4 ms·

UPS CEO says drivers will avg $170k in pay and benefits at end of 5-year deal

26 points by koolba 3y ago

SanderNL 3y ago
170k over.. five years? I’m not getting it.
- Zircom 3y ago
  Unions will usually negotiate salaries and pay-raises for several years in advance, e.g. $5000 raise every year for 5 years. So by the end of 5 years their average salary+benefits will reach $170,000.
- d1sxeyes 3y ago
  They are saying that it will take them 5 years to get to the point where this is true. If you read the article, you see that in 5 years' time, they expect the average hourly pay for FTEs to be 49 USD. That works out at around 100K/year, plus whatever benefits and pension contributions are made on the employee's behalf. Details aren't in the article and 70K of benefits and pension contributions seems high, but not completely implausible. What ACTUALLY happens over 5 years is a different question.
hef19898 3y ago
Instead of taking the CEOs (!) word at face value, as a journalist one could also ask for the details of the deal from Teamsters and do the the math yourself. I am allowed to dream, right? Edit: German collectively bargained salary tables are public. As are the contracts behind them.
- icegreentea2 3y ago
  I believe the tentative master agreements are here: https://teamster.org/ups-ta-2023-2028/ https://teamster.org/ups-ta-2023-2028/
matthewfelgate 3y ago
Isn't this a bit ridiculous pay for a delivery driver?! The average Public School Teacher salary in the United States is $56,937
- xenospn 3y ago
  Have you tried being a delivery driver?
  - IAmGraydon 3y ago
    So tired of hearing this nonsense reply. How physically taxing a job is doesn’t determine its value.
    - jckahn 3y ago
      Have you tried living without delivery drivers?
      - IAmGraydon 3y ago
        Not the point, and you clearly have a loose grip on economics. Have you tried living without water? No? Would you pay $170,000 per year for it?
        quickthrower2 3y ago
        /remind me 2050
        danbruc 3y ago
        Value is what people are willing to pay but that is not what should primarily determine prices, they should be primarily determined by the costs of production. That is what competition is for, driving the profits to zero and the prices towards production costs. The value of water is very high, people would pay any price because otherwise they would die of thirst. The price on the other hand is low because the costs of production are low. The explanation why the price reflect the costs and not the value in this case, you can pick on your own, maybe competition, maybe the expectation of people with pitchforks if you try to get rich by selling water for $100 per liter, maybe regulations, ... probably a combination of several things.
wdb 3y ago
Maybe I should switch jobs. Can imagine this is a more relaxing and healthy job
- dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
  Better that fixing a kubernates yaml configuration for sure.
bsder 3y ago
Average is thrown off by the outliers. What you want is the median. However, they're also counting all benefits (and probably significantly over counting). From TFA: > The tentative deal would raise part-time workers' wages to at least $21 an hour. Their pay was a sticking point during negotiations. Full-time workers will average $49 an hour, and the agreement would end mandatory overtime on drivers' days off, according to a summary posted by the Teamsters Union. So, they're claiming benefits are worth $70K per year per person. I highly doubt that there would have been a strike threat if that were the case.
- IAmGraydon 3y ago
  You’re assuming they work 40 hour weeks. UPS workers average close to 60.
thedrbrian 3y ago
$49 * 37.5 * 52 = $95,550 per year. I've not had a drink but I think I'm missing something. Maybe their company healthcare is valued at 50K per employee per year?
- IAmGraydon 3y ago
  What you’re missing is about 20 hours per week.
- Zircom 3y ago
  So the $49 is immediate, at the end of the 5 years it should rise to $56.50. And I think a fulltime salary is 40hrs/week is it not? 56.505240 = 117,520, plus overtime and healthcare and pension and other benefits being the other ~55,000 I suppose.
spydum 3y ago
Not clear at all? Does this mean 170k in total comp for the 5 years? Or that a full year TC in 5 years will step up to 170k? They also mention FTEs will make 49/hr, which at expected 40hr weeks seems to be roughly 100k a year pay, plus other benefits which may add up to 170k? This was poorly summarized I think..
- DesiLurker 3y ago
  this is highly misleading & rage-baity. In India I have seen jobs mention this kind of thing as CTC (Cost to company) which is what it really is not what get reported to IRS as gross income.
- kevinconroy 3y ago
  CEO is trolling working class. It’s total cost of benefits added to TC. So while from an economist POV this is the total cost of one employee, it’s not the TC (total comp) that Tech often uses, largely because it’s hard to know the added costs that the company pays per person
- jerrygenser 3y ago
  Health insurance, workman's comp, pension liabilities, etc. The "fully loaded" cost of an employee is a _lot_ more than the cash comp they receive
bettercallsalad 3y ago
