14 ms·

Developers are building communities that act as their own miniature power grids

187 points by mhb 3y ago

haspoken 3y ago
https://archive.is/jrCMZ https://archive.is/jrCMZ
andreamaxwell 3y ago
Fascinating read! Microgrids and solar energy hold immense potential for a sustainable future. Exciting to witness these advancements shaping our energy landscape.
electrondood 3y ago
Tesla's Powerwall + Virtual Power Plant software allow individuals to profit from arbitraging electricity prices while doubling as a distributed energy grid. Combine that with Megapacks (buffer battery arrays for municipalities) and you've got a distributed energy grid that absorbs load effectively, and makes money for its participants..
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  My friend lives in a small neighborhood north of SF in Marin County, but down a small road that frequently washes out. They were constantly losing power and would be down for days if not longer during big storms that drop a lot of limbs and wash the road out. Rather than deal with the urgency of restoring power to them and all that entailed, PG&E just installed a Powerwall in every house. Many of the houses already had solar so now when the main power line is cut, they can go for days/weeks and live relatively normally. Batteries are going to make a lot of things much easier.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    And in a sane world, few would have a physical internet connection unless you’re really pushing serious data (which probably doesn’t need to be from home anyway). I’ve toyed with shutting my router and modem at night on a timer because it’s a waste of 15-20w of electricity for nothing.
    - gruez 3y ago
      Your cellphone's 4G connection might be fast enough to handle a 4K stream, but there isn't enough RF spectrum to handle 500 devices in the same block trying to stream 4K. That's why you still need physical internet connections.
      - themitigating 3y ago
        There could become a point where technology has advanced so far that cell tech is all there is. Imagine everything was just wireless and the internet penertrated everywhere
        Johnythree 3y ago
        Wireless is a seriously limited resource. There will never be sufficient spectrum available to support all the fixed services that are needed. And the heavier the loading, the slower the network runs. On the other hand, whenever you run a length of fiber, you create a whole new spectrum which is available 24 hrs a day.
      - jjoonathan 3y ago
        With enough beamforming there's spectrum. If I option-click the wifi icon on my laptop, it says "NSS 2" -- that is, the Number of Spatial Streams is 2. My laptop and router have identified two different spatial paths between them and are using their multiple antennae to send different data down the different paths.. NSS=2 is the limit for my router because it only has 2 antenna, but those routers with a ring of antennae that look like they were designed by the Dark Lord Sauron to top a tower in Mordor can fire correspondingly more simultaneous spatial streams. Cell towers with antenna arrays can do even better. There is plenty of spectrum, just not for old single-antenna tech.
        gruez 3y ago
        >If I option-click the wifi icon on my laptop, it says "NSS 2" -- that is, the Number of Spatial Streams is 2. My laptop and router have identified two different spatial paths between them and are using their multiple antennae to send different data down the different paths.. Doesn't that use 2x the spectrum? If so that doesn't really solve the problem. Sure, you're getting 2x the speeds, but also using the 2x the spectrum which is still a shared resource.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    Did PGE pay for powerwall and installation?
    - mikeyouse 3y ago
      Yep, as far as I know they did. I think technically PGE still "owns" them, but that doesn't mean much. PGE has some sort of SLA requirement that they were trying to reach but it was taking dozens of hours of their teams' time to restore power to their little neighborhood when much bigger / more important areas were also waiting on restoration so apparently this was the workaround.
      - YeBanKo 3y ago
        Do you know if they pay the same rate to PGE when they use power from the batteries that would have paid if they bought from the grid?
        r00fus 3y ago
        Wouldn’t that be double dipping from the power company? The homes with powerwall pay for the electricity to load the powerwall days before they are forced to use it as backup when PGE can’t fix the lines fast enough.
        YeBanKo 3y ago
        It depends on terms. That’s why I think the rate maybe reduces. It would be also strange if powerwalls with installation were just gifted to them.
- usefulcat 3y ago
  To give some idea of the arbitrage potential, in Texas right now the price is usually $20-$30 / MWh for much of each day, but rises into the hundreds or even low thousands during times of peak demand, usually for 4-6 hours each day. This pattern is very common during the hottest ~4 months of the year. https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprices https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprice...
jwr 3y ago
This content is not on the internet. Can I also submit links to any local site that requires a subscription in order to view the article? Or does this specific site get an exception?
- krastanov 3y ago
  Yes, you can submit any local site with a paywall. For what is worth, it is part of the "community guidelines" for HN to not complain about paywalls (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ). Someone will probably post a pirated archive link shortly (edit: they already have).
