4 ms·

For that to be true, you'd need to establish that blood oxygen levels differ significantly across altitude adapted individuals, and I don't believe that this is

For that to be true, you'd need to establish that blood oxygen levels differ significantly across altitude adapted individuals, and I don't believe that this is the case. Also, when I first moved from Philadelphia to a village in New Mexico at 6000', I remember reading that I should plan on a 3 phase adapative process that would take as much as 9 months to complete. This makes me give less weight to things like the 2005 Marines study that Renshaw cites, which only continued for 90 days. I should stress that I'm not doubting the statistics, just the proposed mechanism ("low oxygen air"). On the other hand, "varying ability to fully adapt to lower oxygen levels" seems more plausible.

webdoodle 3y ago
I agree. Low oxygen just doesn't make sense. It's more likely the higher cosmic rays and other space weather, which are already known to cause suicidal thoughts, as well as other mental health problems.
- jddj 3y ago
  I think that warrants a citation
  - webdoodle 3y ago
    https://biomedres.us/pdfs/BJSTR.MS.ID.003709.pdf https://biomedres.us/pdfs/BJSTR.MS.ID.003709.pdf
  - JohnDeHope 3y ago
    This makes me think. What if there was a database of conjectures. Each has an id number. The database could link to all sorts of media, scientific studies, etc. supporting or disputing each conjecture. Then you could just give the id number and folks would also get all the pro and con material they might like. Even things like "the earth is a sphere" could link to educational videos and whatnot. And even things like "political leaders who I disapprove of are in fact lizard aliens" could link to whatever material supports or disproves it. It'd be nice too if we could categorize these things: disputed, hypothetical, scientifically studied but not independently verified, multiple independent validations, technologies rely on the fact that this works, etc. I dunno why your point made me think of that.
    - aorloff 3y ago
      Its called reddit
    - gregw134 3y ago
      Sounds like Snopes.com
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      It's not particularly good, but you could look at procon.org I think there are a few other similar sites.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      In the age of the internet, lack of knowledge about something is a choice. People who believe Obama is a lizard alien don't do so because they haven't seen the appropriate "educational" video, but because that's what confirms what they want to believe.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
        What about people who do (or do not) believe that socialism is the future of America?
    - cellis 3y ago
      In a way, what you’ve described sounds an awful lot like the transformer architecture…
lp251 3y ago
Did you ever fully acclimate? After 3 years at 6000 ft I still had lower blood oxygen than at sea level. (per apple watch, so take that with a grain of salt)
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  I haven't measured my blood oxygen, alas. I've been here 4+ years now, and other than being 4 years older and just coming out of a sedentary 3 year period, I notice zero effects of living (and running, cycling, swimming, hiking) at altitude. Can't say any more than that really.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    Hmmm, given that...it does seem to me the initial claim is likely to be true. I know you said that it has to vary between multiple individuals at altitude, but it's unclear to me why. Don't we just have to show some individuals don't ever get back up to the same blood oxygen levels?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Well, another comment here from a guy of Sammi ancestry notes potential polymorphism in GHC1 as possible (and likely) partial explanation. I would imagine that there are a variety of potential genetic differences that could generate a wide range of altitude-adaptation differences.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  Isn’t Apple Watch and other blood oxygenation just measuring saturation (a relative measure)? Among other things, Acclimatization involves producing more blood-oxygen carrying capacity (or less if you go back to sea level), which is an absolute measure, not a relative one that the oximeters would pick up.
- scoofy 3y ago
  Yea, we would only need a small percentage of folks unable to acclimate to create a significant correlation.
kulahan 3y ago
Why would you need to show that? I don't see anything that requires blood oxygen levels to be significantly different to get from "people at high elevation have access to less oxygen" to "living in lower-oxygen environments creates the right conditions to see serotonin go down and dopamine go up". Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  You'd need to show it because for O2 levels to matter, it would need to be the O2 levels experienced by cells that are different. But because of the body's adaptive mechanisms, it is possible for cellular O2 availability to remain (relatively) constant despite living in a depleted O2 environment. Your cells cannot measure environmental O2 levels - only what is available from the bloodstream. Ergo, if sufficient adaptation has taken place - and it may not have - then as far as the body is concerned, there is no depleted O2 environment.
  - kulahan 3y ago
    >Ergo, if sufficient adaptation has taken place - and it may not have This tiny little caveat is the entire point of my comment. Happy to converse about other stuff, but it's a tangential topic at best. >You'd need to show it because for O2 levels to matter, it would need to be the O2 levels experienced by cells that are different. Right, and some of your body's cells are experiencing it differently. How... else would your body know to respond?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Suppose you had an internal combustion engine that functions well in 20.9% O2, but very poorly in 19.2% O2. Then a mechanic shows up a lever you can pull that alters the way the engine intakes and processes O2. You move it a bit, and all of a sudden, the engine now functions just as well in 19.2% O2 as 20.9% O2. Now imagine that the engine can measure its own performance, and can move the lever itself ...