I find it senseless how bankers get billions of tax payers money and no one raises an eyebrow. But the moment your average worker starts to get a wage increase everyone screams inflation. Fed had flooded the market with money and brought along asset inflation for years but the moment nominal wages started to rise every Economists suddenly started to worry about inflation, as if the time to increase the rates were not 11 years ago in 2012. Here is a Fed governor explaining how she can’t feel inflation anymore. It’s painful to watch the mental gymnastics. [1] [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/feds-mary-daly-says-i-dont-feel-the-pain-of-inflation-anymore-heres-the-full-context-of-her-remarks-11659553509 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/feds-mary-daly-says-i-dont...
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  It’s about class and power. I’m still amazed at how brazen Powell is about it all.
- HL33tibCe7 3y ago
  Because bankers, like it or not, produce that much value. UPS drivers don’t, and are instead holding their company hostage to force them to pay them more, placing unnecessary restrictions on people entering the job market, which ultimately comes at the expense of everybody else in their market.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Produce that much value in what sense? In potential future value for whatever might use credit and other financial services, yes, I agree with you, but that's potential. Value useful right now is being provided by the people doing the work, not the ones playing around with figures to determine where value should be allocated. Without those UPS drivers you don't have deliveries, with no deliveries there's no online sales, there's no movement of goods, this is actual proper value being produced in the real sense, not in an accounting spreadsheet somewhere.
  - ex3xu 3y ago
    UPS drivers, like it or not, produce that much value. Bankers don't, and are instead holding the economy hostage through abuse of insider information [0], regulatory arbitrage [1], and capturing short-term value via liquidity mismanagement [2] or creating long-term systemic risk via post-Glass-Steagall gambling on derivatives that eventually leaves shareholders and taxpayers holding the bag [3], which ultimately comes at the expense of everybody else in the economy. [0] https://www.goldmansachs.com/investor-relations/corporate-governance/corporate-governance-documents/code-of-business-conduct-and-ethics.pdf https://www.goldmansachs.com/investor-relations/corporate-go... [1] https://www.atlantafed.org/-/media/Documents/news/conferences/2015/1119-the-role-of-liquidity-in-the-financial-system/luck-schempp-regulatory-arbitrage.pdf https://www.atlantafed.org/-/media/Documents/news/conference... [2] https://apnews.com/article/silicon-valley-bank-bailout-yellen-deposits-failure-94f2185742981daf337c4691bbb9ec1e https://apnews.com/article/silicon-valley-bank-bailout-yelle... [3] https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/articles/what-is-a-bespoke-tranche-opportunity https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/article...
acatton 3y ago
> UPS’ CEO said drivers will average $170,000 in pay _and benefits such as health care and pensions_ > Full-time workers will average $49 an hour $49/h × 2,000h = $98,000 The title of the article is a little exaggerated. How much of the $170k is "benefits" which should not be benefits but basic employer services.
- mcny 3y ago
  Exactly. At this rate, we should include the cost of all the sexual predator (not sure of the exact technical term) lawsuits faced by ceo as a part of their compensation as well. As well as cost of lawsuits for wrongful deaths when talking about police pay. It is insured so they know the cost upfront…
neom 3y ago
If the comments in here are to believed and it's not just people trolling, it makes me pretty ashamed of our industry: https://www.autoblog.com/2023/08/09/ups-drivers-land-a-170000-a-year-contract-and-tech-workers-are-incredulous/ https://www.autoblog.com/2023/08/09/ups-drivers-land-a-17000... "This is disappointing, how is possible that a driver makes much more than average Engineer in R&D?" a worker at the autonomous trucking company TuSimple wrote on Blind, an anonymous jop-posting site that verifies users' employment using their company email. "To get a base salary of $170k you know you need to work hard as an Engineer, this sucks." USP driving is taxing both mentally and physically. Sweltering heat, freezing cold winters, people screaming at you, manual labour.
- matwood 3y ago
  They also don't understand the difference between total comp and base salary.
- sevenseventen 3y ago
  Total comp as a metric is almost always used to exaggerate the amount of compensation by adding things to salary/rate. - Pension/401k/profit sharing contributions - Employer contribution to health insurance/life insurance - Vacation/sick time compensation These aren't nothing, and you do want to have it available for the basis of total-comp to total-comp across employers, but they're _not_ the same as direct comp. The people quoted in the article are making the category error of comparing salary to total comp. If an engineer is making 170K in direct comp, they're almost certainly making _way more than that_ in total comp. Insurance might be 10K. Profit sharing/401k could be up to another 15%. Other fringe benefits like health club membership could be thousands of dollars. You people who get options -- that counts, too.