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Part of the community guidelines that we aren’t allowed to discuss is censorship. I get that we don’t want to spiral on discussing things, but can’t discuss them at all is draconian.
    - basch 3y ago
      Does your local library provide access to the new york times? I'm not sure a private company paying money to produce a story for paying customers quite qualifies as "censorship."
    - striking 3y ago
      The mod team have made themselves clear.[1][2] I'm not sure what more there is to say, you're not going to "discuss" 'dang into submission. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 2: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=paywalls%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=paywalls%20by:dang&dateRange=a...
      - hinkley 3y ago
        [1] was eight years ago. I’m not sure that’s how decisions work. But if anything more stuff is paywalled now I suspect I know how that would go.
louwrentius 3y ago
Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People
- franl 3y ago
  Rich is obviously very relative, but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price (the price cited in the article). And the couple in the article paid even less. “The couple, who paid in the low $200,000s for their 1,350-square-foot, three-bedroom home, moved into the community last July.”
  - comrh 3y ago
    North Carolina in case anyone else is curious
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    >> Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People > but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price You're restating "rich people" as "Many reading on this site". Why not just say rich people?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
It's mildly ironic that one of the drivers of solar, battery and EV uptake in the US is private individuals responding to the fallability of the grid and planning for when their connection fails.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Grid fragility leads to distributed resilience while driving down the cost of the tech you mentioned as volume ramps. Innovation cannibalism. Systems working as intended.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Reduced load is reduced funding which leads to poor people dying in heat wave.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Funding goes to shareholders, not infrastructure, which is neglected to juice profits. Micro grids ensures funds stay local, and are governed by the users. What would have become profits is now infrastructure and user savings. Edit: Poor people already die because they can’t afford their utility bills. Micro grids will help more than convincing utilities to be benevolent and reduce utility bills. (Have advocated for low income solar and installed more than one rooftop solar system on the roof of those not of means; their electric rates are locked in for decades, as the systems have a 25 year warranty and will continue to produce after that, while utility fuel prices will continue to rise as will their demand to see a return on equity; AMA)
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Most electric utilities have programs designed to reduce load because they don't want to expand capacity. Programs like replacing your inefficient old fridge, or incandescent to LED bulbs and such. This is going to be especially true as EV adoption takes off. It could be hard to keep up with increases in demand.
fabiofzero 3y ago
Power companies should be the ones proposing, subsidising and installing these to replace traditional power grids. Of course it will never happen because "iT hURtS tHe boTToM lInE" and "fIDuCiaRy oBlIGatION" but this is the way.
- Johnythree 3y ago
  In Australia the people once owned their own power grid. But then successive governments bought into the Neo-Liberal scam and sold it to their mates. And (of course) any investment in new technology promptly stopped, and prices have (of course) risen dramatically. If we had maintained community ownership of our power generation, the old style Coal powered generators would have gradually given way to Solar and Wind power, as the technology increasingly became more efficient and affordable. It would have been so painless and progressive that we would have barely noticed it.
nathancahill 3y ago
Highly recommend reading "The Grid: The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future" if this is your cup of tea.
reacharavindh 3y ago
Haven’t read the article because it is behind a paywall. Based on the title, I have a comment. I hope the battery tech catches up fast that we can have safe (one that is not vulnerable to runaway fire even at as low probability as LFP batteries of today are), and also hold about 50KwH of energy so as to serve as an effective buffer for most households.
hinkley 3y ago
This story of decentralization has played out before. The hazard is that private grid infrastructure becomes affordable by the upper class, they stop soliciting politicians to maintain infrastructure. Once the middle class can afford it, then the votes evaporate, and the lower class is absolutely fucked. A half rotten water supply or electric grid becomes fully rotten every time there’s stress on the system. Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew.
- franl 3y ago
