4 ms·

TL;DR: it's because Israel's government is no longer a democracy. I wonder if politicians will ever learn that turning countries into fascist dictatorships is

by lisper 3y ago

TL;DR: it's because Israel's government is no longer a democracy. I wonder if politicians will ever learn that turning countries into fascist dictatorships is bad for business.

esafak 3y ago
Does anybody have a demographic breakdown of political sentiment in Israel?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  It would be interesting to see some polling. I have friends in Israel who are super involved in protest, and that’s all I hear when I talk to them. But I have also spent a lot of time hitchhiking or cycling in Israel, and that outrage just isn’t shared by most of the ordinary people I meet, whether they be non-religious, Orthodox, Haredim, or Druze, or whether they be a resident of Israel proper or a West Bank settler. I start to wonder if the outraged Israelis are a bit like the hipsters in my own country: loud on social media, nearly insignificant in the real world.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    actually polling shows that like 67% of population against reforms. even within likud voters, like 60% are against (likud used to be liberal-right party)
  - chpatrick 3y ago
    Ordinary people being complacent is more of a sign (and a root cause) of an autocratic country than not if you ask me. I live in Hungary and it's the same here.
    - esafak 3y ago
      Strongmen can get voted in and tilt the scales to stay in power. In the face of that, it is rational for the minority in disagreement to acquiesce, so I am not sure the causality runs in the direction you suggest.
      - chpatrick 3y ago
        It's a process. People put up with one overreach or blatant corruption here or there and ten years later they're stuck with a permanent mafia state. It's what you get when you have apathetic people who don't pay attention or take any part in politics. The crooks take over, which itself breeds more apathy ("it sucks but what can I do"). The "ordinary people" vote for this every four years.
  - mgbmtl 3y ago
    Isn't the outrage very visible in the streets of Israel (recurrent mass-protests)? I consider that different than outrage limited to social media. I'm not very familiar with the issue, but in any case, a majority rule that ignores strong oppositions from minority voters can be dangerous for democracies. It is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner (old saying, not mine).
  - mikrl 3y ago
    Based on the videos I’ve seen of the protests, Israelis are on par with the French for the… spiritedness of civil disorder.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
If the actions of business aren’t material collectively, why would government care? We’re not talking hundreds of thousands of jobs, but more likely a few thousand. I’m sure it’s disappointing to discover you don’t have pull you thought you did as a small business community. Such is life. The counterparty with the least to lose usually wins.
- ekanes 3y ago
  If you think about now, you're right. If you look forwards and can say that some percentage of these companies might be giants in the future, then it's worth paying attention to.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  If Israel loses its tech entrepeneurs that will be a very big deal for Israel. This is something like 18% of the economy and it's doubled over the last decade.
justrealist 3y ago
To be clear — the judicial reforms do not seem like a good idea, if for no reason other than the mass discontent about it. But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature. Perhaps even most of them. The problem these startups have is that the government has been democratically elected, but the demographics are swinging religious populists into increasingly permanent control. That's democratic! But it's the consequence of ultraconservatives having 12 children when liberals have 2. Let's use a more precise term for what they don't like.
- kunwon1 3y ago
  > But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature I'd be interested in learning about any examples. I don't know enough about global politics to even hazard a guess
  - eatonphil 3y ago
    The UK, maybe. https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judiciary/ https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judicia... > The UK is traditionally thought to have one such system, as under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty the UK Parliament is the supreme source of authority: whatever the democratically elected representatives decide upon is law, and if expressed in an Act of Parliament cannot be overturned by the courts. And maybe more broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty. But it seems like it's sort of on the way out everywhere.
    - mejutoco 3y ago
      I know it is a formality, etc, but from the same source https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-other-institutions/parliament-crown/ https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-othe... Royal Assent When a Bill has been approved by a majority in the House of Commons and the House of Lords it is formally agreed to by the Crown. This is known as the Royal Assent. This turns a Bill into an Act of Parliament, allowing it to become law in the UK.
labster 3y ago
Uh… fascism is traditionally pro-business. It’s political instability which is bad for business.
- morkalork 3y ago
  Pro-business only when it's run by them and their friends. There are plenty of examples from Nazi-Germany and modern day Russia where businesses had their existing owners/management replaced by party members/political insiders.
  - orwin 3y ago
    If your business have enough impact (ie if you were an industry owner in Nazi Germany), you automatically became insider (yes, even Jews for a time). Small business though, it was better to be friend with small local powers.
    - morkalork 3y ago
      I remember reading about one case where a small busines owner's establishment was vandalized because people wrongly thought he was a jew. His reaction was to clear up the perceived misunderstanding by joining the party. It actually turned out to be profitable for him at first because of the connections he made, but, he was also obliged to continue working with them as well. Even when he didn't want to, because he owed his success to party. The whole thing read like a mafia story.
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    Krystal Nacht being a prime example
- barbazoo 3y ago
  Facism can also come with lack of rule of law which is undesirable for capital.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
yonibot 3y ago
The country is neither fascist nor a dictatorship. However, the legal overhaul does curtail the court's ability to assert a more libertarian, liberal agenda. The government is pushing a religious agenda that will change the nature of the country, and that causes significant consternation to the largely secular population that makes up the hi-tech nation.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  No but its moving there, you don't need to be political expert to see it. Its also not a matter of past few months. Its a country in quite an unique situation which I don't fully comprehend so can't comment much, but West bank situation is beyond sad and I don't see any hope for improvement.
  - h3rsko 3y ago
    How is it moving there? By making supreme court justices be appointed by elected officials (like most other democracies) as apposed to being a self selecting group.
- orwin 3y ago
  Its missing two salient points to be fascist: the myth of national rebirth and the accusations against 'internal enemies' (although it seems this point is missing a bit less). Still, Israel is about as authoritarian as France/Hungary and a bit less than Turkiye. Hardly the worst but still.
  - LeoNatan25 3y ago
    If you listen to political rhetoric from the ruling party and the far right coalition parties, anyone who doesn't agree with them, their crazy ideology or sing high praises to the supreme leader, is a traitor. This has been the case for a decade now, getting worse and worse. How long before they pass "anti-traitor" laws, making political dissent illegal? With the supreme court unable to protect citizen rights, there is literally nothing to stop such laws. But judging from some comments here, that's a "liberal agenda".
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
el_nahual 3y ago
It should go without saying that the 5 million Palestinians living in (Israel+Palestine), who make up 30% of the combined population, did not live in a democracy even before these changes.
- invalidname 3y ago
  That isn't accurate. 2.6M are Israeli citizens, they vote etc. Discriminated, yes. But there are laws against that and they are enforced. 3M are in the occupied territories which are technically not a part of Israel so they "technically" don't live in Israel. This is terrible I agree. But this goes both ways. Thanks to the fact that they're not a part of Israel they can become an independent state at some point. In fact, a lot of what's going on right now is because of the rift within Israeli society which is torn apart about this whole mess.
- slg 3y ago
  I'm not diminishing the plight of the Palestinians, but their situation is not a sign that Israel isn't/wasn't a democracy. It is pretty easy for democracies to end up abusing a minority of their citizens. That is one of the central flaws of democracy, tyranny of the majority.