webdoodle 3y ago

I agree. Low oxygen just doesn't make sense. It's more likely the higher cosmic rays and other space weather, which are already known to cause suicidal thoughts, as well as other mental health problems.

jddj 3y ago
I think that warrants a citation
- webdoodle 3y ago
  https://biomedres.us/pdfs/BJSTR.MS.ID.003709.pdf https://biomedres.us/pdfs/BJSTR.MS.ID.003709.pdf
- JohnDeHope 3y ago
  This makes me think. What if there was a database of conjectures. Each has an id number. The database could link to all sorts of media, scientific studies, etc. supporting or disputing each conjecture. Then you could just give the id number and folks would also get all the pro and con material they might like. Even things like "the earth is a sphere" could link to educational videos and whatnot. And even things like "political leaders who I disapprove of are in fact lizard aliens" could link to whatever material supports or disproves it. It'd be nice too if we could categorize these things: disputed, hypothetical, scientifically studied but not independently verified, multiple independent validations, technologies rely on the fact that this works, etc. I dunno why your point made me think of that.
  - aorloff 3y ago
    Its called reddit
  - gregw134 3y ago
    Sounds like Snopes.com
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    It's not particularly good, but you could look at procon.org I think there are a few other similar sites.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    In the age of the internet, lack of knowledge about something is a choice. People who believe Obama is a lizard alien don't do so because they haven't seen the appropriate "educational" video, but because that's what confirms what they want to believe.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      What about people who do (or do not) believe that socialism is the future of America?
  - cellis 3y ago
    In a way, what you’ve described sounds an awful lot like the transformer architecture…

lp251 3y ago

Did you ever fully acclimate? After 3 years at 6000 ft I still had lower blood oxygen than at sea level. (per apple watch, so take that with a grain of salt)

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
I haven't measured my blood oxygen, alas. I've been here 4+ years now, and other than being 4 years older and just coming out of a sedentary 3 year period, I notice zero effects of living (and running, cycling, swimming, hiking) at altitude. Can't say any more than that really.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Hmmm, given that...it does seem to me the initial claim is likely to be true. I know you said that it has to vary between multiple individuals at altitude, but it's unclear to me why. Don't we just have to show some individuals don't ever get back up to the same blood oxygen levels?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Well, another comment here from a guy of Sammi ancestry notes potential polymorphism in GHC1 as possible (and likely) partial explanation. I would imagine that there are a variety of potential genetic differences that could generate a wide range of altitude-adaptation differences.
Scoundreller 3y ago
Isn’t Apple Watch and other blood oxygenation just measuring saturation (a relative measure)? Among other things, Acclimatization involves producing more blood-oxygen carrying capacity (or less if you go back to sea level), which is an absolute measure, not a relative one that the oximeters would pick up.
scoofy 3y ago
Yea, we would only need a small percentage of folks unable to acclimate to create a significant correlation.

kulahan 3y ago

Why would you need to show that? I don't see anything that requires blood oxygen levels to be significantly different to get from "people at high elevation have access to less oxygen" to "living in lower-oxygen environments creates the right conditions to see serotonin go down and dopamine go up". Even if oxygen levels are identical once you get to the blood stream, it can cause many changes further up the process.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
You'd need to show it because for O2 levels to matter, it would need to be the O2 levels experienced by cells that are different. But because of the body's adaptive mechanisms, it is possible for cellular O2 availability to remain (relatively) constant despite living in a depleted O2 environment. Your cells cannot measure environmental O2 levels - only what is available from the bloodstream. Ergo, if sufficient adaptation has taken place - and it may not have - then as far as the body is concerned, there is no depleted O2 environment.
- kulahan 3y ago
  >Ergo, if sufficient adaptation has taken place - and it may not have This tiny little caveat is the entire point of my comment. Happy to converse about other stuff, but it's a tangential topic at best. >You'd need to show it because for O2 levels to matter, it would need to be the O2 levels experienced by cells that are different. Right, and some of your body's cells are experiencing it differently. How... else would your body know to respond?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Suppose you had an internal combustion engine that functions well in 20.9% O2, but very poorly in 19.2% O2. Then a mechanic shows up a lever you can pull that alters the way the engine intakes and processes O2. You move it a bit, and all of a sudden, the engine now functions just as well in 19.2% O2 as 20.9% O2. Now imagine that the engine can measure its own performance, and can move the lever itself ...