tell-me... > Selon la réglementation européenne, ces systèmes assurent 100 000 euros par déposant. > (DeepL) According to European regulations, these systems guarantee 100,000 euros per depositor.
- freedude 3y agoWhenever I buy a car, tractor, cattle, pump repair, implements, out-buildings, solar system installation, fuel storage, etc... Because I pay cash and keep the bankers out of the transaction it costs me less and it costs the seller less. I negotiate this ahead of time. Most people in business would rather have cash in hand than wait on the bank and pay their fees.
- mdrzn 3y agoSorry to assume where you're from, but I'm guessing America (either North or South)? In EU you could pay for all those things with a quick and free bank transfer for any amount, so you wouldn't even need to withdraw and travel with all that cash on you. There's no "bank fees", there's no "bankers" to keep out of the transaction, because they don't take any fee.
- freedude 3y agoSo with the "convenience" of the free bank transaction what do you give up? There is no free lunch. Somebody pays for that "convenience". My guess is you pay with a loss of privacy from the government and the corporations that run the program for the government. Why would they do that? What is in it for them? Are they your public servant or have you become a governmental pawn?
- bowsamic 3y agoIn Germany even with SEPA it's very common to pay for huge transactions with cash. People don't trust electronic payment for "critical" things
- Scarblac 3y ago> Because I pay cash and keep the bankers out of the transaction it costs me less and it costs the seller less. Other way around (in the Netherlands, which is the subject), bank transfers are free but depositing cash as a business costs money. Paying cash costs the seller more and holding it has a risk of robbery.
- 3y ago
- jaclaz 3y agoNo, it was planned to go down to 1,000 but the application was delayed and later instead it was raised to 5,000 (Italian): https://www.axerve.com/approfondimenti/insight/limite-pagamento-contanti https://www.axerve.com/approfondimenti/insight/limite-pagame...
- dotnet00 3y agoWhy do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?
- irusensei 3y agoEU citizen here and I don't remember electing you to represent my opinions. EU is not a hive mind and different people from different jurisdictions have different point of views on this matter. Here where I live people appreciate having access to cash because they don't trust their government. Apologies if that sounded rude but Its often that I see people claiming to be EU citizens or sympathizers dropping the most arrogant takes. To the point I prefer to browse this website after 7PM in my timezone to avoid "the EU-only HN time".
- 0x00000000 3y agoHow do people buy used cars? Besides crypto, I don’t know of any non-cash payment method that isn’t prone to fraud, overdraft, or transaction cancellation/reversal in the United States and many sellers on Craigslist etc will only take cash