3 ms·

The middle ground is upholding the principle of net neutrality, with the large transit providers maintaining freedom of information exchange rather than doling

by kfnws 3y ago

The middle ground is upholding the principle of net neutrality, with the large transit providers maintaining freedom of information exchange rather than doling out extrajudicial punishments for speech they may deem undesirable.

stephenr 3y ago
Isn't it funny how "net neutrality" used to be about preventing companies prioritising certain traffic based on business deals. As soon as a bunch of losers who stalk people for fun get kicked offline they suddenly want to adopt the phrase "net neutrality" for their cause. People like you are exactly why every rule has exceptions. You're the embodiment of yelling "FIRE! in a crowded theatre".
- dmatech 3y ago
  Net neutrality long assumed that backbones would merely slow down traffic, not block it entirely for opaque reasons. They're only supposed to intervene to prevent technical disruptions. I haven't spent that much time looking at KF, but they do appear to follow US law and will ban people who break it (and cooperate with US law enforcement). The site is a bit of a corner case: legal but extremely reviled. They use incredibly foul language, and they seem quite proud to be on the "wrong side of history". But I still contend that no amount of mere unpopularity should knock a site entirely off the internet.
  - stephenr 3y ago
    I don't think you get to take the "well this is technically legal, let's give them the benefit of the doubt" argument when your members actions have directly caused three people to kill themselves.
    - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - thrwaway1234567 3y ago
        What does this have to do with kiwifarms?
    - IcyClAyMptHe 3y ago
      > directly caused three people to kill themselves this lie gets repeated so often and it's disappointing how willing people are to lap it up without an ounce of critical thought.
      - stephenr 3y ago
        https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known... https://www.insider.com/chris-chan-arrest-what-is-kiwifarms-the-forum-exposed-her-2021-8 https://www.insider.com/chris-chan-arrest-what-is-kiwifarms-...
        IcyClAyMptHe 3y ago
        I am aware of the claims and the "news" sources regurgitating them. The evidence Kiwifarms is responsible for anything is remarkably shaky (lots of use of the term "has been linked to" and no real evidence for anything).
  - thrwaway1234567 3y ago
    Kiwifarms, now banned, official twitter page said their goal was “exploitation of the mentally handicapped for amusement purposes”. ( Source: https://archive.is/jYp5p https://archive.is/jYp5p ). I think Kiwifarms is (borderline) criminal. Null, the admin of the site, outright said he was ok with users posting stolen financial information, such as Social Security Numbers and Credit cards. Source: https://archive.is/0fOcS https://archive.is/0fOcS . There are many examples of private financial information being posted on the site. I would describe them as operating with a paper thin layer of "plausible" deniability. Officially you aren't allowed to harass or interact with the targets. But posting their home address, stolen passwords, phone numbers, and information about relatives is all allowed. But even the rule against interacting with "lolcows" (called "cowtipping") is haphazardly enforced. For example, one user had sex with a "lolcow" and posted photos. The admin explicitly said they would allow the content to remain up: https://archive.is/zYnpK#35% https://archive.is/zYnpK#35% For those who aren't aware, kiwifarms is a website that was ostensibly something like a gossip forum, but in practice basically ended up being used for cyberstalking and harassment. They would frequently harass and doxx people. Their wikipedia page covers parts of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
    - dmatech 3y ago
      It definitely facilitates the commission of crimes, but doing that isn't a crime itself unless there is a clear conspiracy. It's just being irresponsible.
      - thrwaway1234567 3y ago
        Are you sure that the requirement for a clear conspiracy is present in the laws in all 50 states and federally? For instance, 18 U.S. Code § 1028 (a)(2) appears to criminalize transfer of identification documents as long as you know it was stolen or unlawfully obtained. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 The laws on credit card fraud require "unlawful or fraudulent intent" though. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1644 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1644 Even discounting the above, you could imagine why a provider may not want to serve a website that engages in that sort of borderline illegal behavior.
- kfnws 3y ago
  It's about neutrality in general. This isn't anything new, here's an article from the EFF back in 2015 about how free speech is protected and censorship prevented by upholding net neutrality principles: https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-urges-federal-appeals-court-protect-speech-guard-against-censorship-upholding-net https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-urges-federal-appeals... Point is that this should apply to all network traffic, including websites where people are there saying things you disagree with. If whatever they're gossiping about on Kiwi Farms is really that bad, then that's for law enforcement and the courts to sort out, not rogue network engineers with strong opinions.
  - stephenr 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - kfnws 3y ago
      It's a matter of principle, similar to how your water company isn't allowed to cut off service if you say something they disagree with or if you host a bunch of people who say unsavoury things on your property. Also it's conservatives who have been decimating net neutrality in the US in recent years, so I'm not quite sure why you went on that tangent in assuming that my political positions align with theirs. Let's stay on topic please.
      - stephenr 3y ago
        Water is essential for human life. The ability to doxx people, stalk them and trigger them to commit suicide, as it happens, is not considered essential for human life. I mean unless of course you're a kiwifarms loser who considers that "life".
        kfnws 3y ago
        The water company was just one example of a utility that's mandated by law to provide impartial service to its customers. Perhaps a more relevant parallel can be found in telephone companies. Every day, people call each other and have the most unsavoury and obnoxious conversations, at least by other people's standards, and they can't get their service cut off for doing so. Even if others are listening in and happen to be offended.

