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> Now, if only they had something for NEETs over job corps's age limit.... A bit ironic that the cut off is 24 and the rough age of full brain maturity is 25 (

> Now, if only they had something for NEETs over job corps's age limit.... A bit ironic that the cut off is 24 and the rough age of full brain maturity is 25 (and loss of parental insurance is 26). So the young adults that had poor/no guidance or made poor decisions in youth don’t get this opportunity once they get their head on straight and realize they need to acquire some skills (pretty common character arc for young men, at least in my circles).

jvanderbot 3y ago
After 24 you qualify for significantly more financial aid for traditional or tech schools, because you are considered a "non traditional student". Source: used this to get my PhD coming from factory work. Regret nothing.
- da02 3y ago
  Can you elaborate what financial aid you qualified for after 24? How did you discover it? Word-of-mouth or Google searches?
  - the_only_law 3y ago
    Not sure if this is what they meant, but I believe the financial aid system considers you to be a “dependent” if you’re under 24 period. Regardless of your tax filing status or anything else save for a few extreme circumstances. This means, that until 24, any aid you get is calculated based on your parents’ income + your income. Even if you’ve been fully independent since 18. Combined with the laughable EFC calculations, this often means less aid available. Of course if you make a middle class income, you probably still won’t qualify for any useful aid after 24.
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      IIRC there are two exceptions to FAFSA being considered dependent if you're under 24 One is if you are an emancipated adult. The other being if you're married.
      - syedkarim 3y ago
        I believe military service also qualifies a student as being financially independent.
        goodkittie396 3y ago
        You are so right about that. Hooah! Sidenote: If you have gone to boot camp, then the college can waive all the fitness class requirements. First time go!
        the_only_law 3y ago
        Do colleges usually have fitness class requirements? I’ve never seen that in any GenEd section of a degree program?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        Columbia does if you're in the College (aka 90% of students)
        toast0 3y ago
        My california community college did, and I believe it's a requirement for UC and CSU as well. I don't think the private engineering school I transfered to did; because I don't recall anyone complaining about it. But at least at community college there were many options. Table tennis once a week for one semester wasn't a huge burden.
        erikerikson 3y ago
        Yes, military service emancipates you for FAFSA purposes.
        mjn 3y ago
        There are a few others as well. As of the 2023-2024 cycle, there are 13 ways to be considered independent (any one of them suffices), according to the official list [1]. To summarize them here: 1. Born before Jan 1, 2000; 2. Married; 3. Will be attending grad school [2]; 4. Active-duty U.S. military; 5. U.S. military veteran; 6. Have dependent children; 7. Have live-in dependents other than children; 8. Both parents deceased and/or were a foster child or a ward of the court after age 13; 9. Current or former emancipated minor; 10. Legal guardian is someone other than parent or stepparent; 11,12,13. Homeless or at-risk-of-homelessness within the past year (three different routes of determination). [1] https://studentaid.gov/2324/help/need-parent-info https://studentaid.gov/2324/help/need-parent-info [2] Graduate students in the U.S. generally don't get the kind of need-based financial aid that undergrads do, though, so this one is often not very helpful.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    https://studentaid.gov/help-center/answers/article/independent-student https://studentaid.gov/help-center/answers/article/independe...
- experimental123 3y ago
  That's very useful information. How did you go about finding resources for non-traditional students?
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    FAFSA is 90% of job. Then apply for scholarships. Never take private loans. Work as much as you can to borrow low, but do what you need to do to get through. Choose a major that will make you money. In my time, factors like age mattered as much as other factors that separated you from "the usual". Nowadays that may not be the case.
colechristensen 3y ago
I really wish people would stop with the “brain maturity” age thing.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Is it your impression that the brain isn't an organ that develops from birth and reaches maturity at some point?
  - colechristensen 3y ago
    No, my issue is that people are implicitly or more often explicitly saying that folks shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves or be responsible for their actions until they're 25. The progressive infantilization of people troubles me. That you have to spend a third of your life in this state is ridiculous. It is also self-fulfilling. People only stop acting like children when you stop treating them like children.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
      In my experience people will act like children regardless of your own behavior…
    - theptip 3y ago
      Agreed with the general thrust here; I read something recently from a scientist in the field that the 25 number is completely made up. It doesn’t come from any objective metric. That said the idea that you do most of your growing up before 25, but still do some of it 18-24 should not be controversial. I wouldn’t use that observation to deny education/apprenticeship benefits from anyone though.
    - dtjb 3y ago
      Pithy quotes don't drive policy, science does. We can preach tough love as much as we want but it doesn't change the physical reality of adolescent brain morphometry. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
sramam 3y ago
Even if you are age eligible, the "qualifications": > You may NOT be eligible for Job Corps if you: > - Use drugs illegally under federal law > - Exhibit behavioral problems that could prevent you or others from success in Job Corps > - Have certain criminal convictions or require court supervision If you have done any of these before 24, chances are really high that you were otherwise disadvantaged in life. And it's not going to get much easier.
- l33t7332273 3y ago
  I don’t think using drugs under age 24 generally means there is a really high chance that you were disadvantaged in life
  - sramam 3y ago
    That's a good point. In a general sense, I agree with you. I made the comment in the context of: If you need a program like this between 16-24 AND you are doing drugs, it's much more likely than not that disadvantages have been heaped upon your life.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  By your math half of all people are disadvantaged. Half of all teens report using drugs at least once. https://www.caron.org/addiction-101/teens-young-adults/statistics-and-demographics https://www.caron.org/addiction-101/teens-young-adults/stati...
  - thayne 3y ago
    There is a difference between "has used a drug at some point in your life" and "are actively using drugs".
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      The phrase "are actively using drugs" does not appear in your parent comment. I agree there is a difference between those 2 statements. But you never made the quoted statement.
nradov 3y ago
That thing about full brain maturity at 25 is a myth. https://www.iflscience.com/does-the-brain-really-mature-at-the-age-of-25-68979 https://www.iflscience.com/does-the-brain-really-mature-at-t...
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Linked article doesn't fully support the "myth" so much as an overstatement of the evidence; there is clear evidence that certain parts of the brain reach stop growing in volume around that age (earlier for women). There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though.
  - brightlancer 3y ago
    Individuals develop at different rates and also _start_ at different points: a child born a month early will always be a month behind, though this is far less significant at 10yo than 10mo, and that month gets lost over time in the natural variation of development. Also, the idea that girls mature faster than boys is a much more a myth; girls mature _physically_ faster than boys but not psychologically. > There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though. Ish. There are behavioral patterns which run parallel to it, most obvious with young male aggression which plateaus in the late 20s before trending down.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      The volume of certain parts of the brain is physical?