  What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before? What you’re saying makes sense to me, but my hope would be that the decentralization would serve more as a supplement than a replacement - therefore still requiring ongoing maintenance and investment to main infra. The alternative without these microgrids and other microinfra is almost guaranteed to result in the half or fully rotten systems you predict as the prevailing recent political climate doesn’t give much confidence in terms of getting such massive projects planned and completed successfully (US-centric response).
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    > What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before? I am not very knowledgeable about this, but the public/private school debate seems to be one possibility.
- burkaman 3y ago
  > Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew. More than two thirds of US households already have electric stoves, and normal non-induction electric stoves are about the same price as gas ones. A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the most part.
  - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
K0balt 3y ago
My off grid community runs a micro grid for the residents and projects here. Our all solar micro grid runs a coffee plantation, 7 cabins, 5 houses, a gym, a dojo, a lounge/kitchen/dining hall, water production, purification, and distribution, a small school, and several apartments and workshops. It’s totally feasible for many areas and power is comparably priced or cheaper than the local utility while being much more reliable.
rndmize 3y ago
This is something I've been curious/interested in for a long time, so its good to see that somewhere out there (random Pacific islands aside), there's communities making it work. Some rough numbers I did a month or two ago - Tesla offers a megapack that has 3.9 MWh at a cost of $2.4m. "In 2021, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. home was 10,632 kilowatt-hours (kWh). Or about 886 kWh per month." That's about 30 kWh per day; my community has 45 houses, so use of 1.35 MWh in total, so a megapack will provide power for 3 days for the community at a cost of ~50k per house. Probably not worth it and I'd expect 3 days to be overkill. But a community that was double our size will have a cost of about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of power - which doesn't sound too bad to me. Another thing I've found interesting is Anker seems to be getting into the home power business - https://www.anker.com/anker-solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=anker-solix-brand https://www.anker.com/anker-solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=... - which I'm hopeful about, since it doesn't seem like anyone except Tesla has been able to make something that feels simple/easy/attractive. Every time I've look at Powerwall alternatives I'm been unimpressed by the offerings; maybe Anker can deliver.
- hkt 3y ago
  It'd become much more sustainable to do what you're talking about if it was accompanied by energy saving measures. Do it well and you could easily aim for 5kWh per day per house by minimising heating and cooling choices.
- momirlan 3y ago
  anker, being a Chinese manufacturer, doesn't have much chance to penetrate the western markets. even assuming they can develop a dependable product. but I wouldn't trust more than a headphone, or a wall charger from them.
  - vorpalhex 3y ago
    Anker knows batteries and their LiFePO4 batteries are solid stuff (as are their traditional lithium cells). Even if you prefer a US maker, competition will help lower prices.
  - 3y ago
NelsonMinar 3y ago
Is there a good technical analysis on whether microgrids are helpful in the context of a first world country with a reliable, well-run large electricity grid? On the face of it, larger grids seem better. I simply don't believe this claim in the NYT article: "microgrid also eases the burden on the local utility, because it can disconnect from the larger grid during a period of overload". (Either the microgrid doesn't have enough power or has too much; either way it'd be better to share its resources, no?) As a PG&E customer I'm stretching a lot to assume "a reliable, well-run grid". I've got my own picogrid here with solar and a generator because our grid is so badly run. But I'm still a technocrat optimist and think most grids can be run at very large scale well. Am I wrong?
- kccqzy 3y ago
  During a period of overload, which I interpret to mean the demand exceeding both traditional supply and micro grid supply, there has to be some kind of disconnection to protect the grid. When that disconnection happens, micro grids can at least still power limited number of appliances. Making the grid larger and more extensively shared power decreases the probability of overload but increases the inconvenience when such overload does happen.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Microgrids aren’t exactly new; essential campus type facilities (hospitals, universities, emergency services, military facilities, etc.) have often run their own grids. The major difference is that it is now starting to get affordable for residential. The particular problem it solves is mostly the cascade. You can disconnect to insulate from cascading failure, you can probably restart a microgrid easier since it’s less things to sync, etc. And a cascade can happen for all sorts of reasons, whether that be operator error (2003 Northeast blackout), a natural disaster that hits the wrong way (hurricane/tornado/earthquake/tsunami) or intentional human disaster (Ukraine)
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    Here is a nice link to a university microgrid explanation [0]. They claim that it allows them to isolate the failure (external or internal) and continue to provide power to the rest of the campus in 1/10 of a second: > Prior to the installation of the microgrid, Illinois Tech experienced three or more power outages each year, at a cost of up to $500,000 annually in restoration expenses, lost productivity, and ruined experiments that often cannot be recovered. [0] https://www.iit.edu/microgrid https://www.iit.edu/microgrid