by lisper 3y ago

TL;DR: it's because Israel's government is no longer a democracy. I wonder if politicians will ever learn that turning countries into fascist dictatorships is bad for business.

esafak 3y ago

Does anybody have a demographic breakdown of political sentiment in Israel?

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
It would be interesting to see some polling. I have friends in Israel who are super involved in protest, and that’s all I hear when I talk to them. But I have also spent a lot of time hitchhiking or cycling in Israel, and that outrage just isn’t shared by most of the ordinary people I meet, whether they be non-religious, Orthodox, Haredim, or Druze, or whether they be a resident of Israel proper or a West Bank settler. I start to wonder if the outraged Israelis are a bit like the hipsters in my own country: loud on social media, nearly insignificant in the real world.
- tguvot 3y ago
  actually polling shows that like 67% of population against reforms. even within likud voters, like 60% are against (likud used to be liberal-right party)
- chpatrick 3y ago
  Ordinary people being complacent is more of a sign (and a root cause) of an autocratic country than not if you ask me. I live in Hungary and it's the same here.
  - esafak 3y ago
    Strongmen can get voted in and tilt the scales to stay in power. In the face of that, it is rational for the minority in disagreement to acquiesce, so I am not sure the causality runs in the direction you suggest.
    - chpatrick 3y ago
      It's a process. People put up with one overreach or blatant corruption here or there and ten years later they're stuck with a permanent mafia state. It's what you get when you have apathetic people who don't pay attention or take any part in politics. The crooks take over, which itself breeds more apathy ("it sucks but what can I do"). The "ordinary people" vote for this every four years.
- mgbmtl 3y ago
  Isn't the outrage very visible in the streets of Israel (recurrent mass-protests)? I consider that different than outrage limited to social media. I'm not very familiar with the issue, but in any case, a majority rule that ignores strong oppositions from minority voters can be dangerous for democracies. It is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner (old saying, not mine).
- mikrl 3y ago
  Based on the videos I’ve seen of the protests, Israelis are on par with the French for the… spiritedness of civil disorder.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

If the actions of business aren’t material collectively, why would government care? We’re not talking hundreds of thousands of jobs, but more likely a few thousand. I’m sure it’s disappointing to discover you don’t have pull you thought you did as a small business community. Such is life. The counterparty with the least to lose usually wins.