jvanderbot 3y ago

After 24 you qualify for significantly more financial aid for traditional or tech schools, because you are considered a "non traditional student". Source: used this to get my PhD coming from factory work. Regret nothing.

da02 3y ago
Can you elaborate what financial aid you qualified for after 24? How did you discover it? Word-of-mouth or Google searches?
- the_only_law 3y ago
  Not sure if this is what they meant, but I believe the financial aid system considers you to be a “dependent” if you’re under 24 period. Regardless of your tax filing status or anything else save for a few extreme circumstances. This means, that until 24, any aid you get is calculated based on your parents’ income + your income. Even if you’ve been fully independent since 18. Combined with the laughable EFC calculations, this often means less aid available. Of course if you make a middle class income, you probably still won’t qualify for any useful aid after 24.
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    IIRC there are two exceptions to FAFSA being considered dependent if you're under 24 One is if you are an emancipated adult. The other being if you're married.
    - syedkarim 3y ago
      I believe military service also qualifies a student as being financially independent.
      - goodkittie396 3y ago
        You are so right about that. Hooah! Sidenote: If you have gone to boot camp, then the college can waive all the fitness class requirements. First time go!
        the_only_law 3y ago
        Do colleges usually have fitness class requirements? I’ve never seen that in any GenEd section of a degree program?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        Columbia does if you're in the College (aka 90% of students)
        toast0 3y ago
        My california community college did, and I believe it's a requirement for UC and CSU as well. I don't think the private engineering school I transfered to did; because I don't recall anyone complaining about it. But at least at community college there were many options. Table tennis once a week for one semester wasn't a huge burden.
      - erikerikson 3y ago
        Yes, military service emancipates you for FAFSA purposes.
        mjn 3y ago
        There are a few others as well. As of the 2023-2024 cycle, there are 13 ways to be considered independent (any one of them suffices), according to the official list [1]. To summarize them here: 1. Born before Jan 1, 2000; 2. Married; 3. Will be attending grad school [2]; 4. Active-duty U.S. military; 5. U.S. military veteran; 6. Have dependent children; 7. Have live-in dependents other than children; 8. Both parents deceased and/or were a foster child or a ward of the court after age 13; 9. Current or former emancipated minor; 10. Legal guardian is someone other than parent or stepparent; 11,12,13. Homeless or at-risk-of-homelessness within the past year (three different routes of determination). [1] https://studentaid.gov/2324/help/need-parent-info https://studentaid.gov/2324/help/need-parent-info [2] Graduate students in the U.S. generally don't get the kind of need-based financial aid that undergrads do, though, so this one is often not very helpful.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  https://studentaid.gov/help-center/answers/article/independent-student https://studentaid.gov/help-center/answers/article/independe...
experimental123 3y ago
That's very useful information. How did you go about finding resources for non-traditional students?
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  FAFSA is 90% of job. Then apply for scholarships. Never take private loans. Work as much as you can to borrow low, but do what you need to do to get through. Choose a major that will make you money. In my time, factors like age mattered as much as other factors that separated you from "the usual". Nowadays that may not be the case.

