105 ms·

Zoom's TOS Permit Training AI on User Content Without Opt-Out

282 points by andrew_ 3y ago

jsnell 3y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37034145 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37034145
- hendler 3y ago
  and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037507
- andrew_ 3y ago
  ah thanks. the news just hit my circles today.
hendler 3y ago
Zoom's general response includes 10.1 and 10.4 https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ See COO response too other HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37029700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37029700
- LegitShady 3y ago
  zoom lied about end to end encryption for years and years. I wouldn't trust them no matter what response they give.
lolinder 3y ago
Not only is this a dupe, it's now outdated. Zoom re-updated their ToS to clarify that they will not do this. Current discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037196 The added clause: > Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent. EDIT: Since a bunch of people are chiming in here to respond to me about the new clause, I wanted to clarify my intent: please move the conversation to the submission of Zoom's response! This thread should be removed simply on the grounds of being a duplicate of the huge thread from yesterday, doubly so since the information in the article is now outdated.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  "sorry we got caught"
  - lolinder 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - freejazz 3y ago
      The ToS was phrased perfectly clearly - it was just an incredibly disagreeable clause that they inserted. Why play obtuse, like the ToS wasn't drafted by Zoom's legal dept?
      - lolinder 3y ago
        The ToS was phrased to cover their ass as much as possible, because that's Legal's job. I don't blame them for failing to take into account internet lynch mobs coming after them four months after they released the new terms [0]. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.z...
        freejazz 3y ago
        >The ToS was phrased to cover their ass as much as possible, because that's Legal's job. Right. Which is why it explicitly allowed what I described. What does it have to do with future mobs? It either grants them the right, or it doesn't - in this case it did.
- drhagen 3y ago
  > Zoom re-updated their ToS to clarify that they will not do this. To be more specific, they clarified that they absolutely _will_ do this. But they provide an opt-out. That "without your consent" is carrying a lot of weight in the TOS. From the blog post: > When you choose to enable Zoom IQ Meeting Summary or Zoom IQ Team Chat Compose, you will also be presented with a transparent consent process for training our AI models using your customer content. Your content is used solely to improve the performance and accuracy of these AI services.
j45 3y ago
I’d like to think HN had a small role in making Zoom blink and “clarify” that open ended rights to do what they wanted somehow isn’t what the original text said or intended. But the reality is this wording could come back in another form. Lawyers will lawyer. Still the world gets better at learning to read terms of services together and that’s magical.
- dylan604 3y ago
  > Still the world gets better at learning to read terms of services together and that’s magical. Does it though? I think it's more along the lines that the amount of reading of ToS is the same/similar as it has always been. It's just now that when someone does actually read them, there's a bigger bullhorn to shout from. It's only then that the internet gets stirred up. It's not like you or I read this ToS to catch this.
  - j45 3y ago
    Depending on the use case the tos gets read in my world, but in no way the majority of the time or as often as it should be. Your comment though made me realize that LLMs can probably help with understanding ToS’
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I really feel like this is one of those responses where the person wants to sound cool even though they really aren't. To me, it reads "I have a girlfriend, but she lives in Canada" kind of comment. Maybe you do read the ToS "depending on the use case", but that's such a huge caveat. I have been known to misread things before, like random ToS
davidpaulyoung 3y ago
People who trust Zoom, also trust Facebook. Jitsi runs highly optimized on a number of great platforms such as https://federated.computer https://federated.computer.
- neogodless 3y ago
  As a complete Jitsi newb, I went here, and I'm confused. https://jitsi.org/downloads/ https://jitsi.org/downloads/ > If you want to run Jitsi on your own desktop or server, you can download Jitsi Desktop, Jitsi Meet and all Jitsi related projects below. But I don't see any download links for "Desktop" or "Meet". Is the text on the page just outdated? Given some more web digging, it seems like that page should (but doesn't) link to the real download page: https://desktop.jitsi.org/Main/Download.html https://desktop.jitsi.org/Main/Download.html
sean_hogle 3y ago
In sec. 10.4, Zoom says "Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent." Customer Content is defined in 10.1 broadly. But sec. 10.2 clearly states that "Customer Content" does NOT include "Service Generated Data." Service Generated Data = "any telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and similar content or data that Zoom collects or generates in connection with your or your End Users’ use of the Services ...." (sec. 10.2). Zoom is allowed to use Service Generated Data for any purpose (sec. 10.2). This "clarification" does nothing meaningful to assuage the serious data privacy concerns posed by Zoom's use of captured user video content.
- ceph_ 3y ago
  By accepting the ToS you consent to whatever they want you to.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    If I'm a guest in a mandated call, what am I consenting to?
rpgbr 3y ago
I'm not a lawyer or anything related, but this reading of Zoom's terms of use seems really off. They could've done a better job explaining their AI stuff/data usage, but the reality (after reading the ToS) is far from what this blog post suggests.
ForHackernews 3y ago
I mean... everyone else is training their AIs on every scrap of data they can scrounge up from anyplace they can find it, so why would Zoom be different? Are people surprised by this?
user6723 3y ago
Asking anyone in a commercial context to submit to a video conference where their biometric likeness will be collected and analyzed deserves two years in jail. There is enough open source and working crypto out there to have an encrypted call. People with dignity should not have to be tyrannized by utter stupidity, at least not on this issue.
akomtu 3y ago
Speaking plainly, Zoom steals user data to train its AI models and to sell that data to whoever pays. Imagine a regular business run like this: you enter a coffee shop and by pushing the door you agree to terms of service (250 pages of text available upon request) that allow the shop to record your conversations, take photos of you, and sell that data to anyone.
nshatzkin 3y ago
[flagged]
nshatzkin 3y ago
[flagged]

