6 ms·

Cloud outage causes Bambu 3D printers to start printing on their own

80 points by rcarmo 3y ago

thfuran 3y ago
>To reduce fire risks should something like this week's errors happen again, all of the company’s 3D printers will also be updated to continuously monitor the “hotend and heatbed temperature,” alerting users when a fault is detected, and automatically turning off heater mechanisms. So their current product offering includes a heating element capable of starting a fire but no monitoring or cutoff?
- amluto 3y ago
  From the article, it sounds like there is a temperature sensor, but it’s not enabled in software.
- KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
  There are lots of hardware features that enable cutoff (such as thermal runaway detection) but that's irrelevant to situations in which the environment has not been prepared for printing. For example, your workshop may be well ventilated during the day and completely closed up at night. All the safety features in the world don't add up to a 100% safe usage experience for any piece of hardware. You don't want your printer doing this for the same reason you don't leave your table saw running when locking up for the night. Technically safe, but unadvisable.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >All the safety features in the world don't add up to a 100% safe usage experience for any piece of hardware Yes, obviously. But that doesn't mean you should omit basic safety features.
    - KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
      Which, they didn't. Per the aforementioned hardware safety features. Extremely broad and reliable rule of thumb: hardware safety features > software safety features
- dawnerd 3y ago
  They have a physical thermal fuse too that wasn’t mentioned.
- thenickdude 3y ago
  The temperature of the heating element is regulated, but there can't be thermal sensors on everything. The typical disaster on 3D printers is that the print detaches from the bed and sticks to the nozzle instead, which the printer doesn't notice, and so keeps extruding plastic into this obstruction, resulting in the nozzle being encased in a big blob of plastic. This isn't immediately a fire risk, because the hottest point will still be the nozzle which is temperature-regulated, but due to ongoing mechanical damage you start to risk things like the thermistor and heater wires being damaged, and that can cause havoc. Prusa recently introduced thermal modelling on their printers which detects heating anomalies like this, because the hotend becoming encased in plastic changes the rate of temperature leakage to the environment, and so the required heater power. The idea is that you can catch the issue at a very early stage.
nottorp 3y ago
Incident or no incident, why do these things need the "cloud" to operate?
- bboygravity 3y ago
  Nothing needs cloud to operate. Cloud is for tracking.
- b112 3y ago
  I think need just happens. Many users don't have computers, or even a tablet. So the cloud is seen as a requirement, and in the end, no desktop app gets created.
- readyplayernull 3y ago
  Analytics in the name of safety.
- postalrat 3y ago
  Because cloud is a feature and features have value.
- judge2020 3y ago
  They have a way to view your printer's camera iirc. Open ports on your router aren't a good solution anymore especially with individual v4s being removed in some residential deployments.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Because a print can take multiple days, you’re supposed to keep an eye on, and you might want to leave the house.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    ... and because i'm not into 3d printers, i rightfully assumed it's there to make you pay for a subscription or something ;)
    - 3y ago
h2odragon 3y ago
How about we have appliances without remote controls? What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer? Couldn't all the same features be offered with local computing? Isn't "cloud" just a route for trouble for almost all users? I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors" thing anyway. you've got far more direct inputs to monitor. is image recognition truly that reliable or is it not just a source of more errors when the recognition software goes awry?
- infocollector 3y ago
  I think we need a regulation 1. Any personal images/data sent to cloud need a FDA approval. (FDA = Federal Data Administration) 2. Any person working in this agency is banned for life to work in the private data sector for life (it better be lucrative to work there). 3. ... perhaps fill any loopholes you see here as you move along ... (along with percentage of revenue punishments for each loophole used first time)
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    The summary executions will continue until total privacy is achieved.
  - tzs 3y ago
    > 2. Any person working in this agency is banned for life to work in the private data sector for life (it better be lucrative to work there). What about the other way around? Can someone who works in the private data sector leave and go to work for the agency?
  - dwaite 3y ago
    > I think we need a regulation 1. Any personal images/data sent to cloud need a FDA approval. (FDA = Federal Data Administration) So not just new regulation, but an entirely new regulatory body. Also, the Food and Drug Administration will have to change their name to something else.
- 542458 3y ago
  Please don’t take the following as an endorsement of Bambu. > What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer? A large print can take 24 hours or more. Offering the ability to walk away and check-in and issue commands remotely is useful to people. (Yes, you shouldn’t leave a printer unattended, but the basic reality is people do leave their printers unattended anyways.) > I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors" thing anyway. I don’t think it’s inconceivable that it could work well. The main issue being monitored for here is “has the print prematurely detached from the bed”, which I’d imagine should be possible to reliably detect with a known camera, angle, and print characteristics.
whynotmaybe 3y ago
Just to be clear, it's possible to print on the Bambu without an internet connection right?
- ianschmitz 3y ago
  Yes it does support local connection, although in my experience it hasn’t worked well possibly because I have my IoT devices on a separate VLAN.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Yes, either by SD card or through Wi-Fi.