colechristensen 3y ago

I really wish people would stop with the “brain maturity” age thing.

FredPret 3y ago
Is it your impression that the brain isn't an organ that develops from birth and reaches maturity at some point?
- colechristensen 3y ago
  No, my issue is that people are implicitly or more often explicitly saying that folks shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves or be responsible for their actions until they're 25. The progressive infantilization of people troubles me. That you have to spend a third of your life in this state is ridiculous. It is also self-fulfilling. People only stop acting like children when you stop treating them like children.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
    In my experience people will act like children regardless of your own behavior…
  - theptip 3y ago
    Agreed with the general thrust here; I read something recently from a scientist in the field that the 25 number is completely made up. It doesn’t come from any objective metric. That said the idea that you do most of your growing up before 25, but still do some of it 18-24 should not be controversial. I wouldn’t use that observation to deny education/apprenticeship benefits from anyone though.
  - dtjb 3y ago
    Pithy quotes don't drive policy, science does. We can preach tough love as much as we want but it doesn't change the physical reality of adolescent brain morphometry. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

sramam 3y ago

Even if you are age eligible, the "qualifications": > You may NOT be eligible for Job Corps if you: > - Use drugs illegally under federal law > - Exhibit behavioral problems that could prevent you or others from success in Job Corps > - Have certain criminal convictions or require court supervision If you have done any of these before 24, chances are really high that you were otherwise disadvantaged in life. And it's not going to get much easier.

l33t7332273 3y ago
I don’t think using drugs under age 24 generally means there is a really high chance that you were disadvantaged in life
- sramam 3y ago
  That's a good point. In a general sense, I agree with you. I made the comment in the context of: If you need a program like this between 16-24 AND you are doing drugs, it's much more likely than not that disadvantages have been heaped upon your life.
iancmceachern 3y ago
By your math half of all people are disadvantaged. Half of all teens report using drugs at least once. https://www.caron.org/addiction-101/teens-young-adults/statistics-and-demographics https://www.caron.org/addiction-101/teens-young-adults/stati...
- thayne 3y ago
  There is a difference between "has used a drug at some point in your life" and "are actively using drugs".
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    The phrase "are actively using drugs" does not appear in your parent comment. I agree there is a difference between those 2 statements. But you never made the quoted statement.

nradov 3y ago

That thing about full brain maturity at 25 is a myth. https://www.iflscience.com/does-the-brain-really-mature-at-the-age-of-25-68979 https://www.iflscience.com/does-the-brain-really-mature-at-t...

aidenn0 3y ago
Linked article doesn't fully support the "myth" so much as an overstatement of the evidence; there is clear evidence that certain parts of the brain reach stop growing in volume around that age (earlier for women). There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  Individuals develop at different rates and also _start_ at different points: a child born a month early will always be a month behind, though this is far less significant at 10yo than 10mo, and that month gets lost over time in the natural variation of development. Also, the idea that girls mature faster than boys is a much more a myth; girls mature _physically_ faster than boys but not psychologically. > There isn't great evidence linking that to anything behavioral though. Ish. There are behavioral patterns which run parallel to it, most obvious with young male aggression which plateaus in the late 20s before trending down.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    The volume of certain parts of the brain is physical?