26 points by koolba 3y ago

SanderNL 3y ago

170k over.. five years? I’m not getting it.

Zircom 3y ago
Unions will usually negotiate salaries and pay-raises for several years in advance, e.g. $5000 raise every year for 5 years. So by the end of 5 years their average salary+benefits will reach $170,000.
d1sxeyes 3y ago
They are saying that it will take them 5 years to get to the point where this is true. If you read the article, you see that in 5 years' time, they expect the average hourly pay for FTEs to be 49 USD. That works out at around 100K/year, plus whatever benefits and pension contributions are made on the employee's behalf. Details aren't in the article and 70K of benefits and pension contributions seems high, but not completely implausible. What ACTUALLY happens over 5 years is a different question.

hef19898 3y ago

Instead of taking the CEOs (!) word at face value, as a journalist one could also ask for the details of the deal from Teamsters and do the the math yourself. I am allowed to dream, right? Edit: German collectively bargained salary tables are public. As are the contracts behind them.

icegreentea2 3y ago
I believe the tentative master agreements are here: https://teamster.org/ups-ta-2023-2028/ https://teamster.org/ups-ta-2023-2028/

matthewfelgate 3y ago

Isn't this a bit ridiculous pay for a delivery driver?! The average Public School Teacher salary in the United States is $56,937

xenospn 3y ago
Have you tried being a delivery driver?
- IAmGraydon 3y ago
  So tired of hearing this nonsense reply. How physically taxing a job is doesn’t determine its value.
  - jckahn 3y ago
    Have you tried living without delivery drivers?
    - IAmGraydon 3y ago
      Not the point, and you clearly have a loose grip on economics. Have you tried living without water? No? Would you pay $170,000 per year for it?
      - quickthrower2 3y ago
        /remind me 2050
      - danbruc 3y ago
        Value is what people are willing to pay but that is not what should primarily determine prices, they should be primarily determined by the costs of production. That is what competition is for, driving the profits to zero and the prices towards production costs. The value of water is very high, people would pay any price because otherwise they would die of thirst. The price on the other hand is low because the costs of production are low. The explanation why the price reflect the costs and not the value in this case, you can pick on your own, maybe competition, maybe the expectation of people with pitchforks if you try to get rich by selling water for $100 per liter, maybe regulations, ... probably a combination of several things.

wdb 3y ago

Maybe I should switch jobs. Can imagine this is a more relaxing and healthy job

dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
Better that fixing a kubernates yaml configuration for sure.

bsder 3y ago

Average is thrown off by the outliers. What you want is the median. However, they're also counting all benefits (and probably significantly over counting). From TFA: > The tentative deal would raise part-time workers' wages to at least $21 an hour. Their pay was a sticking point during negotiations. Full-time workers will average $49 an hour, and the agreement would end mandatory overtime on drivers' days off, according to a summary posted by the Teamsters Union. So, they're claiming benefits are worth $70K per year per person. I highly doubt that there would have been a strike threat if that were the case.

IAmGraydon 3y ago
You’re assuming they work 40 hour weeks. UPS workers average close to 60.

thedrbrian 3y ago

$49 * 37.5 * 52 = $95,550 per year. I've not had a drink but I think I'm missing something. Maybe their company healthcare is valued at 50K per employee per year?

IAmGraydon 3y ago
What you’re missing is about 20 hours per week.
Zircom 3y ago
So the $49 is immediate, at the end of the 5 years it should rise to $56.50. And I think a fulltime salary is 40hrs/week is it not? 56.505240 = 117,520, plus overtime and healthcare and pension and other benefits being the other ~55,000 I suppose.

spydum 3y ago

Not clear at all? Does this mean 170k in total comp for the 5 years? Or that a full year TC in 5 years will step up to 170k? They also mention FTEs will make 49/hr, which at expected 40hr weeks seems to be roughly 100k a year pay, plus other benefits which may add up to 170k? This was poorly summarized I think..

DesiLurker 3y ago
this is highly misleading & rage-baity. In India I have seen jobs mention this kind of thing as CTC (Cost to company) which is what it really is not what get reported to IRS as gross income.
kevinconroy 3y ago
CEO is trolling working class. It’s total cost of benefits added to TC. So while from an economist POV this is the total cost of one employee, it’s not the TC (total comp) that Tech often uses, largely because it’s hard to know the added costs that the company pays per person
jerrygenser 3y ago
Health insurance, workman's comp, pension liabilities, etc. The "fully loaded" cost of an employee is a _lot_ more than the cash comp they receive

bettercallsalad 3y ago

I find it senseless how bankers get billions of tax payers money and no one raises an eyebrow. But the moment your average worker starts to get a wage increase everyone screams inflation. Fed had flooded the market with money and brought along asset inflation for years but the moment nominal wages started to rise every Economists suddenly started to worry about inflation, as if the time to increase the rates were not 11 years ago in 2012. Here is a Fed governor explaining how she can’t feel inflation anymore. It’s painful to watch the mental gymnastics. [1] [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/feds-mary-daly-says-i-dont-feel-the-pain-of-inflation-anymore-heres-the-full-context-of-her-remarks-11659553509 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/feds-mary-daly-says-i-dont...