bbielsa 3y ago
I own a Bambu P1S and Bambu does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case. The cloud (anti-)feature is entirely unnecessary and gives them free license to use all recordings from the webcam in the printer. The printer has to be connected to the “cloud” in order to access the webcam, control the internal lights, and control the print head and heated bed from their Bambu app. However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. They intentionally ruined the user experience in LAN-only mode to persuade people to connect their printers to the Bambu cloud service.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? Unless you are complaining that you can’t use the smartphone app, while at your own home on Wi-Fi, without connecting to the cloud. That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. Finally, while it doesn’t work from the app, you can control those things and view footage using the Bambu Studio desktop app without a cloud connection, IIRC. You just need a PC, not a phone, though I would argue this makes sense as a fair trade-off considering the consumer demographics. A PC would be way more reliable anyway as your phone would be switching onto cell tower networks which obviously don’t have your printer on them. Edit: Also, Bluetooth tops out under perfect conditions at 2.2 Megabits. Real world is far lower. You can’t reliably send a video stream over Bluetooth. Heck, Apple doesn’t even try to send a lossless audio stream over Bluetooth.
  - bbielsa 3y ago
    > This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. I may not have made myself clear with my original argument, I meant to say offline controls are clearly possible. So if offline controls are possible there’s 0 excuses for controls not to be available in LAN-only mode. (LAN-only is wifi connected, cloud disabled) > All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? It is way easier to tap a button on the app when dealing with hardware issues than using the built in menus (that’s my opinion). But more importantly there is no valid reason to not make them available in LAN-only mode, that was an intentional decision on their part. > That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. The 3D printing community is pretty technical, so I think anyone disabling cloud mode would be able to understand the consequences. An opt-out (without degrading the experience) is all bambu owners are asking for. And keep in mind 3D printers are a fire hazard so printing while you aren’t home is a risk.
StayTrue 3y ago
I researched Bambu printers before and it seemed, at least at the time, you could not manage it with open source Octoprint. I prefer not to connect my printer to the live network but still want to access it remotely, which Octoprint accomplishes via serial connection.
MegaDeKay 3y ago
Anti-features like this just make me more convinced to get a Voron instead. Open source design, great community, almost infinitely moddable, and at least as capable as the Bambu. You can self-source all the parts or buy kits from various vendors. https://vorondesign.com/ https://vorondesign.com/ However, I say all this as someone that is technically inclined, wants to tinker, and is a fan of the open source. Somebody that wants plug-and-play should definitely look at another printer.
- solotronics 3y ago
  +1 for Voron project. I recommend first time builders to get a reputable Voron kit, you will save a lot of time creating wiring harnesses and such.
- traverseda 3y ago
  Voron seems like so much work honestly, and it's still quite expensive.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Frankly, with Bambu and other printer vendors out there (Qidi X-Max/X-Plus 3 comes to mind), Vorons are just terrible value these days. You pay 1k (or less, for the Qidi/P1P) and get every single feature that Voron gets, with none of the work. And you get a warranty. And you don't have to tune it. You're basically paying money to get a less capable printer that you have to assemble. If you want to build your own printer for the experience, that's obviously worth something, but it doesn't make sense from a purely financial perspective.
- thenickdude 3y ago
  Setting up my Voron 2.4 was probably a solid week of work. The parts are cheap but the assembly and tuning is a killer. I'm looking at pre-assembled printers to add additional printers to my fleet, because I'm not keen to repeat that again. That said, the amount of really nice mods for Voron due to its open source design has been fantastic and I already consider several of those to be essential in a new printer...
allenrb 3y ago
I’ve got a Prusa Mk4 and it supports some sort of cloud feature. Can’t tell you more than that because it’s turned off and there it shall stay. I’m able to print perfectly well over the LAN, thank-you-very-much.
LocalH 3y ago
This is a problem borne from several factors. Horrible data policies that monetize every single thing that can be collected, overuse of things like CGNAT that complicate inbound connections, the "residential customers may not run servers" clause found in many ISP ToS, and probably some others that I'm not mentioning. The combination of big government and big tech has normalized so many destructive corporate behaviors, that I fear we will never be able to fix the problem from within the system, nor will a successful revolution ever happen. Humanity is absolutely fucked, if we continue on the current trajectory. And no nation that has any significant influence is without fault. The modern "civilized" world is garbage for the vast majority of individuals.
villgax 3y ago
Screw bamboo with a bamboo
Baeocystin 3y ago
Here's Bambu's response, for the interested: https://blog.bambulab.com/update-for-cloud-downtime/ https://blog.bambulab.com/update-for-cloud-downtime/
jacquesm 3y ago
Don't buy any hardware that requires a cloud connection. I was shopping around for inverters for my solar installation a few months ago and it took some digging but I found a bunch of brands that do not have a mandatory cloud component. Those got the order. There is no way I'm going to hand over the responsibility for the electrical system in my house to some backend developer in a faraway country, nor do I want such gear on my LAN without it being on a completely different segment and without any access to the net. In general anything that contains a heating element or that generates or uses power in the KW range should not be internet accessible. Too many griefers in this world.