elicash 3y ago
There is also networked geothermal https://heet.org/geo/ https://heet.org/geo/
samtho 3y ago
As the cost of this equipment goes down, this can totally become commonplace, what I fear is the HOA being the monopoly energy, telco, water, and sewage provider that can then charge ridiculous rates because it simply resell from the upstream provider. They can also make the rules on what, if any, value a homeowner can derive from solar panels on their roof, perhaps even going so far as to say that they belong to the HOA and are required to have them on their roof.
- tracerbulletx 3y ago
  If you don't think the HOA is acting in your benefit do you not feel you can affect change by going to the meetings and building a coalition of your neighbors to take control?
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    You generally don't stand a chance in a HOA if you're not a pensioner who has the time to actually go to meetings and wad through paperwork.
    - chrisbolt 3y ago
      Even so, who in the HOA wants higher prices?
      - lbotos 3y ago
        I suspect the fear is "HOA wants a new million dollar pool" and wants to pay for it with "profits" from the energy costs.
        ultrarunner 3y ago
        I wonder how a fee charged to be on the board of an HOA would change this sort of behavior. I wonder how increasing it would change the nature of of decision making.
      - 3y ago
jksmith 3y ago
I pitched an energy arbitrage system back in 2005, but it was just too far in front of the available technology. The idea was to build small grid co-ops, where endpoints could buy/sell computing power, even just electricity based on demand. Batteries, even idle smart-washing machines and IOT stuff endpoints could provide energy and cycles for whatever. The tech is becoming possible now, but expect utility companies to launch a threatening offensive against people to stop the de-centralization movement from happening. Nicholas Carr's "The Big Switch" in reverse.
- 93po 3y ago
  There are at least a couple companies doing something similar to this right now
  - whelchel 3y ago
    If you know, can you share names/links? Thanks!
    - jksmith 3y ago
      Yeah I'd like to know that myself. Would still like to contribute to that business model.
maliker 3y ago
The first microgrid they discuss was built by a local not-for-profit electric cooperative. It's a nice example of how there can be benefits to the grid as well as the consumers served by the microgrid. There are not a lot of details out there on the grid benefits, but I suspect a decent one would be moving load off of peak demand times.
hpb42 3y ago
I always wondered if flywheels[0] would be a good alternative to batteries to store energy. Flywheels can absorb peak current, help stabilize grid frequency[1] and can have high efficiency. But I haven't seen much on the topic, and a lot in chemical batteries. What are the prices and downsides of flywheels? Does anyone have an up date comparison of commercial solutions with TeslaWall and similar? - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage - [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#Power_grid_frequency_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...
- herlitzj 3y ago
  https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel
  - ketzo 3y ago
    well, if nothing else, that thing looks futuristic as hell would love to point out in my yard and say "oh, that? that's our mechanical energy storage device"
  - reacharavindh 3y ago
    That looks very cool. Mechanical energy storage. Any idea what the return efficiency of such a device is? And guesses about its cost?
    - herlitzj 3y ago
      No idea. But interestingly enough, it looks like someone built a grid scale version in PA with funds from the 2008 Recovery Act. There's a final tech report here https://www.smartgrid.gov/project/hazle_spindle_20mws_flywheel_frequency_regulation_plant https://www.smartgrid.gov/project/hazle_spindle_20mws_flywhe... in the Related Docs
  - hpb42 3y ago
    Cool! Thanks for the link. A 10 kWh flywheel that can charge/discharge at 20 kW (lasts for 20~30 min at this power) costs ~11500 USD + installation and control system. A Tesla Powerwall has 13.5 kWh capacity, delivers power at ~6 kW and costs ~11500 USD. That doesn't seem a large difference to me.
exabrial 3y ago
That is a _lot_ of acreage for solar. What I’m curious about though is what do we do when the solar panels degrade? We haven’t solved that problem yet as far as I know; we’re looking at up to 1/4 less energy output in 25 years (give or take, results may very, blah blah pedantic the usual fine print here)
- Johnythree 3y ago
  They can be easily recycled, but the key is that a small decline in efficiency is largely irrelevant if the energy is free in the first place.
Jedd 3y ago
TFA, and other articles I can find about Heron's Nest install, just refer to a 'battery' (255kWh) but don't mention type. So I'm assuming it's a Li-ion variant. But with several dozen home's worth, it feels like it'd be close to where the cost / scaling of a flow storage system would be much more compelling over a conventional Lithium system. (I'm grid-connected, with solar, eyeing off storage systems, but here in AU our prices are high and our options are small. Flow storage looks to be an objectively superior design, but at single-dwelling scale the pricing is just not competitive, at least not yet, and not here.)