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
It’s about class and power. I’m still amazed at how brazen Powell is about it all.
HL33tibCe7 3y ago
Because bankers, like it or not, produce that much value. UPS drivers don’t, and are instead holding their company hostage to force them to pay them more, placing unnecessary restrictions on people entering the job market, which ultimately comes at the expense of everybody else in their market.
- piva00 3y ago
  Produce that much value in what sense? In potential future value for whatever might use credit and other financial services, yes, I agree with you, but that's potential. Value useful right now is being provided by the people doing the work, not the ones playing around with figures to determine where value should be allocated. Without those UPS drivers you don't have deliveries, with no deliveries there's no online sales, there's no movement of goods, this is actual proper value being produced in the real sense, not in an accounting spreadsheet somewhere.
- ex3xu 3y ago
  UPS drivers, like it or not, produce that much value. Bankers don't, and are instead holding the economy hostage through abuse of insider information [0], regulatory arbitrage [1], and capturing short-term value via liquidity mismanagement [2] or creating long-term systemic risk via post-Glass-Steagall gambling on derivatives that eventually leaves shareholders and taxpayers holding the bag [3], which ultimately comes at the expense of everybody else in the economy. [0] https://www.goldmansachs.com/investor-relations/corporate-governance/corporate-governance-documents/code-of-business-conduct-and-ethics.pdf https://www.goldmansachs.com/investor-relations/corporate-go... [1] https://www.atlantafed.org/-/media/Documents/news/conferences/2015/1119-the-role-of-liquidity-in-the-financial-system/luck-schempp-regulatory-arbitrage.pdf https://www.atlantafed.org/-/media/Documents/news/conference... [2] https://apnews.com/article/silicon-valley-bank-bailout-yellen-deposits-failure-94f2185742981daf337c4691bbb9ec1e https://apnews.com/article/silicon-valley-bank-bailout-yelle... [3] https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/articles/what-is-a-bespoke-tranche-opportunity https://money.usnews.com/investing/stock-market-news/article...

acatton 3y ago

> UPS’ CEO said drivers will average $170,000 in pay _and benefits such as health care and pensions_ > Full-time workers will average $49 an hour $49/h × 2,000h = $98,000 The title of the article is a little exaggerated. How much of the $170k is "benefits" which should not be benefits but basic employer services.

mcny 3y ago
Exactly. At this rate, we should include the cost of all the sexual predator (not sure of the exact technical term) lawsuits faced by ceo as a part of their compensation as well. As well as cost of lawsuits for wrongful deaths when talking about police pay. It is insured so they know the cost upfront…

neom 3y ago

If the comments in here are to believed and it's not just people trolling, it makes me pretty ashamed of our industry: https://www.autoblog.com/2023/08/09/ups-drivers-land-a-170000-a-year-contract-and-tech-workers-are-incredulous/ https://www.autoblog.com/2023/08/09/ups-drivers-land-a-17000... "This is disappointing, how is possible that a driver makes much more than average Engineer in R&D?" a worker at the autonomous trucking company TuSimple wrote on Blind, an anonymous jop-posting site that verifies users' employment using their company email. "To get a base salary of $170k you know you need to work hard as an Engineer, this sucks." USP driving is taxing both mentally and physically. Sweltering heat, freezing cold winters, people screaming at you, manual labour.

matwood 3y ago
They also don't understand the difference between total comp and base salary.
sevenseventen 3y ago
Total comp as a metric is almost always used to exaggerate the amount of compensation by adding things to salary/rate. - Pension/401k/profit sharing contributions - Employer contribution to health insurance/life insurance - Vacation/sick time compensation These aren't nothing, and you do want to have it available for the basis of total-comp to total-comp across employers, but they're _not_ the same as direct comp. The people quoted in the article are making the category error of comparing salary to total comp. If an engineer is making 170K in direct comp, they're almost certainly making _way more than that_ in total comp. Insurance might be 10K. Profit sharing/401k could be up to another 15%. Other fringe benefits like health club membership could be thousands of dollars. You people who get options -- that counts, too.