80 points by rcarmo 3y ago

>To reduce fire risks should something like this week's errors happen again, all of the company’s 3D printers will also be updated to continuously monitor the “hotend and heatbed temperature,” alerting users when a fault is detected, and automatically turning off heater mechanisms. So their current product offering includes a heating element capable of starting a fire but no monitoring or cutoff?

amluto 3y ago
From the article, it sounds like there is a temperature sensor, but it’s not enabled in software.
KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
There are lots of hardware features that enable cutoff (such as thermal runaway detection) but that's irrelevant to situations in which the environment has not been prepared for printing. For example, your workshop may be well ventilated during the day and completely closed up at night. All the safety features in the world don't add up to a 100% safe usage experience for any piece of hardware. You don't want your printer doing this for the same reason you don't leave your table saw running when locking up for the night. Technically safe, but unadvisable.
- thfuran 3y ago
  >All the safety features in the world don't add up to a 100% safe usage experience for any piece of hardware Yes, obviously. But that doesn't mean you should omit basic safety features.
  - KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
    Which, they didn't. Per the aforementioned hardware safety features. Extremely broad and reliable rule of thumb: hardware safety features > software safety features
dawnerd 3y ago
They have a physical thermal fuse too that wasn’t mentioned.
thenickdude 3y ago
The temperature of the heating element is regulated, but there can't be thermal sensors on everything. The typical disaster on 3D printers is that the print detaches from the bed and sticks to the nozzle instead, which the printer doesn't notice, and so keeps extruding plastic into this obstruction, resulting in the nozzle being encased in a big blob of plastic. This isn't immediately a fire risk, because the hottest point will still be the nozzle which is temperature-regulated, but due to ongoing mechanical damage you start to risk things like the thermistor and heater wires being damaged, and that can cause havoc. Prusa recently introduced thermal modelling on their printers which detects heating anomalies like this, because the hotend becoming encased in plastic changes the rate of temperature leakage to the environment, and so the required heater power. The idea is that you can catch the issue at a very early stage.