282 points by andrew_ 3y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37021160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37034145 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37034145

hendler 3y ago
and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037507
andrew_ 3y ago
ah thanks. the news just hit my circles today.

hendler 3y ago

Zoom's general response includes 10.1 and 10.4 https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ https://blog.zoom.us/zooms-term-service-ai/ See COO response too other HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37029700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37029700

LegitShady 3y ago
zoom lied about end to end encryption for years and years. I wouldn't trust them no matter what response they give.

lolinder 3y ago

Not only is this a dupe, it's now outdated. Zoom re-updated their ToS to clarify that they will not do this. Current discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37037196 The added clause: > Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent. EDIT: Since a bunch of people are chiming in here to respond to me about the new clause, I wanted to clarify my intent: please move the conversation to the submission of Zoom's response! This thread should be removed simply on the grounds of being a duplicate of the huge thread from yesterday, doubly so since the information in the article is now outdated.

hackernewds 3y ago
"sorry we got caught"
- lolinder 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - freejazz 3y ago
    The ToS was phrased perfectly clearly - it was just an incredibly disagreeable clause that they inserted. Why play obtuse, like the ToS wasn't drafted by Zoom's legal dept?
    - lolinder 3y ago
      The ToS was phrased to cover their ass as much as possible, because that's Legal's job. I don't blame them for failing to take into account internet lynch mobs coming after them four months after they released the new terms [0]. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.zoom.us/en/terms/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230401045359/https://explore.z...
      - freejazz 3y ago
        >The ToS was phrased to cover their ass as much as possible, because that's Legal's job. Right. Which is why it explicitly allowed what I described. What does it have to do with future mobs? It either grants them the right, or it doesn't - in this case it did.
drhagen 3y ago
> Zoom re-updated their ToS to clarify that they will not do this. To be more specific, they clarified that they absolutely _will_ do this. But they provide an opt-out. That "without your consent" is carrying a lot of weight in the TOS. From the blog post: > When you choose to enable Zoom IQ Meeting Summary or Zoom IQ Team Chat Compose, you will also be presented with a transparent consent process for training our AI models using your customer content. Your content is used solely to improve the performance and accuracy of these AI services.

j45 3y ago

I’d like to think HN had a small role in making Zoom blink and “clarify” that open ended rights to do what they wanted somehow isn’t what the original text said or intended. But the reality is this wording could come back in another form. Lawyers will lawyer. Still the world gets better at learning to read terms of services together and that’s magical.

dylan604 3y ago
> Still the world gets better at learning to read terms of services together and that’s magical. Does it though? I think it's more along the lines that the amount of reading of ToS is the same/similar as it has always been. It's just now that when someone does actually read them, there's a bigger bullhorn to shout from. It's only then that the internet gets stirred up. It's not like you or I read this ToS to catch this.
- j45 3y ago
  Depending on the use case the tos gets read in my world, but in no way the majority of the time or as often as it should be. Your comment though made me realize that LLMs can probably help with understanding ToS’
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I really feel like this is one of those responses where the person wants to sound cool even though they really aren't. To me, it reads "I have a girlfriend, but she lives in Canada" kind of comment. Maybe you do read the ToS "depending on the use case", but that's such a huge caveat. I have been known to misread things before, like random ToS

davidpaulyoung 3y ago

People who trust Zoom, also trust Facebook. Jitsi runs highly optimized on a number of great platforms such as https://federated.computer https://federated.computer.

neogodless 3y ago
As a complete Jitsi newb, I went here, and I'm confused. https://jitsi.org/downloads/ https://jitsi.org/downloads/ > If you want to run Jitsi on your own desktop or server, you can download Jitsi Desktop, Jitsi Meet and all Jitsi related projects below. But I don't see any download links for "Desktop" or "Meet". Is the text on the page just outdated? Given some more web digging, it seems like that page should (but doesn't) link to the real download page: https://desktop.jitsi.org/Main/Download.html https://desktop.jitsi.org/Main/Download.html

sean_hogle 3y ago

In sec. 10.4, Zoom says "Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent." Customer Content is defined in 10.1 broadly. But sec. 10.2 clearly states that "Customer Content" does NOT include "Service Generated Data." Service Generated Data = "any telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and similar content or data that Zoom collects or generates in connection with your or your End Users’ use of the Services ...." (sec. 10.2). Zoom is allowed to use Service Generated Data for any purpose (sec. 10.2). This "clarification" does nothing meaningful to assuage the serious data privacy concerns posed by Zoom's use of captured user video content.

ceph_ 3y ago
By accepting the ToS you consent to whatever they want you to.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  If I'm a guest in a mandated call, what am I consenting to?

rpgbr 3y ago

I'm not a lawyer or anything related, but this reading of Zoom's terms of use seems really off. They could've done a better job explaining their AI stuff/data usage, but the reality (after reading the ToS) is far from what this blog post suggests.

ForHackernews 3y ago

I mean... everyone else is training their AIs on every scrap of data they can scrounge up from anyplace they can find it, so why would Zoom be different? Are people surprised by this?

user6723 3y ago

Asking anyone in a commercial context to submit to a video conference where their biometric likeness will be collected and analyzed deserves two years in jail. There is enough open source and working crypto out there to have an encrypted call. People with dignity should not have to be tyrannized by utter stupidity, at least not on this issue.

akomtu 3y ago

Speaking plainly, Zoom steals user data to train its AI models and to sell that data to whoever pays. Imagine a regular business run like this: you enter a coffee shop and by pushing the door you agree to terms of service (250 pages of text available upon request) that allow the shop to record your conversations, take photos of you, and sell that data to anyone.

nshatzkin 3y ago

[flagged]

nshatzkin 3y ago

[flagged]