187 points by mhb 3y ago

https://archive.is/jrCMZ https://archive.is/jrCMZ

Fascinating read! Microgrids and solar energy hold immense potential for a sustainable future. Exciting to witness these advancements shaping our energy landscape.

electrondood 3y ago

Tesla's Powerwall + Virtual Power Plant software allow individuals to profit from arbitraging electricity prices while doubling as a distributed energy grid. Combine that with Megapacks (buffer battery arrays for municipalities) and you've got a distributed energy grid that absorbs load effectively, and makes money for its participants..

mikeyouse 3y ago
My friend lives in a small neighborhood north of SF in Marin County, but down a small road that frequently washes out. They were constantly losing power and would be down for days if not longer during big storms that drop a lot of limbs and wash the road out. Rather than deal with the urgency of restoring power to them and all that entailed, PG&E just installed a Powerwall in every house. Many of the houses already had solar so now when the main power line is cut, they can go for days/weeks and live relatively normally. Batteries are going to make a lot of things much easier.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  And in a sane world, few would have a physical internet connection unless you’re really pushing serious data (which probably doesn’t need to be from home anyway). I’ve toyed with shutting my router and modem at night on a timer because it’s a waste of 15-20w of electricity for nothing.
  - gruez 3y ago
    Your cellphone's 4G connection might be fast enough to handle a 4K stream, but there isn't enough RF spectrum to handle 500 devices in the same block trying to stream 4K. That's why you still need physical internet connections.
    - themitigating 3y ago
      There could become a point where technology has advanced so far that cell tech is all there is. Imagine everything was just wireless and the internet penertrated everywhere
      - Johnythree 3y ago
        Wireless is a seriously limited resource. There will never be sufficient spectrum available to support all the fixed services that are needed. And the heavier the loading, the slower the network runs. On the other hand, whenever you run a length of fiber, you create a whole new spectrum which is available 24 hrs a day.
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      With enough beamforming there's spectrum. If I option-click the wifi icon on my laptop, it says "NSS 2" -- that is, the Number of Spatial Streams is 2. My laptop and router have identified two different spatial paths between them and are using their multiple antennae to send different data down the different paths.. NSS=2 is the limit for my router because it only has 2 antenna, but those routers with a ring of antennae that look like they were designed by the Dark Lord Sauron to top a tower in Mordor can fire correspondingly more simultaneous spatial streams. Cell towers with antenna arrays can do even better. There is plenty of spectrum, just not for old single-antenna tech.
      - gruez 3y ago
        >If I option-click the wifi icon on my laptop, it says "NSS 2" -- that is, the Number of Spatial Streams is 2. My laptop and router have identified two different spatial paths between them and are using their multiple antennae to send different data down the different paths.. Doesn't that use 2x the spectrum? If so that doesn't really solve the problem. Sure, you're getting 2x the speeds, but also using the 2x the spectrum which is still a shared resource.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  Did PGE pay for powerwall and installation?
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    Yep, as far as I know they did. I think technically PGE still "owns" them, but that doesn't mean much. PGE has some sort of SLA requirement that they were trying to reach but it was taking dozens of hours of their teams' time to restore power to their little neighborhood when much bigger / more important areas were also waiting on restoration so apparently this was the workaround.
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      Do you know if they pay the same rate to PGE when they use power from the batteries that would have paid if they bought from the grid?
      - r00fus 3y ago
        Wouldn’t that be double dipping from the power company? The homes with powerwall pay for the electricity to load the powerwall days before they are forced to use it as backup when PGE can’t fix the lines fast enough.
        YeBanKo 3y ago
        It depends on terms. That’s why I think the rate maybe reduces. It would be also strange if powerwalls with installation were just gifted to them.
usefulcat 3y ago
To give some idea of the arbitrage potential, in Texas right now the price is usually $20-$30 / MWh for much of each day, but rises into the hundreds or even low thousands during times of peak demand, usually for 4-6 hours each day. This pattern is very common during the hottest ~4 months of the year. https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprices https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprice...

jwr 3y ago

This content is not on the internet. Can I also submit links to any local site that requires a subscription in order to view the article? Or does this specific site get an exception?