ekanes 3y ago
If you think about now, you're right. If you look forwards and can say that some percentage of these companies might be giants in the future, then it's worth paying attention to.
matthewdgreen 3y ago
If Israel loses its tech entrepeneurs that will be a very big deal for Israel. This is something like 18% of the economy and it's doubled over the last decade.

justrealist 3y ago

To be clear — the judicial reforms do not seem like a good idea, if for no reason other than the mass discontent about it. But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature. Perhaps even most of them. The problem these startups have is that the government has been democratically elected, but the demographics are swinging religious populists into increasingly permanent control. That's democratic! But it's the consequence of ultraconservatives having 12 children when liberals have 2. Let's use a more precise term for what they don't like.

kunwon1 3y ago
> But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature I'd be interested in learning about any examples. I don't know enough about global politics to even hazard a guess
- eatonphil 3y ago
  The UK, maybe. https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judiciary/ https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judicia... > The UK is traditionally thought to have one such system, as under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty the UK Parliament is the supreme source of authority: whatever the democratically elected representatives decide upon is law, and if expressed in an Act of Parliament cannot be overturned by the courts. And maybe more broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty. But it seems like it's sort of on the way out everywhere.
  - mejutoco 3y ago
    I know it is a formality, etc, but from the same source https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-other-institutions/parliament-crown/ https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-othe... Royal Assent When a Bill has been approved by a majority in the House of Commons and the House of Lords it is formally agreed to by the Crown. This is known as the Royal Assent. This turns a Bill into an Act of Parliament, allowing it to become law in the UK.

labster 3y ago

Uh… fascism is traditionally pro-business. It’s political instability which is bad for business.

morkalork 3y ago
Pro-business only when it's run by them and their friends. There are plenty of examples from Nazi-Germany and modern day Russia where businesses had their existing owners/management replaced by party members/political insiders.
- orwin 3y ago
  If your business have enough impact (ie if you were an industry owner in Nazi Germany), you automatically became insider (yes, even Jews for a time). Small business though, it was better to be friend with small local powers.
  - morkalork 3y ago
    I remember reading about one case where a small busines owner's establishment was vandalized because people wrongly thought he was a jew. His reaction was to clear up the perceived misunderstanding by joining the party. It actually turned out to be profitable for him at first because of the connections he made, but, he was also obliged to continue working with them as well. Even when he didn't want to, because he owed his success to party. The whole thing read like a mafia story.
- downrightmike 3y ago
  Krystal Nacht being a prime example
barbazoo 3y ago
Facism can also come with lack of rule of law which is undesirable for capital.
- edgyquant 3y ago

yonibot 3y ago

The country is neither fascist nor a dictatorship. However, the legal overhaul does curtail the court's ability to assert a more libertarian, liberal agenda. The government is pushing a religious agenda that will change the nature of the country, and that causes significant consternation to the largely secular population that makes up the hi-tech nation.

saiya-jin 3y ago
No but its moving there, you don't need to be political expert to see it. Its also not a matter of past few months. Its a country in quite an unique situation which I don't fully comprehend so can't comment much, but West bank situation is beyond sad and I don't see any hope for improvement.
- h3rsko 3y ago
  How is it moving there? By making supreme court justices be appointed by elected officials (like most other democracies) as apposed to being a self selecting group.
orwin 3y ago
Its missing two salient points to be fascist: the myth of national rebirth and the accusations against 'internal enemies' (although it seems this point is missing a bit less). Still, Israel is about as authoritarian as France/Hungary and a bit less than Turkiye. Hardly the worst but still.
- LeoNatan25 3y ago
  If you listen to political rhetoric from the ruling party and the far right coalition parties, anyone who doesn't agree with them, their crazy ideology or sing high praises to the supreme leader, is a traitor. This has been the case for a decade now, getting worse and worse. How long before they pass "anti-traitor" laws, making political dissent illegal? With the supreme court unable to protect citizen rights, there is literally nothing to stop such laws. But judging from some comments here, that's a "liberal agenda".

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

el_nahual 3y ago

It should go without saying that the 5 million Palestinians living in (Israel+Palestine), who make up 30% of the combined population, did not live in a democracy even before these changes.

invalidname 3y ago
That isn't accurate. 2.6M are Israeli citizens, they vote etc. Discriminated, yes. But there are laws against that and they are enforced. 3M are in the occupied territories which are technically not a part of Israel so they "technically" don't live in Israel. This is terrible I agree. But this goes both ways. Thanks to the fact that they're not a part of Israel they can become an independent state at some point. In fact, a lot of what's going on right now is because of the rift within Israeli society which is torn apart about this whole mess.
slg 3y ago
I'm not diminishing the plight of the Palestinians, but their situation is not a sign that Israel isn't/wasn't a democracy. It is pretty easy for democracies to end up abusing a minority of their citizens. That is one of the central flaws of democracy, tyranny of the majority.