nottorp 3y ago

Incident or no incident, why do these things need the "cloud" to operate?

bboygravity 3y ago
Nothing needs cloud to operate. Cloud is for tracking.
b112 3y ago
I think need just happens. Many users don't have computers, or even a tablet. So the cloud is seen as a requirement, and in the end, no desktop app gets created.
readyplayernull 3y ago
Analytics in the name of safety.
postalrat 3y ago
Because cloud is a feature and features have value.
judge2020 3y ago
They have a way to view your printer's camera iirc. Open ports on your router aren't a good solution anymore especially with individual v4s being removed in some residential deployments.
Filligree 3y ago
Because a print can take multiple days, you’re supposed to keep an eye on, and you might want to leave the house.
- nottorp 3y ago
  ... and because i'm not into 3d printers, i rightfully assumed it's there to make you pay for a subscription or something ;)
  - 3y ago

h2odragon 3y ago

How about we have appliances without remote controls? What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer? Couldn't all the same features be offered with local computing? Isn't "cloud" just a route for trouble for almost all users? I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors" thing anyway. you've got far more direct inputs to monitor. is image recognition truly that reliable or is it not just a source of more errors when the recognition software goes awry?

infocollector 3y ago
I think we need a regulation 1. Any personal images/data sent to cloud need a FDA approval. (FDA = Federal Data Administration) 2. Any person working in this agency is banned for life to work in the private data sector for life (it better be lucrative to work there). 3. ... perhaps fill any loopholes you see here as you move along ... (along with percentage of revenue punishments for each loophole used first time)
- birdyrooster 3y ago
  The summary executions will continue until total privacy is achieved.
- tzs 3y ago
  > 2. Any person working in this agency is banned for life to work in the private data sector for life (it better be lucrative to work there). What about the other way around? Can someone who works in the private data sector leave and go to work for the agency?
- dwaite 3y ago
  > I think we need a regulation 1. Any personal images/data sent to cloud need a FDA approval. (FDA = Federal Data Administration) So not just new regulation, but an entirely new regulatory body. Also, the Food and Drug Administration will have to change their name to something else.
542458 3y ago
Please don’t take the following as an endorsement of Bambu. > What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer? A large print can take 24 hours or more. Offering the ability to walk away and check-in and issue commands remotely is useful to people. (Yes, you shouldn’t leave a printer unattended, but the basic reality is people do leave their printers unattended anyways.) > I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors" thing anyway. I don’t think it’s inconceivable that it could work well. The main issue being monitored for here is “has the print prematurely detached from the bed”, which I’d imagine should be possible to reliably detect with a known camera, angle, and print characteristics.

whynotmaybe 3y ago

Just to be clear, it's possible to print on the Bambu without an internet connection right?

ianschmitz 3y ago
Yes it does support local connection, although in my experience it hasn’t worked well possibly because I have my IoT devices on a separate VLAN.
Filligree 3y ago
Yes, either by SD card or through Wi-Fi.

bbielsa 3y ago

I own a Bambu P1S and Bambu does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case. The cloud (anti-)feature is entirely unnecessary and gives them free license to use all recordings from the webcam in the printer. The printer has to be connected to the “cloud” in order to access the webcam, control the internal lights, and control the print head and heated bed from their Bambu app. However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. They intentionally ruined the user experience in LAN-only mode to persuade people to connect their printers to the Bambu cloud service.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? Unless you are complaining that you can’t use the smartphone app, while at your own home on Wi-Fi, without connecting to the cloud. That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. Finally, while it doesn’t work from the app, you can control those things and view footage using the Bambu Studio desktop app without a cloud connection, IIRC. You just need a PC, not a phone, though I would argue this makes sense as a fair trade-off considering the consumer demographics. A PC would be way more reliable anyway as your phone would be switching onto cell tower networks which obviously don’t have your printer on them. Edit: Also, Bluetooth tops out under perfect conditions at 2.2 Megabits. Real world is far lower. You can’t reliably send a video stream over Bluetooth. Heck, Apple doesn’t even try to send a lossless audio stream over Bluetooth.
- bbielsa 3y ago
  > This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. I may not have made myself clear with my original argument, I meant to say offline controls are clearly possible. So if offline controls are possible there’s 0 excuses for controls not to be available in LAN-only mode. (LAN-only is wifi connected, cloud disabled) > All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? It is way easier to tap a button on the app when dealing with hardware issues than using the built in menus (that’s my opinion). But more importantly there is no valid reason to not make them available in LAN-only mode, that was an intentional decision on their part. > That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. The 3D printing community is pretty technical, so I think anyone disabling cloud mode would be able to understand the consequences. An opt-out (without degrading the experience) is all bambu owners are asking for. And keep in mind 3D printers are a fire hazard so printing while you aren’t home is a risk.