krastanov 3y ago
Yes, you can submit any local site with a paywall. For what is worth, it is part of the "community guidelines" for HN to not complain about paywalls (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ). Someone will probably post a pirated archive link shortly (edit: they already have).
- hinkley 3y ago
  Part of the community guidelines that we aren’t allowed to discuss is censorship. I get that we don’t want to spiral on discussing things, but can’t discuss them at all is draconian.
  - basch 3y ago
    Does your local library provide access to the new york times? I'm not sure a private company paying money to produce a story for paying customers quite qualifies as "censorship."
  - striking 3y ago
    The mod team have made themselves clear.[1][2] I'm not sure what more there is to say, you're not going to "discuss" 'dang into submission. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 2: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=paywalls%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=paywalls%20by:dang&dateRange=a...
    - hinkley 3y ago
      [1] was eight years ago. I’m not sure that’s how decisions work. But if anything more stuff is paywalled now I suspect I know how that would go.

louwrentius 3y ago

Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People

franl 3y ago
Rich is obviously very relative, but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price (the price cited in the article). And the couple in the article paid even less. “The couple, who paid in the low $200,000s for their 1,350-square-foot, three-bedroom home, moved into the community last July.”
- comrh 3y ago
  North Carolina in case anyone else is curious
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  >> Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People > but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price You're restating "rich people" as "Many reading on this site". Why not just say rich people?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

It's mildly ironic that one of the drivers of solar, battery and EV uptake in the US is private individuals responding to the fallability of the grid and planning for when their connection fails.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Grid fragility leads to distributed resilience while driving down the cost of the tech you mentioned as volume ramps. Innovation cannibalism. Systems working as intended.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Reduced load is reduced funding which leads to poor people dying in heat wave.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Funding goes to shareholders, not infrastructure, which is neglected to juice profits. Micro grids ensures funds stay local, and are governed by the users. What would have become profits is now infrastructure and user savings. Edit: Poor people already die because they can’t afford their utility bills. Micro grids will help more than convincing utilities to be benevolent and reduce utility bills. (Have advocated for low income solar and installed more than one rooftop solar system on the roof of those not of means; their electric rates are locked in for decades, as the systems have a 25 year warranty and will continue to produce after that, while utility fuel prices will continue to rise as will their demand to see a return on equity; AMA)
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Most electric utilities have programs designed to reduce load because they don't want to expand capacity. Programs like replacing your inefficient old fridge, or incandescent to LED bulbs and such. This is going to be especially true as EV adoption takes off. It could be hard to keep up with increases in demand.

fabiofzero 3y ago

Power companies should be the ones proposing, subsidising and installing these to replace traditional power grids. Of course it will never happen because "iT hURtS tHe boTToM lInE" and "fIDuCiaRy oBlIGatION" but this is the way.

Johnythree 3y ago
In Australia the people once owned their own power grid. But then successive governments bought into the Neo-Liberal scam and sold it to their mates. And (of course) any investment in new technology promptly stopped, and prices have (of course) risen dramatically. If we had maintained community ownership of our power generation, the old style Coal powered generators would have gradually given way to Solar and Wind power, as the technology increasingly became more efficient and affordable. It would have been so painless and progressive that we would have barely noticed it.

nathancahill 3y ago

Highly recommend reading "The Grid: The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future" if this is your cup of tea.

reacharavindh 3y ago

Haven’t read the article because it is behind a paywall. Based on the title, I have a comment. I hope the battery tech catches up fast that we can have safe (one that is not vulnerable to runaway fire even at as low probability as LFP batteries of today are), and also hold about 50KwH of energy so as to serve as an effective buffer for most households.

hinkley 3y ago

This story of decentralization has played out before. The hazard is that private grid infrastructure becomes affordable by the upper class, they stop soliciting politicians to maintain infrastructure. Once the middle class can afford it, then the votes evaporate, and the lower class is absolutely fucked. A half rotten water supply or electric grid becomes fully rotten every time there’s stress on the system. Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew.

franl 3y ago
What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before? What you’re saying makes sense to me, but my hope would be that the decentralization would serve more as a supplement than a replacement - therefore still requiring ongoing maintenance and investment to main infra. The alternative without these microgrids and other microinfra is almost guaranteed to result in the half or fully rotten systems you predict as the prevailing recent political climate doesn’t give much confidence in terms of getting such massive projects planned and completed successfully (US-centric response).
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  > What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before? I am not very knowledgeable about this, but the public/private school debate seems to be one possibility.
burkaman 3y ago
> Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew. More than two thirds of US households already have electric stoves, and normal non-induction electric stoves are about the same price as gas ones. A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the most part.
- DoingIsLearning 3y ago