by kfnws 3y ago

stephenr 3y ago

Isn't it funny how "net neutrality" used to be about preventing companies prioritising certain traffic based on business deals. As soon as a bunch of losers who stalk people for fun get kicked offline they suddenly want to adopt the phrase "net neutrality" for their cause. People like you are exactly why every rule has exceptions. You're the embodiment of yelling "FIRE! in a crowded theatre".

dmatech 3y ago
Net neutrality long assumed that backbones would merely slow down traffic, not block it entirely for opaque reasons. They're only supposed to intervene to prevent technical disruptions. I haven't spent that much time looking at KF, but they do appear to follow US law and will ban people who break it (and cooperate with US law enforcement). The site is a bit of a corner case: legal but extremely reviled. They use incredibly foul language, and they seem quite proud to be on the "wrong side of history". But I still contend that no amount of mere unpopularity should knock a site entirely off the internet.
- stephenr 3y ago
  I don't think you get to take the "well this is technically legal, let's give them the benefit of the doubt" argument when your members actions have directly caused three people to kill themselves.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - thrwaway1234567 3y ago
      What does this have to do with kiwifarms?
  - IcyClAyMptHe 3y ago
    > directly caused three people to kill themselves this lie gets repeated so often and it's disappointing how willing people are to lap it up without an ounce of critical thought.
    - stephenr 3y ago
      https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known... https://www.insider.com/chris-chan-arrest-what-is-kiwifarms-the-forum-exposed-her-2021-8 https://www.insider.com/chris-chan-arrest-what-is-kiwifarms-...
      - IcyClAyMptHe 3y ago
        I am aware of the claims and the "news" sources regurgitating them. The evidence Kiwifarms is responsible for anything is remarkably shaky (lots of use of the term "has been linked to" and no real evidence for anything).
- thrwaway1234567 3y ago
  Kiwifarms, now banned, official twitter page said their goal was “exploitation of the mentally handicapped for amusement purposes”. ( Source: https://archive.is/jYp5p https://archive.is/jYp5p ). I think Kiwifarms is (borderline) criminal. Null, the admin of the site, outright said he was ok with users posting stolen financial information, such as Social Security Numbers and Credit cards. Source: https://archive.is/0fOcS https://archive.is/0fOcS . There are many examples of private financial information being posted on the site. I would describe them as operating with a paper thin layer of "plausible" deniability. Officially you aren't allowed to harass or interact with the targets. But posting their home address, stolen passwords, phone numbers, and information about relatives is all allowed. But even the rule against interacting with "lolcows" (called "cowtipping") is haphazardly enforced. For example, one user had sex with a "lolcow" and posted photos. The admin explicitly said they would allow the content to remain up: https://archive.is/zYnpK#35% https://archive.is/zYnpK#35% For those who aren't aware, kiwifarms is a website that was ostensibly something like a gossip forum, but in practice basically ended up being used for cyberstalking and harassment. They would frequently harass and doxx people. Their wikipedia page covers parts of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
  - dmatech 3y ago
    It definitely facilitates the commission of crimes, but doing that isn't a crime itself unless there is a clear conspiracy. It's just being irresponsible.
    - thrwaway1234567 3y ago
      Are you sure that the requirement for a clear conspiracy is present in the laws in all 50 states and federally? For instance, 18 U.S. Code § 1028 (a)(2) appears to criminalize transfer of identification documents as long as you know it was stolen or unlawfully obtained. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028 The laws on credit card fraud require "unlawful or fraudulent intent" though. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1644 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1644 Even discounting the above, you could imagine why a provider may not want to serve a website that engages in that sort of borderline illegal behavior.
kfnws 3y ago
It's about neutrality in general. This isn't anything new, here's an article from the EFF back in 2015 about how free speech is protected and censorship prevented by upholding net neutrality principles: https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-urges-federal-appeals-court-protect-speech-guard-against-censorship-upholding-net https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-urges-federal-appeals... Point is that this should apply to all network traffic, including websites where people are there saying things you disagree with. If whatever they're gossiping about on Kiwi Farms is really that bad, then that's for law enforcement and the courts to sort out, not rogue network engineers with strong opinions.
- stephenr 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - kfnws 3y ago
    It's a matter of principle, similar to how your water company isn't allowed to cut off service if you say something they disagree with or if you host a bunch of people who say unsavoury things on your property. Also it's conservatives who have been decimating net neutrality in the US in recent years, so I'm not quite sure why you went on that tangent in assuming that my political positions align with theirs. Let's stay on topic please.
    - stephenr 3y ago
      Water is essential for human life. The ability to doxx people, stalk them and trigger them to commit suicide, as it happens, is not considered essential for human life. I mean unless of course you're a kiwifarms loser who considers that "life".
      - kfnws 3y ago
        The water company was just one example of a utility that's mandated by law to provide impartial service to its customers. Perhaps a more relevant parallel can be found in telephone companies. Every day, people call each other and have the most unsavoury and obnoxious conversations, at least by other people's standards, and they can't get their service cut off for doing so. Even if others are listening in and happen to be offended.