StayTrue 3y ago

I researched Bambu printers before and it seemed, at least at the time, you could not manage it with open source Octoprint. I prefer not to connect my printer to the live network but still want to access it remotely, which Octoprint accomplishes via serial connection.

MegaDeKay 3y ago

Anti-features like this just make me more convinced to get a Voron instead. Open source design, great community, almost infinitely moddable, and at least as capable as the Bambu. You can self-source all the parts or buy kits from various vendors. https://vorondesign.com/ https://vorondesign.com/ However, I say all this as someone that is technically inclined, wants to tinker, and is a fan of the open source. Somebody that wants plug-and-play should definitely look at another printer.

solotronics 3y ago
+1 for Voron project. I recommend first time builders to get a reputable Voron kit, you will save a lot of time creating wiring harnesses and such.
traverseda 3y ago
Voron seems like so much work honestly, and it's still quite expensive.
Kirby64 3y ago
Frankly, with Bambu and other printer vendors out there (Qidi X-Max/X-Plus 3 comes to mind), Vorons are just terrible value these days. You pay 1k (or less, for the Qidi/P1P) and get every single feature that Voron gets, with none of the work. And you get a warranty. And you don't have to tune it. You're basically paying money to get a less capable printer that you have to assemble. If you want to build your own printer for the experience, that's obviously worth something, but it doesn't make sense from a purely financial perspective.
thenickdude 3y ago
Setting up my Voron 2.4 was probably a solid week of work. The parts are cheap but the assembly and tuning is a killer. I'm looking at pre-assembled printers to add additional printers to my fleet, because I'm not keen to repeat that again. That said, the amount of really nice mods for Voron due to its open source design has been fantastic and I already consider several of those to be essential in a new printer...

allenrb 3y ago

I’ve got a Prusa Mk4 and it supports some sort of cloud feature. Can’t tell you more than that because it’s turned off and there it shall stay. I’m able to print perfectly well over the LAN, thank-you-very-much.

LocalH 3y ago

This is a problem borne from several factors. Horrible data policies that monetize every single thing that can be collected, overuse of things like CGNAT that complicate inbound connections, the "residential customers may not run servers" clause found in many ISP ToS, and probably some others that I'm not mentioning. The combination of big government and big tech has normalized so many destructive corporate behaviors, that I fear we will never be able to fix the problem from within the system, nor will a successful revolution ever happen. Humanity is absolutely fucked, if we continue on the current trajectory. And no nation that has any significant influence is without fault. The modern "civilized" world is garbage for the vast majority of individuals.

villgax 3y ago

Screw bamboo with a bamboo

Baeocystin 3y ago

Here's Bambu's response, for the interested: https://blog.bambulab.com/update-for-cloud-downtime/ https://blog.bambulab.com/update-for-cloud-downtime/

jacquesm 3y ago

Don't buy any hardware that requires a cloud connection. I was shopping around for inverters for my solar installation a few months ago and it took some digging but I found a bunch of brands that do not have a mandatory cloud component. Those got the order. There is no way I'm going to hand over the responsibility for the electrical system in my house to some backend developer in a faraway country, nor do I want such gear on my LAN without it being on a completely different segment and without any access to the net. In general anything that contains a heating element or that generates or uses power in the KW range should not be internet accessible. Too many griefers in this world.