K0balt 3y ago

My off grid community runs a micro grid for the residents and projects here. Our all solar micro grid runs a coffee plantation, 7 cabins, 5 houses, a gym, a dojo, a lounge/kitchen/dining hall, water production, purification, and distribution, a small school, and several apartments and workshops. It’s totally feasible for many areas and power is comparably priced or cheaper than the local utility while being much more reliable.

rndmize 3y ago

This is something I've been curious/interested in for a long time, so its good to see that somewhere out there (random Pacific islands aside), there's communities making it work. Some rough numbers I did a month or two ago - Tesla offers a megapack that has 3.9 MWh at a cost of $2.4m. "In 2021, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. home was 10,632 kilowatt-hours (kWh). Or about 886 kWh per month." That's about 30 kWh per day; my community has 45 houses, so use of 1.35 MWh in total, so a megapack will provide power for 3 days for the community at a cost of ~50k per house. Probably not worth it and I'd expect 3 days to be overkill. But a community that was double our size will have a cost of about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of power - which doesn't sound too bad to me. Another thing I've found interesting is Anker seems to be getting into the home power business - https://www.anker.com/anker-solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=anker-solix-brand https://www.anker.com/anker-solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=... - which I'm hopeful about, since it doesn't seem like anyone except Tesla has been able to make something that feels simple/easy/attractive. Every time I've look at Powerwall alternatives I'm been unimpressed by the offerings; maybe Anker can deliver.

hkt 3y ago
It'd become much more sustainable to do what you're talking about if it was accompanied by energy saving measures. Do it well and you could easily aim for 5kWh per day per house by minimising heating and cooling choices.
momirlan 3y ago
anker, being a Chinese manufacturer, doesn't have much chance to penetrate the western markets. even assuming they can develop a dependable product. but I wouldn't trust more than a headphone, or a wall charger from them.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Anker knows batteries and their LiFePO4 batteries are solid stuff (as are their traditional lithium cells). Even if you prefer a US maker, competition will help lower prices.
- 3y ago

NelsonMinar 3y ago

Is there a good technical analysis on whether microgrids are helpful in the context of a first world country with a reliable, well-run large electricity grid? On the face of it, larger grids seem better. I simply don't believe this claim in the NYT article: "microgrid also eases the burden on the local utility, because it can disconnect from the larger grid during a period of overload". (Either the microgrid doesn't have enough power or has too much; either way it'd be better to share its resources, no?) As a PG&E customer I'm stretching a lot to assume "a reliable, well-run grid". I've got my own picogrid here with solar and a generator because our grid is so badly run. But I'm still a technocrat optimist and think most grids can be run at very large scale well. Am I wrong?

kccqzy 3y ago
During a period of overload, which I interpret to mean the demand exceeding both traditional supply and micro grid supply, there has to be some kind of disconnection to protect the grid. When that disconnection happens, micro grids can at least still power limited number of appliances. Making the grid larger and more extensively shared power decreases the probability of overload but increases the inconvenience when such overload does happen.
bobthepanda 3y ago
Microgrids aren’t exactly new; essential campus type facilities (hospitals, universities, emergency services, military facilities, etc.) have often run their own grids. The major difference is that it is now starting to get affordable for residential. The particular problem it solves is mostly the cascade. You can disconnect to insulate from cascading failure, you can probably restart a microgrid easier since it’s less things to sync, etc. And a cascade can happen for all sorts of reasons, whether that be operator error (2003 Northeast blackout), a natural disaster that hits the wrong way (hurricane/tornado/earthquake/tsunami) or intentional human disaster (Ukraine)
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  Here is a nice link to a university microgrid explanation [0]. They claim that it allows them to isolate the failure (external or internal) and continue to provide power to the rest of the campus in 1/10 of a second: > Prior to the installation of the microgrid, Illinois Tech experienced three or more power outages each year, at a cost of up to $500,000 annually in restoration expenses, lost productivity, and ruined experiments that often cannot be recovered. [0] https://www.iit.edu/microgrid https://www.iit.edu/microgrid

elicash 3y ago

There is also networked geothermal https://heet.org/geo/ https://heet.org/geo/

samtho 3y ago

As the cost of this equipment goes down, this can totally become commonplace, what I fear is the HOA being the monopoly energy, telco, water, and sewage provider that can then charge ridiculous rates because it simply resell from the upstream provider. They can also make the rules on what, if any, value a homeowner can derive from solar panels on their roof, perhaps even going so far as to say that they belong to the HOA and are required to have them on their roof.

tracerbulletx 3y ago
If you don't think the HOA is acting in your benefit do you not feel you can affect change by going to the meetings and building a coalition of your neighbors to take control?
- mschuster91 3y ago
  You generally don't stand a chance in a HOA if you're not a pensioner who has the time to actually go to meetings and wad through paperwork.
  - chrisbolt 3y ago
    Even so, who in the HOA wants higher prices?
    - lbotos 3y ago
      I suspect the fear is "HOA wants a new million dollar pool" and wants to pay for it with "profits" from the energy costs.
      - ultrarunner 3y ago
        I wonder how a fee charged to be on the board of an HOA would change this sort of behavior. I wonder how increasing it would change the nature of of decision making.
    - 3y ago

jksmith 3y ago

I pitched an energy arbitrage system back in 2005, but it was just too far in front of the available technology. The idea was to build small grid co-ops, where endpoints could buy/sell computing power, even just electricity based on demand. Batteries, even idle smart-washing machines and IOT stuff endpoints could provide energy and cycles for whatever. The tech is becoming possible now, but expect utility companies to launch a threatening offensive against people to stop the de-centralization movement from happening. Nicholas Carr's "The Big Switch" in reverse.

93po 3y ago
There are at least a couple companies doing something similar to this right now
- whelchel 3y ago
  If you know, can you share names/links? Thanks!
  - jksmith 3y ago
    Yeah I'd like to know that myself. Would still like to contribute to that business model.

maliker 3y ago

The first microgrid they discuss was built by a local not-for-profit electric cooperative. It's a nice example of how there can be benefits to the grid as well as the consumers served by the microgrid. There are not a lot of details out there on the grid benefits, but I suspect a decent one would be moving load off of peak demand times.

hpb42 3y ago

I always wondered if flywheels[0] would be a good alternative to batteries to store energy. Flywheels can absorb peak current, help stabilize grid frequency[1] and can have high efficiency. But I haven't seen much on the topic, and a lot in chemical batteries. What are the prices and downsides of flywheels? Does anyone have an up date comparison of commercial solutions with TeslaWall and similar? - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage - [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#Power_grid_frequency_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...

herlitzj 3y ago
https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel
- ketzo 3y ago
  well, if nothing else, that thing looks futuristic as hell would love to point out in my yard and say "oh, that? that's our mechanical energy storage device"
- reacharavindh 3y ago
  That looks very cool. Mechanical energy storage. Any idea what the return efficiency of such a device is? And guesses about its cost?
  - herlitzj 3y ago
    No idea. But interestingly enough, it looks like someone built a grid scale version in PA with funds from the 2008 Recovery Act. There's a final tech report here https://www.smartgrid.gov/project/hazle_spindle_20mws_flywheel_frequency_regulation_plant https://www.smartgrid.gov/project/hazle_spindle_20mws_flywhe... in the Related Docs
- hpb42 3y ago
  Cool! Thanks for the link. A 10 kWh flywheel that can charge/discharge at 20 kW (lasts for 20~30 min at this power) costs ~11500 USD + installation and control system. A Tesla Powerwall has 13.5 kWh capacity, delivers power at ~6 kW and costs ~11500 USD. That doesn't seem a large difference to me.

exabrial 3y ago

That is a _lot_ of acreage for solar. What I’m curious about though is what do we do when the solar panels degrade? We haven’t solved that problem yet as far as I know; we’re looking at up to 1/4 less energy output in 25 years (give or take, results may very, blah blah pedantic the usual fine print here)

Johnythree 3y ago
They can be easily recycled, but the key is that a small decline in efficiency is largely irrelevant if the energy is free in the first place.

Jedd 3y ago

TFA, and other articles I can find about Heron's Nest install, just refer to a 'battery' (255kWh) but don't mention type. So I'm assuming it's a Li-ion variant. But with several dozen home's worth, it feels like it'd be close to where the cost / scaling of a flow storage system would be much more compelling over a conventional Lithium system. (I'm grid-connected, with solar, eyeing off storage systems, but here in AU our prices are high and our options are small. Flow storage looks to be an objectively superior design, but at single-dwelling scale the pricing is just not competitive, at least not yet, and not here.)